• 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 14
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 18800
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:33 pm

Nean1 wrote:
Like many aviation lovers I am fascinated by the charisma of the Mitsubishi Zero fighter, with clean lines and unique maneuverability.

Maneuverable because it had no armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. Turns out the design was OK as long as the enemy fought a turning fight. Once they learned to not do that, it was toast, literally.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
Like many aviation lovers I am fascinated by the charisma of the Mitsubishi Zero fighter, with clean lines and unique maneuverability.

Maneuverable because it had no armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. Turns out the design was OK as long as the enemy fought a turning fight. Once they learned to not do that, it was toast, literally.



Ok, we come from "Boeing taking over Embraer" to "The Zero fighter and its capabilities".
This make me believe that the topic is over ...
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 18800
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:44 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
Like many aviation lovers I am fascinated by the charisma of the Mitsubishi Zero fighter, with clean lines and unique maneuverability.

Maneuverable because it had no armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. Turns out the design was OK as long as the enemy fought a turning fight. Once they learned to not do that, it was toast, literally.

Ok, we come from "Boeing taking over Embraer" to "The Zero fighter and its capabilities".
This make me believe that the topic is over ...

It was over the instant we started talking about the Mitsu Zero and the Mitsu Lancer, IMHO.

By the way, how would the E2 do in a turning fight? :biggrin:
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Maneuverable because it had no armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. Turns out the design was OK as long as the enemy fought a turning fight. Once they learned to not do that, it was toast, literally.

Ok, we come from "Boeing taking over Embraer" to "The Zero fighter and its capabilities".
This make me believe that the topic is over ...

It was over the instant we started talking about the Mitsu Zero and the Mitsu Lancer, IMHO.


True.
From Zero to Nothing .... :spin:
 
CX747
Posts: 6038
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:19 pm

Pretty sure in a particular movie, two F-14s smoked 2 Zeroes!!!!!
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Nean1
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
Like many aviation lovers I am fascinated by the charisma of the Mitsubishi Zero fighter, with clean lines and unique maneuverability.

Maneuverable because it had no armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. Turns out the design was OK as long as the enemy fought a turning fight. Once they learned to not do that, it was toast, literally.


Revelation, I understand the difference between charisma and lethality. I'm an aviation enthusiast but I also like some poetry made out of aluminum ..
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 18800
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:31 am

Nean1 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
Like many aviation lovers I am fascinated by the charisma of the Mitsubishi Zero fighter, with clean lines and unique maneuverability.

Maneuverable because it had no armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. Turns out the design was OK as long as the enemy fought a turning fight. Once they learned to not do that, it was toast, literally.


Revelation, I understand the difference between charisma and lethality. I'm an aviation enthusiast but I also like some poetry made out of aluminum ..

Sure, that's easy for you to say now, but you were a Japanese pilot flying a Zero in 1945 with a Hellcat or Corsair nearby, you'd be thinking more of prayers rather than poetry.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 712
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:43 am

E vs. M... it had to happen eventually.
I think though that Embraer should embrace this as an opportunity versus the MRJ. A JV with Boeing puts them on a new level, and as some Embraer fan reactions testify to here, Embraer is really worried about the MRJ.

IMO, Embraer and Boeing have a mutually benefitial partnership in the making, but if the Brazilians don't see it that way, Boeing isn't going to insist for long.
 
CX747
Posts: 6038
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:56 am

Revelation wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Maneuverable because it had no armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. Turns out the design was OK as long as the enemy fought a turning fight. Once they learned to not do that, it was toast, literally.


Revelation, I understand the difference between charisma and lethality. I'm an aviation enthusiast but I also like some poetry made out of aluminum ..

Sure, that's easy for you to say now, but you were a Japanese pilot flying a Zero in 1945 with a Hellcat or Corsair nearby, you'd be thinking more of prayers rather than poetry.


The realities of military fighter aircraft in comparison to commercial products. The A-10 is neither a looker or performance king at airshows. It just hauls munitions, in massive quantities, in a manner allowing it to kill people and break their sh#t. Just ask any of the few remaining ISIS guys on the run after the last 6-8 months of having the Hawg as a 24/7 "friend".
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
MatthewDB
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:11 am

Waterbomber wrote:
If the U.S. has GE and Lockheed Martin, Japan has MHI.
By the way, the Fukushima nuclear plants that went boom? GE technology. It wouldn't have happened if it were MHI technology.


