Jomar777
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:30 am

This tie up was long in the cards and I remember having commented on this during the initial speculation on Airbus JV with BBD. It is natural and it is a polarization bound to happen as the two biggest worldwide manufacturers did not have anything on that segment to compete with. BBD was in the ropes and in need of rescue on their commercial aircraft division and Airbus will do just that. Will they buy the rest - it depends on the success of the program which, IMHO will happen. Price - very little since they will now factor their input and work on the progress of the project and might virtually pay for the remaining 49.99% with the profits whey will make on the JV.
Boeing and EMB was just natural occurrence since Boeing needed to contra Airbus and already works in partnership with EMB.
The Commercial Division of EMB came about after the BR Government privatized EMB. EMB until then was a Government Entity where profitability was not the paramount but their research and partnership with the Brazilian Airforce was. The Executive Division was successful but just an extra. When EMB was privatized, profitability became a must and they (very successfully indeed) came up with the Commercial Division which generates a good profit.
By creating the JV, The main Government priority will be satisfied which is to keep the military side under its belt and, as an extra, the executive division. The BR Government will certainly endorse and approve this option which will bring EMB back to the old EMB of the past concentrating on the Military side with the commercial moving apart on a totally different entity where they will still milk it some profit. EMB was concentrating a lot of efforts on the Commercial side for their taste.
Subsequently, it does not matter any longer whether 3-2 or 2-2 is the best. Because of the tie up, BOTH E2 and C-Series will sell well and Mitsubishi and Sukhoi will be the biggest losers.
I can even say that JetBlue may now easily go to C-Series (it is a big Airbus customer) without as much damage to EMB as initially could happen on the grounds that other Boeing Customers will go E2. This is a Fact.
In a way, a very mooted and low discussed American Airlines order of recent shows the way forward - it has ordered 15 E175s and 15 CRJs splitting the order between EMB and BBD (this one is not even on the JV with Airbus).
EMB and BBD will lose some clients but will win others. Orders will be big and they will have to work hard to provide them. But the profit will end up on A and B.

Just another note - on the KC390 - this is a Brazilian Military Project - It is NOT expected to make profit but to supply the Brazilian Air Force mainly and whoever want to buy it. As much as the Tax Payers in the UK (myself included) effectively paid (and are paying ) for the Queen Elizabeth II Aircraft Carrier and all its "trimmings" (including the Boeing Aircrafts which will operate from it...), the Brazilian Tax Payer (myself again included) will pay for the KC 390. Just natural military spending. If you do not agree and are European, please hand the notice to the US which is bargaining to reduce the NATO assistance given to all Countries which do not contribute 2% of their GDP in Defence.
If you are American - look how much do you pay for the Defence of your Country as a reference.
 
c933103
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:04 pm

osupoke07 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Boeing and Airbus are following Microsoft lead, if you can't invent it buy it. Both realize that their A318 / 737-6 do not make it so use your financial strength to get a/c. I agree that if the MRJ had not been delayed they may have been a candidate, but I don't think they would have given up 80%.


Agreed. Financially, it makes a ton of sense. Why spend $8-$12 billion developing something that has to compete against a mature E2 and C-series when you can spend $4-$5 billion to just buy the E2. Let that program take the 150 and under market and focus the B737-8/9/10 and future NSA on the 150-220 seat market.

As I posted in another thread about MRJ, people in Mitsubishi were also looking for cooperation with Boeing in the future if this Embraer deal weren't going to get through as it would have give the project the best future prospect with possibility of further growth to bridge the gap below NSA. However now that the Embraer deal is coming into fruition, it's unlikely for Boeing to have any future thought on MRJ and thus MRJ's future look grief. And that 190E2s could also compete with MRJ95 which would put MRJ under even greater market pressure with Boeing's name on board. The only relatively good news is probably that the partnership does not include E170s and thus the sub-100 seats market still haven't changes too much
 
c933103
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
People can shout and blame a company filing complaints or a President, but fact of the matter is the commercial aviation market moved away from the smaller space and is all in in the +150 seat space. The market is driving reality there. Established airlines costs are going up and they need more people on each flight. New airlines are packing seats in to compete. The airline business is capital intensive and very difficult to enter. This consolidation is consolidation purely based on what the airlines are purchasing. Not some trade complain. Not a President. But, the market reality.

