bigjku
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:12 am

multimark wrote:
Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.


Oh horse crap.

BBD was on a bullet train to bankruptcy or an even larger government bailout complaint or no complaint.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:41 am

bigjku wrote:
multimark wrote:
Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.


Oh horse crap.

BBD was on a bullet train to bankruptcy or an even larger government bailout complaint or no complaint.

Actually what YOU are saying is horse crap.

Have you noticed that Airbus has not put a cent yet in the partnership / nor the gouvernment since the complaint.

And all the while BBD actually kept spending money in developing the Global 6500/7500 to get an even better product than promised.

And guess what, despite above spendings, (and no cash injections) BBD is not bankrupt yet. Even better, Alain Bellemare achieved an even better results in his turnaround plan than projected.

So without Airbus, the certified CSeries / blueprints / knowhow would probably have been sold to the Chinese - for more than a dollar.
But that would have meant the eventual dismantling of the Montreal CSeries "industrial cluster" (if I can call it like that).
Quebec and Ottawa just did not want that.

----------------------------------------

FWIW, with this new "Make America great again" and that "let's bully our closest allies into total submission" mentality, this strategic partnership with Airbus appears now essential ...
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:03 am, edited 8 times in total.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:43 am

Super80Fan wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

That, along with their E-Jet issues, along with Airbus now having a partnership with Bombardier.


Well, I think that you probably are able to hold a grudge longer than JetBlue is, but who knows?



Don't get smart with me. B6 was already internally favoring the C-Series, this recent development should drive them to fully commit to it.


Good Lord, I wasn't being smart. I was being honest. If you think that 20 years on that JetBlue would not do business with Boeing due to pricing from when Clinton was President, then ya, I think you might hold grudges longer than they do.

B6 internally favoring the CSeries is irrelevant to what I said. I have no doubt that they have a preference, but the terms of the deal will form the decision, not some latent dislike for Boeing. I happen to prefer the CSeries for them, but it's not based on which manufacturer I like more. It just makes good sense for them.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
bigjku
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:19 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
bigjku wrote:
multimark wrote:
Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.


Oh horse crap.

BBD was on a bullet train to bankruptcy or an even larger government bailout complaint or no complaint.

Actually what YOU are saying is horse crap.

Have noticed that Airbus have not put a cent yet in the partnership (nor the gouvernment) since the complaint. And BBD even kept spending money in developing the Global 6500/7500 to get an even better product than promised..

And guess what, despite the above spendings, they're not bankrupt now. Even better, Alain Bellemare achieved better results than expected in his turnaround plan.

So no, BBD would not be bankrupt today as you say.


In third quarter of 2017 their current ratio fell to basically 1 to 1 which is a huge indicator of problems.

The Airbus deal was announced in October. They were able to issue $1 billion in bonds at 7.5% interest (still a very high rate all things considered) in November which resolved their liquidity situation.

They were probably within $400 million of violating their financial covenants for their very necessary letter of credit and unsecured lines of credit facilities that require a minimum liquidity of around $1.4 billion. They had $1.8 billion cash on hand at the end of September and had burnt through $600 and $400 million in the previous two quarters.

Maybe they can issue the bonds and maybe they can’t. There is a reason they waited until they put an effective cap on the CS losses to issues the bonds. Confidence than BBD would have had the resources to carry through the CS rampup alone would have been pretty short I think. Capping the CS loss made the bonds a bet on future profitability of the rest of the enterprise which is fairly solid. Absent that you are loaning money into an open ended loss with no apparent end.

And that doesn’t even reflect the fact that they were in that bad of a position from a liquidity standpoint after a billion and then some from Quebec and Canada.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:35 am

That $1B bond was to replace another $1B bond that was maturing about a year later. So they replaced it early.

So again (since the complaint), no "new" cash infusions, and furthermore, considerable spendings for the development/certification of the much improved Global 6500s / 7500s.

And the turn around plan is currently exceeding expectations.

So since the complaint, definitely not heading toward bankruptcy, contrary to what you say.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:51 am

bigjku wrote:
multimark wrote:
Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.


Oh horse crap.

BBD was on a bullet train to bankruptcy or an even larger government bailout complaint or no complaint.

Bombardier as a Group at large is profitable. Only their commercial aviation division is registering loss for some time. Saying it is on a bullet train to bankruptcy is tad bit far fetched.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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zkojq
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:20 am

MCIRNO wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
Any guesses on a possible new name for the E-Jet family under Boeing ownership? :)

My guess, something similar to:
Embraer E2-175 ------> Boeing 717-700 MAX
Embraer E2-190 ------> Boeing 717-800 MAX
Embraer E2-195 ------> Boeing 717-900 MAX


How about a subset? Like a 606-5 = 175, 616-0 = 190, 616-5 = 195

Keep the 700s and higher numbers for larger jets


What's wrong with:

E2-175 ------> 7-175-7
E2-190 ------> 7-190-7
E2-195 ------> 7-195-7

It keeps the trend going. :lol:

Samrnpage wrote:
I dont like it - Airbus gets the Cseries, Boeing gets the E2? Collusion is rife here I am so certain of it. Airbus and Boeing have got whole airplane market from 80-500 seats, short, medium and long haul. They dont need to compete with each other now, both will make lots of $$$


I agree with you. I don't like the consolidation we are seeing, though in the Bombardier/Airbus case, it is doubtful that Bombardier would have survived otherwise. Long term, a duopoly isn't in the interests of the wider industry. As an Airbus shareholder though, I am grateful for Boeing driving Bombardier into Airbus's arms for such a low price. :lol:

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
FWIW, with this new "Make America great again" and that "let's bully our closest allies into total submission" mentality, this strategic partnership with Airbus appears now essential ...

