ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:51 pm

Just curious, does that mean Airbus USA inc will be able to lodge an ITC dumping complaint if E2s US sale prices are below those elsewhere... (once the Mobile FAL is up and running) :stirthepot:
 
bob75013
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:25 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Just curious, does that mean Airbus USA inc will be able to lodge an ITC dumping complaint if E2s US sale prices are below those elsewhere... (once the Mobile FAL is up and running) :stirthepot:


Airbus USA can sell within the USA what ever it builds in the USA for whatever price it desires -- just as Boeing can.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:29 pm

Minor issue, but any word on the Lineage 1000? Stays with Embraer or goes to Joint Venture?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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PW100
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:35 pm

D L X wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
already covered with extensive discussion here

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1381717

DEFINITELY time for a new thread considering now there's an actual deal.


At the risk of being a bit pedantic: at this stage all there is is a non-binding MOU.

Now of course a lot of things can (and probably will) happen. But that an agreed actual deal is not really there, yet. I suggest we continue in the original thread.
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NYCSKYGUY
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:36 pm

zkojq wrote:
Very interesting indeed. From the Brazilians perspective, I am surprised about Boeing getting 80%. A 50/50 joint venture makes sense, but 80% seems very high, considering that commercial airplanes is Embraer's bred and butter, so to speak.

Nevertheless, I wish both parties all the best.


I'm not so sure that commercial jets are where their greatest source of revenue is. Their business jets have become quite popular in the last 5 years, I'm sure they are a very significant portion of their sales.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:36 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Minor issue, but any word on the Lineage 1000? Stays with Embraer or goes to Joint Venture?


As said many times and in the article, just commercial aircraft.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:02 pm

There goes Embraer having B6 as a customer. Looks like the C-Series wins B6 as a customer.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:08 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
There goes Embraer having B6 as a customer. Looks like the C-Series wins B6 as a customer.


Because 20 years ago Boeing didn’t cut them a deal? Good grief. If B6 needed an excuse, they need look no further than their own experiences with the Ejet.
-Dave


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LockheedBBD
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:13 pm

Congrats to Boeing!

R.I.P. Independent Embraer :frown:
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:15 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Airbus USA can sell within the USA what ever it builds in the USA for whatever price it desires -- just as Boeing can.

I see. So Boeing will be able sell Brazilian built E2s in the USA for whatever price it desires.

If Airbus USA Inc becomes owner of the Mirabel FAL, will it be able to sell Canadian built CS300s (and why not CS500s :stirthepot: ) in the USA for whatever price it desires?
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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deltadawg
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:23 pm

Seems to me that this is a possible future joint venture to replace the 737. Design/Sales/Engineering/Support carried out by Boeing USA and considerable/complete assembly carried out in Brazil (aka no unions perhaps). Clean slate replacement of the 737 coming up after the 797 perhaps once Boeing sinks its claws into the Embraer infrastructure?

Also, I believe the KC-390 is a foregone conclusion also that it will end up in the Boeing stable as well. Boeing will show potential huge sales numbers to the Brazilian government associated with existing US and allied military customers and the Brazilians will see it as an avenue to the military machine infrastructure with employed Brazilian employees and factories. The Pentagon and DOD will insist that they need the KC-390 but only with Boeing support thus making sure control is handled by Boeing USA.
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:30 pm

Flyglobal wrote:
Reading what is included and what is excluded: Basically Boeing buys the E2 (190/195) Project - rather similar to Airbus buying just the CS program.


Embraer definitely got the better deal out of the two. Embraer will get $4.6 Billion, Bombardier received $1. :lol:
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:33 pm

deltadawg wrote:
Seems to me that this is a possible future joint venture to replace the 737. Design/Sales/Engineering/Support carried out by Boeing USA and considerable/complete assembly carried out in Brazil (aka no unions perhaps).


I think that Boeing will be using a lot of Embraer's engineers to help design a 737 replacement. The 797 project will gobble up all the American engineers.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:38 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:

Embraer definitely got the better deal out of the two. Embraer will get $4.6 Billion, Bombardier received $1. :lol:

OTOH, Bombardier gets to continue to exist, which is not what was at stake for Embraer.