Win for Boeing, as it was for Airbus. Ultimately, it will be a win for the airlines.


It's noted elsewhere that E145 and CR2 production has ended. The 50-seat-and-less space is substantially vacated. 318s and 736s died. We're likely going to see that Max 7s and 319Neos are marginal. At least in the U.S. market, anyway. Pilot compensation is different elsewhere and may tolerate smaller frames. Canada (and the U.S., through) may support some non-market solutions.

In reality anyone who want a 50 seats or less plane would buy a ATR42 nowadays. If one is not buying ATR42 because it's not a jet, then it shows that they aren't actually needing a plane with the size if they have the luxury to avoid a particular engine type
 
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N328KF
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:16 pm

c933103 wrote:
As I posted in another thread about MRJ, people in Mitsubishi were also looking for cooperation with Boeing in the future if this Embraer deal weren't going to get through as it would have give the project the best future prospect with possibility of further growth to bridge the gap below NSA. However now that the Embraer deal is coming into fruition, it's unlikely for Boeing to have any future thought on MRJ and thus MRJ's future look grief. And that 190E2s could also compete with MRJ95 which would put MRJ under even greater market pressure with Boeing's name on board. The only relatively good news is probably that the partnership does not include E170s and thus the sub-100 seats market still haven't changes too much


This is all quite ironic as the MRJ has quite a bit of Boeing DNA. Boeing participated in the MRJ project until the 787 went south, and they had to back out. I believe they were even to handle parts distribution for Mitsubishi.
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sunking737
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:09 pm

Now that Jetblue has bought the "New" A220, so it will have an all airbus fleet, does anyone think that Boeing will be able to sell their "NEW" baby Boeing to their current customer base?? Alaska, Southwest, etc???
I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
Ruscoe
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:46 pm

My take on this is that, looking at the bigger picture, Boeing is moving the current 737 segment up to more seats and hence needs another smaller aircraft.
The C series does not quite fit their vision, and I believe, if a deal with Embraer is finalised, it won’t be too long before we see a replacement for the jungle jets,with a joint design. It also gets Boeing a production centre outside the USA without all the political and industrial ramifications.

Ruscoe
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:33 am

sunking737 wrote:
Now that Jetblue has bought the "New" A220, so it will have an all airbus fleet, does anyone think that Boeing will be able to sell their "NEW" baby Boeing to their current customer base?? Alaska, Southwest, etc???


If we go down the list of some major 737 ops:

Southwest is unlikely to order anything but a 737 or possibly larger
Alaska already basically has E1s since they own Horizon... so maybe
United... probably the best target for Boeing for now, they still need something in the size range but they also have no real attachment to the E-series overall.
Ryanair... same story as Southwest
Westjet, maybe but not soon
American is probably a no for now, A319s fill the need for them for a little while
Delta is an obvious no
KLM is the most likely candidate in Europe, 737 fleet and E-series in the family

So my money is on a strong push at United and KLM for now
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:23 am

Boeing is a solid year out from having much ability to push the E2, iinm. It’s going to be a rough year at Boeing as they must sit on the sidelines while Airbus pushes the A220 full throttle.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
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N328KF
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:31 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Boeing is a solid year out from having much ability to push the E2, iinm. It’s going to be a rough year at Boeing as they must sit on the sidelines while Airbus pushes the A220 full throttle.


Customers know what is happening. Bet you dollars to donuts the Boeing acquisition gets written into E2 purchase contracts.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:40 am

N328KF wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Boeing is a solid year out from having much ability to push the E2, iinm. It’s going to be a rough year at Boeing as they must sit on the sidelines while Airbus pushes the A220 full throttle.


