As the cargo market is on the rebound, Cargolux may need more 747 freighters.

Cargolux CEO Richard Forson reportedly told journalists that his airline — Europe's largest cargo carrier — is hiring 60 pilots for its Luxembourg operations in 2018 and may also add new destinations and airplanes to its network.

Forson said that "depending on circumstances next year," the carrier may add to its fleet of Boeing 747-8 and 747-400 freighters, according to a report in Luxemburger Wort, a leading daily newspaper.

Articles
https://www.wort.lu/en/business/air-car ... ee25b77bac
https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... outes.html

I could be interpreting this differently, but the actual quote from Cargolux leaves open whether it is 747Fs that may be added, or another type:

Forson said that "depending on circumstances next year," the carrier may add to its fleet of Boeing 747-8 and 747-400 freighters, according to a report in Luxemburger Wort, a leading daily newspaper.

jbs2886 wrote:

I could be interpreting this differently, but the actual quote from Cargolux leaves open whether it is 747Fs that may be added, or another type:

Forson said that "depending on circumstances next year," the carrier may add to its fleet of Boeing 747-8 and 747-400 freighters, according to a report in Luxemburger Wort, a leading daily newspaper.

Where in either of the two stories does it mention they are thinking of anything else but used 747 freighters ?

Are there many used 747 freighters available right now?

Hopefully this ends up being another order for 748s.

dbo861 wrote:

Are there many used 747 freighters available right now?

Hopefully this ends up being another order for 748s.

The last freighters Cargolux added were two ex-CX 744Fs. Maybe they are only leased for a few years because they are flying in a hybrid scheme. To me it looks like that they are just an interim lift before they finally decide to add more 748Fs.

dbo861 wrote:

Are there many used 747 freighters available right now?

Hopefully this ends up being another order for 748s.

There are 6 400F’s currently available

jupiter2 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

I could be interpreting this differently, but the actual quote from Cargolux leaves open whether it is 747Fs that may be added, or another type:

Forson said that "depending on circumstances next year," the carrier may add to its fleet of Boeing 747-8 and 747-400 freighters, according to a report in Luxemburger Wort, a leading daily newspaper.

Where in either of the two stories does it mention they are thinking of anything else but used 747 freighters ?

My point is that the quote said Cargolux was looking to add to its fleet of 747 freighters, which is ambiguous. I never said they were looking at other than 747 freighters (as you claim I said) - just that I could read that statement to include aircraft other than 747s.

8f looks so sweet in their scheme. Just the right amount of color for such a large aircraft while not being too eurowhite or overdone.

I imagine a common fleet of 747-8 is the aim but who's to say the 777-F or even A330-F won't be considered ?

Are CargoLux considering adding the 777F? There must be a great deal waiting for CargoLux if they chose the 777F.

Any purchase would be from "the used market because it presents value for the airline".

Well, they are not looking at new aircraft as used aircraft requires less capital in these times of low fuel costs.

JannEejit wrote:

I imagine a common fleet of 747-8 is the aim but who's to say the 777-F or even A330-F won't be considered ?

If they buy from the used market, the 744F would be the most likely candidate for fleet commonality and logistics.

Who could possibly be offloading 748Fs??? Must be 744Fs being considered.

trex8 wrote:

Who could possibly be offloading 748Fs??? Must be 744Fs being considered.

Well British Airways World Cargo sure got rid of there's quickly enough, but I can't think of any currently on the available list. But yes, used 744's may well be the option here.

jbs2886 wrote:

jupiter2 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

I could be interpreting this differently, but the actual quote from Cargolux leaves open whether it is 747Fs that may be added, or another type:

Forson said that "depending on circumstances next year," the carrier may add to its fleet of Boeing 747-8 and 747-400 freighters, according to a report in Luxemburger Wort, a leading daily newspaper.

Where in either of the two stories does it mention they are thinking of anything else but used 747 freighters ?

My point is that the quote said Cargolux was looking to add to its fleet of 747 freighters, which is ambiguous. I never said they were looking at other than 747 freighters (as you claim I said) - just that I could read that statement to include aircraft other than 747s.

