A220 (CSeries) orders and possible orders for 2018

OA940 · Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:06 pm

Is the European order actually signed (MoU or LOI or whatever) or is it just a rumor? At this point I'm really wishing for more orders (Then again I'm always wishing for more CS orders. If only airlines could see it for its true potential)

bigjku · Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:25 pm

OA940 wrote:
Is the European order actually signed (MoU or LOI or whatever) or is it just a rumor? At this point I'm really wishing for more orders (Then again I'm always wishing for more CS orders. If only airlines could see it for its true potential)

I am pretty sure they do...

What compelling argument are they missing?

CFRPwingALbody · Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:05 pm

I think we shouldn't expect a lot of CSeries orders untill the 50.01% CSALP takeover has been complected.
The uncertainty about this takeover is slowing down orders for the CSeries.

ExMilitaryEng · Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:22 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I think we shouldn't expect a lot of CSeries orders untill the 50.01% CSALP takeover has been complected.
The uncertainty about this takeover is slowing down orders for the CSeries.

100% agree.
Who would not? The program will soon be owned (50.01%), secured and supported by Airbus. Better wait a few more months, and sign with a financially bomb proof party...

9252fly · Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:54 pm

In the meantime hopefully BBD can sort out it's production issues. They will need to consistently start delivering aircraft to DL later this year, never mind the deliveries that need to go out to LX, KE and BT prior. I do agree that finalizing the Airbus agreement will go a long way improving the sales prospects of the C-Series.

lightsaber · Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:14 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
According to Flightglobal, United is "very seriously" looking at both the C's and the E2's as a main line jet.

I hope both orders happen. As a Pratt fan, either vendor.

Jetsouth · Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:38 pm

I thought that the order from a "European customer" was to be finalized early in 2018. Have not heard anything. Is this order still alive? Or are they waiting to announce until the Airbus deal is finalized?

Polot · Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:45 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
I thought that the order from a "European customer" was to be finalized early in 2018. Have not heard anything. Is this order still alive? Or are they waiting to announce until the Airbus deal is finalized?

Leeham speculated the other day that the customer might be waiting for the Airbus deal to close. Originally BBD was hoping to the get the order firmed by the end of last year.

YXXMIKE · Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:43 am

There seems to be some speculation from Flieger Faust that Ilyushin Finance have found a client for their 20 frames and he specifically mentions an airline with lots of red in their livery. Thoughts?

runway23 · Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:50 am

YXXMIKE wrote:
There seems to be some speculation from Flieger Faust that Ilyushin Finance have found a client for their 20 frames and he specifically mentions an airline with lots of red in their livery. Thoughts?

Qantaslink ? They have 20 717s.

deltadawg · Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:12 pm

LG........with 6 older 737 would be a great candidate for 6 to 10 CS300's. YM also seems like a good fit with three E195's and two F100's seems like the CS100 would give them opportunity to extend the route possibilities to longer destinations as well as standardize the fleet. If I were BT I would go after some of these 5-10 fleet sized airlines and offer leases to them for CS100/300's with maintenance agreements, etc. BT could become the TechOps in Europe for CSeries like DL but on a smaller scale.

wezgulf3 · Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:39 pm

YXXMIKE wrote:
There seems to be some speculation from Flieger Faust that Ilyushin Finance have found a client for their 20 frames and he specifically mentions an airline with lots of red in their livery. Thoughts?

Could Redwings be a candidate?

Wes...

DALCE · Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:59 pm

Laudamotion? Testing the waters for FR? just a thought

Jetsouth · Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:34 pm

Fliegerfaust seems to imply that the 20 plane order is from a new Russian airline.

Dash9 · Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:33 pm

Redwings has 4x A320 and 3x A321 so much less than the 20x CS300 frames and also as sharp decline in seat count.
Rossiya has 26x A319 right in the sweet spot for 20x CS300 and a similar seat count.