And the remaining 49.99% will definitely not sell just for a dollar in a few years...
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:43 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:

Embraer definitely got the better deal out of the two. Embraer will get $4.6 Billion, Bombardier received $1. :lol:

OTOH, Bombardier gets to continue to exist, which is not what was at stake for Embraer.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:53 pm

zkojq wrote:
Very interesting indeed. From the Brazilians perspective, I am surprised about Boeing getting 80%. A 50/50 joint venture makes sense, but 80% seems very high, considering that commercial airplanes is Embraer's bred and butter, so to speak.

Nevertheless, I wish both parties all the best.


I believe 80% ownership is the threshold Boeing needs to full consolidate Embraer’s commercial aviation financials into Boeing’s. Accounting on 50/50 JVs is more complex.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:11 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
There goes Embraer having B6 as a customer. Looks like the C-Series wins B6 as a customer.


Because 20 years ago Boeing didn’t cut them a deal? Good grief. If B6 needed an excuse, they need look no further than their own experiences with the Ejet.


That, along with their E-Jet issues, along with Airbus now having a partnership with Bombardier.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:33 pm

Any guesses on a possible new name for the E-Jet family under Boeing ownership? :)

My guess, something similar to:
Embraer E2-175 ------> Boeing 717-700 MAX
Embraer E2-190 ------> Boeing 717-800 MAX
Embraer E2-195 ------> Beoing 717-900 MAX
 
Boof02671
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:42 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
Any guesses on a possible new name for the E-Jet family under Boeing ownership? :)

My guess, something similar to:
Embraer E2-175 ------> Boeing 717-700 MAX
Embraer E2-190 ------> Boeing 717-800 MAX
Embraer E2-195 ------> Beoing 717-900 MAX


No!
 
MCIRNO
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:00 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
Any guesses on a possible new name for the E-Jet family under Boeing ownership? :)

My guess, something similar to:
Embraer E2-175 ------> Boeing 717-700 MAX
Embraer E2-190 ------> Boeing 717-800 MAX
Embraer E2-195 ------> Beoing 717-900 MAX


How about a subset? Like a 606-5 = 175, 616-0 = 190, 616-5 = 195

Keep the 700s and higher numbers for larger jets
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:09 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Very interesting indeed. From the Brazilians perspective, I am surprised about Boeing getting 80%. A 50/50 joint venture makes sense, but 80% seems very high, considering that commercial airplanes is Embraer's bred and butter, so to speak.

Nevertheless, I wish both parties all the best.


I believe 80% ownership is the threshold Boeing needs to full consolidate Embraer’s commercial aviation financials into Boeing’s. Accounting on 50/50 JVs is more complex.


Under GAAP, the threshold for full consolidation is 50% + 1 share.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:11 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:

Embraer definitely got the better deal out of the two. Embraer will get $4.6 Billion, Bombardier received $1. :lol:

OTOH, Bombardier gets to continue to exist, which is not what was at stake for Embraer.

And the remaining 49.99% will definitely not sell just for a dollar in a few years...


I thought it was 34%.

https://centreforaviation.com/news/bomb ... eal-816013
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:25 pm

PPVRA wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
OTOH, Bombardier gets to continue to exist, which is not what was at stake for Embraer.

And the remaining 49.99% will definitely not sell just for a dollar in a few years...


I thought it was 34%.

https://centreforaviation.com/news/bomb ... eal-816013


That is correct.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:24 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
And the remaining 49.99% will definitely not sell just for a dollar in a few years...

I thought it was 34%.
https://centreforaviation.com/news/bomb ... eal-816013

That is correct.

Airbus will be required to eventually purchase all the remaining shares (yes, 49.99% :smile: ) from BOTH the Province of Quebec and BBD. Those shares will definitely not sell at $1...
 
Oykie
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:29 pm

Interesting news. Congratulations to Boeing and Embraer for agreeing tot this. I wonder how this announcement will evolve. But this step is very significant and will change the commercial landscape for many years together with Airbus and the CSeries
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
neutronstar73
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:33 pm

This move looks like a "me too" by Boeing in light of the Airbus/Bombardier tie-up. I guess they had to do something since I thought Boeing were idiots not to take Bombardier up on their offer for the C-Series.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:48 pm

neutronstar73 wrote:
This move looks like a "me too" by Boeing in light of the Airbus/Bombardier tie-up. I guess they had to do something since I thought Boeing were idiots not to take Bombardier up on their offer for the C-Series.


Perhaps still harboring bad memories of their short ownership of de Havilland Canada in the mid-1980s?
 
bigjku
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:57 pm

neutronstar73 wrote:
This move looks like a "me too" by Boeing in light of the Airbus/Bombardier tie-up. I guess they had to do something since I thought Boeing were idiots not to take Bombardier up on their offer for the C-Series.