The last 3 words of your first sentence say otherwise.

If they add any aircraft, it makes sense they add 747s. Adding another type for a small sub fleet just wouldn't make operational sense, the whole operation is based on the 747. The agreement mentioned in the article with EK increases their flexibility as it is, increases potential destinations, will help fill each others aircraft and may alleviate the need for more aircraft, or if it is a success, may increase the need for more aircraft. Time shall tell.

"Cargolux - Europe's largest cargo carrier - is hiring 60 pilots for its Luxembourg operations."

How many additional Cargolux freighters could 60 pilots cover?

groundbird wrote:

"Cargolux - Europe's largest cargo carrier - is hiring 60 pilots for its Luxembourg operations."

How many additional Cargolux freighters could 60 pilots cover?

60 pilots could also just cover increased flying of the existing fleet.

groundbird wrote:

"Cargolux - Europe's largest cargo carrier - is hiring 60 pilots for its Luxembourg operations."

How many additional Cargolux freighters could 60 pilots cover?

I'd say 4 to 5 only, but maybe some pilots are to replace the ones retiring in the next few years.

Maybe they can get some good second hand B744 to convert into Freighters. I think ex-Jade cargo birds are still parked if some airports.

trex8 wrote:

Who could possibly be offloading 748Fs??? Must be 744Fs being considered.

Maybe they can order new planes, I am not sure how long will it take to get them, but the backlog is not very big,

jupiter2 wrote:

groundbird wrote:

"Cargolux - Europe's largest cargo carrier - is hiring 60 pilots for its Luxembourg operations."

How many additional Cargolux freighters could 60 pilots cover?

60 pilots could also just cover increased flying of the existing fleet.

Or less extreme rosters for their existing flight crew

zkojq wrote:

jupiter2 wrote:

groundbird wrote:

"Cargolux - Europe's largest cargo carrier - is hiring 60 pilots for its Luxembourg operations."

How many additional Cargolux freighters could 60 pilots cover?

60 pilots could also just cover increased flying of the existing fleet.

Or less extreme rosters for their existing flight crew

possibly, but we aren't talking about an airline based in the Middle East.

jupiter2 wrote:

zkojq wrote:

jupiter2 wrote:

60 pilots could also just cover increased flying of the existing fleet.

Or less extreme rosters for their existing flight crew

possibly, but we aren't talking about an airline based in the Middle East.

Cargolux has a reputation for being one of the worst in Europe when it comes to using FTLs as targets.

How long will the current Boeing production last at the current rate and how does this relate to the need for AF1 replacement? Assuming the new presidential transport is to be completed during Trump's second term, is there sufficient backlog to maintain production until this plane is built and funded. Would a modest order of 6-8 747-8f be sufficient to keep production going until the new AF1 assembly starts?

PEK777 wrote:

How long will the current Boeing production last at the current rate and how does this relate to the need for AF1 replacement? Assuming the new presidential transport is to be completed during Trump's second term, is there sufficient backlog to maintain production until this plane is built and funded. Would a modest order of 6-8 747-8f be sufficient to keep production going until the new AF1 assembly starts?

The AF1 replacement is already sorted, the USAF has bought the 2 NTU 747-8I that were destined for Transaero.

This means that the production line of the 747 depends completely on new 747-8F orders. A modest order for 6 747-8Fs would result in 1 year of production at the current rate. The line will be kept open as long as orders come in and/or how long Boeing's financial department wants to keep it open.

Few new 8F would definitely make Boeing happy.
I'm sure the phones are already ringing.

Would 777F bring any additional benefit over the 748F for Cargolux?

Articles talk about USED frames, not new.


Any purchase would be from "the used market because it presents value for the airline," Forson said.

n471wn wrote:

There are 6 400F’s currently available

flee wrote:

If they buy from the used market, the 744F would be the most likely candidate for fleet commonality and logistics.

What 400Fs are available?

mercure1 wrote:

Articles talk about USED frames, not new.