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VC10er
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:44 am

I think I know the culture at Embraer although I admit it has been many years since I’ve worked with them and there has been a lot of changes at the top since. I don’t know anything about Boeing’s culture at all.
I worked very closely for years with Embraer on the development and launch of their line of Executive Jets. All brand strategy, naming and design. The team from Embraer who were selected to launch the Exacutive Jets was a multi-functional team, mostly marketing but even top engineers and sales force, etc.
All of them pulled from the mainline commercial jet division on a “skunkworks” style project to offer a complete range of Exec-Jets, from very light to heavy (heavy being the E-175/195 platform) the only “clean sheet” aircraft designed specifically for the range of Exec-Jets was the (yet to be named) Phenom 100 & 300.
Out of all the client teams I have worked closely with in 25/30 years, Embraer people were among the smartest and nicest people I’ve ever had the pleasure and honor of working alongside. Even though they were a multi functional group there was tremendous personal and professional respect, admiration and love. It was very “Brazilian” in culture so emotions ran high, but so did mutual respect and tremendous pride. Being accepted into the “family” was a great feeling and the sense of winning was infectious. The only time they ever seemed at all distracted was during a big “futeball” game, lol! That was the only thing they argued about.
They were not blinded by their immense pride however, they were self aware and very self critical about the design and capability of the aircraft they designed, and worked doggedly on designing and redesigning of wings and other critical components.
I am very curious about how this will effect my old friends, perhaps I’ll reach out to the few folks I stay in touch with.
While Brazilian culture is indeed different than American or German, their hard work and penchant for excellence should allow them to work well together. “Should”...I am making an assumption.
They did hold great reverence for both Boeing and Airbus, I often spoke to them about their opinions on A & B aircraft, at the time they were very impressed over the latest 77W. I cannot recall their opinion on any particular Airbus ac, but they certainly respected both the giants.
Last: Embraer had a number of American engineers. There was a sort of branch of MIT in São Jose dos Campos. So, many of their engineers (Brazilian or not) did graduate from MIT. The American sales team were very closely involved in development because the USA was such a big market for them. I recall a HUGE purchase from the US Air Force of one of their military surveillance jets using the E-145 platform. My point being: Embraer already understood America and American culture- heck they hired us, a NYC based branding agency and BMW Designworks in LA for the interiors. I bet it will go well after some initial bumps, especially if the Boeing people are open to learning about the unique workings of the Brazilian culture. My advice to Boeing is never to look down their noses at Brazil. A Brazilian can sniff out American or European snobbery in a nano second!
(And NEVER openly root for Argentina in a football match, lol!)
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:14 pm

Bottom line, just as with the C-Series, if Boeing is buying 80% they will be doing what Boeing want's done. At the end of the day the Brazilian and Canadian content / input into what Boeing and Airbus does or does not do will be marginalized, these are not transactions of / between equals.
Honestly, I have not reviewed the Brazilian economy in much detail to understand why they would sell 80%. Years were spent building an industry to offer an alternative to the major powers, if I were a Brazilian this would be akin to Airbus selling 80% to Boeing.
 
sccutler
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:26 pm

From my observations (admittedly, more focused on the business jet side of the business), Embraer has a culture of excellence, in design and in support, so I hope Boeing is wise enough to honor and leverage that culture, and the engineering expertise Embraer brings to bear.
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N328KF
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:16 pm

multimark wrote:
Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.


The complaint was bunk, but this outcome, in some manner, was probably in the cards somehow. And honestly, if Mitsubishi had done better with their MRJ, they might have been part of it too. They have been closely aligned with Boeing for some time.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
osupoke07
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:27 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
Any guesses on a possible new name for the E-Jet family under Boeing ownership? :)

My guess, something similar to:
Embraer E2-175 ------> Boeing 717-700 MAX
Embraer E2-190 ------> Boeing 717-800 MAX
Embraer E2-195 ------> Beoing 717-900 MAX


I like it. 717 can be the default numbering for any acquired program. I would prefer it start at 717-3 though.

E2-175 --> B717-3
E2-190 --> B717-4
E2-195 --> B717-5
MD82, MD83, MD88, B717, B732, B733, B735, B737, B738, B739, B752, B763, B77W, CR2, CR7, CR9, A320, A321
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:28 pm

Boeing and Airbus are following Microsoft lead, if you can't invent it buy it. Both realize that their A318 / 737-6 do not make it so use your financial strength to get a/c. I agree that if the MRJ had not been delayed they may have been a candidate, but I don't think they would have given up 80%.
 
osupoke07
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:32 pm

par13del wrote:
Boeing and Airbus are following Microsoft lead, if you can't invent it buy it. Both realize that their A318 / 737-6 do not make it so use your financial strength to get a/c. I agree that if the MRJ had not been delayed they may have been a candidate, but I don't think they would have given up 80%.


Agreed. Financially, it makes a ton of sense. Why spend $8-$12 billion developing something that has to compete against a mature E2 and C-series when you can spend $4-$5 billion to just buy the E2. Let that program take the 150 and under market and focus the B737-8/9/10 and future NSA on the 150-220 seat market.
MD82, MD83, MD88, B717, B732, B733, B735, B737, B738, B739, B752, B763, B77W, CR2, CR7, CR9, A320, A321
 
rbavfan
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:01 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Airbus USA can sell within the USA what ever it builds in the USA for whatever price it desires -- just as Boeing can.

I see. So Boeing will be able sell Brazilian built E2s in the USA for whatever price it desires.

If Airbus USA Inc becomes owner of the Mirabel FAL, will it be able to sell Canadian built CS300s (and why not CS500s :stirthepot: ) in the USA for whatever price it desires?


Note: Airbus has an FAL starting in the US for CS series. Boeing does not have an FAL for embraer. So with 45's new trade war that could be an issue for US order being sold for "whatever price it desires"
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:10 pm

For service, installed base is very important. Embraer (and the C series) both gain having the field support at nearly every major airport that services the 737 or 320. It will make the difference of having parts in stock and available mechanics vs shipping parts in. This should improve sales.

