Getting reports of plane crash in North Saskatchewan, Canada

Any insight what happened
https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/mobile/pla ... -1.3720976

Being reported as an ATR42 belonging to West Wind, multiple injuries no fatalities reported. Occurred on takeoff, less than 1KM from the runway.
Company has 5 ATR42-300/320's in fleet per Wiki

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon ... -1.4447787

It's a miracle everyone survived crashing into the bush. A merge of this thread and: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1381051 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1381083 is needed by the mods.

Working on ATRs in northern Canada myself (different operator) my heart sank something fast when I saw the photo on CBC, I thought for sure there'd be folks who didn't make it out. Still a bad day for aviation when something like that happens, but not nearly as bad as it could have been.

I'm very curious to read the final reports when they become available. It is far too early to even begin speculating what happened.

Flaps look to be at takeoff setting, prop looks like it was turning, I doubt it was over loaded at that point in the trip (22 passengers sounds light, but usually northern routes are heavy on the cargo, but it looks like they had already made a stop or two). The weather looks like there was probably icing around but I doubt enough to bring down an airplane, and the ATRs are not as bad in icing these days as people make them out to be. I suspect the usual trap of several little things happened to line up last night.

The ATRs did have icing problems initially, however since the initial ice-related crashes the on board computers have been reprogrammed, the de-ice boots have been redesigned, additional ice detection systems have been installed, and procedures have been updated accordingly. At this point ATRs have been operating in northern Canada for many years and it's been proven that they work just fine up here.

I am almost sure it was C-GWEA (msn 240) as the flight/routing matches Flightradar24.

Oh no! I hope Thebes he’s for all the passengers!
Might have something to do with the previous ATR crashes and engine troubles, like the one in Pakistan and Taiwan.

Another pic here
http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-ne ... ond-du-lac

BENAir01 wrote:

Oh no! I hope Thebes he’s for all the passengers!
Might have something to do with the previous ATR crashes and engine troubles, like the one in Pakistan and Taiwan.

Might. Might not.

V/F

IMO there’s nothing in the METAR that would indicate any dangerous or unusual weather conditions that experienced pilots flying in this region in winter wouldn’t normally face. And the crew would be used to flying at night. Based on that normalcy (experience) of flying in this Northern climate continuously, likely not the lack of deicing as a contributor, and ice buildup on control surfaces as a contributor. However, malfunction of the normal systems (unrelated to ice) was certainly possible, including aileron, rudder, elevators, fuel supply to engines, etc. anomalies. Since the news reports indicate passengers/survivors (thank God, including that there was not…IMO miraculously….a post crash fire with all of that fuel spillage) and also rescuers were drenched in aircraft fuel, fuel starvation (a fuel tank loading issue) wouldn’t be a contributor.

From the photos posted on Aviation Herald, one of the photos seems to indicate the crash direction (via debris field) was toward the SW or S (aircraft left turn after takeoff for final heading to the E to CYSF), as it appears the channel of Lake Athabasca near Fon Du Lac is in the distance. Possibly an aircraft system issue after or during the left turn? Obviously the major clues of what happened during the climb out will come from the pilots recovering from the accident. Once again, looking at the posted photos, it is simply a miracle that everybody survived this accident. Likely an initial encounter with the (relatively small diameter) trees higher up helped fend off the descent to the ground as much as possible by deceleration and slowing of the aircraft (via energy absorption) that the smaller, ductile/flexible tree limbs higher up provided.

What sort of flying does West Wind do? Is the aircraft a combi conversion? Could it have been inadvertently overloaded, like that one in Papua New Guinea?

CanadianNorth wrote:

The weather looks like there was probably icing around but I doubt enough to bring down an airplane, and the ATRs are not as bad in icing these days as people make them out to be. I suspect the usual trap of several little things happened to line up last night.

The ATRs did have icing problems initially, however since the initial ice-related crashes the on board computers have been reprogrammed, the de-ice boots have been redesigned, additional ice detection systems have been installed, and procedures have been updated accordingly. At this point ATRs have been operating in northern Canada for many years and it's been proven that they work just fine up here.

It wasn't even that bad to begin with. The American Eagle crash was a result of the crew not operating the de/anti-icing systems properly in the first place, and ultimately ATR not providing the proper training and documentation to operate it correctly.

VSMUT wrote:

What sort of flying does West Wind do? Is the aircraft a combi conversion? Could it have been inadvertently overloaded, like that one in Papua New Guinea?

CanadianNorth wrote:

The weather looks like there was probably icing around but I doubt enough to bring down an airplane, and the ATRs are not as bad in icing these days as people make them out to be. I suspect the usual trap of several little things happened to line up last night.

The ATRs did have icing problems initially, however since the initial ice-related crashes the on board computers have been reprogrammed, the de-ice boots have been redesigned, additional ice detection systems have been installed, and procedures have been updated accordingly. At this point ATRs have been operating in northern Canada for many years and it's been proven that they work just fine up here.