Any purchase would be from "the used market because it presents value for the airline," Forson said.

Looks like the end of the line for the 747. Who knows, Cargolux may buy some 777F down the line.

These will probably be converted 744 pax or 744F.

akelley728 wrote:

n471wn wrote:

There are 6 400F’s currently available

flee wrote:

If they buy from the used market, the 744F would be the most likely candidate for fleet commonality and logistics.

What 400Fs are available?

CI has 3 parked in the desert since 2012. All were delivered @2000/2001.May need a heavy check, probably why those particular ones were parked. But wth cargo revenue up over 20% last year maybe they will be reactivated .

trex8 wrote:

akelley728 wrote:

n471wn wrote:

There are 6 400F’s currently available

flee wrote:

If they buy from the used market, the 744F would be the most likely candidate for fleet commonality and logistics.

What 400Fs are available?

CI has 3 parked in the desert since 2012. All were delivered @2000/2001.May need a heavy check, probably why those particular ones were parked. But wth cargo revenue up over 20% last year maybe they will be reactivated .

What is the cost of a D check in comparison to a new 747-8F or 777F? A recent article had Boeing execs stating the 747 would continue in production and looked to earn larger orders in 2022 timeframe.

mercure1 wrote:

Articles talk about USED frames, not new.


Any purchase would be from "the used market because it presents value for the airline," Forson said.

Maybe they'll buy the Lufthansa 747-8i frames and convert them.

Strato2 wrote:

Maybe they'll buy the Lufthansa 747-8i frames and convert them.

Negative.

1. All of LXs 747s are pure F models with the hinged nose.
2. 747-8i would be converted passenger frames with you guessed it, no hinged nose
3. 747-8i has the extended upper deck, severely limiting the cargo capacity vs the short hump of the 747-8F
4. LH historically gotten the max life out of its 747 fleet. There’s no reason to believe that LH won’t do the same with their -8i fleet.

There are rumors circulating that UPS is exercising the 14 options on the 748 and ordering 14 more. These are just rumors. Realistic scenario, retire MD Fleet earlier. 744 on MD Intl routes like already done on HNL-SYD. Move 76 Asia and Europe to US Domestic displacing A306 routes and for Latin America growth. Start phasing out the older P&W 75 fleet replacing them with the A306 displaced by the 76.

UPS Pilot wrote:

There are rumors circulating that UPS is exercising the 14 options on the 748 and ordering 14 more. These are just rumors. Realistic scenario, retire MD Fleet earlier. 744 on MD Intl routes like already done on HNL-SYD. Move 76 Asia and Europe to US Domestic displacing A306 routes and for Latin America growth. Start phasing out the older P&W 75 fleet replacing them with the A306 displaced by the 76.

Converting 14 options into 14 orders or converting 14 options into firm and ordering 14 more (= ordering 28 in total)? That would be a huge capacity increase, including upscaling other fleets.

Either way, it would mean quite a boost for the 747 program. Perhaps enabling increasing production again

I take it as ordering 14 more 747-8Fs via the usage of the 14 options held.

The rumor is 14 option conversions plus 14 more orders for a total of 42

akelley728 wrote:

1. All of LXs 747s are pure F models with the hinged nose.
2. 747-8i would be converted passenger frames with you guessed it, no hinged nose
3. 747-8i has the extended upper deck, severely limiting the cargo capacity vs the short hump of the 747-8F

Is it impossible to fit a hinged nose to a passenger 747, or is it is possible but not worth the expense?

What difference does having the long upper deck have in respect of converting a passenger 747 to a freighter?

Hinged nose? Yes, just not economical. Some cargo conversions replace all upper fuselage sections to remove the windows.
https://youtu.be/0jyWp3hqdy8
Other conversions simply plug the windows. A service life vs. payload decision WRT the delta in cost. Similarly, the delta in cost to hinge the nose.

