Delta is obviously anti-Boeing at this point in time after the CSeries 300% tariff deal pushed by Boeing. Look for more Airbus orders to follow. It’s as simple as that.

Wikipedia page only says 777s are to be retrofitted with Delta One suites....nothing about replacement - yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet#Current_fleet

I don't see Delta going all Airbus but I do think it will become the largest Airbus operator in the US. I think DL will go for the MOM.

NZ321 wrote:

I don't see Delta going all Airbus but I do think it will become the largest Airbus operator in the US. I think DL will go for the MOM.

DL also has a lot of brand new 739ER coming and I don't see the retirement of 76W/764/75W anytime soon.

molitvic20 wrote:

Jesus Chris, Delta is going all Airbus.

Since the Cadre driving the ship came from PMNW and they have a solid history with Airbus,
( launch customer for the A320 in the US ) and after the order of the 321.... writing is in the wall. IMHO the 739 did Boeing in, they should have never gone beyond the 738 with this "dated", design specially when airlines have been "screaming" for a TRUE 757 replacement for some time now.

496TFS wrote:

Delta is obviously anti-Boeing at this point in time after the CSeries 300% tariff deal pushed by Boeing. Look for more Airbus orders to follow. It’s as simple as that.

That's quite a sad assertion, be it true or not. I would like to see Delta get plenty more life out of their existing 777's, of which there is very much life left to be had, and then down the road upgrade to the 77X, which would be the best plane to fill the role, period. 777's rule the twin engine skies and the 77X will pull even farther from the pack, having not even a close second place to it's mighty greatness. If Delta is smart, they won't waste time toying around with A330 NEO's or 3510's. Set aside your differences with Boeing on a political level, and when it comes to new aircraft purchase, only buy the best.

ikolkyo wrote:

DL’s 777 fleet is not old, average age of almost 13 years. Will be around for many years to come.

BA is planning on operating theirs into the near side of 30 years old, and DL's the one with the 'old-planes' reputation

BayAreaLen wrote:

496TFS wrote:

Delta is obviously anti-Boeing at this point in time after the CSeries 300% tariff deal pushed by Boeing. Look for more Airbus orders to follow. It’s as simple as that.

That's quite a sad assertion, be it true or not. I would like to see Delta get plenty more life out of their existing 777's, of which there is very much life left to be had, and then down the road upgrade to the 77X, which would be the best plane to fill the role, period. 777's rule the twin engine skies and the 77X will pull even farther from the pack, having not even a close second place to it's mighty greatness. If Delta is smart, they won't waste time toying around with A330 NEO's or 3510's. Set aside your differences with Boeing on a political level, and when it comes to new aircraft purchase, only buy the best.

I think it's quite naive of you to assume that the 777X will be the best 777 replacement. There are a huge range of factors, such as route distance and (less so admittedly for Delta) fleet commonality. Delta's current 777's (for which there's only 18) seat 291 people, their new A359 aircraft seat 306 passengers, if Detla are happy with the A350-900 they'll order more, it makes great sense. If they're looking for an up-gauge in capacity I see the A350-1000 being a major contender. Ultimately it will come down to capacity demands, routes Delta want to operate with the replacement and the price Boeing and Airbus will offer on the frames DL is interested in.

496TFS wrote:

Delta is obviously anti-Boeing at this point in time after the CSeries 300% tariff deal pushed by Boeing. Look for more Airbus orders to follow. It’s as simple as that.

I disagree. I think Boeing were stupid for trying to impose tariffs on an aircraft that they don't directly compete with, and the Trump administration even more stupid for falling to Boeing's demands. Whilst I don't doubt it has damaged DL and Boeing's relationship somewhat if Boeing can offer superior delivery slots and pricing DL will buy Boeing, it all comes down to the bottom line, Delta is a business that aims to make money and letting politics hamper profits would be disastrous.