Customers know what is happening. Bet you dollars to donuts the Boeing acquisition gets written into E2 purchase contracts.


Perhaps, but that’s not something Boeing will be involved with.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
ytz
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:04 am

Waterbomber wrote:
geoshina wrote:
brindabella wrote:

Well EMB certainly got a far, far better deal than the poor taxpayers of Quebec & the Canadian Commonwealth.

Billions of taxpayers dollars to bale Bombardier out then they got a princely $1 back for it.

But it's OK, they can still go around blaming rotten Boeing, the horrible Americans and especially that unspeakable Trump.

Absolutely nothing to do with a rotten project choice and pitiful execution.

Spare me.

:sarcastic:

cheers


I have to agree with you.
And there are really some delusional people here, like the Waterbomber gentleman.
Just some questions to put in perspective:

Was Embraer that almost went out of business because of the C series? I don't think so.
Was Embraer sucking taxpayer money in order to live? I don't think so.
Was Embrear on the brink of bankruptcy? I also don't think so.

Both C series and E2 are great planes and it would be great to stop this "mine is bigger than yours" nonsense.


Yes my friend I'm delusional and so are you.
Embraer sucked big taxpayer money with the KC390, an airplane that no one was asking for and no one except the Brazilian taxpayer has ordered. That came out of blue at the same time as the E2 project was being developped.
That's as coincidental as having hair growing on one's head instead of in the eyes.


They've learned well from the Americans. You launder money to commercial aviation through the defence sector. Stupid Canadians never learned the lesson. At least the Europeans are slowly wisening up to this too.
 
ytz
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:18 am

Ruscoe wrote:
My take on this is that, looking at the bigger picture, Boeing is moving the current 737 segment up to more seats and hence needs another smaller aircraft.
The C series does not quite fit their vision, and I believe, if a deal with Embraer is finalised, it won’t be too long before we see a replacement for the jungle jets,with a joint design. It also gets Boeing a production centre outside the USA without all the political and industrial ramifications.

Ruscoe


This. Embraer has a lot more to offer than the actual jets they are selling. Ever since they upsized the Max 7, they've had a gap below 140 seats. E2 fills it well. Scope clause might hold them back a bit, but the US is not the world. Boeing just bought themselves time and resources for both the NMA and the NSA. And I think Embraer's engineers are going to get a larger canvas to paint on when they get a huge chunk of the NSA.
 
c933103
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:18 pm

https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASL7B525PL7BOIPE01N.html
Mitsubishi aircraft president commented on the Boeing and Embraer JV, saying that it have a possibility to drastically widen Boeing's product lineup, and think the two companies will probably think about their directions in the future, which they(Mitsubishi/Himself) will be watching the situation with care.

Also, he said that he was told by Boeing that their existing relationship will not change
 
khinstorff
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:00 pm

Will Boeing be able to rebrand the E2, similar to Airbus renaming the C-Series?
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:10 pm

khinstorff wrote:
Will Boeing be able to rebrand the E2, similar to Airbus renaming the C-Series?

Boeing has said at Farnborough that they want to continue the Embraer brand, so that would mean no rebrand.

But as majority shareholder of the new company created by the 2 companies it probably means that Boeing could if they want to change it as they want. But I can also imagine that the name of the new company and the planes is something where the Brazilian government wants to have some influence before they approve this deal.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:56 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
khinstorff wrote:
Will Boeing be able to rebrand the E2, similar to Airbus renaming the C-Series?

Boeing has said at Farnborough that they want to continue the Embraer brand, so that would mean no rebrand.

But as majority shareholder of the new company created by the 2 companies it probably means that Boeing could if they want to change it as they want. But I can also imagine that the name of the new company and the planes is something where the Brazilian government wants to have some influence before they approve this deal.