GE didn't tell them to put the backup generators at ground level in a tsunami zone. GE didn't tell them to put medium voltage switchgear in the basement in a tsunami zone. GE didn't tell them to not train the operators to the point that unit 1 operators didn't even know how to operate the emergency cooling. GE didn't tell them to forgo the hard vent modification that leads hydrogen to the top of the stack. GE didn't tell them to stubbornly refuse to vent the containment until the containment ruptures.

I regularly work with several large Japanese companies. I respect their engineers and they produce very good products with high reliability. But unfortunately that culture didn't extend to TEPCO and the government regulators. The Japanese own this failure.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:51 am

As expected by many, a takeover is highly unlikely:

Tie-up talks between Boeing Co and Embraer SA do not contemplate a change of control at the Brazilian planemaker and are focused on joint ventures and joint business agreements, a Brazilian newspaper reported on Tuesday.

Citing sources familiar with the talks, Valor Econômico said the companies were looking at forming joint business agreements in which they divide costs and income in certain areas, or JVs, in which both companies enter independently into a partnership.


Ref https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKBN1ER0RB
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
LockheedBBD
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:46 pm

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rotections

Boeing Co. is seeking control of Embraer SA while offering the Brazilian government safeguards concerning the company’s defense unit, people familiar with the matter said.

The U.S. planemaker is arguing that deals it has made in Australia and the U.K. show that it can operate defense businesses without compromising military plans, said the people, who asked not to be named because the talks are private. Brazil, which signaled opposition to an acquisition last month, is now suggesting it has some flexibility on the control issue, the people said.

Representatives from both companies and Brazil’s government are exploring defense protections that would still give Boeing full access to Embraer’s product lineup. Boeing is also pledging to retain the Embraer brand while enlisting the Brazilian company’s engineers on programs such as the potential development of a jetliner known as the “new mid-market airplane,” said the people.

Boeing and Embraer are pushing for an agreement with the Brazilian government soon since there’s a risk that political opposition would mount ahead of the South American country’s presidential election later this year, the people said. Boeing also wants to get Embraer engineers started as soon as possible on the project to develop the new aircraft.
 
User avatar
LockheedBBD
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:03 am

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/boeing- ... -deal.html


According to a few different sources (Bloomberg, CNBC, Wall Street Journal), it seems that negotiations are proceeding swiftly. Boeing and Embraer have supposedly settled on a takeout price ($28 USD/share). They will be meeting with Brazillian government officials in the coming weeks.


I wonder how Boeing can help with Embraer's business jet division? Can they reduce costs and help with increasing sales? Bombardier should be worried because they're going to be all alone on the business jet/turboprop/regional jet front.
 
User avatar
LockheedBBD
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:35 pm

A very interesting article from the Seattle Times, definitely worth a read. It talks about previous negotiations Boeing had with Embraer and Bombardier dating back to the late 90s and early 2000s.

Source: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... n-the-797/


General summary, read the article for more details.
- Boeing took serious looks alternately at Embraer and at its Canadian rival Bombardier over the past 18 years. In 1999, Boeing commissioned the first study of the possibility of buying Embraer.

-Embraer was developing its E-jets and the idea was to encourage it to engineer as much commonality as possible with the 106- to 117- seat 717, creating a family of airplanes for the otherwise orphan 717 jet. Mulally was set to move ahead. However, Harry Stonecipher, then president of Boeing, nixed the move. Apparently judging that Canada offered less risk than Brazil.

-The Beaudoin family demanded a price Boeing deemed too high. Meanwhile, Scott had left Boeing and joined Bombardier and launched the CSeries jet. In 2005, Scott visited Mulally and suggested that Boeing could collaborate on the CSeries. Boeing set up another internal study. When Embraer came out ahead, Mulally rebuffed Scott and Boeing pushed to structure a deal with the Brazilians. Boeing’s main interest was in Embraer’s engineering talent.

-To avoid a repeat of the 787 debacle, Boeing is unlikely to be interested in having Embraer engineers help develop a new Boeing plane. They’d have to be Boeing engineers. “That’s why Boeing wants to control Embraer,”


 
User avatar
william
Posts: 2817
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:09 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
A very interesting article from the Seattle Times, definitely worth a read. It talks about previous negotiations Boeing had with Embraer and Bombardier dating back to the late 90s and early 2000s.