Looking at their past couple of orders they're completely logical. The A330neo aircraft expand on an A330 fleet, and thus are more cost effective to integrate with lower maintenance, integration and training costs. Not only that it hasn't sold amazingly well, which no doubt gives DL better leverage on pricing, and delivery slots. The Bombardier deal happened before Airbus and Bombardier were connected and had no tariff been introduced I highly doubt Bombardier and Airbus would have such a connection.

Finally, the recent A321neo order makes perfect sense. The A320neo family has gained more orders than the 73X, that's a fact. Many airlines clearly see it as a superior aircraft, and it appears to be the best 757 replacement, an aircraft DL operates 100 of.

People seem to forget about the 130 737-900ER aircraft order, with 42 frames still to be delivered when they argue DL is going 'all Airbus!'

778X is a great replacement for the 77Ls...

FlightLevel360 wrote:

778X is a great replacement for the 77Ls...

They already have a 77L replacement. It's called the A359. It can do every thing the 77L can do for DL except maybe on half a route. Unless DL plans on going head-to-head with SQ on NYC-SIN and LAX-SIN which I find highly unlikely, it makes no financial sense to introduce an entirely new type (assuming the current 777's will be retired some day), for half a route.

All Delta's B777s are all owned meaning there is a greater incentive to operate them longer as they become fully amortized. Delta's history has shown their willingness to keep owned widebody aircraft and operate them to near the end of their useful life. For example, they're currently operating 27 year old B763s. They even kept some of the last B744s a little longer! With leased aircraft it's much cheaper to get rid of them younger since the lessor takes the residual risk, however, when the aircraft is owned and there is little resale value for it the incentives to operate an asset which no longer has any significant ownership costs in very high.

As previously mentioned, 7 aircraft are about 18 years old, 1 about 16 years old, and the remaining 10 remaining LRs between 8 and 10. So it's not inconceivable that they could operating them for between 10 and 20 more years. Who knows what aircraft will be available then and what their network and needs will look like by then.

LAX772LR wrote:

KrustyTheKlown wrote:

Second handed 777

Shy of a merger, DL doesn't generally do used widebodies.

Last time was a quarter century ago.

LX015 wrote:

NateGreat wrote:

I don’t see Delta retiring the 777-200LR anytime soon. Delta uses it on routes like ATL-JNB and LAX-SYD. The A359 can barely make LAX-SYD and can only make nearly 1,000 miles short of ATL-JNB. Delta would need something that can handle 8,439 mile ATL-JNB before they can replace the 777-200LR.

Yeah, and it's called the A350-900ULH...

You mean -ULR, which may not have the performance to get the loads DL wants out of JNB's elevation. The 77L couldn't even do so, prior to modification by both Boeing and Goodyear.

What modifications were done ?

Tedd wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Boeing778X wrote:

Don't bet money on it.

Once AA converts their order, there will be no A350s at AA. The 777 is too prominent, which leaves the door open for the 779 eventually, and there are far too many 787 options.

---

As for DL, I really can't see why they can't retire their 777s a few years sooner. I mean, to be honest, the 777 fleet is oddball now, especially the 77E. Ordering the A359ULR and A350-1000 may very well be future additions to DL.

But really, I can't see DL doing any significant business with Boeing for the time being. The MAX lost out to the A321neo, which was a great move and is what DL should have ordered at the end of the day, the 787 was dropped, and DL honestly doesn't need last minute 77Ws or the 777X.

Next thing is the MoM, but if Airbus, who's making all the right decisions as of late, rebuts with an A322 or something related, DL no doubt will go for that too.

1. Is AA for sure going to cancel their A359 order?

2. I can see both the 777x in and the MoM in Deltas fleet and I think DL will order at least one of them. I’d be very surprised if Delta continues to order all Airbus well into the future, eventually the C-series spat with Boeing will be resolved. However, if Delta continues to order all Airbus, I predict eventually there will be some sort of backlash.

