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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:27 pm

brindabella wrote:
My attention was drawn by:
1) The announcement of the DL sale (seemingly a great step forward for the C-series,and welcomed by many, including me).
2) A subsequent notification by Bombi to the markets that the sale would incur a forward loss of !/2 Billion dollars.

Can you find a link to that news release? (Pretty please :D )

brindabella wrote:
A very large loss for a Company the size of Bombi; and it made the DL sale seem like a significant gamble.
Which might sink Bombi if it did not come off.

As I recall the whole deal was worth $5billion+, so $½billion is just 10%.
Yes it is a large amount for a small company, but in context, a 10% discount to secure this deal is not so outrageous. (IMO)

ps I prefer the term "discount", as "loss" is a very contentious description. BBD could have "lost" a whole lot more if they didn't land this deal, so it's all relative. However, if BBD themselves used the term "loss" I guess I should forgive you. :D
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:45 pm

Planesmart wrote:
Boeing showed their hand during and after negotiations with Bombardier. The motivation was to neutralise competition, not to nurture a small jet family.

And the Reuters article linked above says:

Observers say the two managements are culturally close and broadly in step on issues like trade, where they are waging parallel battles against alleged Bombardier subsidies.


Enemy of my enemy is my friend...
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brindabella
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:48 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
Planesmart wrote:

Boeing showed their hand during and after negotiations with Bombardier. The motivation was to neutralise competition, not to nurture a small jet family.


Do you really believe on that ???
You said on the Boeing´s side.
But did you thought on Embraer´s side ???
Come on ...[/quote]res\

I always find the posts from Planesmart interesting and informative, but no, he very obviously does not love Boeing.

However thanks for post #143 above .

Many great posts on this subject: it seems the inevitable consolidation is under way:

-Bombi will disappear.
-Airbus will pick-up a nice wing, at least; but seemingly also a lot of headaches.

EMB is in a far better position than Bombi was.

(And deservedly so).

I previously knew zip about the many joint activities between Boeing and EMB; and certainly not that closer activity/merger discussions were already under way.
In that light it all makes ever-closer relations look ever more sensible.
(And Temer was probably already "clued-in").


However I think we should see the Nationalistic/chauvinistic politics as just an inevitable hurdle to be intelligently surmounted.
(EVERY COUNTRY HAS THE SAME MANIFESTATION).

It seems the problem then comes down to:

1) given that it looks inevitable; EMB will (and should) retain both it's own identity and it's specialisation in 50-130 seat airliners. EMB is really good at this market (better than Bombi, obviously ). Boeing would be nuts to meddle or change anything here.

2) better for the (momentary) politics if EMB is seen to be a proudly, independently Brazilian asset; yet, simultaneously:

3) in the wider markets and big airlines, it is far, far better for EMB (and Brazil) if it is GLOBALLY identifiable as a part of Boeing and to which Boeing is completely committed in the long term. So somehow a solution is needed whereby smaller operators know that EMB is still there & deploying it's expertise; and yet the biggies know Boeing stands alongside EMB. Most credible if they are far more than JV partners.

4) finally, if you haven't followed that, RJMAZ has had some great input in the thread about 797 office; at least he has greatly expanded my thinking and has an intriguing idea that the NSA will start just above the the C-series.

So, let's see - Boeing does that one, and the EMB office (however titled) does the C-series competitor.

Assembly-lines in both countries and wing/the rest as shared workload.

?

cheers
Billy
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:00 pm

edu2703 wrote:
Unfortunately, most Brazilians fail to see the benefits of negotiation and can only imagine the worst scenario for Embraer.


Show me some coops where the non US party did not get the burnt end of the stick?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:02 pm

WIederling wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
Unfortunately, most Brazilians fail to see the benefits of negotiation and can only imagine the worst scenario for Embraer.


Show me some coops where the non US party did not get the burnt end of the stick?

DaimlerChrysler.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:08 pm

E doesn't really need B it seems.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:26 pm

Wouldn't it be funny if Airbus comes in and swoops up Embraer as well?
Unlikely but not impossible after all, as the E2 series is positioned below the CS300 and the CS100 isn't really what Airbus and airlines are pushing for.
They could for instance make a swap: a JV share in the E2 program in exchange for a JV share in the ATR.

Embraer is in quite a desperate situation IMO.
The E2's order book divided over 3 models is 33% smaller than the Cseries and not a single blue chip airline ordered it.
In addition, Embraer has quite high development costs as all 3 variants have major differences, such as different wings.
From below, the MRJ is proving very competitive in sales, from above the Cseries is flying high under Airbus' wing and also proving very reliable and popular with Ejet customers such as Lufthansa.
I think that Embraer is done if they don't make a move now.
 
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:26 pm

Polot wrote:
WIederling wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
Unfortunately, most Brazilians fail to see the benefits of negotiation and can only imagine the worst scenario for Embraer.