We will see. I have had people at Boeing swear up and down they have little to no interest in the new airplanes produced by either of those potential acquisitions. They say to me that what they are after from Embraer is not something BBD had to offer. It may be sour grapes or it may not.

I feel like the E2 planes are going to struggle unless there is scope clause revision. Maybe Boeing can help get that done but I highly doubt it.

I feel like the CS will struggle unless there is untapped demand for a couple hundred more narrows each year. While both builders have lots of backlog I feel like most major airlines have their place in line and can move forward or backwards mostly as needed on the existing products. I don’t have a lot of faith that another 1,500 to 2,000 plane backlog can be built to achieve the scale necessary to get price where it makes sense to buy a CS instead of an A320neo.

Should be interesting to see what develops. Airbus near as I can tell most took a free flyer on a plane. Boeing got a plane and a bunch of people and services. They look like very different transactions.
 
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william
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:20 pm

neutronstar73 wrote:
This move looks like a "me too" by Boeing in light of the Airbus/Bombardier tie-up. I guess they had to do something since I thought Boeing were idiots not to take Bombardier up on their offer for the C-Series.


Until one remembers Boeing passed up on the deal Airbus took. The deal made sense for Airbus but not Boeing.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:20 pm

I dont like it - Airbus gets the Cseries, Boeing gets the E2? Collusion is rife here I am so certain of it. Airbus and Boeing have got whole airplane market from 80-500 seats, short, medium and long haul. They dont need to compete with each other now, both will make lots of $$$
 
PDPsol
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Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:35 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Very interesting indeed. From the Brazilians perspective, I am surprised about Boeing getting 80%. A 50/50 joint venture makes sense, but 80% seems very high, considering that commercial airplanes is Embraer's bred and butter, so to speak.

Nevertheless, I wish both parties all the best.


I believe 80% ownership is the threshold Boeing needs to full consolidate Embraer’s commercial aviation financials into Boeing’s. Accounting on 50/50 JVs is more complex.


Under GAAP, the threshold for full consolidation is 50% + 1 share.


That is correct for purchase accounting treatment on behalf of the 'acquirer', must control at least 50.1%. The reference to a 'more complex' joint venture may refer to pure (and overly simple) equity-method accounting and the odd proportional accounting method. In reality, only issue with a small control margin is the associated large minority interest balance and associated expense, representing the relative net income owned by the minority partner.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:35 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
I dont like it - Airbus gets the Cseries, Boeing gets the E2? Collusion is rife here I am so certain of it. Airbus and Boeing have got whole airplane market from 80-500 seats, short, medium and long haul. They dont need to compete with each other now, both will make lots of $$$


Boeing is likely about to announce the 797, which well likely take up much of Boeing's design capabilities. Boeing is about to become close partners with a design house that has a long history of on time, on spec. and on budget designs.

A lot of speculation up-thread is that Boeing just bought the ability to start designing a 737 replacement before 2025, and to build it offshore.
 
AirbusA6
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:55 pm

Sad that the Western duopoly now covers even more of the market now. Indeed outside of Russia and China, what commercial programmes don't come under Boeing and Airbus now, other than the Japanese MRJ which must be under real pressure now (if it already wasn't under attack)?
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VC10er
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:56 pm

I’m joining this after 500+ posts...so I have not read every posted thought/question and answer.
My very first thought is: is there Boeing tech that could be brought to the E2 jetliner, such as wing design, aerodynamics, engines or composite? (Increase range and efficiency?) Anything to further boost the capability of the E2?
Would there also be an opportunity for Embraer to look at a larger aircraft?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
bigjku
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:07 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
I dont like it - Airbus gets the Cseries, Boeing gets the E2? Collusion is rife here I am so certain of it. Airbus and Boeing have got whole airplane market from 80-500 seats, short, medium and long haul. They dont need to compete with each other now, both will make lots of $$$


Boeing is likely about to announce the 797, which well likely take up much of Boeing's design capabilities. Boeing is about to become close partners with a design house that has a long history of on time, on spec. and on budget designs.

A lot of speculation up-thread is that Boeing just bought the ability to start designing a 737 replacement before 2025, and to build it offshore.


