I'm not surprised. Delta had already been trending Airbus with their previous orders for the A321, A330Neo and A350. No doubt Boeing has lost Delta.

Congrats to Airbus and P & W.

So the Delta A321NEO config will be:
5 rows of 2x2 business (20 seats)
5 rows of 3x3 premium economy (30 seats); and
25 rows of 3x3 economy (147 seats)
I wonder if the option is for 100x A321NEO or also A321LR and A319NEO or A320NEO could be ordered.

ap305 wrote:

Reading between the lines of what Enders said in the Airbus release(calling PW partners), it would appear that this was a Airbus/Pw vs Boeing/cfm fight. Perhaps JL's assertions of recent past about G.E batting almost entirely for Boeing are not far off the mark. This does not bode well for G.E which has historically done well with both manufacturers but seems to have taken a Boeing bias thus limiting its market share potential.

I think you're forgetting the Airbus/CFM option. (Two options against one, ...)

airbazar wrote:

The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.

They SIMPLY do not get it......The only replacement for a 757 is another 757

Sooner787 wrote:

SESGDL wrote:

727LOVER wrote:

We are near the end of 2017. So in 7 years, on Dec 31, 2024....how many Boeings will be in DL's fleet?

The 739ERs and maybe a few 738s left. Is that it? Would 717, 757, 767 be all gone?

SCARY to think.....FOR SOME

No way will 717s be gone, and I think some of the newest 757s may still be flying by then. Also, the 767-400 and 777s will still likely (almost certainly) be flying as well, so a very sizable Boeing fleet (250-300+ aircraft) will still be flying in DL colors for many years to come.

Jeremy

The 717's will be gone as soon as DL's legal dept can figure a way to dance around the C Series tariffs.
I'm thinking DL will end up leasing C series from some off shore entity , with foreign registration ( Ireland . Bermuda) ?

I also think the 777 fleet will be gone sooner than later. The A359's can replace them.

DL loves their 717's and would buy more if they could. I do not see those exiting the fleet any time soon

Ed also mentioned internally that the Cseries will not be on property until late 2018-early 2019 and they will be Mobile built.

727LOVER wrote:

We are near the end of 2017. So in 7 years, on Dec 31, 2024....how many Boeings will be in DL's fleet?

The 739ERs and maybe a few 738s left. Is that it? Would 717, 757, 767 be all gone?

SCARY to think.....FOR SOME

My quick guess would be that the 753s and 764s would be remaining, along with the newest 763s and 752s. I think it's a greater than 50/50 chance the 717s will be in the process of leaving or gone by then. It's going to run into the same problems as the MDs as an orphan fleet. Still most Boeings will be gone by 2024, IMO.

Antarius wrote:

DL loves their 717's and would buy more if they could. I do not see those exiting the fleet any time soon

The C Series will be a great replacement for them over time. Seems like too many people think the C Series will descend on Atlanta in one great wave. The orders will be structured to arrive over a period of several years, and follow-on orders would take them up to and including the projected 717 retirements.

The engines on the 717 are what will see it into retirement. Eventually the economic case will be there to upgrade.

777Mech wrote:

Ed also mentioned internally that the Cseries will not be on property until late 2018-early 2019 and they will be Mobile built.

I can't see any way a Cseries plane is delivered from Airbus's Mobile plant in just over a year.

Dalmd88 wrote:

There has been very little mentioned about the scope of the PW MRO work. I have been told it is a 30 year deal for 180 engine visits a year. roughly 1/3 would be DL fleet engines and the rest customer engines. That is a lot of in sourcing coming with these airplanes. I would guess the money coming in from these visits will have a huge impact on the true cost of these planes.

It was mentioned in another news item that this is why Boeing did not have a chance of winning this order. No way Boeing could offer what Airbus and P/W did for Delta. But if tying the CS situation into this gives one a warm feeling of a moral victory over Boeing, so be it.

Delta TechoOps is going to be making some money.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-jet-deal

The more I think about this the more impressed I am with Delta's negotiating skills. Airbus is going to be making plenty on spares and services but getting that overhaul guarantee is brilliant.

scbriml wrote:

I can't see any way a Cseries plane is delivered from Airbus's Mobile plant in just over a year.