Both have a red livery. If that rumor is true me think Rossiya is the lucky winner for the ILFC CS300 birds.

Sources:
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Red% ... rlines.htm
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Rossiya.htm

nikeson13 · Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:52 pm

I second Rossiya. They also have 20x SSJ100 on order. IMO, the CS300 would be absolutely stunning with their livery. Would not surprised to see FV take the 20x from Ilyushin and more for expansion (which they have done rapidly since Transaero collapsed) or instead of the SSJs. Redwings used to have 5x SSJs but were removed from the fleet after a little over a year, plus WZ has a small fleet of 12x compared to FV with 60x.

But as for an announcement for this and other orders we have to wait for the BBD-AB deal to go through, which is estimated to be complete by the end of May.

danimarroquin · Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:59 pm

AV , to replace the aging fleet of EMB 190 and A318 .

northstardc4m · Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:32 pm

Well to me if it's a Russian airline with lots of red:

Nordwind... they have nothing that size but if they want to move into that size?
Rossiya... A319 replacement maybe
RedWings... seems out of place, too small for them?

I'd go with Rossiya out of the 3.

LockheedBBD · Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:37 pm

I need to see it to believe it. Bombardier's promised European order still hasn't materialized, and Fligerfaust always comes up with rumors, some of them true, some of them false.

marktci · Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:08 pm

Red Wings orders 6 CS300s for 2019 delivery. Though the story is a little confusing as to whether these are new orders (by State Finance Leasing Company, the apparent lessor).

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/red-wings ... -delivery/

jbs2886 · Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:32 pm

marktci wrote:
Red Wings orders 6 CS300s for 2019 delivery. Though the story is a little confusing as to whether these are new orders (by State Finance Leasing Company, the apparent lessor).

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/red-wings ... -delivery/

Other reports are clear that these are leased from Illyushin.

Jetsouth · Mon May 28, 2018 11:25 am

Is the AirBaltic order for 30 jets just announced the fulfillment of the LOI from an "unspecified European operator" last December?

Amiga500 · Mon May 28, 2018 2:32 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
Is the AirBaltic order for 30 jets just announced the fulfillment of the LOI from an "unspecified European operator" last December?

All the talk at the time was that it wasn't an existing operator, however looking back through the press releases, I see no hard evidence to support this....?

a/c dxer · Mon May 28, 2018 2:48 pm

So I'm curious since the airbus deal isn't finalised would the deposit from the Air Baltic deal go into BBD coffers? Or does it really matter? Think this is a sign the Airbus deal is close to being finalised and we should hear something very shortly.

Amiga500 · Mon May 28, 2018 3:04 pm

a/c dxer wrote:
So I'm curious since the airbus deal isn't finalised would the deposit from the Air Baltic deal go into BBD coffers? Or does it really matter? Think this is a sign the Airbus deal is close to being finalised and we should hear something very shortly.

Jetsouth · Mon May 28, 2018 3:14 pm

Would be an adjustment on closing. Would not matter who would get the deposit.

ote="a/c dxer"]So I'm curious since the airbus deal isn't finalised would the deposit from the Air Baltic deal go into BBD coffers? Or does it really matter? Think this is a sign the Airbus deal is close to being finalised and we should hear something very shortly.[/quote]

a/c dxer · Mon May 28, 2018 3:21 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
Would be an adjustment on closing. Would not matter who would get the deposit.

ote="a/c dxer"]So I'm curious since the airbus deal isn't finalised would the deposit from the Air Baltic deal go into BBD coffers? Or does it really matter? Think this is a sign the Airbus deal is close to being finalised and we should hear something very shortly.

[/quote]

Thanks that's what I was wondering. Haven't seen a closing price on the Airbus deal just what percentage they would own. Pretty sure BBD just isn't handing over the C-series Airbus will be paying something for the partnership.

bigjku · Mon May 28, 2018 3:39 pm

a/c dxer wrote:
Jetsouth wrote:
Would be an adjustment on closing. Would not matter who would get the deposit.

ote="a/c dxer"]So I'm curious since the airbus deal isn't finalised would the deposit from the Air Baltic deal go into BBD coffers? Or does it really matter? Think this is a sign the Airbus deal is close to being finalised and we should hear something very shortly.