Source: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... n-the-797/


General summary, read the article for more details.
- Boeing took serious looks alternately at Embraer and at its Canadian rival Bombardier over the past 18 years. In 1999, Boeing commissioned the first study of the possibility of buying Embraer.

-Embraer was developing its E-jets and the idea was to encourage it to engineer as much commonality as possible with the 106- to 117- seat 717, creating a family of airplanes for the otherwise orphan 717 jet. Mulally was set to move ahead. However, Harry Stonecipher, then president of Boeing, nixed the move. Apparently judging that Canada offered less risk than Brazil.

-The Beaudoin family demanded a price Boeing deemed too high. Meanwhile, Scott had left Boeing and joined Bombardier and launched the CSeries jet. In 2005, Scott visited Mulally and suggested that Boeing could collaborate on the CSeries. Boeing set up another internal study. When Embraer came out ahead, Mulally rebuffed Scott and Boeing pushed to structure a deal with the Brazilians. Boeing’s main interest was in Embraer’s engineering talent.

-To avoid a repeat of the 787 debacle, Boeing is unlikely to be interested in having Embraer engineers help develop a new Boeing plane. They’d have to be Boeing engineers. “That’s why Boeing wants to control Embraer,”




THIS-
"In the end, the effort at buying Bombardier seven years later foundered when the Beaudoin family demanded a price Boeing deemed too high.

“Boeing could have been interested in buying all of Bombardier’s aerospace unit, but not at the price they were asking,” said Scott, now retired, in an interview."

And Boeing declined again when Bombardier was offered to them....AGAIN!

Interesting that Boeing wants their engineering talent. EMB engineers did an excellent job on near narrowbody. Would be interesting to see they could do on a widebody.
 
User avatar
YuriMG2
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:52 pm

The article says Boeing wants the young Embraer engeneers to help on the new 797.

But Embraer has never done anything like de 797.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 2817
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:07 am

I can see Boeing's thinking on passing on the CS. The CS cockpit with its side sticks have more in common with Airbus than Boeing. The CS would had been an orphan just the 717 was.
 
User avatar
YuriMG2
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:30 am

william wrote:
I can see Boeing's thinking on passing on the CS. The CS cockpit with its side sticks have more in common with Airbus than Boeing. The CS would had been an orphan just the 717 was.


The article says there was a agreement between B and E about their cockpit...
 
User avatar
YuriMG2
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:09 am

I think Boeing intentions are very clear:

Take Over than Game Over, just like has happened before.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 712
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:27 am

It's very unlikely that Boeing needs any of the Embraer engineering talent for the MOM. But it's a nice line to sell the deal.
Boeing will probably work with the Japanese Heavies on the MOM and if a deal with Embraer goes through, Boeing will position the Ejet against the Cseries. Also, some aluminium assemblies on future aircraft projects could be given to Brazil but I don't see any significant CFRP work being given.

Good for Embraer if a deal materialises. They're just too small by themselves.
 
BREECH
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:47 am

https://oglobo.globo.com/economia/capit ... r-22221325
Brazil says, Nao, obrigado. :-))) Wall Street Journal has yet again proven that it's nothing but a financial tabloid feeding off the lowest kind of rumors. Personally, I didn't any further proof.

In their desperation to mitigate the damage done by Airbus and Bombardier, Boeing ran to Embraer to beg them to sell the company. The irony of this incredible fiasco is that back in 2001, Boeing HAD a share in exactly the kind of project they need now. They were part of the Sukhoi Superjet group. But Boeing in their habitual arrogance have left the project. Oh, how will they regret it now. If only they stayed, they'd now have an airplane that only needs some marketing to launch.
Last edited by BREECH on Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:47 am

Of course Brazilian government says no. It's pretty clear that Boeing cannot buy Embraer. Both companies should focus on partnership instead.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
BREECH
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:59 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Of course Brazilian government says no. It's pretty clear that Boeing cannot buy Embraer. Both companies should focus on partnership instead.