Why not, it is the holy grail of Airbus production which get's very little details on this site, so to add to the trend, I would not be shocked if they also have facilities for A380 production.

[twoid][/twoid]

par13del wrote:

scbriml wrote:

I can't see any way a Cseries plane is delivered from Airbus's Mobile plant in just over a year.

Why not, it is not the holy grail of Airbus production which get's very little details on this site, so to add to the trend, I would not be shocked if they also have facilities for A380 production.

There are absolutely no facilities for the A380 in Mobile. You have to realize there is a lot that goes in to producing an assembley line for a totally different aircraft.

scbriml wrote:

777Mech wrote:

Ed also mentioned internally that the Cseries will not be on property until late 2018-early 2019 and they will be Mobile built.

I can't see any way a Cseries plane is delivered from Airbus's Mobile plant in just over a year.

I think it will,be along the lines of either shipping sections by rail or barge, and just assembling them there. From what I've heard the tooling is already on the way.

I had to edit my post, apologies for the "not".

Channex757 wrote:

Antarius wrote:

DL loves their 717's and would buy more if they could. I do not see those exiting the fleet any time soon

The C Series will be a great replacement for them over time. Seems like too many people think the C Series will descend on Atlanta in one great wave. The orders will be structured to arrive over a period of several years, and follow-on orders would take them up to and including the projected 717 retirements.

The engines on the 717 are what will see it into retirement. Eventually the economic case will be there to upgrade.

The BR-710 engines used by the 717 are pretty new technology- definitely newer and more advanced than the CFM's on the 737NG /A320ceo and that's a big part of what makes the 717 so desired by airlines. The BR700 engine family keeps improving as well, with the BR-715 on the super successful G650

777Mech wrote:

scbriml wrote:

777Mech wrote:

Ed also mentioned internally that the Cseries will not be on property until late 2018-early 2019 and they will be Mobile built.

I can't see any way a Cseries plane is delivered from Airbus's Mobile plant in just over a year.

I think it will,be along the lines of either shipping sections by rail or barge, and just assembling them there. From what I've heard the tooling is already on the way.

I believe this was already the plan, but don't they have to build an additional facility?

Would they set this fleet up the same as the CEOs for short(er) range operations or would they be the full transcon config'd type?

SCAT15F wrote:

Channex757 wrote:

Antarius wrote:

DL loves their 717's and would buy more if they could. I do not see those exiting the fleet any time soon

The C Series will be a great replacement for them over time. Seems like too many people think the C Series will descend on Atlanta in one great wave. The orders will be structured to arrive over a period of several years, and follow-on orders would take them up to and including the projected 717 retirements.

The engines on the 717 are what will see it into retirement. Eventually the economic case will be there to upgrade.

The BR-710 engines used by the 717 are pretty new technology- definitely newer and more advanced than the CFM's on the 737NG /A320ceo and that's a big part of what makes the 717 so desired by airlines. The BR700 engine family keeps improving as well, with the BR-715 on the super successful G650

They are still a technology generation older than the latest motors. The PW especially has room to further reduce its fuel burn.

The most important qualifier in my post is the word "eventually". The 717 has a replacement already lined up, so eventually the C Series will be its replacement and fit nicely into the plans of Delta. It should be a deal like previous aircraft where as they come up against major overhauls then they get parked.

Look at the Delta Fleet, after 20-28 years planes have to be replaced. So the 717's have at least 3.9-11.9 years of service life to go. Delta's MD88's and 747-400 are really old. Then come the A320's, 767-300's 767-300ER's, MD90's, 757-200's.
I think the CS100 will go to Delta, only several years later. So the A321NEO's will replace: MD88, MD90, A320 and A321LR the 757-200 or a new MOM has to come to market within five years time.

Let's add a link to Delta's current A321's, removal of door-pair two adds 5 seats (1E+ & 4E) (and a lavatory).

xdlx wrote:

airbazar wrote:

The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.