I respect your opinions, & you make valid points that may very well happen, but your, "I predict eventually there will be some sort of backlash" needs
further explaining. Is this a backlash from the American flying public, or from Government, or from Boeing? My second question would be.....Why?

There could be backlash from all 3, but I think it would primarily come from the first two.

If Delta continues to buy all Airbus, people will eventually start questioning their commitment to American jobs, which could result in a backlash. I understand that there are many components to building an airplane and not all parts of Boeing planes are made in the US (and on the flip side, some Airbus work is done in the US), but the basic fact is, many more American jobs are created/supported with Boeing planes, as Boeing planes are primarily assembled in the US, while Airbus is primarily assembled in Europe. If Delta continues to buy all-Airbus, do you not think the unions that represent Boeing workers could start picketing outside SEA? After all, they have a growing hub there. The protests could spread elsewhere, causing people to question Delta further. It could be a major PR problem down the road.

Furthermore, if Delta continues to buy all-Airbus, they could face backlash from the government in the form of lost business because of unwillingness to buy airplanes from the US airplane manufacturer. And they may not as be willing to help Delta if a crisis emerged.

Finally, if Delta continues to buy all-Airbus, Boeing may eventually stop bidding for Delta planes, leaving Delta at the mercy of Airbus pricing. This has been pointed out on several of these threads.

I am not saying these things will happen, but they COULD happen should the current trend continue. I predict Delta and Boeing will eventually make up, the C-Series debacle will get resolved and Delta will buy either the 777x or 797/MoM (or both). For the reasons stated above, Delta would be very unwise to continue this all-Airbus strategy.

And just so you all know, I am not saying this as someone who is 100% pro-Boeing and anti-Airbus, I think both make wonderful planes (Airbus makes better narrowbody planes while Boeing makes better widebody planes IMO). I like Boeing better because they are an American company and at the end of the day, I support American jobs, but I think there is room for Airbus in US-based airlines; for example, I think AA has done a good job with showing how there is room for both in a fleet. They are taking the best of both and deploying it accordingly.

Max Q wrote:

What modifications were done ?

Goodyear changed the tire design so that the max rotation speed could be raised at altitude. Boeing did the certification, along with minor tweaks like readjusting sensors and the like. Didn't carry over to the 77W.

Not sure how much, or if anything, DL paid for in all of it; but the changes were the difference in permitting a significant amount of payload on the westbound.

ADrum23 wrote:

tu154m wrote:

Whatever Airbus offers them. A350-1000 most likely.

Wow, I didn't know Airbus is an automatic lock to land all future Delta orders.........

I'd say pretty much . Obviously after the stunt Boeing pulled, DL is not going to be feeling great about that company for awhile (at least under this current stewardship) there is business, and there is still Airbus. DL was already shying away from Boeing before their recent nonsense.

So yeah, its a near lock, but there are always surprises.

It's not like we have not seen this before. Many examples of airlines favoring one manufacturer over another, see JL and NH. Besides the A300, AA was not pals with Airbus until recently.

JamesCousins wrote:

I disagree. I think Boeing were stupid for trying to impose tariffs on an aircraft that they don't directly compete with, and the Trump administration even more stupid for falling to Boeing's demands. Whilst I don't doubt it has damaged DL and Boeing's relationship somewhat if Boeing can offer superior delivery slots and pricing DL will buy Boeing, it all comes down to the bottom line, Delta is a business that aims to make money and letting politics hamper profits would be disastrous.

Difference between the published and unpublished chronology. Boeing knew they had lost both orders (cs100 and A321), and sale of Bombardier stake to Airbus before upping the anti in regards to pressing for retaliatory trade action.

If NB slots weren't in short supply, their 737 orders would be at risk.

Chance of Boeing making sales to Delta in the next five years, unless at giveaway prices, zero. Boeing action will have come as a big wake up call to other US airlines, and other international customers too.

LAXLHR wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

tu154m wrote:

Whatever Airbus offers them. A350-1000 most likely.

Wow, I didn't know Airbus is an automatic lock to land all future Delta orders.........