Boeing MUST focus on this partnership, they have very few options otherwise. But what's in it for Embraer? Boeing has no experience in this market. Boeing has no experience in developing this kind of airplanes. Embraer doesn't need any help with any of their projects, E2 is ready for production. Again, Boeing could go to Sukhoi. They are now developing Superjet 130 and would really benefit from Boeing's expertise. But due to economic sanctions implemented in Obama's and Trump's infinite wisdom, that would be VERY problematic. The USA has shot itself in the foot... again.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:38 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
Sure it´s (Embraer) our "crown jewel".
And the japaneses are trying to create their own ...

Wrong; Mitsubishi is already a crown jewel in Japan, and has been for many years, and will be for many more, with or without a successful MRJ.

But as long as you, (and Breech) continue to focus on just one small aspect of Mitsubishi's business - an aspect where Embraer currently has a dominant position (so that it keeps your dreams intact), then you will sleep-walk into the same pickle as Boeing. I cannot guarantee that the MRJ will be a success, but please stop dismissing one of the world's most respected companies as if they were a second-rate player.


Yes Mitsubishi is a true crown jewel in Japan. And of course people focus on a single aspect because aviation is the main subject on this forum. Hence it's difficult to ignore that MRJ management has been a real fiasco. It was supposed to enter service in 2013, now it will be 2020. As a result, the Embraer E-Jet E2 will enter service before the MRJ. Mitsubishi had so much pride that it deliberately ignored design flaws.

lightsaber wrote:
The big issue for Embraer is that the E2-175 orders are a ghost order; The SkyWest order cannot be completed. The MRJ has an empty weight a few thousand pounds lighter than the E2-175, so if there are concessions to weight, the MRJ has the advantage. This isn't the E-170/175 vs CR7/CR9 where the comfort and efficiencies of the E-jets overcame the weight advantage of of the CRJ.


However, due to the redesign, the MRJ has gained weight (about 500 kg / 1100 lbs). That cannot be ignored.

Waterbomber wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:

Waterbomber wrote:
From below, the MRJ is proving very competitive in sales

You're joking, aren´t you ???


No, not at all.
MRJ 90 orders: 223
E175-E2 orders: 100

MRJ total orders: 223
E2 total orders: 233


The MRJ program is about to lose 10% of its backlog: Swift Air may cancel Eastern Air Lines MRJ-90 order. In addition to that, Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation recently expressed it doesn't expect any new sales in 2018.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:41 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Also, some aluminium assemblies on future aircraft projects could be given to Brazil but I don't see any significant CFRP work being given.


Embraer has long been developing and producing CFRP products ...

Waterbomber wrote:
Good for Embraer if a deal materialises. They're just too small by themselves.


Too small ??? Third of the world !!!
Last edited by EMBSPBR on Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:43 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Of course Brazilian government says no. It's pretty clear that Boeing cannot buy Embraer. Both companies should focus on partnership instead.


Source: http://www.valor.com.br/empresas/525533 ... gn=materia

Excert:

"There are a few obstacles that can make the business unfeasible. Should an offer to buy shares go ahead, it will be necessary to negotiate with the current shareholders of Embraer the withdrawal of so-called "venom pills" from the by-laws, devices that were included at the time of the spraying of the manufacturer's capital with the objective of hindering control hostile.

Generally, the devices impose a 50% premium on valuation that is made of Embraer, which makes the transaction costly for Boeing.

Another complex aspect of the business would be the approval by competitive bodies worldwide."
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:53 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
E vs. M... it had to happen eventually.
Embraer is really worried about the MRJ.


Embraer is years ahead of Mitsubishi and its MRJ.

The only competing products are E175-E2 and MRJ-90, and even if there is no agreement on the current limitations of scope clauses, there will be no MRJ-90 or E175-E2 on the American market. However, we have the option of the E175-E1, which holds almost 80% of sales in its category in the USA.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:57 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
The MRJ program is about to lose 10% of its backlog: Swift Air may cancel Eastern Air Lines MRJ-90 order. In addition to that, Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation recently expressed it doesn't expect any new sales in 2018.


With no relax on the "scope clauses" we won´t see neither the MRJ90 nor the E175-E2 flying with regionals in US.

Source:
https://leehamnews.com/2017/01/18/regio ... e-clauses/
"The regional market and scope clauses"

MRJ90 orders:
TransState Holding: (-) 50
Skywest: (-) 100
Net orders: 73

E2 total orders (yes, the E2 is a family): 233 plus 30 Paris Air Show orders and commitments (not mentioned by wikipedia): 263 (-) 100 E175-E2 for Skywest - Net orders: 163.
http://atwonline.com/paris-air-show-201 ... -38-e-jets
 
BREECH
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:03 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Boeing will position the Ejet against the Cseries.