They SIMPLY do not get it......The only replacement for a 757 is another 757

Just like the only replacement for a steam train is another steam train..... Train lovers would like to have nothing else but railroads can't make money one them for normal operations.

Channex757 wrote:

SCAT15F wrote:

Channex757 wrote:

The C Series will be a great replacement for them over time. Seems like too many people think the C Series will descend on Atlanta in one great wave. The orders will be structured to arrive over a period of several years, and follow-on orders would take them up to and including the projected 717 retirements.

The engines on the 717 are what will see it into retirement. Eventually the economic case will be there to upgrade.

The BR-710 engines used by the 717 are pretty new technology- definitely newer and more advanced than the CFM's on the 737NG /A320ceo and that's a big part of what makes the 717 so desired by airlines. The BR700 engine family keeps improving as well, with the BR-715 on the super successful G650

They are still a technology generation older than the latest motors. The PW especially has room to further reduce its fuel burn.

The most important qualifier in my post is the word "eventually". The 717 has a replacement already lined up, so eventually the C Series will be its replacement and fit nicely into the plans of Delta. It should be a deal like previous aircraft where as they come up against major overhauls then they get parked.

The BR-715 is not efficient by today's standard. As much as the 717 is loved on a.net, it didn't sell well as the A319 and 73G make more money.

The C-series has a larger, more aerodynamic wing, better engines, and even lower maintenance costs.

AngMoh wrote:

xdlx wrote:

airbazar wrote:

The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.

They SIMPLY do not get it......The only replacement for a 757 is another 757

Just like the only replacement for a steam train is another steam train..... Train lovers would like to have nothing else but railroads can't make money one them for normal operations.

Great illustration.

Well for all those that gave me grief in the Delta Airbus vs. Boeing RFP thread, where I said DL will go with Airbus thanks to them screwing-up their CS-100 order, all I can say is, I told you so!

How many A321CEOs are still to be delivered for DL?

gatibosgru wrote:

How many A321CEOs are still to be delivered for DL?

For the sake of being thorough, I included all the outstanding deliveries for recent orders (and options)

A321ceo = 92
A321neo = 100 + 100 options*
A330neo = 25
A359 = 29

CS100 = 75 outstanding orders**

739 = 42 outstanding orders

* - possible conversions to 320neos / 321neoLRs (?)
** - possible conversions to CS300 / CS500 (should it ever come to fruition)

DTWorld wrote:

A359 = 29

This should read 20 not 29. 25 ordered and 5 delivered.

Just to clarify, they expect a 2 year delay for the C-series to come out of Mobile. Late 2019, early 2020 at the latest.
Of the Cseries 75 firm, 50 options, taking all options. First 35 CS-100, the rest CS-300. 15 firm 350-900, 10 options. Pushing to have all 15 350s by end of 2018. Possible split or total conversion of those 10 options into additional 330-900NEO.

seahawk wrote:

If I understand it correctly GE was not willing to give DL maintenance the MRO capability for the LEAP.

Amiga500 wrote:

With Boeing now looking to make MRO a major revenue stream in its own right, does that not make them a direct competitor to TechOps?

In which case, is it any surprise DL didn't go with them?

I did also read about P&W being much more flexible than CFM when it comes to 3rd parties maintaining their engines.

Very, very interesting. Another possible factor that worked in favor of the A321.

jeffrey0032j wrote:

True, DL TechOps would be missing out on a very huge slice of potential MRO contracts if they simply brush away 787s (esp GENx), considering that the 787 is now commonplace. Similarly for the 737MAX, it wouldn't do DL any good if they don't have any 737 MAX maintenance capabilities especially if the Poseidon platform gets MAXed (which is quite likely to happen), especially when they are working on P8As now.

You do have a point with the 787, but there does come a point where the plane still has to make sense as a piece of the fleet before it becomes another type their MRO can service. With the 737 I would think they would be able to handle most of the MAX without too much trouble considering is still is a 737, of course a type they know very well. The biggest differences would be the engines and to a lesser degree the OMF as well.

mat66 wrote:

This is what I thought, as well. As I understand it the only optional part is the second pair of over wing exits and if doors 3 are activated or not. Doors 2 are gone for good.