As VC10er noted, Embraer has a culture that is providing good designs and is nimble enough to certify models rather quickly. I can't find it at the moment but it is like a dozen new models certified in the last decade. Initially the best Boeing can do is provide financial support and stand back. It seems to me that E needed additional financials, that explains the 80% share that is B's. Over time E's engineering will be a big asset to B and B's to E's as well.
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:23 pm

[quote="JayinKitsap"]For service, installed base is very important. Embraer (and the C series) both gain having the field support at nearly every major airport that services the 737 or 320. It will make the difference of having parts in stock and available mechanics vs shipping parts in. This should improve sales.
/quote]
Not that simple, Embraer are an OEM just like Boeing, they have contracts with suppliers to supply their installed base, do airlines complain about getting parts and services in a reasonable time frame?
To get Boeing suppliers on board they either increase output or contracts will be moved to larger Boeing suppliers to get greater volume, unless there are protections in the buy, this can be done easily, just have a lot of pissed off vendors.
Now getting more Boeing engineers qualified to work on Embraer a/c is cross training, minimal interim loss of jobs.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:21 pm

This industry consolidation is 100% the fault of Canada and Bombardier. Full stop.

Boeing’s trade complaint had everything to do with Canadian shenanigans. Canada still deserves to lose, however worthless a WTO ruling may be.

None of this would have happened if it weren’t for protectionist Canadian subsidies.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:26 pm

PPVRA wrote:
This industry consolidation is 100% the fault of Canada and Bombardier. Full stop.

Boeing’s trade complaint had everything to do with Canadian shenanigans. Canada still deserves to lose, however worthless a WTO ruling may be.

None of this would have happened if it weren’t for protectionist Canadian subsidies.


You know you're about to be shouted down, right? I wish you the best.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
PPVRA
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:36 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
This industry consolidation is 100% the fault of Canada and Bombardier. Full stop.

Boeing’s trade complaint had everything to do with Canadian shenanigans. Canada still deserves to lose, however worthless a WTO ruling may be.

None of this would have happened if it weren’t for protectionist Canadian subsidies.


You know you're about to be shouted down, right? I wish you the best.


Has to be said. And their justification for the subsidies was innovation—let’s see how much innovation we get going forward with a cemented duopoly without a competitor threat in sight.

Talk about sacrificing the future to save one program.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:12 pm

PPVRA wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
This industry consolidation is 100% the fault of Canada and Bombardier. Full stop.

Boeing’s trade complaint had everything to do with Canadian shenanigans. Canada still deserves to lose, however worthless a WTO ruling may be.

None of this would have happened if it weren’t for protectionist Canadian subsidies.


You know you're about to be shouted down, right? I wish you the best.


Has to be said. And their justification for the subsidies was innovation—let’s see how much innovation we get going forward with a cemented duopoly without a competitor threat in sight.

Talk about sacrificing the future to save one program.


The US trade body that nixed any punishment on BBD, basically based their decision on what anybody who wasn't Boeing said from the beginning; Boeing had no basis for complaint since the CSeries sold to Delta didn't compete with any Boeing product. Boeing tried to bury the lead that it was really worried about potential future models which might compete, but since they couldn't prove BBD was even working on a model which would compete with a Boeing product, that went nowhere as well.

In the meantime, while this silliness was going on, Boeing's new partner reported the range of the similarly sized to the CS100, E2-195, as being just under the arbitrary range limit set by Boeing as to what constituted competition with their products, so only the CSeries would be targeted. Then, shortly after Boeing's complaint was tossed, Emb magically found a few hundred extra miles range and Boeing announce talks with Emb to team up. Totally legit, fer shure.

There are no white knights or clean hands in corporate intrigue. It's all one huge, stinking mess...so convoluted that it's not only incredibly difficult to decipher, but pretty much impossible to prosecute. With the right tax breaks and fat envelopes, any problem can be made to vanish.
What the...?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:35 pm

And we are off to the races. Or is it Hockey? Or Soccer?
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:31 pm

I'm surprised that this deal is happening at all.
In the end, I think that Embraer got a relatively good deal considering that their E2 wasn't selling. If they had waited until after Farnborough, the deal wouldn't have been as sweet unless they had booked significant amounts of orders, which was unlikely under a stand-alone Embraer.
Now Cseries vs. E2 has become a A vs. B affair.
I doubt that airlines can react fast enough to this news for Farnborough and I also doubt that the Cseries will win a lot less campaigns for now. Boeing will have to create significant momentum to start selling E2's by the dozens.
The Cseries is still the better airplane.
But yeah, Boeing is giving Embraer a lifeline here and Embraer had no choice but to sell.
 
JoeCanuck
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Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:25 am

Waterbomber wrote:
I'm surprised that this deal is happening at all.
In the end, I think that Embraer got a relatively good deal considering that their E2 wasn't selling. If they had waited until after Farnborough, the deal wouldn't have been as sweet unless they had booked significant amounts of orders, which was unlikely under a stand-alone Embraer.
Now Cseries vs. E2 has become a A vs. B affair.
I doubt that airlines can react fast enough to this news for Farnborough and I also doubt that the Cseries will win a lot less campaigns for now. Boeing will have to create significant momentum to start selling E2's by the dozens.
The Cseries is still the better airplane.
But yeah, Boeing is giving Embraer a lifeline here and Embraer had no choice but to sell.


Both deals were somewhat unexpected, but in retrospect, it seems they were inevitable. BBD needed everything to go perfectly with the CSeries development but delays, many self inflicted, put them too far under to recover. My spin on Emb is that they were really counting on the E2-175 to gain them a foothold in the US but scope clauses threw the brakes on that and the 195 is in a knife fight with the CS100 in a hard to sell in segment.

Just because they could, the big boys were making things even tougher by pricing their products low enough to take profit away from the little guys.