I'd imagine Boeing will be happy to let Embraer be Embraer with the existing products, but the Boeing name would go on any joint projects (i.e. NSA).
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:24 pm

If you think brazilian governmen funded he E2 program through out the kc390 you really dont know anything about Brazil lol
 
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keesje
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Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:58 pm

Image
https://money.cnn.com

A further step has been taken: a compromise where Boeing gets 80% of the Embraer Civil business while Embraer holds a Defense majority stake.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-and-embraer-agree-on-terms-for-planned-tie-up-454476/

The E190E2-195E2 adds capability in the smaller NB segment for airlines.

The defense site of things plays a big role too. Embraer will own a 51 percent stake in the KC-390 joint venture, with Boeing owning the rest. https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/12/17/boeing-embraer-agree-to-kc-390-joint-venture/ I think LM better watches it's C-130 line now.

Close cooperation / investment of Airbus with Embraer competitor BBD no doubt sped up decision making with both Boeing and Embraer. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410807
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
B764er
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:19 pm

Wow, so it finally happened! Embraer was playing coy with Boeing for a moment last week. I had even read somewhere that their deal was off. But now that it has happened, I wonder if Boeing will rename the EMB jet.
 
TheKennady2
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:32 pm

More consolidation by aircraft manufactuers, can this really be a good thing? Is it healthy for such a small amount of companies to control so much of the commercial aviation sector?
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:42 pm

B764er wrote:
I wonder if Boeing will rename the EMB jet.


Unlike Bombardier's product, and considering the launch date of the E1 family (officially at the 1999 Paris Air Show), the E-Jet family's list of worldwide stable operators is extensive (more than 1,500 aircraft produced and delivered to date time).

From a marketing point of view it is a consolidated name.

Source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2018/07/17/boe ... rnborough/

Excerpts:

"When asked about the E2 series brand, Muilenburg was direct: no name change is projected at this time.

“Embraer brand is strong, and E2 Series is a good name. We’re beyond a simple branding change,” Muilenburg said in a blunt and forthcoming statement that seemed to have a single receiver, Airbus, and was in response to the CSeries renaming to A220."


Another very important point of the agreement:

"After the transaction is completed, the commercial aviation joint venture will be led by a team of executives based in Brazil, including a president and CEO.
Boeing will have operational and management control of the new company, which will respond directly to Dennis Muilenburg, President and CEO of Boeing.
Embraer will have decision-making power for some strategic issues, such as the transfer of Brazilian operations."
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:43 pm

Image

This is a major step toward bringing together two world-class teams and highly complementary product and service portfolios. We expect our proposed partnership will generate significant value for our customers, team members and shareholders.


https://twitter.com/BoeingCEO

Image

Note there isn't the flagship E195-E2 in the picture.
Last edited by keesje on Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:55 pm

Image
 
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neutrino
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:00 pm

B764er wrote:
I wonder if Boeing will rename the EMB jet.

797? :bouncy:
This will clear the way for the upcoming cleansheets NMA/MOM//NSA to kick off the follow-up to the 7-7 series, be it 8X8 or 7XX7 or whatever. ;)
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capitalflyer
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:04 pm

And so is born the 7R7 family: 7R7-7, 7R7-9, and 7R7-95 (A la MD95).
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:08 pm

The E195-E2 is significant bigger / more capable than the E195 and E190E2 as the picture shows. And it recently got a range boost. It is eating into the 737-7 segment.

Image

The 737-7 is on life support after #1 and #2 launching 737-7 customers Southwest & Westjet deferred deliveries too far away to make anyone feel comfortable (except Embraer!). Boeing will never admit, but this seems a useful portfolio addition, like the A220 kind of provides a solution for low A319NEO sales / market requirements.

I expect a marketing re-positioning of E195E2 and 737-7 after this deal is closed. The E190-E2 iso the flagship E195- E2 together with the 737-7, in the official press releases, seems to have some communication strategy behind it..
Last edited by keesje on Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bricktop
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:12 pm

TheKennady2 wrote:
More consolidation by aircraft manufactuers, can this really be a good thing? Is it healthy for such a small amount of companies to control so much of the commercial aviation sector?