I read the runway girl slide that came complete with typos and I was confused by this. It seemed to suggest that if all the optional exits are deactivated leaving it with an A319 style exit configuration the max capacity limit is 195 or thereabouts. Certainly it must be actually trying to say that this would be the case if one or the other, but not both were deactivated.

DTWorld wrote:

gatibosgru wrote:

How many A321CEOs are still to be delivered for DL?

For the sake of being thorough, I included all the outstanding deliveries for recent orders (and options)

A321ceo = 92
A321neo = 100 + 100 options*
A330neo = 25
A359 = 29

CS100 = 75 outstanding orders**

739 = 42 outstanding orders

* - possible conversions to 320neos / 321neoLRs (?)
** - possible conversions to CS300 / CS500 (should it ever come to fruition)

And +50 options for the CS100.

767333ER wrote:

Amiga500 wrote:

With Boeing now looking to make MRO a major revenue stream in its own right, does that not make them a direct competitor to TechOps?

In which case, is it any surprise DL didn't go with them?

I did also read about P&W being much more flexible than CFM when it comes to 3rd parties maintaining their engines.

Very, very interesting. Another possible factor that worked in favor of the A321.

It does not surprise me PW are willing to cut a better deal to Delta than GE, considering their respective position/reputation in the engine world. However, you could ask when evaluating this lost order, Boeing will ask GE to play along more in future deals, or re-evaluate the lack of engine choice (Same applies to Airbus WBs with RR...). The one-engine-per-plane deal does not only have advantages it seems now.

Anyway, looking into my crystal ball, I see an order for some very cheap 787s coming to Delta somewhere next year.

FrancisBegbie wrote:

It does not surprise me PW are willing to cut a better deal to Delta than GE, considering their respective position/reputation in the engine world. However, you could ask when evaluating this lost order, Boeing will ask GE to play along more in future deals, or re-evaluate the lack of engine choice (Same applies to Airbus WBs with RR...).

According to some, it wasn't about the engine choice, but giving DL TechOps MRO authority for engine service. Pratt was willing to allow it, GE wasn't. More power to Pratt!! Kudos!

FrancisBegbie wrote:

Anyway, looking into my crystal ball, I see an order for some very cheap 787s coming to Delta somewhere next year.

Nope, 787 at Delta is a done thing, won't happen.
Now, NMA is totally different animal... If Boeing will allow next-gen PW GTF on it, Delta launching this plane is 100% sure thing. NMA will fit their lower-end 767-300ER replacement requirement perfectly.

BlueSky1976 wrote:

FrancisBegbie wrote:

It does not surprise me PW are willing to cut a better deal to Delta than GE, considering their respective position/reputation in the engine world. However, you could ask when evaluating this lost order, Boeing will ask GE to play along more in future deals, or re-evaluate the lack of engine choice (Same applies to Airbus WBs with RR...).

According to some, it wasn't about the engine choice, but giving DL TechOps MRO authority for engine service. Pratt was willing to allow it, GE wasn't. More power to Pratt!! Kudos!

I think we are saying the same. The maintenance deal offered gave PW the hand over GE. And thus Airbus over Boeing (all other things equal). Not how I'd like it if I were Boeing...

BlueSky1976 wrote:

Nope, 787 at Delta is a done thing, won't happen.
Now, NMA is totally different animal... If Boeing will allow next-gen PW GTF on it, Delta launching this plane is 100% sure thing. NMA will fit their lower-end 767-300ER replacement requirement perfectly.

It's a very cheap crystal ball from the flea market . Who knows what will happen. PR wise, Delta has Boeing cornered, so they'll need to cut DL a great deal on 787s to get back at the table. Just the way DL likes it. As the NMA will indeed have its own niche where it fits perfectly, that's where Boeing has a stronger hand over Delta. Exactly how Delta does NOT like it.