C'est la vie.
What the...?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:49 am

Waterbomber wrote:
I'm surprised that this deal is happening at all.
In the end, I think that Embraer got a relatively good deal considering that their E2 wasn't selling. If they had waited until after Farnborough, the deal wouldn't have been as sweet unless they had booked significant amounts of orders, which was unlikely under a stand-alone Embraer.
Now Cseries vs. E2 has become a A vs. B affair.
I doubt that airlines can react fast enough to this news for Farnborough and I also doubt that the Cseries will win a lot less campaigns for now. Boeing will have to create significant momentum to start selling E2's by the dozens.
The Cseries is still the better airplane.
But yeah, Boeing is giving Embraer a lifeline here and Embraer had no choice but to sell.


Considering it'll be 12-18 months before the deal goes through, I'm thinking Boeing is more focused on the long game than what is happening at Farnborough in a few weeks. I don't say that to be argumentative, but rather to acknowledge that there's really not much they're going to be able to do to support the program until after it all closes. Until then, it's not a sure thing and Embraer will just have to proceed on plan.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
airzona11
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:29 am

People can shout and blame a company filing complaints or a President, but fact of the matter is the commercial aviation market moved away from the smaller space and is all in in the +150 seat space. The market is driving reality there. Established airlines costs are going up and they need more people on each flight. New airlines are packing seats in to compete. The airline business is capital intensive and very difficult to enter. This consolidation is consolidation purely based on what the airlines are purchasing. Not some trade complain. Not a President. But, the market reality.

Win for Boeing, as it was for Airbus. Ultimately, it will be a win for the airlines.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:00 am

PPVRA wrote:
Has to be said. And their justification for the subsidies was innovation—let’s see how much innovation we get going forward with a cemented duopoly without a competitor threat in sight.

Talk about sacrificing the future to save one program.


The justification for the bailout was so that one of Canada's largest employers didn't shut down for business, just as the US bailed out General Motors in 2008. It can be viewed as illegal, but I guess they preferred a slap on the wrist instead of bankruptcy.
 
brindabella
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:44 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
I'm surprised that this deal is happening at all.
In the end, I think that Embraer got a relatively good deal considering that their E2 wasn't selling. If they had waited until after Farnborough, the deal wouldn't have been as sweet unless they had booked significant amounts of orders, which was unlikely under a stand-alone Embraer.
Now Cseries vs. E2 has become a A vs. B affair.
I doubt that airlines can react fast enough to this news for Farnborough and I also doubt that the Cseries will win a lot less campaigns for now. Boeing will have to create significant momentum to start selling E2's by the dozens.
The Cseries is still the better airplane.
But yeah, Boeing is giving Embraer a lifeline here and Embraer had no choice but to sell.


Well EMB certainly got a far, far better deal than the poor taxpayers of Quebec & the Canadian Commonwealth.

Billions of taxpayers dollars to bale Bombardier out then they got a princely $1 back for it.

But it's OK, they can still go around blaming rotten Boeing, the horrible Americans and especially that unspeakable Trump.

Absolutely nothing to do with a rotten project choice and pitiful execution.

Spare me.

:sarcastic:

cheers
Billy
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:49 pm

airzona11 wrote:
People can shout and blame a company filing complaints or a President, but fact of the matter is the commercial aviation market moved away from the smaller space and is all in in the +150 seat space. The market is driving reality there. Established airlines costs are going up and they need more people on each flight. New airlines are packing seats in to compete. The airline business is capital intensive and very difficult to enter. This consolidation is consolidation purely based on what the airlines are purchasing. Not some trade complain. Not a President. But, the market reality.

Win for Boeing, as it was for Airbus. Ultimately, it will be a win for the airlines.


It's noted elsewhere that E145 and CR2 production has ended. The 50-seat-and-less space is substantially vacated. 318s and 736s died. We're likely going to see that Max 7s and 319Neos are marginal. At least in the U.S. market, anyway. Pilot compensation is different elsewhere and may tolerate smaller frames. Canada (and the U.S., through) may support some non-market solutions.
 
geoshina
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:39 pm

brindabella wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
I'm surprised that this deal is happening at all.
In the end, I think that Embraer got a relatively good deal considering that their E2 wasn't selling. If they had waited until after Farnborough, the deal wouldn't have been as sweet unless they had booked significant amounts of orders, which was unlikely under a stand-alone Embraer.
Now Cseries vs. E2 has become a A vs. B affair.
I doubt that airlines can react fast enough to this news for Farnborough and I also doubt that the Cseries will win a lot less campaigns for now. Boeing will have to create significant momentum to start selling E2's by the dozens.
The Cseries is still the better airplane.
But yeah, Boeing is giving Embraer a lifeline here and Embraer had no choice but to sell.


Well EMB certainly got a far, far better deal than the poor taxpayers of Quebec & the Canadian Commonwealth.

Billions of taxpayers dollars to bale Bombardier out then they got a princely $1 back for it.

But it's OK, they can still go around blaming rotten Boeing, the horrible Americans and especially that unspeakable Trump.

Absolutely nothing to do with a rotten project choice and pitiful execution.

Spare me.

:sarcastic:

cheers


I have to agree with you.
And there are really some delusional people here, like the Waterbomber gentleman.
Just some questions to put in perspective:

Was Embraer that almost went out of business because of the C series? I don't think so.
Was Embraer sucking taxpayer money in order to live? I don't think so.
Was Embrear on the brink of bankruptcy? I also don't think so.

Both C series and E2 are great planes and it would be great to stop this "mine is bigger than yours" nonsense.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:14 pm

brindabella wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
I'm surprised that this deal is happening at all.
In the end, I think that Embraer got a relatively good deal considering that their E2 wasn't selling. If they had waited until after Farnborough, the deal wouldn't have been as sweet unless they had booked significant amounts of orders, which was unlikely under a stand-alone Embraer.
Now Cseries vs. E2 has become a A vs. B affair.
I doubt that airlines can react fast enough to this news for Farnborough and I also doubt that the Cseries will win a lot less campaigns for now. Boeing will have to create significant momentum to start selling E2's by the dozens.
The Cseries is still the better airplane.
But yeah, Boeing is giving Embraer a lifeline here and Embraer had no choice but to sell.


