BOAC1966
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BA 380 stuck in JNB

Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:39 am

G-XLEA BA380 has been stuck in JNB since 12th. Seems more than engine change ....not the ideal time of year to be one down but fortunately EE back from major check in MNL. Any news as to reason?
 
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MoKa777
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:53 am

So 3 A380s on the ground at JNB everyday? 2 normal ops and this 1?

I have not been pass JNB in a little while.
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FW200
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:21 pm

BOAC1966 wrote:
....not the ideal time of year to be one down but fortunately EE back from major check in MNL.


Better than AF: they are down by two: F-HPJE (repair after engine failure over Greenland) and F-HPJH (major check in Xiamen):
https://www.flugrevue.de/zivilluftfahrt ... fen/742632
 
Arion640
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:41 pm

These sorts of situations is when the Hifly jets could come into play.
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Jayafe
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:47 pm

BA and AF defo need a few more A388...
 
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Balerit
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:53 pm

BA plane lost all oil in one of the engines and engine shut down.
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BOAC1966
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:23 pm

Seems a long time AOG for an oil leak ...engine change at an outstation normally handled within a few days especially major A380 location with good facilities. Clearly sending rescue flight within hours of problem suggests consequences of oil leak were major. Intersting looking at climb out and then outbound sector over europe erractic speed that stabilised ....if meaningful then LHR return looked a better bet. Speculation!
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:30 pm

Arion640 wrote:
These sorts of situations is when the Hifly jets could come into play.


Definately! Having an A380 down for maintenance costs a lot of money. I think HiFly plans on acquiring up to 6 A380s in the long run. Maybe others will follow.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:14 pm

An-124 bring out spare motor from U.K.
 
grjplanes
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:31 am

MoKa777 wrote:
So 3 A380s on the ground at JNB everyday? 2 normal ops and this 1?

I have not been pass JNB in a little while.


Was this also then on the same day that AF had the A380 that returned to JNB the previous evening with the gear not retracting, was then also standing at JNB for a day...thus AF having 2 A380 on the ground as well.
Think EK also started with 2 daily A380 flights last week, however might have been after these incidents.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:43 am

grjplanes wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
So 3 A380s on the ground at JNB everyday? 2 normal ops and this 1?

I have not been pass JNB in a little while.


Was this also then on the same day that AF had the A380 that returned to JNB the previous evening with the gear not retracting, was then also standing at JNB for a day...thus AF having 2 A380 on the ground as well.
Think EK also started with 2 daily A380 flights last week, however might have been after these incidents.


Wow, that is a lot of heavy metal in one place!
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Polot
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:15 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
These sorts of situations is when the Hifly jets could come into play.


Definately! Having an A380 down for maintenance costs a lot of money. I think HiFly plans on acquiring up to 6 A380s in the long run. Maybe others will follow.

Wet leasing aircraft with basically no notice for a short amount of time also costs a lot of money, hence why airlines don’t generally do so when they lose an aircraft (any aircraft) to unexpected mx issues. Often it is easier and cheaper to just work with your existing fleet and reaccomidate any affected pax (either from flight cancellations or bumped from aircraft downgauges- the latter of which would still occur as the wet leased aircraft configuration won’t match aircraft in fleet).
 
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par13del
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:33 pm

So a question, could they ferry the a/c back to the UK on 3 engines, would that be cheaper than getting the cargo a/c to fly in a replacement engine, then the crews on station to change? Is that one of the benefits of a quad versus a twin?
 
ba9216c
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:53 pm

I’m sure a 3 engine ferry would have been considered. BA is one of the few airlines who have flight crew that are trained to do so. They just have to sit a flight sim session prior to doing it as the throttle advancement procedure is different. The problem with JNB is the limited diversion fields enroute. I believe they are doing an engine change so they must have ruled out the ferry flight back.
 
RB211trent
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:32 pm

ba9216c wrote:
I’m sure a 3 engine ferry would have been considered. BA is one of the few airlines who have flight crew that are trained to do so. They just have to sit a flight sim session prior to doing it as the throttle advancement procedure is different. The problem with JNB is the limited diversion fields enroute. I believe they are doing an engine change so they must have ruled out the ferry flight back.


You’ve absolutely correct
 
TC957
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:10 pm

A 3-engine take off from hot & high JNB, even for a ferry flight but with c.12 hrs fuel on board, would I feel be quite a feat.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:48 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
An-124 bring out spare motor from U.K.

Will BA send along MX team or use locals?
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G-CIVP
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:21 pm

TC957 - It would done of an evening/night when it is cooler and the air denser.