Show me some coops where the non US party did not get the burnt end of the stick?

DaimlerChrysler.


ROFL.
Cost Daimler dearly ( lots of liabilities stayed with them after the divorce).
Was a dumb idea from the get go.

Though in context of Chrysler one could make a case for FIAT / Chrysler being at least mutually beneficial coop.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
Polot wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Show me some coops where the non US party did not get the burnt end of the stick?

DaimlerChrysler.


ROFL.
Cost Daimler dearly ( lots of liabilities stayed with them after the divorce).
Was a dumb idea from the get go.

Though in context of Chrysler one could make a case for FIAT / Chrysler being at least mutually beneficial coop.

And it basically killed Chrysler. You are right though it was a dumb idea from the start, their cultures never meshed.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:15 pm

Polot wrote:
And it basically killed Chrysler. You are right though it was a dumb idea from the start, their cultures never meshed.


Chrysler was toast from the get go.
do they actually sell something useful that is not made in Japan, later Korea (and designed in either Korea or Germany)?
( before FIAT started to manage their stuff?)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:13 pm

keesje wrote:
E doesn't really need B it seems.

Not at this moment.
In the future ??? Maybe ...

Waterbomber wrote:
Embraer is in quite a desperate situation IMO.

No, we are not.

Waterbomber wrote:
E2's order book divided over 3 models is 33% smaller than the Cseries and not a single blue chip airline ordered it.

The last sale of CSeries pre CSALP was December 2016.
About the E2 sales happened the same with E1 in the beginning. And now it stands over 1.800 airplanes sold.

Waterbomber wrote:
In addition, Embraer has quite high development costs as all 3 variants have major differences, such as different wings.

Probably you don´t know what are talking to. You can compare with the CSeries 100/300 development costs if do you want to.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-Jet_E2_family
    Embraer: E-Jet E2 family
      E-Jet E2 family: E175/E190/E195-E2
      Status: In development
      Program cost: $1.7 billion

And more about the wings that you probably unknow:
As an example, the rigs for the wing construction of the current Ejets are different for each model of the E170, E175, E190 and E195 series and requiring distinct construction lines.
For the E2 family, the rig is the same for the three models, adjusted only for the wing of each model, which differ in size and form.
This is a automatic process that requires just a few minutes and helps to lower the costs on the wings construction process.

Waterbomber wrote:
From below, the MRJ is proving very competitive in sales

You're joking, aren´t you ???
 
Busyboy2
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:15 pm

bob75013 wrote:
DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Revelation wrote:
[To state the obvious, WN already had the ~117 seat Boeing 717 / MD95 fleet they got from AirTran and clearly thought they could not operate it profitably, to the point where they underwrote DL's acquisition of the fleet. I don't see them becoming EMB/BBD customers any time soon.


The 717 is an older aircraft, plus WN's pilots refused to approve size-appropriate rates for flying it. So it apparently didn't fit their economics. I suspect that WN and their unions could figure something out if the right aircraft comes along and they see growth potential.

Jim


IMO WN will eventually bring another aircraft into the fleet, but it won't be a 100 seater. It'll be larger with enough range to fly to more places in South America, from more places to Hawaii, and perhaps finally to Europe. WN does a great job of following the money and there's lots more money flying to the above than in flying 100 seaters. Can anyone say MOM?


This part is correct.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:02 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:

Waterbomber wrote:
From below, the MRJ is proving very competitive in sales

You're joking, aren´t you ???


No, not at all.
MRJ 90 orders: 223
E175-E2 orders: 100

MRJ total orders: 223
E2 total orders: 233

After Skywest gets their first MRJ's and experiences Japanese reliability, I don't think that there is any chance for a follow-on order for the E175. The MRJ is delayed, but because they want to get it 100% right.

The E175 already looks like a fat dinosaur compared to the MRJ.


Image
Wikipedia
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:31 am

Waterbomber wrote:
No, not at all.
MRJ 90 orders: 223
E175-E2 orders: 100


With no relax on the "scope clauses" we won´t see neither the MRJ90 nor the E175-E2 flying with regionals in US.

Source:
https://leehamnews.com/2017/01/18/regio ... e-clauses/
"The regional market and scope clauses"

MRJ90 orders:
TransState Holding: (-) 50
Skywest: (-) 100
Net orders: 73

E2 total orders: 233 plus 30 Paris Air Show orders and commitments (not mentioned by wikipedia): 263 (-) 100 E175-E2 for Skywest - Net orders: 163.
http://atwonline.com/paris-air-show-201 ... -38-e-jets

Waterbomber wrote:
After Skywest gets their first MRJ's and experiences Japanese reliability, I don't think that there is any chance for a follow-on order for the E175.


Again: with no relax on the "scope clauses" we won´t see neither the MRJ90 nor the E175-E2 flying with regionals in US.
If it happens, then we will see both E175 and E175-E2 new orders.