I'd say pretty much . Obviously after the stunt Boeing pulled, DL is not going to be feeling great about that company for awhile (at least under this current stewardship) there is business, and there is still Airbus. DL was already shying away from Boeing before their recent nonsense.

So yeah, its a near lock, but there are always surprises.

We’ll see about that. No one has a crystal ball. Remember, if DL continues an all airbus strategy, they may eventually face backlash (see my post above).

Planesmart wrote:

Chance of Boeing making sales to Delta in the next five years, unless at giveaway prices, zero. Boeing action will have come as a big wake up call to other US airlines, and other international customers too.

That’s a pretty presumptuous statement. It seems Boeing is doing just fine with orders and deliveries, so I don’t see a huge backlash.

ADrum23 wrote:

If Delta continues to buy all Airbus, people will eventually start questioning their commitment to American jobs

Delta's only commitment is to its shareholders.

ADrum23 wrote:

Finally, if Delta continues to buy all-Airbus, Boeing may eventually stop bidding for Delta planes, leaving Delta at the mercy of Airbus pricing. This has been pointed out on several of these threads.

Presumably airlines like Southwest and Ryanair are happy to be at the mercy of Boeing pricing?

ADrum23 wrote:

at the end of the day I support American jobs

So you don't buy anything that isn't "Made in the USA"?

Bjm0517 wrote:

questions wrote:

Does DL have an announced plan to refurbish the Delta One cabin on the 777s?

Yes, they are planning to renovate it in 2018. This adding the same product as the A350

They certainly need it. I just did an AisaPac round trip in one and they front cabin is definitely showing its age. Mx was onboard for one flight taping up trim panels with duct tape, and I wasn't sure my seat was going to be functional the entire flight both directions.Did like the all aisle cabin layout though and the last row seats in the first section are extra private.

scbriml wrote:

Presumably airlines like Southwest and Ryanair are happy to be at the mercy of Boeing pricing?

That is a much different situation. Southwest and Ryanair operate one fleet type, the 737. The US3 operate all different types and sizes of airplanes, so it would be a lot worse if they were at the pricing mercy of one manufacturer.

scbriml wrote:

So you don't buy anything that isn't "Made in the USA"?

No, that's not what I said. I buy foreign-made products all the time, I would be naive to only buy "Made in the USA" products, since there are very few items that are entirely made in the US. What I was referring to there was since Boeing creates/supports more American jobs when their planes are built as opposed to Airbus, I support that. But as I've made it abundantly clear (though some people still don't seem to get it), this is not to say I don't like Airbus, and that airlines shouldn't buy them. Frankly, I think in most situations (unless they are operating a single fleet type like Southwest and Ryanair), big airlines should buy both, so that one manufacturer does not have an advantage over the other, and deploy them on routes where each one has its strength.

ADrum23 wrote:

No, that's not what I said. I buy foreign-made products all the time, I would be naive to only buy "Made in the USA" products, since there are very few items that are entirely made in the US. What I was referring to there was since Boeing creates/supports more American jobs when their planes are built as opposed to Airbus, I support that. But as I've made it abundantly clear (though some people still don't seem to get it), this is not to say I don't like Airbus, and that airlines shouldn't buy them. Frankly, I think in most situations (unless they are operating a single fleet type like Southwest and Ryanair), big airlines should buy both, so that one manufacturer does not have an advantage over the other, and deploy them on routes where each one has its strength.

You do know 35% of the 787 airframe is made in Japan, probably 10%+ Italy (half the 25% original Vought-Alenia program) , throw in a bunch of odds and ends on the airframe, add the engines especially Rolls ones and I would think 2/3 to 3/4 of the price of the price of the parts if not more is sourced from outside US.

trex8 wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

No, that's not what I said. I buy foreign-made products all the time, I would be naive to only buy "Made in the USA" products, since there are very few items that are entirely made in the US. What I was referring to there was since Boeing creates/supports more American jobs when their planes are built as opposed to Airbus, I support that. But as I've made it abundantly clear (though some people still don't seem to get it), this is not to say I don't like Airbus, and that airlines shouldn't buy them. Frankly, I think in most situations (unless they are operating a single fleet type like Southwest and Ryanair), big airlines should buy both, so that one manufacturer does not have an advantage over the other, and deploy them on routes where each one has its strength.