Readytotaxi - Usually fly some guys out to supervise with locals or do the lot.
 
amax1977
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:26 pm

Question: What's the factory warranty on incidents like this? Is the airline responsible to pay for the repair or the factory warranty will cover the repair cost? Thanks!
 
marcelh
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:26 pm

ba9216c wrote:
I’m sure a 3 engine ferry would have been considered. BA is one of the few airlines who have flight crew that are trained to do so. They just have to sit a flight sim session prior to doing it as the throttle advancement procedure is different. The problem with JNB is the limited diversion fields enroute. I believe they are doing an engine change so they must have ruled out the ferry flight back.


Is the A380 certified to make a 3 engine ferry flight possible?
 
RobertS975
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:56 pm

TC957 wrote:
A 3-engine take off from hot & high JNB, even for a ferry flight but with c.12 hrs fuel on board, would I feel be quite a feat.


It would not need to be nonstop to the UK. Could always refuel along the way.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:59 pm

When is the AN-124 flight due, or did I miss it?
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Spacepope
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:30 pm

marcelh wrote:
ba9216c wrote:
I’m sure a 3 engine ferry would have been considered. BA is one of the few airlines who have flight crew that are trained to do so. They just have to sit a flight sim session prior to doing it as the throttle advancement procedure is different. The problem with JNB is the limited diversion fields enroute. I believe they are doing an engine change so they must have ruled out the ferry flight back.


Is the A380 certified to make a 3 engine ferry flight possible?


That's the million dollar question. BA just 3-engine ferried a 744 out from PHX so they have very recent experience. The past 2 A388s needing new engines seem to be waiting for them to get transported in (this one and AF in Canada) so it seems strange that nobody seems to want to attempt a 3 engine ferry.
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RB211trent
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:53 pm

amax1977 wrote:
Question: What's the factory warranty on incidents like this? Is the airline responsible to pay for the repair or the factory warranty will cover the repair cost? Thanks!


Depends what the contract between the airline and RR is. Some have remote site engine change some don’t.
 
Arion640
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:20 pm

Spacepope wrote:
marcelh wrote:
ba9216c wrote:
I’m sure a 3 engine ferry would have been considered. BA is one of the few airlines who have flight crew that are trained to do so. They just have to sit a flight sim session prior to doing it as the throttle advancement procedure is different. The problem with JNB is the limited diversion fields enroute. I believe they are doing an engine change so they must have ruled out the ferry flight back.


Is the A380 certified to make a 3 engine ferry flight possible?


That's the million dollar question. BA just 3-engine ferried a 744 out from PHX so they have very recent experience. The past 2 A388s needing new engines seem to be waiting for them to get transported in (this one and AF in Canada) so it seems strange that nobody seems to want to attempt a 3 engine ferry.


Yeah they did manage to get it to Cardiff non stop. I would of thought this would of been achievable with the A380 as PHX is also pretty hot, granted it's winter in PHX and summer in JNB.
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beechnut
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:01 pm

Spacepope wrote:
That's the million dollar question. BA just 3-engine ferried a 744 out from PHX so they have very recent experience. The past 2 A388s needing new engines seem to be waiting for them to get transported in (this one and AF in Canada) so it seems strange that nobody seems to want to attempt a 3 engine ferry.


Not sure B747 experience is applicable to the A380. The A380 *is* certified for 3-engine ferry flights, but the requirements are extensive. You can find them starting on page 31 of this document:

https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files ... 110718.pdf

There are many conditions to be met, it isn't just "fire up the three good engines and blast off!". Training requirements, requirement for two qualified A380 instructor pilots, inspection of the three good engines, weather requirements, MEL requirements, pre-ferry simulator sessions, etc. It is quite possible that getting all the ducks lined up for such a flight would take longer than the field repair and subsequent no-restriction flight.

There are no doubt field requirements as well, and JNB being "hot and high", might be adding another level of complexity to the operation.

BTW the AF one in Goose Bay will be a three-engine ferry. The damaged engine is being replaced with a non-op engine, strictly for the structural need to have the weight of 4 engines on the wing. The rest of the repairs will be carried out back home, as I understand it.

Beech
 
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:04 pm

RobertS975 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
A 3-engine take off from hot & high JNB, even for a ferry flight but with c.12 hrs fuel on board, would I feel be quite a feat.


It would not need to be nonstop to the UK. Could always refuel along the way.


Is there even any suitable airport enroute before you reach Europe? I'm not sure, not unless you make a detour to the Gulf.
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TUGMASTER
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:07 pm

Aircraft transited via BDA, it was NOT non-stop.

As for the 3 engine ferry on this 380, it was considered, but a fuel stop in western Africa was needed.
BA did not have A380 experience or local knowledge of operating in that neck of the woods, so new motor is being shipped STN-XXX-JNB
Also believe BA leases these engines from RR on a power/hour deal, at the cost of all this could very well be down to RR.
 
ezalpha
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:12 pm

Some airports aren'tcertified for engineout ops I believe. Yyz is,but only on one runway I understand.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:12 pm

beechnut wrote:

BTW the AF one in Goose Bay will be a three-engine ferry. The damaged engine is being replaced with a non-op engine, strictly for the structural need to have the weight of 4 engines on the wing. The rest of the repairs will be carried out back home, as I understand it.