A valid question, but the Big Two could always give BBD and EMB a royal screw if it suited them. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
 
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redzeppelin
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:52 pm

Anybody else notice the "777-10" in that chart? :whistleblower:
It is positioned where the 787-10 should be, so probably just a typo.
 
IADCA
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:56 pm

redzeppelin wrote:
Anybody else notice the "777-10" in that chart? :whistleblower:
It is positioned where the 787-10 should be, so probably just a typo.


Almost certainly a typo. The image next to it is a 787-10, which is otherwise missing.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:31 pm

RIP Embraer as we know it....
Welcome, Emboeing.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:36 pm

Boeing boosts value for Embraer's commercial business to $5.26 billion


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKBN1OG179

Embraer will receive a net of $3 billion.

That's not bad.
 
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janders
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:41 pm

Purchase terms finalized:

Brazil’s Embraer SA said on Monday it has finalized terms of a proposed deal to sell 80 percent of its commercial aviation business to Boeing Co, now valuing the division at $5.26 billion.
The new valuation is 11 percent more than the $4.75 billion offered when the deal involving Embraer’s commercial division was originally announced in July.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKBN1OG179
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:09 pm

Good, I look forward to the partnership.

Also looking forward to Boeing sales team having more flexibility in selling a wider range of product capability.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:14 pm

Glad to see it went through, can’t wait to see what this partnership brings.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:43 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
RIP Embraer as we know it....
Welcome, Emboeing.



Boebraer?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:16 pm

This is huge. $3 billion of cash to Embraer is a great payday!

smokeybandit wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
RIP Embraer as we know it....
Welcome, Emboeing.



Boebraer?

:rotfl:

Boebraer has my vote.

Embraer is now a business jet vendor. Cest la vie. Accept and move forward.

Lightsaber
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:52 pm

lightsaber wrote:
This is huge. $3 billion of cash to Embraer is a great payday!
smokeybandit wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
RIP Embraer as we know it....
Welcome, Emboeing.

Boebraer?

:rotfl:
Boebraer has my vote.
Embraer is now a business jet vendor. Cest la vie. Accept and move forward.
Lightsaber

Embraer (business jets) will however enjoy better components/tooling etc pricings via Boeing's supply chain. (as per the agreement)

I hope BBD obtains the same from Airbus - for its CRJs & business jets. (BBD won't be competing with Airbus anymore since selling the Q400 program)
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:52 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Embraer is now a business jet vendor. Cest la vie. Accept and move forward.
Lightsaber


Pardon me for disagreeing.

20% of the JV is better than 100% of nothing.

We all know that Airbus has the interests of taking as many orders as possible in the market where Embraer operates in the commercial area.

According to one of the largest and most respected law firms in Brazil and representing Embraer in a lawsuit, the term used was "pre-bankrupt" (?!) to describe the future situation of the company.

Looking at the Company's Statement of Income, Assets and Liabilities, we have: Debt R$ 18 billion (US$ 4.5 bi), profit R$ 500 million (US$ 125 mi).

I would not say pre-bankruptcy, but with very low return margins today and with a tendency to be further compressed against Airbus.

And, according to Embraer's press release:

Source: https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... t-approval

Excerpt:

"Once the transaction has closed, the commercial aviation joint venture will be led by Brazil-based management, including a president and chief executive officer.
Boeing will have operational and management control of the new company, which will report directly to Dennis Muilenburg, Boeing chairman, president and chief executive officer.
Embraer will retain consent rights for certain strategic decisions, such as transfer of operations from Brazil."


There are other points already circulated internally to employees, but these will be published in due course to the press.
 
LegoAir
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:11 am

For me it is very strange a company that sells its main asset. Commercial aviation is what sustains Embraer. In addition, in the late years there was always a synergy between commercial, defense and executive aviation. I think this will be a great loss for Embraer.

Embraer executives have always been in favor of selling commercial aviation to Boeing. I never trust businessmen because they only think about their generous bonuses. Few have long-term vision.