And today it's positioned against what? BMW 3 series?

Waterbomber wrote:
They're just too small by themselves.

Oh, man, you should try knitting to keep your fingers occupied. :-D
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
tphuang
Posts: 1936
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:39 pm

good for Brazil, no reason to give an inch on embraer. If Boeing wants to cooperate, should be done in an equitable partnership rather than anything close to a takeover.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 712
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:40 pm

BREECH wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Boeing will position the Ejet against the Cseries.

And today it's positioned against what? BMW 3 series?

Waterbomber wrote:
They're just too small by themselves.

Oh, man, you should try knitting to keep your fingers occupied. :-D


Today, the E-Jet is positioned against itself. It can't compete against the Cseries and the RJ market is essentially dead despite cheap oil prices.
Nobody is ordering Ejets by the hundreds, and many operators are getting rid of them after serving lesss tha half their useful lives.
The production rate of the entire family is about 100 units a year. Not bad, but it's bread crumbs compared to Airbus and Boeing.
With the Cseries under Airbus management and the Japanese Heavies serious about the MRJ, in 5 years, Embraer will become what Bombardier is today.

Dump your pride and take the Boeing deal...
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:48 pm

Nobody is ordering CSeries and MRJ aircraft by the hundreds either. Whether Airbus can change CSeries sales remains to be seen. The market may not be as big as some people believe.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
BREECH
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:07 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Today, the E-Jet is positioned against itself. It can't compete against the Cseries and the RJ market is essentially dead despite cheap oil prices.

Any real world evidence of that?
Waterbomber wrote:
Nobody is ordering Ejets by the hundreds, and many operators are getting rid of them after serving lesss tha half their useful lives.

Nobody's ordering E-jets by the hundred because companies who use them are usually quite small. It's not called regional jet for nothing. However, Republic has 185. Can that be counted as "by the hundreds"? If planespotters database is any indication, about 30 E-jets are stored and about 10 written off. Out of over 1500 produced. Where do you get your information if I may ask?

Waterbomber wrote:
The production rate of the entire family is about 100 units a year. Not bad, but it's bread crumbs compared to Airbus and Boeing.

Not bad indeed! A hundred planes a year is what we in the scientific world call A LOT. Compared to Airbus and Boeing, Embraer doesn't spend as much developing those planes and their revenue-to-profit rate is actually higher than them.

Waterbomber wrote:
With the Cseries under Airbus management and the Japanese Heavies serious about the MRJ, in 5 years, Embraer will become what Bombardier is today.

"Japanese Heavies" (whatever that is) has been "serious about MRJ" for 15 years. It's been 3 years since its first flight and none were delivered yet. Also, you forgot to mention Kawasaki YPX. Another "Japanese Heavy" who is "serious about". I also remember Honda was "serious about" some kind of an airplane.

Airbus is a good company with strong sales force but they've never worked in this market sector so they'll need quite some time to pick up the pace. And the first problem they need to solve is relocating the production line to fulfill Delta's orders. That won't be done over the weekend, either. When Embraer started their whole regional jet endeavor, they had to compete against a helluva lot of established companies. Bombardier, Dornier, Fokker, McDonnel-Douglas and later Boeing. 20 years later half of those companies are dead, and Embraer is still going. And with a strong product like E2, they have nothing to worry about. Nothing includes the C-series. A strong product and a respectable competitor, yes, but still has to prove its worth.

Waterbomber wrote:
Dump your pride and take the Boeing deal...

Dump your arrogance and accept defeat.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
User avatar
Jayafe
Posts: 1216
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:07 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Dump your pride and take the Boeing deal...


You mean the pride that took Boeing to go to Embraer asking for a partnership? :bouncy:
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:11 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Dump your pride and take the Boeing deal...


If the E-Jet E2 has no market as you suggest, what makes you believe Boeing will be able to sell the aircraft?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:15 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Today, the E-Jet is positioned against itself. It can't compete against the Cseries


Yes, it can
And is doing it so ...


Waterbomber wrote:
the RJ market is essentially dead despite cheap oil prices.