Well EMB certainly got a far, far better deal than the poor taxpayers of Quebec & the Canadian Commonwealth.

Billions of taxpayers dollars to bale Bombardier out then they got a princely $1 back for it.

But it's OK, they can still go around blaming rotten Boeing, the horrible Americans and especially that unspeakable Trump.

Absolutely nothing to do with a rotten project choice and pitiful execution.

Spare me.

:sarcastic:

cheers


The Quebec taxpayers are part owners of the CSeries so they get a percentage of every aircraft sold. Now that Airbus is involved, they stand to make a good profit. Jobs stay in Quebec and the company and the worker continue to pay money into the province. The taxpayers of Quebec seem fine with it.

Emb did get a good deal, but it's not like they had any choice. The E2 isn't exactly flying off of the shelves. They made a huge tactical error with the 175, making it much too heavy, hoping beyond reason that US unions would reverse everything they spend decades building with scope clauses, and just fall in line because it's too awesome to resist. The 195 isn't gaining nearly enough traction to make up for the lack of 175 sales.

Complain about BBD all you like, and they certainly deserve their share of criticism, but Emb made plenty of puppies pregnant with the E2 as well. Neither product line was going to survive on its own in the long run.
What the...?
 
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par13del
Posts: 8153
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:32 pm

So how is Boeing going to get the a/c sold bypassing scope?
Reality is that they won't, this purchase is about the next new thing in the inventory and what they can sell, the small cargo jet may be getting a big push.
 
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aerolimani
Posts: 978
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:37 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
brindabella wrote:
Well EMB certainly got a far, far better deal than the poor taxpayers of Quebec & the Canadian Commonwealth.

Billions of taxpayers dollars to bale Bombardier out then they got a princely $1 back for it.


The Quebec taxpayers are part owners of the CSeries so they get a percentage of every aircraft sold. Now that Airbus is involved, they stand to make a good profit. Jobs stay in Quebec and the company and the worker continue to pay money into the province. The taxpayers of Quebec seem fine with it.

Not to mention, in 7 years time, Airbus has the option to choose buy the other 49.99% of the program, or they could be forced by BBD to do so. Currently, Airbus and BBD say they have no plans to exercise this option. However, if Airbus were to end up buying out the remainder of the CSeries program, you can bet it would cost a lot more than $1.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 840
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:30 pm

geoshina wrote:
brindabella wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
I'm surprised that this deal is happening at all.
In the end, I think that Embraer got a relatively good deal considering that their E2 wasn't selling. If they had waited until after Farnborough, the deal wouldn't have been as sweet unless they had booked significant amounts of orders, which was unlikely under a stand-alone Embraer.
Now Cseries vs. E2 has become a A vs. B affair.
I doubt that airlines can react fast enough to this news for Farnborough and I also doubt that the Cseries will win a lot less campaigns for now. Boeing will have to create significant momentum to start selling E2's by the dozens.
The Cseries is still the better airplane.
But yeah, Boeing is giving Embraer a lifeline here and Embraer had no choice but to sell.


Well EMB certainly got a far, far better deal than the poor taxpayers of Quebec & the Canadian Commonwealth.

Billions of taxpayers dollars to bale Bombardier out then they got a princely $1 back for it.

But it's OK, they can still go around blaming rotten Boeing, the horrible Americans and especially that unspeakable Trump.

Absolutely nothing to do with a rotten project choice and pitiful execution.

Spare me.

:sarcastic:

cheers


I have to agree with you.
And there are really some delusional people here, like the Waterbomber gentleman.
Just some questions to put in perspective:

Was Embraer that almost went out of business because of the C series? I don't think so.
Was Embraer sucking taxpayer money in order to live? I don't think so.
Was Embrear on the brink of bankruptcy? I also don't think so.

Both C series and E2 are great planes and it would be great to stop this "mine is bigger than yours" nonsense.


Yes my friend I'm delusional and so are you.
Embraer sucked big taxpayer money with the KC390, an airplane that no one was asking for and no one except the Brazilian taxpayer has ordered. That came out of blue at the same time as the E2 project was being developped.
That's as coincidental as having hair growing on one's head instead of in the eyes.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1318
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:13 pm

geoshina wrote:
brindabella wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
I'm surprised that this deal is happening at all.
In the end, I think that Embraer got a relatively good deal considering that their E2 wasn't selling. If they had waited until after Farnborough, the deal wouldn't have been as sweet unless they had booked significant amounts of orders, which was unlikely under a stand-alone Embraer.
Now Cseries vs. E2 has become a A vs. B affair.
I doubt that airlines can react fast enough to this news for Farnborough and I also doubt that the Cseries will win a lot less campaigns for now. Boeing will have to create significant momentum to start selling E2's by the dozens.
The Cseries is still the better airplane.
But yeah, Boeing is giving Embraer a lifeline here and Embraer had no choice but to sell.


Well EMB certainly got a far, far better deal than the poor taxpayers of Quebec & the Canadian Commonwealth.

Billions of taxpayers dollars to bale Bombardier out then they got a princely $1 back for it.

But it's OK, they can still go around blaming rotten Boeing, the horrible Americans and especially that unspeakable Trump.

Absolutely nothing to do with a rotten project choice and pitiful execution.

Spare me.

:sarcastic:

cheers


I have to agree with you.
And there are really some delusional people here, like the Waterbomber gentleman.
Just some questions to put in perspective:

Was Embraer that almost went out of business because of the C series? I don't think so.
Was Embraer sucking taxpayer money in order to live? I don't think so.
Was Embrear on the brink of bankruptcy? I also don't think so.

Both C series and E2 are great planes and it would be great to stop this "mine is bigger than yours" nonsense.


Is this a hostile take over? I don't think so.
Is Embraer better off without this deal? Embraer does not think so

A and B are arguably the top 2 engineering companies in the world. They are certainly the top aerospace. This is good for all parties involved.
 