Thanks that's what I was wondering. Haven't seen a closing price on the Airbus deal just what percentage they would own. Pretty sure BBD just isn't handing over the C-series Airbus will be paying something for the partnership.[/quote]

Bombardier is effectively paying Airbus.

danimarroquin · Mon May 28, 2018 3:45 pm

what would be the range for the C series from Bogota ? counting the altitude restrictions

FATFlyer · Mon May 28, 2018 4:46 pm

danimarroquin wrote:
what would be the range for the C series from Bogota ? counting the altitude restrictions

Bombardier has a web page with maps showing the C series range from different cities in the world. Bogota is at the bottom of the Americas tab on this page.
http://commercialaircraft.bombardier.com/en/cseries/Flexibility/Range-Capabilities.html

If their assumptions on the map for Bogota are accurate, it should give you a pretty good idea of the range.

PlanesNTrains · Mon May 28, 2018 5:05 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Jetsouth wrote:
Is the AirBaltic order for 30 jets just announced the fulfillment of the LOI from an "unspecified European operator" last December?

All the talk at the time was that it wasn't an existing operator, however looking back through the press releases, I see no hard evidence to support this....?

Hopefully it wasn't about AirBaltic. It'd be nice to see another order on the heels of this one. A little momentum in this program wouldn't hurt.

Jetsouth · Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:51 pm

Apparently there is/will be a new order for 60 CS300 from a new airline to be formed in the US called Moxy.

Jetsouth · Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:57 pm

I wonder if the new order from Moxy is taking over the order placed by Republic, which was for 40, plus 40 options. Taking over the firm order made by Republic of the 40 and converting 20 of the options into a firm order.

airnorth · Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:01 pm

Here is a link:

http://montrealgazette.com/business/loc ... ies-report

LockheedBBD · Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:16 pm

I'm a bit skeptical about "Moxy Airways" becoming a reality. They still have a long way to go.

PlanesNTrains · Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:31 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
I wonder if the new order from Moxy is taking over the order placed by Republic, which was for 40, plus 40 options. Taking over the firm order made by Republic of the 40 and converting 20 of the options into a firm order.

I’m guessing it’s a new order.

NWADTWE16 · Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:52 pm

So far Neelman has been a great asset for getting new passenger friendly airlines to market. Very excited for this, especially if they link up with their parent.

YYZYYT · Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:23 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
I'm a bit skeptical about "Moxy Airways" becoming a reality. They still have a long way to go.

New airlines are announced up here in Canada all the time, that never happen or die quickly (several in the works at the moment), so I generally agree with you. But, Neelman did it successfully once already. I'm a huge fan of Jetblue when I fly in the US, so I have my fingers crossed!

OA940 · Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:33 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
Apparently there is/will be a new order for 60 CS300 from a new airline to be formed in the US called Moxy.

Once again, Moxy is a WIP name. It's not official yet.

SteelChair · Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:35 pm

With 30 more for airBaltic and 60 supposedly for Moxy, on top of the existing large Delta and Air Canada orders, at what point do potential new customers not order because there are no delivery slots given the slow rate of deliveries?

iamlucky13 · Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:27 am

SteelChair wrote:
With 30 more for airBaltic and 60 supposedly for Moxy, on top of the existing large Delta and Air Canada orders, at what point do potential new customers not order because there are no delivery slots given the slow rate of deliveries?

Several years ago, probably.

The uncertainty about Bombardier's ability to ramp up production has been a matter of concern for a while, even if over-shadowed by past concern about whether it would meet performance goals and in-service reliability targets. I was hoping that by this time they'd have settled into at least a consistent and growing pace, even if not at planned full rate. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened.