It will be very strange if Embraer announces new sales in the coming weeks!
 
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caoimhin
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:33 am

LegoAir wrote:
For me it is very strange a company that sells its main asset. Commercial aviation is what sustains Embraer. In addition, in the late years there was always a synergy between commercial, defense and executive aviation. I think this will be a great loss for Embraer.

Embraer executives have always been in favor of selling commercial aviation to Boeing. I never trust businessmen because they only think about their generous bonuses. Few have long-term vision.

It will be very strange if Embraer announces new sales in the coming weeks!


And what of the fact that their principal competitor has sold their flagship product to Airbus? Viewed that way, it looks like a prudent business decision to avail themselves of Boeing’s resources, particularly where Embraer still retain a considerable interest in the commercial programme (albeit a minority).
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:37 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Embraer is now a business jet vendor. Cest la vie. Accept and move forward.
Lightsaber


Pardon me for disagreeing.

20% of the JV is better than 100% of nothing.

We all know that Airbus has the interests of taking as many orders as possible in the market where Embraer operates in the commercial area.

According to one of the largest and most respected law firms in Brazil and representing Embraer in a lawsuit, the term used was "pre-bankrupt" (?!) to describe the future situation of the company.

Looking at the Company's Statement of Income, Assets and Liabilities, we have: Debt R$ 18 billion (US$ 4.5 bi), profit R$ 500 million (US$ 125 mi).

I would not say pre-bankruptcy, but with very low return margins today and with a tendency to be further compressed against Airbus.

And, according to Embraer's press release:

Source: https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... t-approval

Excerpt:

"Once the transaction has closed, the commercial aviation joint venture will be led by Brazil-based management, including a president and chief executive officer.
Boeing will have operational and management control of the new company, which will report directly to Dennis Muilenburg, Boeing chairman, president and chief executive officer.
Embraer will retain consent rights for certain strategic decisions, such as transfer of operations from Brazil."


There are other points already circulated internally to employees, but these will be published in due course to the press.

Yes, they have 20% of the JV. As much as I'd like to see a rebound in Turboprops, I see only a 50-seater, with a new engine, as an option.

So for now Embraer is a business jet vendor. Or is there another product line they have control over I missed? Commercial is now controlled by Boeing.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
andreman
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:25 am

lightsaber wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Embraer is now a business jet vendor. Cest la vie. Accept and move forward.
Lightsaber


Pardon me for disagreeing.

20% of the JV is better than 100% of nothing.

We all know that Airbus has the interests of taking as many orders as possible in the market where Embraer operates in the commercial area.

According to one of the largest and most respected law firms in Brazil and representing Embraer in a lawsuit, the term used was "pre-bankrupt" (?!) to describe the future situation of the company.

Looking at the Company's Statement of Income, Assets and Liabilities, we have: Debt R$ 18 billion (US$ 4.5 bi), profit R$ 500 million (US$ 125 mi).

I would not say pre-bankruptcy, but with very low return margins today and with a tendency to be further compressed against Airbus.

And, according to Embraer's press release:

Source: https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... t-approval

Excerpt:

"Once the transaction has closed, the commercial aviation joint venture will be led by Brazil-based management, including a president and chief executive officer.
Boeing will have operational and management control of the new company, which will report directly to Dennis Muilenburg, Boeing chairman, president and chief executive officer.
Embraer will retain consent rights for certain strategic decisions, such as transfer of operations from Brazil."


There are other points already circulated internally to employees, but these will be published in due course to the press.

Yes, they have 20% of the JV. As much as I'd like to see a rebound in Turboprops, I see only a 50-seater, with a new engine, as an option.

So for now Embraer is a business jet vendor. Or is there another product line they have control over I missed? Commercial is now controlled by Boeing.

Lightsaber

There's Embraer Defense and Security as well: A29, the Grippen deal with SAAB and, of course, the KC-390.
Boeing will be involved with the KC, but Embraer will keep the program control.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing and Embraer approve terms of $4.2bn joint venture

Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:29 am

andreman wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:

Pardon me for disagreeing.