Waterbomber wrote:
MRJ is delayed, but because they want to get it 100% right.


No, is delayed because they don´t have the Embraer´s expertise and because they mess up with the project.
Result: they had to call foreing help, including from Brazil.

Waterbomber wrote:
E175 already looks like a fat dinosaur compared to the MRJ.


I tell you why the E175 looks a fat dinosaur:

Source: https://www.yahoo.com/news/embraer-sell ... 854253.htm
"The company noted the E175 enjoys an 80 percent share of net orders in North America since 2013."

And will be "fatter": orders only in the present year:
https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news#/15-embraer-and-american-airlines-sign-a-contract-for-four-additional-e175
https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news#/29-fuji-dream-airlines-orders-up-to-six-e175-to-its-all-embraer-fleet
https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news#/88-embraer-announces-firm-order-for-25-e-jets-from-skywest
https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news#/95-embraer-announces-firm-order-for-20-e-jets-from-skywest
https://www.embraer.com/global/en/news#/4059-embraer-and-american-airlines-sign-a-contract-for-ten-e175s

And, maybe you can help me here with the latest MRJ90/70 order ,,,
 
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:17 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
For the E2 family, the rig is the same for the three models, adjusted only for the wing of each model, which differ in size and form.
This is a automatic process that requires just a few minutes and helps to lower the costs on the wings construction process.


This is comparable to what Airbus introduced with that new universal CNC controlled wing jig for the A340NG!? ~2000?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Planesmart
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:09 pm

Revelation wrote:
Planesmart wrote:
Boeing showed their hand during and after negotiations with Bombardier. The motivation was to neutralise competition, not to nurture a small jet family.

And the Reuters article linked above says:

Observers say the two managements are culturally close and broadly in step on issues like trade, where they are waging parallel battles against alleged Bombardier subsidies.


Enemy of my enemy is my friend...

The observers = Boeing press release.

Would you expect them to say anything else? Having just played bridesmaid to Airbus with Bombardier, they are going to accentuate any positives, irrespective of accuracy.
 
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:02 pm

brindabella wrote:
Planesmart wrote:

Boeing showed their hand during and after negotiations with Bombardier. The motivation was to neutralise competition, not to nurture a small jet family.

I always find the posts from Planesmart interesting and informative, but no, he very obviously does not love Boeing.[/quote]
Many thanks.

I'm the product of the environment I've worked through. When start ups were denied access to finance, aircraft and support. Had to pay cash upfront for fuel and ground support. Look at the tactics used against Laker. And EK when they started. When anti-European/Boeing friendly engineers would ground an A300 at the gate with trivial defects (like galley, interior light and inflight video defects) but allow a 767, L1011 or DC10 to fly with the same defects.

Boeing is the most frustrating company. They were the global, dominant force in commercial aviation, and squandered it. They made extensive use of negative marketing - appropriate in those times. But the tactics didn't work, and are certainly not appropriate when you are more evenly matched.

The competition was from three European countries, communicating in three languages, building in three countries, with no track record. How hard is it not to retain your dominant position against that combination, even if only half listening to staff and customers, when you have a military safety net and sympathetic federal and state support?

But they haven't listened, reinvested or been innovative.

It's what happens when they ceased to be an aerospace company, and simply became a mega corporate. When senior management have scant regard for history, and more importantly living and recreating the history as a future vision, where innovators and engineers are placed on a pedestal.

I'm no engineer. My background is in finance and best practice.

Obviously, the new kid on the block has to be the innovator in engineering, solutions, customer responsiveness, finance, packaging....
And the old man on the street tends to be the opposite. But a point is reached, when the new rival, reaches say 30% market share, and the established business needs to re-invent themselves. Or even acquire some of the mojo from the new player.

But not at Boeing. They are still in negative marketing mode. We tried to acquire Bombardier. We missed out, so after all it's Embraer that has the superior business that fits our culture and ethics.

All Embraer needs is money, engineering assistance and marketing reach. They certainly don't need Boeing's top heavy, blinkered senior management influence. In fact it's the other way around - Boeing needs an injection of Embraer culture.

But read the posts here. Are posters saying E is brilliantly managed, running financially on the smell of an oily rag? Has a great product range, which could be even better with more technical assistance and dollars? Has brilliant people, who could re-energise Boeing? No. The old Boeing blinkered arrogance is alive and well on a.net.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:06 pm

Planesmart wrote:
Having just played bridesmaid to Airbus with Bombardier, they are going to accentuate any positives, irrespective of accuracy.

If we want to use matrimonial analogies, I'd say Boeing left BBD at the altar, and then BBD paid Airbus a huge dowry to get the ring on the finger. Some times that works, other times, not so much.

Planesmart wrote:
But read the posts here. Are posters saying E is brilliantly managed, running financially on the smell of an oily rag? Has a great product range, which could be even better with more technical assistance and dollars? Has brilliant people, who could re-energise Boeing? No. The old Boeing blinkered arrogance is alive and well on a.net.