You do know 35% of the 787 airframe is made in Japan, probably 10%+ Italy (half the 25% original Vought-Alenia program) , throw in a bunch of odds and ends on the airframe, add the engines especially Rolls ones and I would think 2/3 to 3/4 of the price of the price of the parts if not more is sourced from outside US.

Yes, I am fully aware of that. As I said previously, I understand there are many parts to building an airplane and both Boeing and Airbus use parts from a global supply chain. However, Boeing planes are primarily assembled in the US (in Washington, South Carolina, etc), so they support American jobs in that way.

And to that note, the A321s that DL just ordered will be "primarily assembled in the US" (in Alabama), so they do support American jobs in that way!

ADrum23 wrote:

That is a much different situation. Southwest and Ryanair operate one fleet type, the 737. The US3 operate all different types and sizes of airplanes, so it would be a lot worse if they were at the pricing mercy of one manufacturer.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing much difference at all. It's OK for Southwest to be at the mercy of Boeing's pricing, but not for Delta (or anyone else) to be at the mercy of Airbus's pricing?

ADrum23 wrote:

Yes, I am fully aware of that. As I said previously, I understand there are many parts to building an airplane and both Boeing and Airbus use parts from a global supply chain. However, Boeing planes are primarily assembled in the US (in Washington, South Carolina, etc), so they support American jobs in that way.

As will Delta's A321ceos and neos that are assembled in Mobile. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a GTF-powered A321neo assembled in Mobile supports as many "American jobs" as a RR-powered 787.

Regardless, Delta's job is to run their airline as best they can for the benefit of their shareholders. If that means selecting Airbus planes over Boeing's because they do a better job for Delta, then they should be free to do that without outside interference.

FlightLevel360 wrote:

778X is a great replacement for the 77Ls...

It's not flying, and not even built, so I think that statement is a bit premature, isn't it?

On the other hand, it's going to be probably most natural 1:1 case. Still, with its overweight, it's not going to be the best on all range-all mision. I'd bet it could be only at far side the best possible replacement. But great - yeah, as much as any of other competitors.

Cheers, Adam

Planesmart wrote:

JamesCousins wrote:

I disagree. I think Boeing were stupid for trying to impose tariffs on an aircraft that they don't directly compete with, and the Trump administration even more stupid for falling to Boeing's demands. Whilst I don't doubt it has damaged DL and Boeing's relationship somewhat if Boeing can offer superior delivery slots and pricing DL will buy Boeing, it all comes down to the bottom line, Delta is a business that aims to make money and letting politics hamper profits would be disastrous.

Difference between the published and unpublished chronology. Boeing knew they had lost both orders (cs100 and A321), and sale of Bombardier stake to Airbus before upping the anti in regards to pressing for retaliatory trade action.

If NB slots weren't in short supply, their 737 orders would be at risk.

Chance of Boeing making sales to Delta in the next five years, unless at giveaway prices, zero. Boeing action will have come as a big wake up call to other US airlines, and other international customers too.

I 100% agree with most of what you raised. I do think there are chances of a Boeing order in the next 5 years, although I don't see huge demand for Delta to really order any more aircraft from anyone. I think a couple more A350 top up orders are possible, but unless a MOM A/C comes through I'm not convinced either...

Delta's latest Airbus order does raise some interesting debate about the future orders. They will come and what will the outcome be? Does Boeing stop trying to beat Airbus on DL orders? Does DL lose leverage because BA is no longer playing the game? Likely no to both.