787 is too much plane to replace the transatlantic 767's. With 92 321ceo's coming, 42 more 739's coming, and possibly 200 321neo's coming, Delta has enough to replace the 100 757's, 109 MD88's. 62 MD90's, and 64 320's. I would think the C series will replace the larger regional jets and eventually the 717's, 319's, and 73G's.

FrancisBegbie wrote:

However, you could ask when evaluating this lost order, Boeing will ask GE to play along more in future deals

I think not!

GE would rightfully turn around and say; "Look in the damn mirror Dennis. Do you think Lufthansa or Delta with major MRO on the side won't be affected by you looking to move Boeing into the MRO sector in a big way? Are you actually so naive you don't think that will affect who they order aircraft from?"


Then they might recall that Boeing expected there to be not much adverse fallout from the astoundingly hypocritical legal attack on CSeries, and concluding Boeing's board are actually quite naive.

Respects to Delta's historical appreciation for the longest version of a particular class of airplane, Respects to Bastian's historical admiration of the A321 (pre and post RAnderson). Sincere respects to Tech-ops dispatch accomplishments and revenue/profit drivers.

One of Delta's historical profit drivers has been offering frequency on substantively depreciated aircraft well maintained by tech-ops. They have successfully pushed the operating life-spans of their NB planes to 27-31 years. A no-growth Delta replacement cycle for a 27 year life expectancy would be ~two new same capacity planes per month. The current NB order-book replaces 50% of the single isle planes in six years. Further, Delta pushes the limits by having 192+ two hundred seat planes on order. The order book functionally changes this historical profit driver.

Have the financial accountants, salivating over a321 paper/spreadsheet economics, ignored real world business realities? Maintaining 85% load factors on high frequency 150 seat planes is materially different than a fleet of 200 seat single isle jets. Might I suggest a "gate utilization" factor to our green visored bean counters? Business passengers should enjoy ticking away time sitting at the gate working on their spread-sheets. Leisure passengers will enjoy the long queues down the jetway and center isle of the plane. Perhaps Delta can offer gate AVOD services. A-net users will particularly appreciate the extra time, as finding data driven posts has become more arduous. Pilots will have time after pre-check to browse Amazon on their tablets. Alas, the FAs workload is unlikely to diminish as they navigate a waning customer "grumpy factor".

Perhaps before 2047 airports will discover an economical means of stacking parked planes. Opportunity alert for Bendpak engineers! http://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/parking-lifts/

Luv field executives have a level of satisfaction as they can now endeavor more brain cycles on Indigo Partners.

signed, Andy Capp

All signs point to DL been extremely aggressive on aircraft pricing, hence their willingness to purchase older aircraft to supplement their fleet. I can't imagine they didn't get a great deal on this order. So then, one has to ask about Kirby's comment re: UA not taking the A321NEO because of the MFN pricing with AA. I can't begin to imagine DL paid anything more than AA did for these aircraft, and if DL agreed to that price, then it must be pretty great.

OA412 wrote:

All signs point to DL been extremely aggressive on aircraft pricing, hence their willingness to purchase older aircraft to supplement their fleet. I can't imagine they didn't get a great deal on this order. So then, one has to ask about Kirby's comment re: UA not taking the A321NEO because of the MFN pricing with AA. I can't begin to imagine DL paid anything more than AA did for these aircraft, and if DL agreed to that price, then it must be pretty great.

topic viewtopic.php?t=1375483 hypothesizes that the Airbus has been able to maintain a floor on A321neo pricing. The AA deal was consummated during their bankruptcy phase (AA position of weakness). The less than aggressive price was softened by a MFN clause. If this is true, can we postulate that Delta's objective was MRO/engines? Airbus wiggles around MFN by encouraging Pratt to make an engine agreement. Delta softens on their 'extremely aggressive' pricing posture? Data versus scuttleb*tt... it would be interesting to get a transcript of SKirby's LAX town hall meeting.

Data anyone?