And BBD? Betting their company on CS and losing, with the only viable course of action to give away their business for some hope of future return? Betting it all on a 100 seater when it's pretty clear the market to support a clean sheet in that space is marginal at best? If Airbus takes BBD management into their culture and they get the upper hand, be prepared for some potential train wrecks (get it, train wrecks?)! :D

I value your posts (even sent you a PM saying so) and your perspective. I get it that Boeing is overly conservative to some people's tastes. Airbus has taken many mighty gambles and has won enough of them to get themselves a seat at the duopoly table. Boeing took those gambles much further in its past and now is a lot more conservative. Time will tell what the new Airbus regime looks like going forward. You've got to admit there's room for some concern looking forward, as pretty much the entire generation of people who've lead Airbus for the last couple of decades is retiring or leaving.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
Elementalism
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:28 pm

If only Boeing had an aircraft originally designed for this space. Or maybe if they purchased one from a rival at some point in the past. Imagine how they wouldnt need to be in negotiations.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:08 pm

Revelation wrote:
I get it that Boeing is overly conservative to some people's tastes. Airbus has taken many mighty gambles and has won enough of them to get themselves a seat at the duopoly table. Boeing took those gambles much further in its past and now is a lot more conservative. Time will tell what the new Airbus regime looks like going forward. You've got to admit there's room for some concern looking forward, as pretty much the entire generation of people who've lead Airbus for the last couple of decades is retiring or leaving.

Inevitable the Airbus cycle will follow the Boeing cycle to some degree. Hard times make corporates very conservative. Airbus will become more conservative due to A380 and senior management issues. Boeing is already super financially conservative.

Interesting to login to a.net in a decade. What will we see? 4-5 global airlines wagging the OEM's tails? 2 engine OEM's. 1 VLA manufacturer (an a A/B JV)? 1x global certification/airworthiness authority? Who will master / exploit environmental opportunities where others see cost and restrictions? Will the World's largest airline be internet-based, not owning or even operating aircraft? How and who will ensure mega corporates pay appropriate taxes, distributed globally and fairly?

Consolidation and domination are the names of the game. Is Boeing too US-centric and conservative to prosper/exploit opportunities outside North America?

As a guide to the future, follow the money and people? Two countries have a plan, investing above and below the radar, in people, software, mx, leasing, engines, finance................ Neither are in North America or Europe.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:05 pm

I don't see how Embraer fits in. They just don't make sense in the light of Boeings portfolio. To me, this looks like an ill-thought-out me-too reaction to Airbus' acquisition of the C-series. Lets face it, the CS300 slots perfectly into Airbus as a replacement for the A319, and the potential CS500 could replace the A320 from below one day. Somebody mentioned it in another thread, but if you reduce the width of the cabin insulation, the C-series will be the same width or wider than a 737, which would allow the CS100 to seat the same amount of passengers as the A319, and the CS300 the same amount as the A320.

Embraer just doesn't offer the same. The biggest E-jet is already as big as it feasibly can be, and it tops out at around 130 seats. It won't replace the non-selling 737-7. I am not convinced that Airbus got the C-series because they wanted to enter the regional jet market, but an Embraer-Boeing tie-up will result in Boeing getting a regional jet.

Planesmart wrote:
Inevitable the Airbus cycle will follow the Boeing cycle to some degree. Hard times make corporates very conservative. Airbus will become more conservative due to A380 and senior management issues. Boeing is already super financially conservative.


I disagree. Boeing has always had management issues. This was worsened when the McDonnell Douglas board took over Boeing in the 1990s. McDonnell Douglas grew fat and lazy by living off government contracts. They have an unbalanced management consisting of too many lobbyists and lawyers with no background in aviation. They might as well be running a bank. Airbus has much more balance, and traditionally always had.
 
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Byron1976
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:46 pm

As I can see, the scene is very different on Bombardier and Embraer. While BBD and canadian gov were with near dry pockets due to the slow sales of the C-Series, Embraer enjoy of a good moment with their actual products, and their E2 program, goes with no surprises. Embraer isn't looking for help, neither is in financial trouble. Many here mentions things about financial needs of the brazilian government, but this issues, doesn't affect (at least directly) to Embraer. If Boeing open their pockets to acquire Embraer, they will pay a lot more that Airbus have done for BBD.
On the other side, amazes me that Boeing and Airbus now seems to be in a rush for conquer a market, that both decided many years before to leave it to BBD and Embraer... Boeing and Airbus must have tons of market councelors and they never realized that the RJ market is important too?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:41 pm

Byron1976 wrote:
As I can see, the scene is very different on Bombardier and Embraer. While BBD and canadian gov were with near dry pockets due to the slow sales of the C-Series, Embraer enjoy of a good moment with their actual products, and their E2 program, goes with no surprises. Embraer isn't looking for help, neither is in financial trouble. Many here mentions things about financial needs of the brazilian government, but this issues, doesn't affect (at least directly) to Embraer. If Boeing open their pockets to acquire Embraer, they will pay a lot more that Airbus have done for BBD.