Don't underestimate the P&W engine overhaul business with this order. It is HUGE. DL not only gets a better plane and competitive pricing - they get a guaranteed revenue stream (in the billions) for years going forward. Boeing's sole engine supplier, CFMI, doesn't play that kind of game - and it clearly hindered Boeing.

And while Boeing's stance on the CS-100 rightfully earns much criticism, I invite any of you to read US Trade Law. Our government's trade laws do not exclude price dumping even if it's not a direct competitor. It's been that way for years.

The US steel industry has lived both sides of the trade wars for decades. Simply put, China cannot dump its steel in our market at below-cost prices - it doesn't matter whether the beams or rolled sizes are incomparable to the product being offered by a US-based manufacturer. Under law, the same holds true for foreign aircraft manufacturers are subsidized by their governments.

ADrum23 wrote:

Tedd wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

1. Is AA for sure going to cancel their A359 order?

2. I can see both the 777x in and the MoM in Deltas fleet and I think DL will order at least one of them. I’d be very surprised if Delta continues to order all Airbus well into the future, eventually the C-series spat with Boeing will be resolved. However, if Delta continues to order all Airbus, I predict eventually there will be some sort of backlash.

I respect your opinions, & you make valid points that may very well happen, but your, "I predict eventually there will be some sort of backlash" needs
further explaining. Is this a backlash from the American flying public, or from Government, or from Boeing? My second question would be.....Why?

There could be backlash from all 3, but I think it would primarily come from the first two.

If Delta continues to buy all Airbus, people will eventually start questioning their commitment to American jobs, which could result in a backlash. I understand that there are many components to building an airplane and not all parts of Boeing planes are made in the US (and on the flip side, some Airbus work is done in the US), but the basic fact is, many more American jobs are created/supported with Boeing planes, as Boeing planes are primarily assembled in the US, while Airbus is primarily assembled in Europe. If Delta continues to buy all-Airbus, do you not think the unions that represent Boeing workers could start picketing outside SEA? After all, they have a growing hub there. The protests could spread elsewhere, causing people to question Delta further. It could be a major PR problem down the road.

Furthermore, if Delta continues to buy all-Airbus, they could face backlash from the government in the form of lost business because of unwillingness to buy airplanes from the US airplane manufacturer. And they may not as be willing to help Delta if a crisis emerged.

Finally, if Delta continues to buy all-Airbus, Boeing may eventually stop bidding for Delta planes, leaving Delta at the mercy of Airbus pricing. This has been pointed out on several of these threads.

I am not saying these things will happen, but they COULD happen should the current trend continue. I predict Delta and Boeing will eventually make up, the C-Series debacle will get resolved and Delta will buy either the 777x or 797/MoM (or both). For the reasons stated above, Delta would be very unwise to continue this all-Airbus strategy.

And just so you all know, I am not saying this as someone who is 100% pro-Boeing and anti-Airbus, I think both make wonderful planes (Airbus makes better narrowbody planes while Boeing makes better widebody planes IMO). I like Boeing better because they are an American company and at the end of the day, I support American jobs, but I think there is room for Airbus in US-based airlines; for example, I think AA has done a good job with showing how there is room for both in a fleet. They are taking the best of both and deploying it accordingly.

So why aren't people questioning NK, F9 and B6 in their support of American jobs? Even if people cared, they would also care about Boeing's commitment to American jobs by supporting the ME3 and having a majority of the components of the 787 made outside the USA. 77X to follow suit.

The problem with older 777 or 767 is not CAPEX, but fuel burn. The new frames will offer 15 to 20 lower fuel burn per seat, all the same if we talk about a 787 or A350 or even a A330neo. Deltas decision went against the 787 and for the A330/A350. The obvious fleets to be replaced are not the current A330, they are rather young, but a few left over old 747-400, the oldest 767-300/300ER and the oldest 777-200ER.

DL has 18 777 in its fleet and 25 350s on order together with the 42 330 in its fleet and the NEO orders DLs direction is quite clear.