20% of the JV is better than 100% of nothing.

We all know that Airbus has the interests of taking as many orders as possible in the market where Embraer operates in the commercial area.

According to one of the largest and most respected law firms in Brazil and representing Embraer in a lawsuit, the term used was "pre-bankrupt" (?!) to describe the future situation of the company.

Looking at the Company's Statement of Income, Assets and Liabilities, we have: Debt R$ 18 billion (US$ 4.5 bi), profit R$ 500 million (US$ 125 mi).

I would not say pre-bankruptcy, but with very low return margins today and with a tendency to be further compressed against Airbus.

And, according to Embraer's press release:

Source: https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... t-approval

Excerpt:

"Once the transaction has closed, the commercial aviation joint venture will be led by Brazil-based management, including a president and chief executive officer.
Boeing will have operational and management control of the new company, which will report directly to Dennis Muilenburg, Boeing chairman, president and chief executive officer.
Embraer will retain consent rights for certain strategic decisions, such as transfer of operations from Brazil."


There are other points already circulated internally to employees, but these will be published in due course to the press.

Yes, they have 20% of the JV. As much as I'd like to see a rebound in Turboprops, I see only a 50-seater, with a new engine, as an option.

So for now Embraer is a business jet vendor. Or is there another product line they have control over I missed? Commercial is now controlled by Boeing.

Lightsaber

There's Embraer Defense and Security as well: A29, the Grippen deal with SAAB and, of course, the KC-390.
Boeing will be involved with the KC, but Embraer will keep the program control.

I'm happy to be corrected. Business Jets and defense; plust the 20% JV share.

IMHO it is better to focus. Sadly, both Embraer and Bombardier were punted from commercial aerospace. Cest la vie.

As an enthusiast, I mostly read civil aviation. So that will be what I mostly discuss here.

I hope the E2s find more buyers. No more excuses. By Paris there MUST be set of orders that create the economy of scale required in aviation.

For the A220, leasors had been looking for another US based airline (good credit who buy used). JetBlue and Moxie checked that box. Who will it be for the E2? Spirit has a campaign going. Delta has no loyalty to any vendor; despite discussion here, they talk with Boeing and a deal is possible. Both UA and AA have made noise about an E2-195 size.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:14 am

I think for Airbus being multinational with different bases, cultures and languages has been fact of live since day 1. As far as I can also towards the BBD A220 project this has been the approach, another country getting involved.

I wonder if the Boeing take-over will go the same way, or there will be a more old school Wallstreet "business like approach": reduce costs in Brasil only, take over management, "economies of scale", sell / hire back resources, etc. The latter risks the guys, that made "their" Embraer great, getting bypassed, preferring other employers within 2-3 yrs. Boeing better refocuses on that group now, away from the guys that got bonuses for pushing this take-over internally.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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janders
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:00 pm

Same judge freezes deal again :banghead:

https://news.yahoo.com/brazil-judge-fre ... 12613.html

The government says they will appeal and have the injunction lifted again.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8185
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:27 pm

janders wrote:
Same judge freezes deal again :banghead:

https://news.yahoo.com/brazil-judge-fre ... 12613.html

The government says they will appeal and have the injunction lifted again.


This, too, will get lifted. Brazil’s judicial system is quite dysfunctional and things like this happen often. They’re not showstoppers, however.

Frustrating, but don’t over think it.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
GmvAfcs
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:51 pm

Appeals court dropped this new injunction this morning! Good to go again!
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 23315
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:00 pm

New Brazilian government gives green light for partnership.


Embraer and Boeing Welcome Brazilian Government Approval of Strategic Partnership
https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2019-01-10 ... artnership
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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UPlog
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:21 pm

Glad to hear its moving forward again
 
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mercure1
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:34 pm

Does anyone have any clarity on what work responsibilities will go where now?
Will sales/marketing be out of Chicago. Who assume engineering/design responsibilities etc.??
mercure f-wtcc

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