Boeing cannot acquire Embraer. At best Boeing can acquire 35% and the Brazilian government will retain its golden share.
On the other side, amazes me that Boeing and Airbus now seems to be in a rush for conquer a market, that both decided many years before to leave it to BBD and Embraer... Boeing and Airbus must have tons of market councelors and they never realized that the RJ market is important too?

I think both still fundamentally doubt the size of the 100-130 seat market. I think this story is largely narrative driven. A made a move therefore B is going to make a similar move. Narratives don't always come to fruition.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
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neutrino
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:03 pm

VSMUT wrote:
To me, this looks like an ill-thought-out me-too reaction to Airbus' acquisition of the C-series.

Except that Boeing was already in talks with Embraer before Airbus' acquisition of Bombardier, in whole or in part, whatever....according to a poster elsewhere.
I know that isn't concrete proof but you also cite other posters, don't you?
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
NameOmitted
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:38 pm

Planesmart wrote:
Interesting to login to a.net in a decade. What will we see?

Rumors of an imminent merger between AS and B6.

Elementalism wrote:
If only Boeing had an aircraft originally designed for this space. Or maybe if they purchased one from a rival at some point in the past. Imagine how they wouldnt need to be in negotiations.

Bring on the 737-100 MAX!
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:11 pm

A background note: We occasionally hear here that the only responsibility a corporation has is to its stockholders. Wall Street seems largely to support this, and financiers regularly wring huge amounts of money out of companies, often leaving them weakened or bankrupt. This might be called corporate capitalism, and is not a good thing.

Society grants (could I capitalize that word?) corporations certain legal rights and protections, not because it benefits stockholders, but because it benefits society as a whole. Boeing seems to practice corporate capitalism to an extreme, but obviously are not alone. Part of the answer is better laws regarding the rights of society versus the rights of corporations. Lobbyists, regulatory capture by industry, money as having rights all are part of the problem.

What is interesting in this case is the Embraer is seen as part of Brazil's social and capital structure, and Boeing sees only (largely) its responsibility to stockholders.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Nean1
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:27 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A background note: We occasionally hear here that the only responsibility a corporation has is to its stockholders. Wall Street seems largely to support this, and financiers regularly wring huge amounts of money out of companies, often leaving them weakened or bankrupt. This might be called corporate capitalism, and is not a good thing.

Society grants (could I capitalize that word?) corporations certain legal rights and protections, not because it benefits stockholders, but because it benefits society as a whole. Boeing seems to practice corporate capitalism to an extreme, but obviously are not alone. Part of the answer is better laws regarding the rights of society versus the rights of corporations. Lobbyists, regulatory capture by industry, money as having rights all are part of the problem.

What is interesting in this case is the Embraer is seen as part of Brazil's social and capital structure, and Boeing sees only (largely) its responsibility to stockholders.


Beautiful speech. I understand that most use this blog to attack Boeing for pursuing tariff protection that many other US companies have successfully pursued in the last 40 years.

The reason for this lack of concern in the US over Brazil is due to the direction of the movement. Boeing is interested in acquiring control under Embraer and not the other way around.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8044
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:34 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A background note: We occasionally hear here that the only responsibility a corporation has is to its stockholders. Wall Street seems largely to support this, and financiers regularly wring huge amounts of money out of companies, often leaving them weakened or bankrupt. This might be called corporate capitalism, and is not a good thing.

Society grants (could I capitalize that word?) corporations certain legal rights and protections, not because it benefits stockholders, but because it benefits society as a whole. Boeing seems to practice corporate capitalism to an extreme, but obviously are not alone. Part of the answer is better laws regarding the rights of society versus the rights of corporations. Lobbyists, regulatory capture by industry, money as having rights all are part of the problem.

What is interesting in this case is the Embraer is seen as part of Brazil's social and capital structure, and Boeing sees only (largely) its responsibility to stockholders.


Management's primary responsibility is to shareholders, the owners of the company. That doesn't mean that's their "only" responsibility. Financiers wringing money out of a company is obviously not in the interest of shareholders and managers need to keep an eye on it, or they should be replaced with more competent people.

What's going on here with Embraer is called protectionism rooted in nationalism. There is nothing wonderful about it. In fact, it's very much related to the economic pains Brazilians suffer by living in a relatively closed economy.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Nean1
Posts: 160
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:48 pm

Like most countries, the Brazilian government would only accept full control of its most important defense company if the alternative was to close it. With Embraer is in good financial health some intermediate alternative will have to be reached or there will be no agreement.