No, it is not.
If there is a market, it will never be dead:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382661




Waterbomber wrote:
Nobody is ordering Ejets by the hundreds


Nobody is ordering the MRJ or the CSeries either ...
You can point me out "all those orders" made for both in the last year: the order from Egyptair, right ???

Those only for the E175:

https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news# ... ional-e175
https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news# ... raer-fleet
https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news# ... om-skywest
https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news# ... om-skywest
https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news# ... -ten-e175s


Waterbomber wrote:
Not bad, but it's bread crumbs compared to Airbus and Boeing.


You can´t compare the market of A & B with the regional market.

Oranges to oranges.
Apples to Apples ...

Your problem is that your comments are devoid of facts and are based only on your personal opinion, which is valid for you only ...

Want to argue, bring us facts !!!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7418
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:16 pm

Why is there always the talk about takeover? I would think a JV would be far more likely. A JV regarding the E-Jet series and other similar new frames and leaving the military side alone.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:18 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Nobody is ordering CSeries and MRJ aircraft by the hundreds either. Whether Airbus can change CSeries sales remains to be seen. The market may not be as big as some people believe.


Completely true !!!

Different markets ...

As I said before:
- oranges to oranges
- apples to apples

But the person up there insists otherwise ...
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:24 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Dump your pride and take the Boeing deal...


If the E-Jet E2 has no market as you suggest, what makes you believe Boeing will be able to sell the aircraft?


"Words at wind":

That's what we say when we have no arguments and we speak by speaking.

It's the case of Waterbomber ... :liar:
 
BREECH
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:33 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Why is there always the talk about takeover? I would think a JV would be far more likely. A JV regarding the E-Jet series and other similar new frames and leaving the military side alone.

The talk about takeover started when the WSJ (We're Simply Junk) said that Boeing is in "takeover talks" with Embraer and Boeing jumped on the train and confirmed it. Embraer doesn't need a joint-venture with Boeing. What could Boeing possibly bring to the party? Sales? Embraer doesn't need help with that and, considering the tremendous fiasco with B717, I don't think Boeing is competent in that area. Composites expertise? Embraer just finished developing E2, so it's too late to change anything for this generation, and by the time they need a new iteration, we'll see how much help they'll need. Boeing has absolutely nothing to offer to lure Embraer into a JV, let alone a takeover.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 18800
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:39 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Nobody is ordering CSeries and MRJ aircraft by the hundreds either. Whether Airbus can change CSeries sales remains to be seen. The market may not be as big as some people believe.

Indeed. A and B have narrowbody backlogs in the many of thousands with nice profit margins on sales and support. Here we see products struggling to have backlogs of a few hundreds and the market split by many different players with all players sacrificing profit to get some market credibility. The acknowledged up-gauging of aircraft sizes works against this market. A had no interest here till BBD had no choice but give them half the program for $1. IMHO Boeing would be best off steering clear. The only "wildcard" is if they truly see some capabilities that EMB has that would strongly advantage the NMA, but it's hard to see what those capabilities could be.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:45 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Nobody is ordering CSeries and MRJ aircraft by the hundreds either. Whether Airbus can change CSeries sales remains to be seen. The market may not be as big as some people believe.


Nor E2, nor CSeries (even with Airbus behind), neither MRJ will sell by hundreds.
It´s a small market compared to A & B:

Regional market (including turboprops)"
Source: https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... Years.html

Extract:
"Forecast International projects that a total of 5,728 regional aircraft will be produced in the 15-year period from 2017 through 2031, including both regional jets and regional turboprop airliners. The value of this production is estimated at $213 billion, as calculated in constant 2017 U.S. dollars."

Single aisle:
Source:http://www.nasdaq.com/article/20-year-market-outlook-for-jetliners-airbus-vs-boeing-cm802351

Extract:
"Airbus expects single-aisle jets to be the major driver behind demand growth, comprising more than 70% of the total projection. This translates into worldwide demand for 24,810 single-aisle jets, worth $2.4 trillion, in the next 20 years."
"Boeing forecasted that the world will need 39,620 new planes, worth $5.9 trillion, between 2016 and 2035. Of the total units, 43% of the demand will be for the replacement of older, less-efficient aircraft. The company added that it expects single-aisle jets to be the major driver behind demand growth, comprising 71% of the total projection. This translates into worldwide demand for 28,140 single-aisle jets, worth $3 trillion, in the next 20 years."
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:07 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
The RJ market is essentially dead despite cheap oil prices.