Any educated hypothesizes on nuanced/subtle undisclosed contract terms?
- A321CEO deposits can be transferred to activated A321NEO options?
- ??

amdiesen wrote:

OA412 wrote:

All signs point to DL been extremely aggressive on aircraft pricing, hence their willingness to purchase older aircraft to supplement their fleet. I can't imagine they didn't get a great deal on this order. So then, one has to ask about Kirby's comment re: UA not taking the A321NEO because of the MFN pricing with AA. I can't begin to imagine DL paid anything more than AA did for these aircraft, and if DL agreed to that price, then it must be pretty great.

topic viewtopic.php?t=1375483 hypothesizes that the Airbus has been able to maintain a floor on A321neo pricing. The AA deal was consummated during their bankruptcy phase (AA position of weakness). The less than aggressive price was softened by a MFN clause. If this is true, can we postulate that Delta's objective was MRO/engines? Airbus wiggles around MFN by encouraging Pratt to make an engine agreement. Delta softens on their 'extremely aggressive' pricing posture? Data versus scuttleb*tt... it would be interesting to get a transcript of SKirby's LAX town hall meeting.

Data anyone?

Any educated hypothesizes on nuanced/subtle undisclosed contract terms?
- A321CEO deposits can be transferred to activated A321NEO options?
- ??

As somebody else pointed out in viewtopic.php?t=1377333, Airbus may as well have given larger discounts on the A350s and A330s to compensate for higher A321neo prices:

Hamlet69 wrote:

There is also some easy ways around such a clause, too. For example, if DL chooses the A321neo in their RFP (which I strongly suspect they will, if they haven't already), they are clearly not going to want to pay more than AA. Solution? Take a further discount off the A350 and/or A330neo. In fact, I have a theory they already have such a clause in that contract, whereby further Airbus orders trigger the clause. There is certainly precedent for it. It's why I believe Boeing felt okay to go after Bombardier - they already knew they were not going to win DL's narrow body RFP.

So that's that.

Hamilton @ Leeham ( https://leehamnews.com/2017/12/15/asses ... bus-order/ ) assesses the deal as being a PR blow to Boeing, but given the 4000 order backlog and the low odds of winning in the first place, it was not a material blow to Boeing. He tells us the swing factor was the PW deal:

Sure, Airbus offered an aggressive price. So did Boeing. But the clincher appears to be what Delta emphasized during its Investors’ Day event: the deal with Pratt & Whitney for future maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) work for Delta TechOps.

CEO Ed Bastien remarked several times that the MRO will mean billions of dollars in revenue over the life of the program. TechOps will have MRO capabilities for the PW GTF engine for all of the Americas, with an estimated 5,000 engines in the program over time.

Did CFM make a similar offer to Delta for the MAX? I don’t know the answer to that but I do know from my sources that Boeing salesmen sometimes complain that CFM won’t step up to the table to help because it has an exclusive position on the 737.

So it seems that this is one case where Boeing's comfortable partnership with CFM hurt it, but then again, given all the pain that PW has given Airbus, we can see that there's pluses and minuses to every relationship.

KarelXWB wrote:

amdiesen wrote:

topic viewtopic.php?t=1375483 hypothesizes that the Airbus has been able to maintain a floor on A321neo pricing. The AA deal was consummated during their bankruptcy phase (AA position of weakness). The less than aggressive price was softened by a MFN clause. If this is true, can we postulate that Delta's objective was MRO/engines? Airbus wiggles around MFN by encouraging Pratt to make an engine agreement. Delta softens on their 'extremely aggressive' pricing posture? Data versus scuttleb*tt... it would be interesting to get a transcript of SKirby's LAX town hall meeting.

Data anyone?

Any educated hypothesizes on nuanced/subtle undisclosed contract terms?
- A321CEO deposits can be transferred to activated A321NEO options?
- ??

As somebody else pointed out in viewtopic.php?t=1377333, Airbus may as well have given larger discounts on the A350s and A330s to compensate for higher A321neo prices:

Hamlet69 wrote:

There is also some easy ways around such a clause, too. For example, if DL chooses the A321neo in their RFP (which I strongly suspect they will, if they haven't already), they are clearly not going to want to pay more than AA. Solution? Take a further discount off the A350 and/or A330neo. In fact, I have a theory they already have such a clause in that contract, whereby further Airbus orders trigger the clause. There is certainly precedent for it. It's why I believe Boeing felt okay to go after Bombardier - they already knew they were not going to win DL's narrow body RFP.