This is what I expect. I suspect they will originally work on NMA and variants to get acclimated and then will be used to build whatever slots in below that with production on anything smaller than NMA split between Brazil and the US.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:12 pm

From Dennis Muilenburg

"Boeing-Embraer partnership

Team,
Over the past few months, you’ve likely seen reports about Boeing’s potential partnership with Brazilian aerospace company Embraer as our discussions with key stakeholders progressed.

Today, I’m excited to share that we’ve signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Embraer to establish a strategic partnership that, when final, would expand our commercial airplane products and services, create new defense opportunities, strengthen our global team and accelerate our long-term growth plans.

Under the partnership, Boeing would assume a majority stake in and full operational and management control of a new Brazil-based commercial airplane business that includes Embraer’s ERJ and E-Jet families, the new E2 airplanes and all commercial aftermarket services.

This partnership would complement our existing lineup of single- and twin-aisle jets and create a portfolio—and a world-class team—that would deliver real value to our customers.

Embraer would retain the defense and executive jet products and services businesses associated with those products. A series of specific support agreements would ensure mutual benefits and enhanced competitiveness between Boeing, Embraer and the new joint venture, and would include a strategic partnership for global defense sales on jointly identified opportunities, especially for the KC-390 multi-mission aircraft.

This effort is the natural evolution of a long-standing partnership between two aerospace leaders with similar people-focused cultures of innovation and excellence.

By combining our diverse products and services, global supply chains, and sales and marketing capabilities, we can extend our shared global market leadership and better serve our customers’ evolving needs; support high-value, high-skilled aerospace jobs in both Brazil and the United States; and sell more aircraft and services in a growing and increasingly competitive industry—without significant change to our daily work.

This partnership is aligned with Boeing’s enterprise strategy of pursuing strategic investment opportunities where they make sense while accelerating our organic growth. There is no change to Boeing’s priority of growing our company through organic investment in our businesses and investment in research and development.

While this Memorandum of Understanding is a significant step, a considerable amount of work remains.
In the coming months, we’ll continue to work with Embraer and its shareholders, the Brazilian government and regulators, among others, to make this bold vision a reality. In the meantime, it’s critical to stay focused on our day-to-day responsibilities, serving our customers and meeting our business objectives. I’ll continue to keep you posted as we make progress.

Boeing has had many defining moments over the past century—people, products, events and business decisions that have shaped who we are and the enduring global industrial champion we strive to become.
This is one of those moments—an exciting, historic opportunity for Boeing, Embraer and our talented teammates who are committed to designing, building and supporting amazing products that provide our customers with even greater performance and value.

Thanks for your continued support of this effort and for all that you."
 
bigjku
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:13 pm

VC10er wrote:
I’m joining this after 500+ posts...so I have not read every posted thought/question and answer.
My very first thought is: is there Boeing tech that could be brought to the E2 jetliner, such as wing design, aerodynamics, engines or composite? (Increase range and efficiency?) Anything to further boost the capability of the E2?
Would there also be an opportunity for Embraer to look at a larger aircraft?


I don’t think the E2 needs more capability. It needs scope relief in the US or it needs to be made lighter to fit scope. More capability almost doesn’t matter.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:18 pm

And:

Source:

Excerpt:https://airinsight.com/boeing-and-embraer-what-it-means/

"A Cultural and Organizational Mismatch?

Boeing and Embraer tend to operate in different ways. At Boeing, engineering teams tend to be organized by program, with engineers focusing on one aircraft type. At Embraer, engineers tended to focus on technical areas (e.g., landing gear, avionics) and support multiple programs, including the E2, KC-390 tanker, and business jet programs. Splitting that apart may require the wisdom of Solomon to allocate resources cost-effectively to commercial and business jet programs, and to enable Embraer to continue its enviable track record of on-time and on-budget program developments, with 12 new aircraft in the last 13 years.

Culturally, Embraer also differs from Boeing, with what we perceive as a younger and more vibrant culture when contrasted to a more staid and traditional culture at Boeing. With Boeing taking the reins, the question of corporate culture and dynamics is something that will evolve, but could have a negative impact on Embraer.
"
 
airzona11
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:26 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
And:

Source:

Excerpt:https://airinsight.com/boeing-and-embraer-what-it-means/

"A Cultural and Organizational Mismatch?

