What’s next for Silver Airways? - discussion thread

msycajun · Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:39 pm

Silver Airways has been quiet lately since announcing its order for 20 ATR-42-600s. In a recent Facebook promotion it hinted at a forthcoming announcement of new Caribbean and Southeast US routes. It also asked which of the following routes would one be most likely to fly in the future:

TPA-CHS/GSP, MCO-CHS/GSP/HSV/BKG, and JAX-ORF/MSY

Has anyone heard when such an announcement might be made?

How has the fleet transition/pilot training been going?

Any ideas as to other potential routes?

As for MSY, there are several routes in the 300-600 mile range that I think would do well for them:
JAX and CHS at about 50 PDEW
OKC, TUL at about 40
GSP, RSW, CRP, and SDF between 25-40 pdew
Plus former GLO routes LIT, SHV, and MEM, which mostly compete against driving

FLYKTPA · Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:06 pm

I’ve heard about them potentially doing a Asheville-Tampa flight. If this is true I assume they would add Asheville- MCO as well.

AWACSooner · Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:17 pm

msycajun wrote:
OKC, TUL at about 40

Waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time/distance for anyone to bear in a prop. Still, I wish we could get someone to start OKC-MCO.

aaflyer222 · Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:23 pm

when will the first atr arrive? The first are scheduled to arrive before the end of year.

BTVB6Flyer · Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:41 pm

From TPA, could maybe open door for more Caribbean, maybe like Jamaica, Cancun or Turks and Caicos.

Domestically, from TPA, I think SAV, CHS, ASH and GSP would do best.

FlightLevel360 · Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:59 pm

Hope they restart service to GNV. I work in GNV during the summer and it'll be great to see some other options besides DL and AA.

WaywardMemphian · Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:10 pm

msycajun wrote:
Silver Airways has been quiet lately since announcing its order for 20 ATR-42-600s. In a recent Facebook promotion it hinted at a forthcoming announcement of new Caribbean and Southeast US routes. It also asked which of the following routes would one be most likely to fly in the future:

TPA-CHS/GSP, MCO-CHS/GSP/HSV/BKG, and JAX-ORF/MSY

Has anyone heard when such an announcement might be made?

How has the fleet transition/pilot training been going?

Any ideas as to other potential routes?

As for MSY, there are several routes in the 300-600 mile range that I think would do well for them:
JAX and CHS at about 50 PDEW
OKC, TUL at about 40
GSP, RSW, CRP, and SDF between 25-40 pdew
Plus former GLO routes LIT, SHV, and MEM, which mostly compete against driving

They would be welcome at XNA especially MSY, BKG/Orlando would fill the gap left after Southwest killed the Sat only flight Air Tran was rather successful on with a 717. But Allegiant has Springfield and NWA on that route. XNA to VPS could work seasonally.

FLYKTPA · Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:18 pm

BTVB6Flyer wrote:
From TPA, could maybe open door for more Caribbean, maybe like Jamaica, Cancun or Turks and Caicos.

Domestically, from TPA, I think SAV, CHS, ASH and GSP would do best.

Could Silver’s new aircraft actually fly TPA-MBJ? That would be awesome.

MO11 · Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:25 pm

msycajun wrote:
Silver Airways has been quiet lately since announcing its order for 20 ATR-42-600s. In a recent Facebook promotion it hinted at a forthcoming announcement of new Caribbean and Southeast US routes.

Actually, it was a letter of intent, not a firm order. When FedEx announced its order, it was noted that this was the first order for ATR 42-600s by a US carrier.

rajincajun01 · Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:39 pm

Would be awesome if they would open an RDU base. Flights to MYR, CHS, RIC and SDF would be good options. Can even use them as through flights to Florida focus cities (ex. RDU-CHS-JAX and RDU-MYR-FLL).

braniff2hav · Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:48 pm

MSY to SHV, LIT, JAX, CHS would be great candidates.

msycajun · Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:51 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
msycajun wrote:
OKC, TUL at about 40

Waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time/distance for anyone to bear in a prop. Still, I wish we could get someone to start OKC-MCO.

To be clear I was proposing MSY-OKC/TUL. I think the point of the ATRs is to open up longer routes with more O&D and these would fit the bill, just depends on how far west they are looking to go. MSY-OKC at 567 miles is about the same as JAX-MSY/ORF and MCO-HSV and much shorter than BKG-MCO, all routes that they at least mentioned as possibilities. These are the types of routes that they will need to look at in order to make money with 46 seat new planes - routes in the 1-2 hour range with no competition and healthy O&D. Shorter routes compete with driving and longer ones compete with jet hubs.

Polot · Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:07 am

Did Silver ever firm their ATR order?

BTVB6Flyer · Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:16 am

FLYKTPA wrote:
BTVB6Flyer wrote:
From TPA, could maybe open door for more Caribbean, maybe like Jamaica, Cancun or Turks and Caicos.

Domestically, from TPA, I think SAV, CHS, ASH and GSP would do best.

Could Silver’s new aircraft actually fly TPA-MBJ? That would be awesome.

I plugged in the ATR-600 range on Great Circle Mapper and it includes Jamaica.

It's right on the edge of the range capabilities it looks like though.