Having said that, I think there are some interesting opportunities in various segments:

Defense: Programs KC-390 (vs LM C-130) and A-29 (OA-X);
Small Jets: Use of flexible fleet of aircraft such as the 190 E2 and E195 E2 to complement single-aisle aircraft resulting in lower cost per trip and the most appropriate frequency.
Executive Jets: Use of Embraer facilities in Florida to do the internal finishing of the BBJ line.
New Technologies: Cabin with only 1 pilot, hybrid propulsion in aircraft ..
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8044
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:45 pm

TransStates Holding isn't doing very well. They're at risk of losing market share and even getting picked apart by competitors, so I'd say that MRJ order for 50 frames isn't in the least bit assured. Things can change of course. . .

SkyWest also seems to be consolidating as a large EJet operator. I would not be surprised if they never take delivery of those MRJs. Not to mention, many US airlines are scoped out and can't add many more large regional jets.

And lastly, Mitsubishi isn't know for their reliable cars like Toyota and Honda are. After the messy experiment called the MRJ, there are plenty of reasons to doubt a smooth EIS for this type. I'm not sure they are going to convince DL, UA and AA that this airplane will get their passengers on time to their destination.

Also, the MRJ90 competes with the E190 most directly, not the E175.
Last edited by PPVRA on Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:48 pm

"Management's primary responsibility is to shareholders, the owners of the company" This may be true for a privately own company, but even then society has the right and should exercise it to protect itself. It is and should be less true of a corporation - all of the privileges they enjoy over a privately held company are in return for certain benefits to society and the economy. A main one is all of the laws related to limited responsibility on the part of owners. There are a lot of good books out there on the development of corporations, most of which di not exist at the time the US Constitution was written.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8044
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:08 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
"Management's primary responsibility is to shareholders, the owners of the company" This may be true for a privately own company, but even then society has the right and should exercise it to protect itself. It is and should be less true of a corporation - all of the privileges they enjoy over a privately held company are in return for certain benefits to society and the economy. A main one is all of the laws related to limited responsibility on the part of owners. There are a lot of good books out there on the development of corporations, most of which di not exist at the time the US Constitution was written.


Your statement starts out extremely vague.

As far as limited liability, no it is not a problem. It's only fair that it exists, especially given the limited involvement in the day to day operations shareholders often have. Liability in that case needs to be apportioned to managers and employees who assume responsibility. Not saying the law is perfect as it stands, but the basic idea behind limited liability is fair and frankly, "limited" is really just a misnomer.

A basic contract defines obligations, which in effect is defining liability ie limiting liability.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 620
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:16 pm

PPVRA wrote:
And lastly, Mitsubishi isn't know for their reliable cars like Toyota and Honda are
:rotfl:
What planet have you been living on?

Mitsubishi Motors, the sixth-largest Japan-based car manufacturer.
Mitsubishi Atomic Industry, a nuclear power company.
Mitsubishi Chemical, the largest Japan-based chemicals company
Mitsubishi Power Systems, a power generation division
Nikon Corporation, specializing in optics and imaging.

Nothing reliable in that bunch?

In fact nothing to see here at all, nada, zilch, Zero......

Image
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8044
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:26 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
And lastly, Mitsubishi isn't know for their reliable cars like Toyota and Honda are
:rotfl:
What planet have you been living on?

Mitsubishi Motors, the sixth-largest Japan-based car manufacturer.
Mitsubishi Atomic Industry, a nuclear power company.
Mitsubishi Chemical, the largest Japan-based chemicals company
Mitsubishi Power Systems, a power generation division
Nikon Corporation, specializing in optics and imaging.

Nothing reliable in that bunch?

In fact nothing to see here at all, nada, zilch, Zero......

Image


I don't think Mitsubishi is a shit company. But they don't make cars as reliable as Toyota and Honda, and just because they make other products for heavy industries does not guarantee they can make a reliable airplane. They HAVE struggled.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:35 pm

Nean1 wrote:
to attack Boeing for pursuing tariff protection that many other US companies have successfully pursued in the last 40 years.


Was tariff protection ever helpful for the US beyond a year or two?
Tariffs on plain steel imports lead to the US steel industry degrading to being even more uncompetitive.
There still is this chickentax on small transporters ( VW Bully ) around. Did it help the US automobile industry
in the long run? All except Ford went broke.

Then dumping has up to now been seen as touching on commodity product. bicycles. not airlplanes that
essentially don't have a "local" market.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Nean1
Posts: 160
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:51 pm

WIederling wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
to attack Boeing for pursuing tariff protection that many other US companies have successfully pursued in the last 40 years.


Was tariff protection ever helpful for the US beyond a year or two?
Tariffs on plain steel imports lead to the US steel industry degrading to being even more uncompetitive.
There still is this chickentax on small transporters ( VW Bully ) around. Did it help the US automobile industry
in the long run? All except Ford went broke.

Then dumping has up to now been seen as touching on commodity product. bicycles. not airlplanes that
essentially don't have a "local" market.


Ok, double standards is fine.
 