It wasn't even that bad to begin with. The American Eagle crash was a result of the crew not operating the de/anti-icing systems properly in the first place, and ultimately ATR not providing the proper training and documentation to operate it correctly.

??? The crew had no bearing on the causes of the Roselawn accident:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... AR9601.pdf

"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of
this accident was the loss of control, attributed to a sudden and unexpected aileron
hinge moment reversal, that occurred after a ridge of ice accreted beyond the deice boots. "

There was nothing the crew could of done in the situation. They operated the system EXACTLY as their training and information advised them to, and it was not operated incorrectly. The simple fact is the boots were the wrong shape and allowed a ridge of ice to disrupt the airflow beyond their area of action... a design flaw. It's that simple. It was rectified and I doubt it has any bearing on this incident however.

In addition to NorthStar's sage words, not only was the de-icing boot redesigned as a result of the Roselawn crash, but pilot procedures during icing conditions also changed. The American Eagle crew flew the aircraft correctly as they were taught, using specified procedures at the time.

I find this incident report rather disturbing.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a2b3fc0&opt=0

This ATR when flown correctly in icing conditions resulted in a decent at 540 fpm! With both engines running! It could only climb or barely hold altitude when flying at an incorrect slower speed.

Daylight photos have been released:





See https://twitter.com/airplusnews/status/ ... 6260411392

longhauler wrote:

In addition to NorthStar's sage words, not only was the de-icing boot redesigned as a result of the Roselawn crash, but pilot procedures during icing conditions also changed. The American Eagle crew flew the aircraft correctly as they were taught, using specified procedures at the time.

I find this incident report rather disturbing.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a2b3fc0&opt=0

This ATR when flown correctly in icing conditions resulted in a decent at 540 fpm! With both engines running! It could only climb or barely hold altitude when flying at an incorrect slower speed.

As I recall in the Roselawn accident, the crew had been holding in icing condition with the flaps extended. As I recall from the ATR Flight Manual, doing so was prohibiited. Or is my memory deceiving me?

FlyHossD wrote:

As I recall in the Roselawn accident, the crew had been holding in icing condition with the flaps extended. As I recall from the ATR Flight Manual, doing so was prohibiited. Or is my memory deceiving me?

The crew did extend, then retract flaps while holding in icing conditions. In fact it appears the loss of control started with the flap retraction during decent. I was not aware though, that this controvened ATR operating manuals at the time.

If you check out this summary of the accident ....

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19941031-1

Then go to the Probable Causes, although many are cited, use of flaps was not mentioned. In fact no crew actions were mentioned. That doesn't mean it wasn't contributing, just that it didn't make this summary. One would have to check out the official NTSB report.

VirginFlyer wrote:

BENAir01 wrote:

Oh no! I hope Thebes he’s for all the passengers!
Might have something to do with the previous ATR crashes and engine troubles, like the one in Pakistan and Taiwan.

Might. Might not.

V/F

Probably not . . . :

If referring to engine troubles, I'm fairly sure that it will be unrelated to the Taiwan accident (apart from crew actions shutting down an healthy engine). The Taiwan accident involved PW127 series engine where an internal circuit board failure in the AFU (Auto Feather Unit) caused an uncommanded autofeather and spool down.

The ATR42 in this incident appears to be a -300 series, which is powered by PW120 or PW121 engines, neither of which employs AFU units.
That is not to say that there was not any enigne related problem(s).

PW100

Absolutely incredible that everyone survived. Those pictures would lead you to believe otherwise. I hope a good investigation is completed and everyone learns from the outcome.

TSB just released an update stating the aircraft had encountered icing on the inbound leg and wasn't de-iced prior to departure...

Sequence of events

On 13 December 2017, an ATR 42-320 aircraft operated by West Wind Aviation arrived at Fond-du-Lac Airport at 1725 central standard time.
During the descent, the aircraft encountered icing conditions and the anti-icing and de-icing systems were activated. When the de-icing and anti-icing systems were turned off, residual ice remained on portions of the aircraft.
The aircraft stayed at the Fond-du-Lac Airport to board new passengers and cargo.
The operator, West Wind Aviation, had some de-icing equipment in the terminal building (see photos) at the airport. The de-icing equipment that was available to WestWind Aviation in Fond-du-Lac consisted of two ladders, a hand-held spray bottle with electric blanket and wand, and a container of de-icing fluid. However, the aircraft was not de-iced before takeoff, and the takeoff was commenced with ice contamination on the aircraft.
The aircraft departed Fond-du-Lac Airport at 1811 for Stony Rapids.
At 1812, shortly after takeoff, the aircraft collided with trees and terrain less than a mile west of the end of Runway 28.

The De-icer in question


http://bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inves ... 7c0146.asp
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatche ... -1.4631451

UM... what?!?!

If you are deicing a Cessna Caravan, sure. But an ATR....

Pure negligence. Transport Canada did the right thing pulling their certification.

Beech

Transport Canada have just reinstated West Wind's certificate, thereby permitting them to restart operations: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/t ... 85571.html