Boeing and Embraer tend to operate in different ways. At Boeing, engineering teams tend to be organized by program, with engineers focusing on one aircraft type. At Embraer, engineers tended to focus on technical areas (e.g., landing gear, avionics) and support multiple programs, including the E2, KC-390 tanker, and business jet programs. Splitting that apart may require the wisdom of Solomon to allocate resources cost-effectively to commercial and business jet programs, and to enable Embraer to continue its enviable track record of on-time and on-budget program developments, with 12 new aircraft in the last 13 years.

Culturally, Embraer also differs from Boeing, with what we perceive as a younger and more vibrant culture when contrasted to a more staid and traditional culture at Boeing. With Boeing taking the reins, the question of corporate culture and dynamics is something that will evolve, but could have a negative impact on Embraer.
"


Nothing some cost accounting cannot fix. Embraer was not in a position of strength, Boeing was. There is nothing about Embraers culture that is bad or less desirable, but Embraer commercial is not a runaway success. There is always nostalgia and it is tough to see changes for companies people have invested so much in building, but if they have to endure some cultural changes to ensure long-term success, they would be wise to.

Airlines make money in the above 150 seat segment. That is where B and A make money. The below 150 market segment is still substantial, but it is secondary. Hence, we still basically have only A and B.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:29 pm

bigjku wrote:
neutronstar73 wrote:
This move looks like a "me too" by Boeing in light of the Airbus/Bombardier tie-up. I guess they had to do something since I thought Boeing were idiots not to take Bombardier up on their offer for the C-Series.


We will see. I have had people at Boeing swear up and down they have little to no interest in the new airplanes produced by either of those potential acquisitions. They say to me that what they are after from Embraer is not something BBD had to offer. It may be sour grapes or it may not.



It seems that Boeing was looking to acquire talented engineers. Embraer's corporate culture might also be more in line with Boeing.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:37 pm

Another side effect that no one has mentioned, Bombardier will now be competing directly against Boeing in the sub 100 seat class. Especially if Embraer/Boeing create a turboprop. My guess is that Bombardier will abandon it's remaining commercial division (CRJ/Q400) in the next couple of years, or sell it off to China if anyone there is interested.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:41 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
And:

Source:

Excerpt:https://airinsight.com/boeing-and-embraer-what-it-means/

"A Cultural and Organizational Mismatch?

Boeing and Embraer tend to operate in different ways. At Boeing, engineering teams tend to be organized by program, with engineers focusing on one aircraft type. At Embraer, engineers tended to focus on technical areas (e.g., landing gear, avionics) and support multiple programs, including the E2, KC-390 tanker, and business jet programs. Splitting that apart may require the wisdom of Solomon to allocate resources cost-effectively to commercial and business jet programs, and to enable Embraer to continue its enviable track record of on-time and on-budget program developments, with 12 new aircraft in the last 13 years.

Culturally, Embraer also differs from Boeing, with what we perceive as a younger and more vibrant culture when contrasted to a more staid and traditional culture at Boeing. With Boeing taking the reins, the question of corporate culture and dynamics is something that will evolve, but could have a negative impact on Embraer.
"



Boeing needs to learn something from Embraer, not the other way around.

Embraer's strategy seems more effective at getting things done efficiently than Boeing's:
At Embraer, engineers tended to focus on technical areas (e.g., landing gear, avionics) and support multiple programs, including the E2, KC-390 tanker, and business jet programs.

At Boeing, engineering teams tend to be organized by program, with engineers focusing on one aircraft type.
 
multimark
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:06 am

Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.
 
FlyHappy
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Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:16 am

I am starting to think the fears expressed here and elsewhere are overblown.

corporate culture clash
Boeing control/micromanagement
young Embraer engineers departing

I've read these things and more, but on close inspection, one finds the spin-off JV will remain a Brazilian company, with its own CEO. That's a big deal, and I strongly suspect that Boeing will appoint a Brazilian CEO.
These companies are no dummies; they've seen what works (CFM Int'l) and what doesn't (DaimlerChrysler AG) .

This isn't a knee-jerk reaction to the CS sales to Airbus; this JV has been long pursued, and I don't even think the E1/E2 products themselves are such a big part of it for Boeing - the metal is simply the physical manifestation in the notable achievements of EMB, as an organization.

I think Boeing is most interested in what Embraer can do in the future, and less so in the past or even present.
Boeing will diversify their engineering corp and gain a well-run FAL, among other benefits.

Have you noticed that there are very few (big) companies that are simultaneously good at both defence work and civil aviation? They tend to be one or the other. Boeing is probably the best at this, and I believe they will spread this success to the Brazilian side.