So that's that.

From what I've seen of our most recent purchase agreements, Airbus has offered us, to borrow the contract term, 'credits'. These credits can be used in the future to offset training, spares, tech support and additional aircraft procurement costs.

Chaostheory wrote:

From what I've seen of our most recent purchase agreements, Airbus has offered us, to borrow the contract term, 'credits'. These credits can be used in the future to offset training, spares, tech support and additional aircraft procurement costs.

Both A & B have used 'credits' for a long time. A credits are a bit smarter - the 'value' depends on how and when they are utilised, are conditional (for example 50+50 order - value 50% until second tranche confirmed), can be single, dual or multi-currency..................

The form and use of compensation, including credits, perhaps explains why some A380 orders remain on the books of both customers and OEM.

Revelation wrote:

So it seems that this is one case where Boeing's comfortable partnership with CFM hurt it, but then again, given all the pain that PW has given Airbus, we can see that there's pluses and minuses to every relationship.

I have long believed that exclusive engine contracts at both Airbus & Boeing have not harmed sales in the slightest. Indeed, Leahy once claimed he had never lost a sales deal because a particular brand of engine wasn't available on a given frame. However, this may actually be the first publicly acknowledged deal where the engine choice was a major deciding factor.

That said, as Leeham correctly points out, while a PR blow for Boeing, losing this contest is going to make close to no difference in the long-term.

Politics, price, wrong managent decisions, MRO contracts might have played a role.

I think that shouldn’t lead to denial/ mistification of the A321NEO vs 737-10 differences.

What about:
– lower sfc engines
– choice between two engines/OEs
– lower noise profile for noise restricted airports
– option to carry standard container/pallets in one or both cargo holds
– wider aisles/ seats for medium flights
– spacier quiter cockpit
– A330 cockpit commonality
– commonality with 1600 A321CEO’s
– ability to carry 5t more payload over 2500NM
– ability to fly fully loaded from short hot caribbean runways to e.g. Seattle or Boston.
– credible expectation for option to upgrade to a bigger plus-plus in the future.

keesje wrote:

Politics, price, wrong managent decisions, MRO contracts might have played a role.

I think that shouldn’t lead to denial/ mistification of the A321NEO vs 737-10 differences.

What about:
– lower sfc engines
– choice between two engines/OEs
– lower noise profile for noise restricted airports
– option to carry standard container/pallets in one or both cargo holds
– wider aisles/ seats for medium flights
– spacier quiter cockpit
– A330 cockpit commonality
– commonality with 1600 A321CEO’s
– ability to carry 5t more payload over 2500NM
– ability to fly fully loaded from short hot caribbean runways to e.g. Seattle or Boston.
– credible expectation for option to upgrade to a bigger plus-plus in the future.

Mistification?

Which of these will lead to "billions of dollars in revenue over the life of the program" as the MRO deal will?

A few billion dollars will clear away the "mist" pretty quickly!

Interestingly enough, der Mist translates to "manure, dung, muck, rubbish, droppings"!

airbazar wrote:

The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.

Airbus didn't BUILD a B757 capable replacement. . We can't 2nd guess Delta's fleet planning.. It will eithwe bw GOOD? Or?? It won't
Nobody BUT Delta will know!! And?? They aren't gonna Tell ANYWAY!!
Hopefully? The GTF will perform flawlessly. If it doesn't?? PWA might just deliver truck loads of money at Delta's door. But I doubt that will happen.

evank516 wrote:

airbazar wrote:

The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.
The A321NEO will never be a 757 replacement.

Agreed. The 757 is one of the most versatile planes of it's time.

I hope you realize I was being sarcastic
The 757 has loooooong been replaced by the A321 and somewhat by the B739ER
The NEO makes the A321 far superior to the 757.

Cactusjuba wrote:

Just to clarify, they expect a 2 year delay for the C-series to come out of Mobile. Late 2019, early 2020 at the latest.
Of the Cseries 75 firm, 50 options, taking all options. First 35 CS-100, the rest CS-300. 15 firm 350-900, 10 options. Pushing to have all 15 350s by end of 2018. Possible split or total conversion of those 10 options into additional 330-900NEO.