SteelChair
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:08 am

Is the 4 abreast E2 really a true competitor to the 5 abreast CSeries? Imho the answer is no. Boeing has a sub-optimal solution.

Considering the Airbus paid nothing for their 50.01%, I'm wondering why Boeing didn't make a deal with Bombardier for the CS when they had the chance?
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 8924
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:31 am

SteelChair wrote:
Is the 4 abreast E2 really a true competitor to the 5 abreast CSeries? Imho the answer is no. Boeing has a sub-optimal solution.

Considering the Airbus paid nothing for their 50.01%, I'm wondering why Boeing didn't make a deal with Bombardier for the CS when they had the chance?


What’s your theories?
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
brindabella
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:37 am

Waterbomber wrote:

Embraer sucked big taxpayer money with the KC390, an airplane that no one was asking for and no one except the Brazilian taxpayer has ordered. That came out of blue at the same time as the E2 project was being developed.





Others are far more expert about EMB than I profess to be but I think that's not correct
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Embraer_KC-390


Waterbomber wrote:
That's as coincidental as having hair growing on one's head instead of in the eyes.


Whatever that means we sure don't need it here.
Billy
 
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EMBSPBR
Posts: 440
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:46 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Embraer sucked big taxpayer money with the KC390, an airplane that no one was asking for and no one except the Brazilian taxpayer has ordered. That came out of blue at the same time as the E2 project was being developped.


With all respect, it is always notorious in your comments here and other topics about Embraer how much you try to disqualify the company.

The KC-390 is a program ordered to Embraer by the Ministry of Defense - Brazilian Air Force in 2008 and precedes the E2 program in at least five years.

No subsidy here.

Just a military project commissioned by a country's air force to local industry as others do in the world.

And, I'm sure you do not know that, every plane sold out of the brazilian air force's scope has to pay royalties to the Brazilian government.

Keep trying ...
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:52 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Is the 4 abreast E2 really a true competitor to the 5 abreast CSeries? Imho the answer is no. Boeing has a sub-optimal solution.


Please ask to the common passenger sitting in the middle seat and that is not here participating in the forum in this fight of PR what he thinks about it ...
 
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aerolimani
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:17 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Is the 4 abreast E2 really a true competitor to the 5 abreast CSeries? Imho the answer is no. Boeing has a sub-optimal solution.


Please ask to the common passenger sitting in the middle seat and that is not here participating in the forum in this fight of PR what he thinks about it ...

Unfortunately, the common passenger's opinion is of little concern to the airline. The accountants' opinions carry far more weight.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 566
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:44 pm

aerolimani wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Is the 4 abreast E2 really a true competitor to the 5 abreast CSeries? Imho the answer is no. Boeing has a sub-optimal solution.


Please ask to the common passenger sitting in the middle seat and that is not here participating in the forum in this fight of PR what he thinks about it ...

Unfortunately, the common passenger's opinion is of little concern to the airline. The accountants' opinions carry far more weight.


Exactly.

The ultimate capacity of the 4 abreast airplane is limited by fuselage length. The 5 abreast airplane is perfect for the 120-150 seat range, resulting in best in class seat mile costs. The lower seat mile costs will help market penetration at mainline carriers, which have higher pilot costs. The 4 abreast airplane is an RJ, the 5 abreast is a mainline airplane.

CSeries has a niche, which Airbus will capitalize upon. Boeing will have to convince customers to buy a suboptimal product. They'll probably try to lower purchase price on 737s or use some other incentives to try to get customers to take those wrong sized planes. Poorly managed airlines like UAL will probably stupidly do it.

All just mho of course.

I still can't figure why Boeing didn't take the CS when they could have had it. They miscalculated. Badly.
 
Nean1
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:24 pm

SteelChair wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:

Please ask to the common passenger sitting in the middle seat and that is not here participating in the forum in this fight of PR what he thinks about it ...

Unfortunately, the common passenger's opinion is of little concern to the airline. The accountants' opinions carry far more weight.


Exactly.

The ultimate capacity of the 4 abreast airplane is limited by fuselage length. The 5 abreast airplane is perfect for the 120-150 seat range, resulting in best in class seat mile costs. The lower seat mile costs will help market penetration at mainline carriers, which have higher pilot costs. The 4 abreast airplane is an RJ, the 5 abreast is a mainline airplane.

CSeries has a niche, which Airbus will capitalize upon. Boeing will have to convince customers to buy a suboptimal product. They'll probably try to lower purchase price on 737s or use some other incentives to try to get customers to take those wrong sized planes. Poorly managed airlines like UAL will probably stupidly do it.

All just mho of course.

I still can't figure why Boeing didn't take the CS when they could have had it. They miscalculated. Badly.


SteelChair,

The fuselage configuration chosen by Embraer (4 seats and cargo hold) has already shown that it is very attractive in the segment of 70-140 passengers. Theoretically a 5 abreast would be more efficient for the range of 120-150 passengers but the BBD did not demonstrate this in a convincing way, even spending much more time in design and employing more expensive materials.

In my opinion the sale of 80% of the business division to Boeing was a losing battle, it shows how dysfunctional the aviation industry has become.

With regard to repeated comments about the reasons Boeing did not take advantage to acquire the BBD I can only make some conjectures:

- Boeing initially did not want to abandon its focus, only decided to enter the regional segment because of Airbus' boldness.
- BBD offered a product, on the other hand Embraer offers a product, design and production capacity at attractive costs.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 8924
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:42 pm

SteelChair wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:

Please ask to the common passenger sitting in the middle seat and that is not here participating in the forum in this fight of PR what he thinks about it ...

Unfortunately, the common passenger's opinion is of little concern to the airline. The accountants' opinions carry far more weight.


Exactly.

The ultimate capacity of the 4 abreast airplane is limited by fuselage length. The 5 abreast airplane is perfect for the 120-150 seat range, resulting in best in class seat mile costs. The lower seat mile costs will help market penetration at mainline carriers, which have higher pilot costs. The 4 abreast airplane is an RJ, the 5 abreast is a mainline airplane.