Nean1
Posts: 160
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:01 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
And lastly, Mitsubishi isn't know for their reliable cars like Toyota and Honda are
:rotfl:
What planet have you been living on?

Mitsubishi Motors, the sixth-largest Japan-based car manufacturer.
Mitsubishi Atomic Industry, a nuclear power company.
Mitsubishi Chemical, the largest Japan-based chemicals company
Mitsubishi Power Systems, a power generation division
Nikon Corporation, specializing in optics and imaging.

Nothing reliable in that bunch?

In fact nothing to see here at all, nada, zilch, Zero......

Image


Me too company. Not stellar in anything.
 
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keesje
Posts: 10503
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:25 pm

Nean1 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
And lastly, Mitsubishi isn't know for their reliable cars like Toyota and Honda are
:rotfl:
What planet have you been living on?

Mitsubishi Motors, the sixth-largest Japan-based car manufacturer.
Mitsubishi Atomic Industry, a nuclear power company.
Mitsubishi Chemical, the largest Japan-based chemicals company
Mitsubishi Power Systems, a power generation division
Nikon Corporation, specializing in optics and imaging.

Nothing reliable in that bunch?

In fact nothing to see here at all, nada, zilch, Zero......

Image


Me too company. Not stellar in anything.


787 wingbox?

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Nean1
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:39 pm

MHI wants to be a Aircraft producer, not a component maker. The MRJ would fly with a composite wing, then change to a Al wing. Almost 10 year where are they?
The Leeham blog bring so many dreadfull stories that the posts were removed.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:42 pm

PPVRA wrote:
I don't think Mitsubishi is a shit company. But they don't make cars as reliable as Toyota and Honda, and just because they make other products for heavy industries does not guarantee they can make a reliable airplane. They HAVE struggled.

You are correct; Mitsubishi don't make cars that are as reliable as Toyota and Honda.
No Sir! In fact they make cars that are more reliable than Toyota and Honda.
And I'm not talking about one year in isolation; this is over 15 years.
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/mitsub ... -1.1205917

But the ridiculous thing is - you raised this issue, whereas I believe car manufacture is barely relevant.
On the other hand, having expertise in a variety of other industries, from small precision (Nikon Cameras) up to large/critical systems (Nuclear power) is much more likely to impress airline industry execs.

Mitsubishi Motors, the sixth-largest Japan-based car manufacturer.
Mitsubishi Atomic Industry, a nuclear power company.
Mitsubishi Chemical, the largest Japan-based chemicals company
Mitsubishi Power Systems, a power generation division
Nikon Corporation, specializing in optics and imaging.

Notice I haven't even mentioned their Aerospace operation with it's mix of indigenous and licence built designs, just like Embraer. Except where Embraer has history of producing various Piper aircraft under license, Mitsubishi were building F-4, F-15 and F-16 jets. Plus their own rockets, and satellites, and supersonic fighters, supersonic trainers, and cruise ships, and warships, and.....

Wikipedia wrote:
By December 2017, the MRJ test campaign was half done with 1,500 flight hours and less than 1% cancelled due to technical issues

Where is this supposed reliability issue? Just because you desperately need your claim to be true, doesn't make it a fact.
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 620
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:00 am

Nean1 wrote:
MHI wants to be a Aircraft producer, not a component maker.

It appears you have ZERO idea what you are talking about.
Image

But if that's too ancient, here are some other designs from them

Just remember, these are their own designs. In addition they build whole aircraft under license, so not just a component maker....
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:02 am

Nikon makes steppers, that's very high tech : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepper
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 620
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:18 am

Nean1 wrote:
<Mitsubishi>
Me too company. Not stellar in anything.

A most ironic choice of words by you, because some people might describe the Mitsubishi H-IIB rocket system as "stellar"Image

But if that's your idea of a "me too company", show me Embraer's space vehicle? All I could find was this....

I get that you are fiercely patriotic, but to dismiss the whole of Mitsubishi in the way you have is only just acceptable when you have a better product yourselves. Clearly you do not, so perhaps we could dispense with the mud-slinging?
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:47 am

I am confused how any of this relates to Embraer and Boeing potentially increasing their current levels of partnership.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 620
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Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:57 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
I am confused how any of this relates to Embraer and Boeing potentially increasing their current levels of partnership.

That is very fair comment. I can only direct you back to post #180 from PPVRA, where he poured cold custard over two existing MRJ orders, and then dissed the whole of Mitsubishi. If there is more than that, I confess I don't know who started it. My apologies for rambling on, trying to set the record straight, but that's because I believe in facts, not unfounded slander. Plus I'm learning stuff that I never knew before. And that's my final word on the matter. :wave:
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8044
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:59 am

keesje wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
:rotfl:
What planet have you been living on?