Source: http://aviationweek.com/crossover-narro ... 2b1e395f35

Excerpt:
"At the other end of the crossover jet market, however, there is growing momentum on the effect that these new jets, with quieter, more efficient engines, are set to have on the turboprop market. There has always been a flight distance where a jet becomes more efficient than a turboprop on a route. However, crossover jets are now pushing that point of intersection to a lower figure and airlines are actually switching to crossover jets to serve routes that were once considered purely the domain of turboprops."
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:10 pm

BREECH wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Why is there always the talk about takeover? I would think a JV would be far more likely. A JV regarding the E-Jet series and other similar new frames and leaving the military side alone.

The talk about takeover started when the WSJ (We're Simply Junk) said that Boeing is in "takeover talks" with Embraer and Boeing jumped on the train and confirmed it. Embraer doesn't need a joint-venture with Boeing. What could Boeing possibly bring to the party? Sales? Embraer doesn't need help with that and, considering the tremendous fiasco with B717, I don't think Boeing is competent in that area. Composites expertise? Embraer just finished developing E2, so it's too late to change anything for this generation, and by the time they need a new iteration, we'll see how much help they'll need. Boeing has absolutely nothing to offer to lure Embraer into a JV, let alone a takeover.


A JV on new commercial jet (797???!!!) will be very welcomed.

Otherwise, thanks, we pass ...
 
BREECH
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:46 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
BREECH wrote:
A JV on new commercial jet (797???!!!) will be very welcomed.

That would actually be interesting. If Boeing offers a share in the profits, Embraer may get interested. And it'd be a great plane. Embraer is amazing at making weird but right decisions. Like taking a fighter engine and use on a regional jet. BEAUTIFUL move. Parts anywhere, cheap and reliable.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:53 pm

BREECH wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
BREECH wrote:
A JV on new commercial jet (797???!!!) will be very welcomed.

That would actually be interesting. If Boeing offers a share in the profits, Embraer may get interested. And it'd be a great plane. Embraer is amazing at making weird but right decisions. Like taking a fighter engine and use on a regional jet. BEAUTIFUL move. Parts anywhere, cheap and reliable.


It is as we say here in Brazil:
"extracting milk from stone" ...
 
User avatar
PPVLC
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 12:07 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:34 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
The talks are on hold as the parties await word from the Brazilian government on whether it would sign off on the combination. The government has a so-called golden share in Embraer that gives it veto powers over such a transaction.

Embraer is a crown-jewel of Brazilian industry, and it’s far from guaranteed the government would sign off; therefore there’s an even higher probability than in a typical merger negotiation that there won’t be any deal. Indeed, some of the people cautioned it is unlikely the talks will be revived.


Would the Brazilian government really sell its crown-jewel?


It depends on the size of the bribe.
Cabin crew L188 707 727 737 767 A300 DC10 MD11 777 747
 
User avatar
YuriMG2
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:30 pm

"O governo não cederá o controle acionário da Embraer. Como vai ser a parceria, ainda não sabemos", disse Etchegoyen a jornalistas durante evento de segurança no Rio de Janeiro.... -

https://economia.uol.com.br/noticias/re ... copiaecola

- The government wont give away the control of Embraer. But we still dont know how this partnership will be.
 
User avatar
EMBSPBR
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:03 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:11 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
" The government wont give away the control of Embraer. But we still dont know how this partnership will be.


Partnership ???
Which partnership ???
There is no partnership ...

There is only Boeing approaching Embraer and playing its game ...

I am going to ask a question that I made in a similar forum in portuguese:

"Where were all the experts before this matter came to light?
What did they say before? "

Now everyone wants to say what the future of Embraer will be without even knowing it ...

It's like the colleague BREECH said above:
"The talk about takeover started when the WSJ (We're Simply Junk) said that Boeing is in "takeover talks" with Embraer and Boeing jumped on the train and confirmed it. Embraer doesn't need a joint-venture with Boeing."

Period.
 
User avatar
YuriMG2
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:47 pm

Those are not my words... you should ask him about what partnership he is talking about.

What I understood is that there will be no takeover cuz the government will veto it, but if Boeing wants to partner with Embraer, deeper than it already does, the government wont stand in the way.
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 14

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos