klm617
Posts: 2553
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed May 16, 2018 10:49 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
You're assuming Delta wants to expand capacity on DTW-LHR.
Delta, on the other hand, thinks DTW-AMS (connecting its hub to a partner hub with enormous feed throughout Europe) is a better choice.
Past records of service show that DTW-AMS is consistently a bigger route for Delta, so they can't be faulted for upgauging there.


But they already have the DTW-AMS route locked up and from what everyone says here they can't seem to work DTW-LHR so why not put their best product on the route to attract new customers and see what happens

Why add more seats when you can't fill the ones you already have?
klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Load factors on DL DTW-LHR are pretty mediocre as they are, I know the data has been posted here but they are pretty lackluster, and range from ~60% in winter to mid-80% in peak summer. They don't need more capacity on DTW-AMS runs at consistently higher load factors and can absorb a lot of incremental capacity, particularly during peak summer.


So here is my question if DTW-LHR has so many empty seats why are so many GRR passengers routed over ATL when there are plenty of empty seats on the DTW-LHR route.

Are they routing so many GRR passengers to London via ATL? Are there that many GRR-LHR pax to begin with? Do you have any facts on your side at all?



Buy running your latest and greatest product out there and running it up the flagpole. LHR is a major VS/DL station so why not put your best out there to attract more customers. The consensus on here is that they are running a lot of GRR connections over ATL rather than DTW if Detroit is going out less than full why are the folks from GRR flying to ATL to get to LHR rather than Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed May 16, 2018 11:19 pm

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:

But they already have the DTW-AMS route locked up and from what everyone says here they can't seem to work DTW-LHR so why not put their best product on the route to attract new customers and see what happens

Why add more seats when you can't fill the ones you already have?
klm617 wrote:

So here is my question if DTW-LHR has so many empty seats why are so many GRR passengers routed over ATL when there are plenty of empty seats on the DTW-LHR route.

Are they routing so many GRR passengers to London via ATL? Are there that many GRR-LHR pax to begin with? Do you have any facts on your side at all?



Buy running your latest and greatest product out there and running it up the flagpole. LHR is a major VS/DL station so why not put your best out there to attract more customers. The consensus on here is that they are running a lot of GRR connections over ATL rather than DTW if Detroit is going out less than full why are the folks from GRR flying to ATL to get to LHR rather than Detroit.

1. Clearly LHR isn't such a major station ex-DTW if they can't fill the flights they have. Better use the flagship product on key markets.
2. There is no consensus about this that I see. There's you making unsubstantiated claims. Please either bring out evidence or keep mum.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
gnakra80
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed May 16, 2018 11:26 pm

How do you know this?

(first time poster, but i had to question where KLM gets all this doomsday information)


klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
You're assuming Delta wants to expand capacity on DTW-LHR.
Delta, on the other hand, thinks DTW-AMS (connecting its hub to a partner hub with enormous feed throughout Europe) is a better choice.
Past records of service show that DTW-AMS is consistently a bigger route for Delta, so they can't be faulted for upgauging there.

Load factors on DL DTW-LHR are pretty mediocre as they are, I know the data has been posted here but they are pretty lackluster, and range from ~60% in winter to mid-80% in peak summer. They don't need more capacity on DTW-AMS runs at consistently higher load factors and can absorb a lot of incremental capacity, particularly during peak summer.


So here is my question if DTW-LHR has so many empty seats why are so many GRR passengers routed over ATL when there are plenty of empty seats on the DTW-LHR route.
 
winginit
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed May 16, 2018 11:36 pm

klm617 wrote:
So here is my question if DTW-LHR has so many empty seats why are so many GRR passengers routed over ATL when there are plenty of empty seats on the DTW-LHR route.


Please reference your data that supports your claim that 'so many GRR passengers' are being routed over ATL. A comparison of those figures versus those being routed over DTW would be helpful as well. MIDT should do the trick.

klm617 wrote:
But they already have the DTW-AMS route locked up and from what everyone says here they can't seem to work DTW-LHR so why not put their best product on the route to attract new customers and see what happens


Because increasing capacity is not how you bolster a struggling load factor even with a new product. Commercial Aviation 101

klm617 wrote:
The consensus on here is that they are running a lot of GRR connections over ATL rather than DTW


That's the consensus according to who? You? Per forum rules, please bring to light the data that backs your claim that substantial volumes of passengers travelling between GRR and LHR are being flown over ATL as opposed to DTW or mark your claim as baseless speculation.

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
1. Clearly LHR isn't such a major station ex-DTW if they can't fill the flights they have. Better use the flagship product on key markets.
2. There is no consensus about this that I see. There's you making unsubstantiated claims. Please either bring out evidence or keep mum.


:checkmark:
 
MastaHanky
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 7:02 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 12:29 am

klm617 wrote:
Buy running your latest and greatest product out there and running it up the flagpole. LHR is a major VS/DL station so why not put your best out there to attract more customers. The consensus on here is that they are running a lot of GRR connections over ATL rather than DTW if Detroit is going out less than full why are the folks from GRR flying to ATL to get to LHR rather than Detroit.


Who are these customers that are magically going to appear if Delta puts their best product on DTW-LHR? Are there thousands of people saying, "I'd sure love to fly to London, but the current lie-flat business class seat in the 763 isn't good enough for me?"

BTW, DL runs about 30% more international connections from GRR over Detroit than it does Atlanta - not that the <20 people a day who fly GRR-LHR will impact that much.
 
winginit
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 3:43 am

MastaHanky wrote:
BTW, DL runs about 30% more international connections from GRR over Detroit than it does Atlanta - not that the <20 people a day who fly GRR-LHR will impact that much.


There's the stat that I was looking for thank you. Is that MIDT? Not that klm will put any merit or thought into, you know, facts or data that he's upset he doesn't have access to.
 
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flymco753
Posts: 2354
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 3:50 pm

I told someone at my university about the new Delhi flights coming on WOW, and after showing him the prices and how much cheaper it would cost him and his family will be going for 2 weeks in January. He said something about taking gifts with him?
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

*Future Route Network Planner*
 
alfa164
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu May 17, 2018 4:15 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I told someone at my university about the new Delhi flights coming on WOW, and after showing him the prices and how much cheaper it would cost him and his family will be going for 2 weeks in January. He said something about taking gifts with him?


Every gift he takes will probably cost him about $50.00 extra in fees... ;)
 
seanpmassey
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 3:22 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat May 19, 2018 3:44 am

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
LIT has been an eyesore for a while, the market simply isn't there. Little Rock isn't the kind of place where I would want to go visit to be completely honest. I still think SRQ is on the way out because it seems like Delta's strategy with southern seasonal routes is to cut them and send them through Atlanta with NYC being the only exception. I feel like Allegiant is very close to flying into DTW for a few reasons, because they know they can capture VPS, SRQ and JAX traffic. If they are successful with PIT, IND, CVG-SRQ then it would be potential for DTW. G4 could capture more and maximize potential from DTW to these markets as opposed to TOL or FNT. I don't expect G4 to add the typical LAS, PIE, PGD, FLL markets. SFB would be the only one because it could draw traffic from areas north of the city, particularly Daytona Beach, a route DL obviously won't add. I still see SFB a far opportunity because NK and F9 have a choke hold on the ULCC market. You're probably right about SJU, and seeing the recent activity happening in the streets of San Juan makes it worse. I just wonder why they would keep going from MSP-SJU.

There's a good reason for Delta to not serve as many Florida and Deep South destinations from its Midwest hubs. DTW and MSP are too far north for Coasts-Florida flows, whereas ATL is well-positioned to take pax from everywhere to Florida. So the routes DL is flying from DTW to Florida must be justified on O&D.



And that makes complete sense except the reverse is not true for ATL. Passengers are routed from the upper Midwest through ATL on many out of the way routings. With that rule of thumb ATL should not be liked places like ATW, MSN and the like but yet they still are.


ATW is one of my two home airports. So I'm curious about this statement - what out-of-the-way routings is Delta forcing me through ATL on? And how many DTW frequencies have been cut to support ATL?

The fact is that Delta does not route many Upper Midwest passengers through ATL. If I look at airports in Wisconsin and Michigan, most places that Delta serves primarily offer service to MSP and DTW. If they offer ATL service, it's usually one or two flights - an early morning and a mid-late afternoon departure.

Annecdotally, I only choose an ATW->ATL routing when I'm heading somewhere in the south or southeast for work as ATL tends to have better options than DTW for North Carolina. I think the only time I purposely chose to go through ATL over DTW was because I wanted the extra miles for status purposes.

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