CSeries has a niche, which Airbus will capitalize upon. Boeing will have to convince customers to buy a suboptimal product. They'll probably try to lower purchase price on 737s or use some other incentives to try to get customers to take those wrong sized planes. Poorly managed airlines like UAL will probably stupidly do it.

All just mho of course.

I still can't figure why Boeing didn't take the CS when they could have had it. They miscalculated. Badly.


Again, why do you assume it’s a miscalculation? You seem to assume that the CSeries is the holy grail and the Ejet is a lead wait. You also seem to assume that Boeing (or Airbus) needed the CSeries. It is so early in this game that we haven’t even seen the first play of the first quarter. We also don’t know what Boeing really wants or needs relative to what Airbus wants or needs. Instead, we focus on $1 for 50.01% vs $3.8B for 80%, or 4 abreast v 5 abreast. Well, it just might be that those are both fair deals based on what each big OEM wants or needs from the smaller guys.

Anyhow, to label it a bad miscalculation by Boeing at this very early stage is a bit premature and, frankly, one-dimensional. There’s more to these deals than price paid or 4- v 5- abreast seating.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
SteelChair
Posts: 566
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:05 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
Unfortunately, the common passenger's opinion is of little concern to the airline. The accountants' opinions carry far more weight.


Exactly.

The ultimate capacity of the 4 abreast airplane is limited by fuselage length. The 5 abreast airplane is perfect for the 120-150 seat range, resulting in best in class seat mile costs. The lower seat mile costs will help market penetration at mainline carriers, which have higher pilot costs. The 4 abreast airplane is an RJ, the 5 abreast is a mainline airplane.

CSeries has a niche, which Airbus will capitalize upon. Boeing will have to convince customers to buy a suboptimal product. They'll probably try to lower purchase price on 737s or use some other incentives to try to get customers to take those wrong sized planes. Poorly managed airlines like UAL will probably stupidly do it.

All just mho of course.

I still can't figure why Boeing didn't take the CS when they could have had it. They miscalculated. Badly.


Again, why do you assume it’s a miscalculation? You seem to assume that the CSeries is the holy grail and the Ejet is a lead wait. You also seem to assume that Boeing (or Airbus) needed the CSeries. It is so early in this game that we haven’t even seen the first play of the first quarter. We also don’t know what Boeing really wants or needs relative to what Airbus wants or needs. Instead, we focus on $1 for 50.01% vs $3.8B for 80%, or 4 abreast v 5 abreast. Well, it just might be that those are both fair deals based on what each big OEM wants or needs from the smaller guys.

Anyhow, to label it a bad miscalculation by Boeing at this very early stage is a bit premature and, frankly, one-dimensional. There’s more to these deals than price paid or 4- v 5- abreast seating.


Imho 1) Boeing now has a gap in their product offering because the Ejet is too small. Efficiency driven mainline carriets don't want A319neos and 737-7 MAX, and 2) the E jet is too small to run (efficiently) at a mainline US carrier given scope clauses, pay rates, and fares.

I'm not sure that either needed the small jets, but once Airbus moved on Bombardier, Boeing was forced to move. Boeing didn't WANT to do the Embraer deal, they were forced into it. Its a defensive move, and a late one at that. They appear weak, late, and indecisive. Quite a fall from the company that basically created ETOPS 30-35 years ago with the 767-300ER and forced Airbus reluctantly into that arena.

And its not early in the game, its late. These companies have been competing for decades in a world where the rate of innovation seems to be increasing

The "more" that you reference? Could they be geopolitics, and miltary sales, and trade disputes? How about trying to build the right sized plane at the right price and with the right leve of technology?

Thats all, just mho.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 8924
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:21 pm

SteelChair wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Exactly.

The ultimate capacity of the 4 abreast airplane is limited by fuselage length. The 5 abreast airplane is perfect for the 120-150 seat range, resulting in best in class seat mile costs. The lower seat mile costs will help market penetration at mainline carriers, which have higher pilot costs. The 4 abreast airplane is an RJ, the 5 abreast is a mainline airplane.

CSeries has a niche, which Airbus will capitalize upon. Boeing will have to convince customers to buy a suboptimal product. They'll probably try to lower purchase price on 737s or use some other incentives to try to get customers to take those wrong sized planes. Poorly managed airlines like UAL will probably stupidly do it.

All just mho of course.

I still can't figure why Boeing didn't take the CS when they could have had it. They miscalculated. Badly.


Again, why do you assume it’s a miscalculation? You seem to assume that the CSeries is the holy grail and the Ejet is a lead wait. You also seem to assume that Boeing (or Airbus) needed the CSeries. It is so early in this game that we haven’t even seen the first play of the first quarter. We also don’t know what Boeing really wants or needs relative to what Airbus wants or needs. Instead, we focus on $1 for 50.01% vs $3.8B for 80%, or 4 abreast v 5 abreast. Well, it just might be that those are both fair deals based on what each big OEM wants or needs from the smaller guys.

Anyhow, to label it a bad miscalculation by Boeing at this very early stage is a bit premature and, frankly, one-dimensional. There’s more to these deals than price paid or 4- v 5- abreast seating.


Imho 1) Boeing now has a gap in their product offering because the Ejet is too small. Efficiency driven mainline carriets don't want A319neos and 737-7 MAX, and 2) the E jet is too small to run (efficiently) at a mainline US carrier given scope clauses, pay rates, and fares.

I'm not sure that either needed the small jets, but once Airbus moved on Bombardier, Boeing was forced to move. Boeing didn't WANT to do the Embraer deal, they were forced into it. Its a defensive move, and a late one at that. They appear weak, late, and indecisive. Quite a fall from the company that basically created ETOPS 30-35 years ago with the 767-300ER and forced Airbus reluctantly into that arena.