747s were planned as "freighter only" (arising from the Juan Trippe / Boeing collaboration), but that plan changed when Boeing killed its SST project. TMK, all 747 frames have the hull strength to support a hinged nose.
https://www.airspacemag.com/how-things- ... p-4578877/

All of the 747 family are under a single Type Certificate, as amended.
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commer ... /A20WE.pdf

Long hump on the 744F means more crew lounge and bunks. TMK, no operators have restored the lounge to a retro "Seattle Orange" theme of the 741, or to the freighter pilot lounge of the original (nka Episode VI) Star Wars movie.

DrPaul wrote:

What difference does having the long upper deck have in respect of converting a passenger 747 to a freighter?

The floor of the upper deck intrudes into the ceiling of the lower deck reducing the available height.. Thats why even on a factory built freighters, pallets loaded through the front hinged nose door have to be lower in height (8 ft maximum height) than ones through the side door (10 ft). Extended deck therefore reduces number of 10 ft high pallets you can have on the main deck.

CX747 wrote:

What is the cost of a D check in comparison to a new 747-8F or 777F? A recent article had Boeing execs stating the 747 would continue in production and looked to earn larger orders in 2022 timeframe.

A D check is somewhat variable but probably starts at several million.
10 year old prices . viewtopic.php?t=746599

Lease payments on a new 748F or 77F are easily over a million a month.

There is no 748 pax to F conversion program so one would have to be designed and certified. Because of the extremely limited 748i feedstock available a conversion will never happen, it just isn’t cost effective. The 744pax to F conversions were disappointing enough.

dtw9 wrote:

The rumor is 14 option conversions plus 14 more orders for a total of 42

I'd love to see it occur. Where would they use all of these 747s?

UPS Pilot wrote:

Start phasing out the older P&W 75 fleet replacing them with the A306 displaced by the 76.

There really isn't a reason to phase the PW 757s out, they're getting the upgraded cockpit and ACARS, FMCs like the rest of the fleet. Very low time as a whole. I'd expect to see them here a long time pending some expensive aging aircraft requirement or the like.

DrPaul wrote:

akelley728 wrote:

1. All of LXs 747s are pure F models with the hinged nose.
2. 747-8i would be converted passenger frames with you guessed it, no hinged nose
3. 747-8i has the extended upper deck, severely limiting the cargo capacity vs the short hump of the 747-8F

Is it impossible to fit a hinged nose to a passenger 747, or is it is possible but not worth the expense?

What difference does having the long upper deck have in respect of converting a passenger 747 to a freighter?

Only a few early 747-100's were built to allow a nose cargo door to be retrofitted. The necessary hardware was deleted from later passenger 747's to save weight. Also the rationale that 747's would need the nose cargo doors to be converted to freighters after SST's came online was already obsolete in 1971 when Congress cancelled the American SST.

The development of combi freighter versions of the 747 forced Boeing to develop a side cargo door. One big advantage of the SCD was that they would allow 10 foot high containers that could allow 747F's carry more cargo than if loaded solely through the nose door. Also they could be loaded and unloaded faster through the SCD's. The very few early 747F's built with only nose doors were all retrofitted with SCD' s.

The longer upper decks of the 744 and the 748 have more structural dead weight for cargo applications. That means less cargo weight can be carried with no benefit to the operator compared to the factory built freighter. The availability of spare parts from parted out passenger 747's will keep 747F's flying for a long time.

dtw9 wrote:

The rumor is 14 option conversions plus 14 more orders for a total of 42

I would love that to happen.
If true then cargo growth predictions must be quite promising.

trex8 wrote:

akelley728 wrote:

n471wn wrote:

There are 6 400F’s currently available

flee wrote:

If they buy from the used market, the 744F would be the most likely candidate for fleet commonality and logistics.

What 400Fs are available?

CI has 3 parked in the desert since 2012. All were delivered @2000/2001.May need a heavy check, probably why those particular ones were parked. But wth cargo revenue up over 20% last year maybe they will be reactivated .

Thai Airways has 2 B744 BCF parked and are very eager to sell them.

If they do order new 747 freighters, then this means the 747 is saved from being phased out of production.