Beech


It's already home. Engine and pylon were replaced at Goose Bay and it ferried back to CDG with all 4 turning and burning. Now getting extra TLC back in France.
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Richard28
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:04 pm

An AN-124 has just passed over my head routing STN-JNB. New RR engine onboard for the BA A380 perhaps?

http://fr24.com/ADB2341/fe01d2c
 
TC957
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:13 pm

UR-82027 is on it's way, crossing the channel now.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:43 pm

Richard28 wrote:
An AN-124 has just passed over my head routing STN-JNB. New RR engine onboard for the BA A380 perhaps?

http://fr24.com/ADB2341/fe01d2c



surprised its non-stop STN-JNB....
was unaware the AN124 had that amount of range.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:46 pm

Interesting, I would have thought that it would have gone from Cardiff or LHR. No expert me.
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Sooner787
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:49 pm

Spacepope wrote:
beechnut wrote:

BTW the AF one in Goose Bay will be a three-engine ferry. The damaged engine is being replaced with a non-op engine, strictly for the structural need to have the weight of 4 engines on the wing. The rest of the repairs will be carried out back home, as I understand it.

Beech


It's already home. Engine and pylon were replaced at Goose Bay and it ferried back to CDG with all 4 turning and burning. Now getting extra TLC back in France.


Hope that TLC includes a bath LOL
 
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seabosdca
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:53 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
surprised its non-stop STN-JNB....
was unaware the AN124 had that amount of range.


The engine itself weighs around 7 t. Add some supplies and a flight crew and maybe you might have as much as 20 t on board. That's still nearly empty by An-124 standards. The thing can carry plenty of fuel; with a 20 t payload, range is nearly 7000 nm.
 
BOAC1966
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:19 pm

On a more positive note BA with 12 A380s, now operating over four years, appear to have been very reliable and seem to have few such incidents resulting in protracted delays. As a fleet it does seem to be worked relatively hard with little buffer although strangely the JNB flights have the most by far with long turnaround time at outstation. As said in other threads there does seem to be a case for increasing the fleet size to ensure adequate fleet cover and get better slot utilisation in terms of pax uplift per flight especially at highly congested airports. I think over next 18months seven are needing major checks following the first five in either SIN or MNL.

Final point of possible interest is the actual incident and where and when it became apparent. My earlier thread suggested it may have been apparent within the first three hours of the flight looking at FRflight profile. I was under the impression that the engine inflight monitoring systems today are very refined able to predict issues well in advance. Yes bird strikes or manufacturing of unexoected nature inevitable do occur. Someone has suggested an oil leak .....maintaince records will be carefully scrutinised ...
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:36 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Interesting, I would have thought that it would have gone from Cardiff or LHR. No expert me.


If you were shipping factory fresh from Derby STN makes sense.
BV
 
Fabo
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:42 pm

BOAC1966 wrote:
On a more positive note BA with 12 A380s, now operating over four years, appear to have been very reliable and seem to have few such incidents resulting in protracted delays. .


I suppose they would.

Funnily enough, when I was leaving JNB a couple of years ago on a different A380, the BA flight for the night was just cancelled. And to get to this thread, I clicked a link on a different discussion in a TR, where a certain guy had a BA A380 flight out of JNB return to origin... so anecdotally, 3/3 fail on BA A380s in my experience :P
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sandyb123
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:59 pm

BOAC1966 wrote:
Intersting looking at climb out and then outbound sector over europe erractic speed that stabilised ....if meaningful then LHR return looked a better bet. Speculation!


The profile of the flight definitely looks like the have experienced power issues at the top of the initial climb and then later climbed at a very low rate between 37,000 and 39,000 over what looks like almost 2,000 miles / 90 minutes over Africa.

As an avid Air Display watcher this would have made me a nervous passenger on this flight!

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Pellegrine
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:33 am

Fabo wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
A 3-engine take off from hot & high JNB, even for a ferry flight but with c.12 hrs fuel on board, would I feel be quite a feat.


It would not need to be nonstop to the UK. Could always refuel along the way.


Is there even any suitable airport enroute before you reach Europe? I'm not sure, not unless you make a detour to the Gulf.


What I don't understand is why some people think the continent of Africa is a black hole from SA to Europe. You can hop, skip, and jump the whole way if need be, whether B747 or A380.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:36 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
Aircraft transited via BDA, it was NOT non-stop.