And its not early in the game, its late. These companies have been competing for decades in a world where the rate of innovation seems to be increasing

The "more" that you reference? Could they be geopolitics, and miltary sales, and trade disputes? How about trying to build the right sized plane at the right price and with the right leve of technology?

Thats all, just mho.


The thing is, the C-Series is a clean sheet. The EJet is not. It’s also a smaller frame. Boeing has to do a new narrowbody. The EJet is not meant to be that narrow body. Embraer will be able to play a major role though using their expertise in design and engineering. This will allow Boeing to focus its resources on the new middle of the market plane.

You also say that Boeing only did this as a response to the Airbus the deal. However, we know from comments that Boeing has been talking with Embraer for much longer. Perhaps a couple of years. They clearly see a better synergy there than they did with BBD. Otherwise, why not do the deal with them in the first place?

I’m not going to claim to understand everything that’s going on, but I think what you’re doing is looking at the surface as if that’s the whole story or picture. It really isn’t.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
SteelChair
Posts: 566
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:34 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Again, why do you assume it’s a miscalculation? You seem to assume that the CSeries is the holy grail and the Ejet is a lead wait. You also seem to assume that Boeing (or Airbus) needed the CSeries. It is so early in this game that we haven’t even seen the first play of the first quarter. We also don’t know what Boeing really wants or needs relative to what Airbus wants or needs. Instead, we focus on $1 for 50.01% vs $3.8B for 80%, or 4 abreast v 5 abreast. Well, it just might be that those are both fair deals based on what each big OEM wants or needs from the smaller guys.

Anyhow, to label it a bad miscalculation by Boeing at this very early stage is a bit premature and, frankly, one-dimensional. There’s more to these deals than price paid or 4- v 5- abreast seating.


Imho 1) Boeing now has a gap in their product offering because the Ejet is too small. Efficiency driven mainline carriets don't want A319neos and 737-7 MAX, and 2) the E jet is too small to run (efficiently) at a mainline US carrier given scope clauses, pay rates, and fares.

I'm not sure that either needed the small jets, but once Airbus moved on Bombardier, Boeing was forced to move. Boeing didn't WANT to do the Embraer deal, they were forced into it. Its a defensive move, and a late one at that. They appear weak, late, and indecisive. Quite a fall from the company that basically created ETOPS 30-35 years ago with the 767-300ER and forced Airbus reluctantly into that arena.

And its not early in the game, its late. These companies have been competing for decades in a world where the rate of innovation seems to be increasing

The "more" that you reference? Could they be geopolitics, and miltary sales, and trade disputes? How about trying to build the right sized plane at the right price and with the right leve of technology?

Thats all, just mho.


The thing is, the C-Series is a clean sheet. The EJet is not. It’s also a smaller frame. Boeing has to do a new narrowbody. The EJet is not meant to be that narrow body. Embraer will be able to play a major role though using their expertise in design and engineering. This will allow Boeing to focus its resources on the new middle of the market plane.

You also say that Boeing only did this as a response to the Airbus the deal. However, we know from comments that Boeing has been talking with Embraer for much longer. Perhaps a couple of years. They clearly see a better synergy there than they did with BBD. Otherwise, why not do the deal with them in the first place?

I’m not going to claim to understand everything that’s going on, but I think what you’re doing is looking at the surface as if that’s the whole story or picture. It really isn’t.


I agree with your statement about not seeing the whole. And as part of that, I'm certainly not believing that every public utterance from Boeing or Airbus is the full, complete, and unadulterated truth. They do partial revelations and acknowledgements to support their position.

Wr all know that it will take years to develop a new small airplane, I'm not even sure they will even start in any reasonable time frame. MOM has to come first, and it won't be here before 2025 (more likely 2027 imho, look at the KC46 and 787 for reference). Meanwhile, Airbus will be more competitive with the A200 series and A320 series offerings, at least for airlines that care about performance over politics.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 840
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:04 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Embraer sucked big taxpayer money with the KC390, an airplane that no one was asking for and no one except the Brazilian taxpayer has ordered. That came out of blue at the same time as the E2 project was being developped.


With all respect, it is always notorious in your comments here and other topics about Embraer how much you try to disqualify the company.

The KC-390 is a program ordered to Embraer by the Ministry of Defense - Brazilian Air Force in 2008 and precedes the E2 program in at least five years.

No subsidy here.

Just a military project commissioned by a country's air force to local industry as others do in the world.

And, I'm sure you do not know that, every plane sold out of the brazilian air force's scope has to pay royalties to the Brazilian government.

Keep trying ...


Yes, the KC 390 was requested by golden shareholder mother Brazil despite there being existing solutions on the market, such as the C130.
The KC390 program start doesn't coincide with the E2 launch, but it does coincide with the Cseries launch.

Yeah seriously, cousin Portugal bought a handful but will they ever be delivered? Portugal doesn't really need anything like that.

Embraer is receiving their share of government support, they're just never going to admit it openly the way BBD did. The WTO back and forths are pretty childish IMO.

I'm not against subsidies per se, I'm against receiving subsidies, denying it while pointing fingers at others.
It's childish, pointless and not elegant.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:38 am

Waterbomber wrote:
Yes, the KC 390 was requested by golden shareholder mother Brazil despite there being existing solutions on the market, such as the C130.


This is a non-sense comment.
You could try to convince the europeans to buy something else instead of A400 project ... :bigthumbsup:

Waterbomber wrote:
The KC390 program start doesn't coincide with the E2 launch, but it does coincide with the Cseries launch.


Another pointless argument.

Keep trying ...
 
User avatar
LockheedBBD
Posts: 543
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:13 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Yes, the KC 390 was requested by golden shareholder mother Brazil despite there being existing solutions on the market, such as the C130.


This is a non-sense comment.
You could try to convince the europeans to buy something else instead of A400 project ... :bigthumbsup:

Waterbomber wrote:
The KC390 program start doesn't coincide with the E2 launch, but it does coincide with the Cseries launch.


Another pointless argument.

Keep trying ...


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