Mitsubishi Motors, the sixth-largest Japan-based car manufacturer.
Mitsubishi Atomic Industry, a nuclear power company.
Mitsubishi Chemical, the largest Japan-based chemicals company
Mitsubishi Power Systems, a power generation division
Nikon Corporation, specializing in optics and imaging.

Nothing reliable in that bunch?

In fact nothing to see here at all, nada, zilch, Zero......

Image


Me too company. Not stellar in anything.


787 wingbox?

Image


That’s a plus, and in fact they built the Ejet wings in the beginning. The wings had manufacturing quality problems and Embraer fired them.

Being a supplier is different than putting together the whole animal.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8044
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:04 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
I don't think Mitsubishi is a shit company. But they don't make cars as reliable as Toyota and Honda, and just because they make other products for heavy industries does not guarantee they can make a reliable airplane. They HAVE struggled.

You are correct; Mitsubishi don't make cars that are as reliable as Toyota and Honda.
No Sir! In fact they make cars that are more reliable than Toyota and Honda.
And I'm not talking about one year in isolation; this is over 15 years.
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/mitsub ... -1.1205917

But the ridiculous thing is - you raised this issue, whereas I believe car manufacture is barely relevant.
On the other hand, having expertise in a variety of other industries, from small precision (Nikon Cameras) up to large/critical systems (Nuclear power) is much more likely to impress airline industry execs.

Mitsubishi Motors, the sixth-largest Japan-based car manufacturer.
Mitsubishi Atomic Industry, a nuclear power company.
Mitsubishi Chemical, the largest Japan-based chemicals company
Mitsubishi Power Systems, a power generation division
Nikon Corporation, specializing in optics and imaging.

Notice I haven't even mentioned their Aerospace operation with it's mix of indigenous and licence built designs, just like Embraer. Except where Embraer has history of producing various Piper aircraft under license, Mitsubishi were building F-4, F-15 and F-16 jets. Plus their own rockets, and satellites, and supersonic fighters, supersonic trainers, and cruise ships, and warships, and.....

Wikipedia wrote:
By December 2017, the MRJ test campaign was half done with 1,500 flight hours and less than 1% cancelled due to technical issues

Where is this supposed reliability issue? Just because you desperately need your claim to be true, doesn't make it a fact.


If you believe that Wikipedia quote is an accurate representation of the MRJ’s flight test program, you haven’t been paying attention.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8044
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:23 am

PPVRA wrote:
keesje wrote:
Nean1 wrote:

Me too company. Not stellar in anything.


787 wingbox?

Image


That’s a plus, and in fact they built the Ejet wings in the beginning. The wings had manufacturing quality problems and Embraer fired them.

Being a supplier is different than putting together the whole animal.


Actually my mistake, it was Kawasaki heavy industries that was working with embraer on the wings, not Mitsubishi.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8044
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:29 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I am confused how any of this relates to Embraer and Boeing potentially increasing their current levels of partnership.

That is very fair comment. I can only direct you back to post #180 from PPVRA, where he poured cold custard over two existing MRJ orders, and then dissed the whole of Mitsubishi. If there is more than that, I confess I don't know who started it. My apologies for rambling on, trying to set the record straight, but that's because I believe in facts, not unfounded slander. Plus I'm learning stuff that I never knew before. And that's my final word on the matter. :wave:


If you don’t like my take of TSA and SkyWest, then perhaps the more common argument that the MRJ90 simply does not fit within scope should suffice. The MRJ70 also doesn’t fit, but perhaps there’s still time to modify the design.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Nean1
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Boeing has held takeover talks with Embraer: WSJ

Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:38 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
<Mitsubishi>
Me too company. Not stellar in anything.

A most ironic choice of words by you, because some people might describe the Mitsubishi H-IIB rocket system as "stellar"Image

But if that's your idea of a "me too company", show me Embraer's space vehicle? All I could find was this....

I get that you are fiercely patriotic, but to dismiss the whole of Mitsubishi in the way you have is only just acceptable when you have a better product yourselves. Clearly you do not, so perhaps we could dispense with the mud-slinging?


The MRJ project has received direct government support and from a select group of companies since 2003. It was officially launched in 2007 with expectation of certification in 2012. No customer should receive the aircraft before 2020 but the museum is already in operation.

I follow aviation blogs and I notice that we have very critical participants. It would be interesting to read their positive comments if Embraer presented such a remarkable performance.

Although the photos you posted seem striking the truly shocking issue is to understand how a company that has received a high magnitude government support and for so long can be so delayed in a regional jet program?

I do not know the answer, but I suspect that Japan's aerospace producers have grown accustomed to a customer who is not demanding on performance and deadlines, given the priority of keeping jobs and technology in the country.

With regard to civil certification, the recent experience of Russians, Chinese and Japanese is not remarkable, which makes me believe that previous military technology experience can give a false impression of capability.

Finally, I do not believe there is room for more than 3 companies worldwide producing regional jets and I think Mitusubishi aims to be number 4.

So I wish good luck to them.

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