This may end up being very, very good for Brazil, and its employees.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:21 am

multimark wrote:
Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.


My friend, lets not get sidetracked, but the dumping complaint didn't doom the CS. It was a goner already.
And I'm not a fan of the complaint, either, so lets get that out of the way. BBD simply couldn't keep it in budget, build on schedule, and make enough sales, okay? The complaint had little effect on their impending collapse, and certainly had nothing to do with the need for the public bailouts and assistance.

the loss of the program was inevitable, due to their own actions.

edit: I can't believe I didn't even point out your use of "thriving" is a really, really, really sunny way of portraying both firms positions.
Last edited by FlyHappy on Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9289
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:27 am

Super80Fan wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
There goes Embraer having B6 as a customer. Looks like the C-Series wins B6 as a customer.


Because 20 years ago Boeing didn’t cut them a deal? Good grief. If B6 needed an excuse, they need look no further than their own experiences with the Ejet.


That, along with their E-Jet issues, along with Airbus now having a partnership with Bombardier.


Well, I think that you probably are able to hold a grudge longer than JetBlue is, but who knows?

EMBSPBR wrote:
And:

Source:

Excerpt:https://airinsight.com/boeing-and-embraer-what-it-means/

"A Cultural and Organizational Mismatch?

Boeing and Embraer tend to operate in different ways. At Boeing, engineering teams tend to be organized by program, with engineers focusing on one aircraft type. At Embraer, engineers tended to focus on technical areas (e.g., landing gear, avionics) and support multiple programs, including the E2, KC-390 tanker, and business jet programs. Splitting that apart may require the wisdom of Solomon to allocate resources cost-effectively to commercial and business jet programs, and to enable Embraer to continue its enviable track record of on-time and on-budget program developments, with 12 new aircraft in the last 13 years.

Culturally, Embraer also differs from Boeing, with what we perceive as a younger and more vibrant culture when contrasted to a more staid and traditional culture at Boeing. With Boeing taking the reins, the question of corporate culture and dynamics is something that will evolve, but could have a negative impact on Embraer.
"


This smacks of the response of VX folks when AS bought them out. "They don't understand us." "We are special." Well, while both of those may be true, it doesn't mean the future has to be that frightening. This might be a great spark for Boeing and help Embraer during a sales slump. (Yes, i said it.) I just hope that the folks at Boeing are open minded and that the folks at Embraer can avoid stumbling on their own pride.

multimark wrote:
Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.


lol Ok, sure.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26012
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Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:37 am

multimark wrote:
Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.


So if winning pushed Bombardier into Airbus' arms, one wonders what would have been the result if they had lost? Huge success? :scratchchin:
 
User avatar
Super80Fan
Posts: 1273
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:43 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Because 20 years ago Boeing didn’t cut them a deal? Good grief. If B6 needed an excuse, they need look no further than their own experiences with the Ejet.


That, along with their E-Jet issues, along with Airbus now having a partnership with Bombardier.


Well, I think that you probably are able to hold a grudge longer than JetBlue is, but who knows?



Don't get smart with me. B6 was already internally favoring the C-Series, this recent development should drive them to fully commit to it.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 4605
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:43 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Airbus USA can sell within the USA what ever it builds in the USA for whatever price it desires -- just as Boeing can.

I see. So Boeing will be able sell Brazilian built E2s in the USA for whatever price it desires.

If Airbus USA Inc becomes owner of the Mirabel FAL, will it be able to sell Canadian built CS300s (and why not CS500s :stirthepot: ) in the USA for whatever price it desires?


No, Boeing will not be able to sell Brazil-built Embraers in the U.S. at any price it desires, and I don't see how this is hard to understand. U.S. anti-dumping legislation applies to imports.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 4605
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Updated: Embraer and Boeing Partnership confirmed

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:47 am

multimark wrote:
Let's all take a moment to thank Boeing for this further cementing of a civil aviation duopoly. Had they not launched their ill-considered (and ultimately judged worthless trade complaint) we would still have two thriving independent firms building small jets.


I'm not thrilled with reduction in number of suppliers but aircraft is a business with huge barriers to entry (technical employment and manufacturing facilities), huge economies of scale (see sell prices of the last 739-ERs off the line) and big capital requirements. It's not clear the C-Series was going to survive even before the Airbus transaction. The Province of Quebec had sufficient concerns, obviously.

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