I presume, however, that most potential customers have considered the possibility that this slow pace would occur and factored that risk into their decisions about whether to pursue CSeries.

SteelChair · Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:41 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
With 30 more for airBaltic and 60 supposedly for Moxy, on top of the existing large Delta and Air Canada orders, at what point do potential new customers not order because there are no delivery slots given the slow rate of deliveries?

Several years ago, probably.

The uncertainty about Bombardier's ability to ramp up production has been a matter of concern for a while, even if over-shadowed by past concern about whether it would meet performance goals and in-service reliability targets. I was hoping that by this time they'd have settled into at least a consistent and growing pace, even if not at planned full rate. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened.

I presume, however, that most potential customers have considered the possibility that this slow pace would occur and factored that risk into their decisions about whether to pursue CSeries.

Well I agree that there is always risk with a new airplane with regard to ramping up production, and certainly airlines recognized that. However, Bombardier has made progress, it is just slower than tban planned. If I have done my math correctly they have delivered 11 this calendar year versus only 17 all of last year, so it seems safe to say that they will exceed last year's total considerably. My prediction is 30-32.....hopefully more. They seem to be stockpiling Delta 100 frames a little bit, some of those frames have been showing in the abcdlist website as under construction for months now.

Amiga500 · Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:11 am

Is moxy a proxy order for JetBlue?

Is it a load of bull?

If separate from JetBlue, would it be likely they reach the same conclusion? Or do they go elsewhere (EMB)?

SteelChair · Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:12 pm

I do not believe that Neeleman has any current connection to JetBlue.

Polot · Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:26 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I do not believe that Neeleman has any current connection to JetBlue.

Moxy has about as much to do with JetBlue as they do with Southwest Airlines, and as a public company B6 can’t really order planes “by proxy.” Why would they anyways, what would JetBlue get out of hiding an order for the C series?

teriyaki · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:21 am

Kind of off topic but one way the conspiracy could work is that Moxy orders the CSeries. JetBlue then conveniently buys the airline out and announces they are divesting their Embraers as a way out. Total conjecture at this point of course.

More interested to know if they are acquiring Republic's order and/or delivery slots.

LockheedBBD · Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:14 am

Air Lease Finance seems to be kicking the tires on the A220:

Source: https://montrealgazette.com/business/lo ... rdier-a220

Airbus’s sales and engineering expertise brings greater potential to the aircraft, Udvar-Hazy [Air Lease Corp.’s founder and chairman] said Sunday. The program was developed by Montreal-based Bombardier Inc. and formerly known as the C Series before Airbus took over a majority stake July 1.

“It’s a more attractive prospect,” Udvar-Hazy said in an interview in London ahead of the Farnborough air show. “This has changed the whole landscape in terms of its credibility.”

He said he’d like to see the A220 win an order from another U.S. carrier and predicted it would sell well in other markets such as Europe and Australia. The plane has gotten positive feedback from operators including Deutsche Lufthansa AG’s Swiss unit, Air Baltic and Korean Air, he said.

Beatyair · Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:45 am

Old rumour had Turkish ordering them.

I still see United taking some. Kirby has been spinning this subject for a while now, which is a sure sign they are interested.
With Airbus in control, united could cash in in a few A350’s to get an order of A220’s

lightsaber · Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:06 am

So unresolved at Farnborough (or I missed them):
United
Kenya
Spirit

All three are bidding E2-195 vs. A220-300 (possible -100 take-up)

JetBlue is known A220, Ethiopian decided not to buy in this size category.

Delta is rumored to take up options...

I do not believe we have seen the last significant A220 order of 2018. : hyper:

Lightsaber

NWADTWE16 · Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:11 am

I think DL orders 100 A223, Spirit comes on for 50 and 50 split between the 100 and 300 models. I think United is going to E jets, because UA tends to always get it wrong. Kenya is a wildcard, but I presume they need that distance and good fuel burn, so A220 would be a winner for them as well

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