Care to share how you received this information?

DeSpringbokke wrote:

Cactusjuba wrote:

Just to clarify, they expect a 2 year delay for the C-series to come out of Mobile. Late 2019, early 2020 at the latest.
Of the Cseries 75 firm, 50 options, taking all options. First 35 CS-100, the rest CS-300. 15 firm 350-900, 10 options. Pushing to have all 15 350s by end of 2018. Possible split or total conversion of those 10 options into additional 330-900NEO.

Care to share how you received this information?

It's what's being said internally from Delta.

Any chance that any of these will be A321LRs or have Delta One seats (to replace the ex-TWA B757s)? As DL plans 197 seats on them, chances are that all exits will be activated.

Revelation wrote:

Hamilton @ Leeham ( https://leehamnews.com/2017/12/15/asses ... bus-order/ ) assesses the deal as being a PR blow to Boeing, but given the 4000 order backlog and the low odds of winning in the first place, it was not a material blow to Boeing. He tells us the swing factor was the PW deal:

Sure, Airbus offered an aggressive price. So did Boeing. But the clincher appears to be what Delta emphasized during its Investors’ Day event: the deal with Pratt & Whitney for future maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) work for Delta TechOps.

CEO Ed Bastien remarked several times that the MRO will mean billions of dollars in revenue over the life of the program. TechOps will have MRO capabilities for the PW GTF engine for all of the Americas, with an estimated 5,000 engines in the program over time.

Did CFM make a similar offer to Delta for the MAX? I don’t know the answer to that but I do know from my sources that Boeing salesmen sometimes complain that CFM won’t step up to the table to help because it has an exclusive position on the 737.

So it seems that this is one case where Boeing's comfortable partnership with CFM hurt it, but then again, given all the pain that PW has given Airbus, we can see that there's pluses and minuses to every relationship.

With the current state of P&W this won't be a loss, it will be an instant gain of skilled engineers to help with P&W maintenance.

T773ER wrote:

DeSpringbokke wrote:

Cactusjuba wrote:

Just to clarify, they expect a 2 year delay for the C-series to come out of Mobile. Late 2019, early 2020 at the latest.
Of the Cseries 75 firm, 50 options, taking all options. First 35 CS-100, the rest CS-300. 15 firm 350-900, 10 options. Pushing to have all 15 350s by end of 2018. Possible split or total conversion of those 10 options into additional 330-900NEO.

Care to share how you received this information?

It's what's being said internally from Delta.

Thanks. According the A350 site, 12 A350s are projected to be on the property by the end of next year. Interesting Delta wants an additional three. Maybe more than a few more 767-300ERs headed to the desert after next summer? If they can get those in, its the same as when the order was initially placed, six in 2017 and nine in 2018, except the rest are deferred (not really). I knew when they deferred the aircraft it was going to translate into a conversion into more A330-900 NEOs or A321 NEOs. With the announcement the other day, I can assume it will be more A330-900 NEOs. With the A330-900 NEOs range reaching 6550 nm, it can cover all present SEA-Asia flying, LAX-HND/PVG, and MSP-HND. No need for such a long range aircraft as the A350-900. Combo of the 77L and A350 can handle everything 13+ hours. Think the talk of the A350-1000 is premature and will be made relevant when the 77L will eventually need to be retired.

Not surprised at all of the CSeries. When it was announced that only the first 35 were guaranteed to be CS100s, I assumed the rest would be delivered as CS300s. Interesting Delta appears to headed to take on all 50 CS300 options. Possible pushing Airbus to move forward with the CS500? With all the aircraft ordered, by the end of 2023, it sounds like Delta will have retired the MD-90s, A320s, and domestic 757s. The NEO options sound like an eventual opening to the A320 NEO to replace the 737s by the end of next decade and possibly the LR version of the A321 NEO to replace the International 757s, assuming the LR performs in real life as well as the 75S fleet.