As for the 3 engine ferry on this 380, it was considered, but a fuel stop in western Africa was needed.
BA did not have A380 experience or local knowledge of operating in that neck of the woods, so new motor is being shipped STN-XXX-JNB
Also believe BA leases these engines from RR on a power/hour deal, at the cost of all this could very well be down to RR.


BA has extensive knowledge operating in Western Africa. Not with A380, but extensive.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
gregk80
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:00 am

Howdy, long time reader, first post! I was on this flight. Scheduled departure 2015, left stand a few mins after that. Aircraft sat on apron for an hour or during which (excellent) pilot updated us a few times, at that point he said they had a status light and were investigating if issue was part or just sensor.

Then back to stand at which point he told us it was an oil issue with and engine (#1 I think but not sure) and it wouldn't start. Said they were on to propulsion people back at HQ. Then he said they were going to 'turn over' the engine to collect further data for review back at HQ. Mentioned it was a gearbox oil issue and said they had to re-oil the engine before they did this. Later updated us and said they wouldn't be able to fly as engine was losing oil. We were deplaned around midnight. Some people were already a day late as the aircraft for BA56 the previous day never made it to JNB due to snow at LHR.

Ground situation was a bit of a mess as an AF A380 turned back after dumping fuel as landing gear wouldn't retract. Arrived back at terminal a little before us so there were ~1000 people to house. Problems with buses and sending us to wrong hotels so didn't get a room until 4:30 am. They flew a new frame down next day and flight back scheduled for 2115 but didn't leave until after midnight as we were ~80 pax short at 2100 due to massive delays in the terminal (as the capt said it was prob a bit ambitious to check in 3 X BA A380 within an hour of each other). Connection back to Dublin was also delayed in LHR so I got back home at 2pm Thurs against planned time of 8am Wed.

BA staff were great, organisation on ground at OR Tambo leaves a lot to be desired. I've been going down to JNB monthly all year and this is the bad first problem I've had. Glad this didn't happen in flight as sounds relatively serious.

Question for those more knowledgeable than I, if an engine lost all oil in flight presumably it wouldn't be safe to let it windmill? What would be the procedure then? Also, seems like the RR engines may still have oil issues. Was the AF A380 with uncontained engine failure also RR?
 
BOAC1966
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:07 am

AF uses EA engines on A380. Useful first hand account. Many thanks
 
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Balerit
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:27 pm

gregk80 wrote:

Question for those more knowledgeable than I, if an engine lost all oil in flight presumably it wouldn't be safe to let it windmill? What would be the procedure then? Also, seems like the RR engines may still have oil issues. Was the AF A380 with uncontained engine failure also RR?


Thanks for the first hand information and welcome to A.net.

I once had a B747 turn back from Hong Kong 2 hours into the flight. If I remember correctly the JT9 could windmall for 4 hours max with no oil.
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BOAC1966
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:47 pm

Assume that the AN124 will return with the damaged engine in next 24 hours and hopefully G-XLEA! Much needed in next couple of weeks!
 
AirBoat
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:17 pm

was on SA317 JNB-CT on 16 dec:
Saturday morning 16 dec there was a 787 parked next to the service hangar at cape town int airport. could not see the airline.
The BA A380 was parked at the service hangars opposite the domestic departures side of JNB airport
 
grjplanes
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:31 pm

AirBoat wrote:
was on SA317 JNB-CT on 16 dec:
Saturday morning 16 dec there was a 787 parked next to the service hangar at cape town int airport. could not see the airline.
The BA A380 was parked at the service hangars opposite the domestic departures side of JNB airport


That would have been the DeerJet 787 that brought a group from HKG earlier the week, apparently on an excursion to Antarctica (with a different aircraft though)
 
AirBoat
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:48 pm

thanks for that ( apologies for off topic)
have not been on board for a while. how do I upload an image.
I have a nice foto of the a380 at jnb, but can not figure out how to attach it.
 
ScottB
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Re: BA 380 stuck in JNB

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:03 pm

BOAC1966 wrote:
strangely the JNB flights have the most by far with long turnaround time at outstation.


That's really not surprising at all; the red-eye in both the southbound and northbound directions is the most desirable service commercially (particularly because it is more likely to sell pricey business & first class seats). One sees the same service pattern in flights between North America and deep South America where aircraft sit all day long on the ramp at airports like GIG, GRU, and EZE.

Pellegrine wrote:
What I don't understand is why some people think the continent of Africa is a black hole from SA to Europe. You can hop, skip, and jump the whole way if need be, whether B747 or A380.


No, the continent of Africa isn't a black hole, but the number of airports in between with adequate facilities and appropriately-trained maintenance technicians is relatively small. You don't want to get the aircraft stuck somewhere where the difficulty of replacing an engine rises to the level of being at Goose Bay.

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