FLYKTPA · Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:25 am

BTVB6Flyer wrote:
FLYKTPA wrote:
BTVB6Flyer wrote:
From TPA, could maybe open door for more Caribbean, maybe like Jamaica, Cancun or Turks and Caicos.

Domestically, from TPA, I think SAV, CHS, ASH and GSP would do best.

Could Silver’s new aircraft actually fly TPA-MBJ? That would be awesome.

I plugged in the ATR-600 range on Great Circle Mapper and it includes Jamaica.

It's right on the edge of the range capabilities it looks like though.

Very interesting. I could potentially see Silver doing well with daily TPA-MBJ & CUN service.

F27500 · Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:28 am

I love how now everyone on here has a hard on for Silver ... not long ago they were an unsafe scab airline to be avoided at all costs.

And think about some of these routes you're gushing over ....Branson MO to Orlando .. and TPA-Jamaica in an ATR42 ?? Come on, now people .. calm down a little.

ATLgaUSA · Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:51 am

I’d expect MSY-BHM, MSY-JAX, and JAX-BHM would be good candidates.

jetmatt777 · Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:56 am

AWACSooner wrote:
msycajun wrote:
OKC, TUL at about 40

Waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time/distance for anyone to bear in a prop. Still, I wish we could get someone to start OKC-MCO.

Frontier started OKC-MCO....

AWACSooner · Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:07 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
msycajun wrote:
OKC, TUL at about 40

Waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time/distance for anyone to bear in a prop. Still, I wish we could get someone to start OKC-MCO.

Frontier started OKC-MCO....

Sorry...meant daily service.

CAFlyer · Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:43 am

Unmentioned here is how slow the ATR-42-600 is, cruising at about 345 mph, much slower than a Q400 at 415 mph or most jets of around 500 mph. Segments such as MSY-CHS clocking in a 613 statute miles seem implausible because of 2 1/2 hour segment times which yields very poor utilization of the aircraft, and with many of the suggestions listed above, you start overflying ATL which given its nine connections daily over ATL and strong DL brand loyalty in the Southeast would make it very tough on say two nonstop prop flights a day. Some of the worst flights that Expressjet had back in 2008 were routes such as TUL-AUS and OKC-SAT which overflew DFW and its dozen AA connections daily. Load factors on those were around 30% with nonstop E145 jet flights. Routes such as TPA-CHS which is 370 miles seem better suited to the slow cruise speed of this plane. Routes such as TPA-MBJ being far too long at over 700 miles, also would likely entail EOW (extended overwater) regs such as needing a raft which may or may not be a part of the equipment list in Silver specs.

DiamondFlyer · Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:46 am

Simply having enough pilots left to staff 20 ATR42 at the end of the process is going to be a feat in and of itself. To even think about any substantial growth, would be reckless at this point.

msycajun · Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:00 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Simply having enough pilots left to staff 20 ATR42 at the end of the process is going to be a feat in and of itself. To even think about any substantial growth, would be reckless at this point.

Presumably there will be some slack after the Cuba exit. I would expect several of the shorter Florida routes will have frequency reductions or be eliminated entirely in order to start new routes. They will need to shift capacity to markets that can fill more seats.

crownvic · Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:49 am

Rumors are flying around, the ATR order is off. The source is folks at the airline. Not sure if this is official though.

Northwest1988 · Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:41 am

I would love to see them fly to GSP! Bring them on!

Flyingstump · Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:57 am

crownvic wrote:
Rumors are flying around, the ATR order is off. The source is folks at the airline. Not sure if this is official though.

That would be a bummer...unless they swapped those out for a Q400 order or, more realistically, a 50-70 seat regional jet order.

Assuming Silver does stick with the ATRs, I think they have a great opportunity to carve an even bigger niche in Florida. Currently, they seem to make their bread and butter from 2 types of routes: point-to-point inttra-state (Florida) routes for business travelers and non stop routes for leisure travelers heading to the Bahamas and Key West. These routes are bolstered by interline agreements with the US3, Jetblue, and Alaska, and Silver faces virtually no competition and charges a premium price for their service.
With longer range and more seats, I could see Silver focusing on p2p intra-region (the Southeast) routes and expanding their leisure focus to the Caribbean as well as Orlando and the Panhandle (The South, north of Florida, loves the panhandle. Destin, Valdosta, Panama City, Pensacola, etc.). I know when they first announced their aircraft order and plans to expand, they mentioned negotiations with Seaborne Airlines which is based in Puerto Rico.

The max range with full payload of an ATR42-600 is 716nm, and although it is unlikely they will push the boundaries of ATR flight, a quick look a city like Jacksonville reveals a good amount of p2p business routes within the Southeast that are not served: CHS, MOB, MGM, BHM, GSP, RDU, and GSO just to name a few. From FLL, they could reach the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Turks and Caicos, and even the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico. Although not all of these are likely, there are a good amount of options.

santi319 · Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:08 am

Flyingstump wrote:
The max range with full payload of an ATR42-600 is 716nm, and although it is unlikely they will push the boundaries of ATR flight, a quick look a city like Jacksonville reveals a good amount of p2p business routes within the Southeast that are not served: CHS, MOB, MGM, BHM, GSP, RDU, and GSO just to name a few. From FLL, they could reach the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Turks and Caicos, and even the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico. Although not all of these are likely, there are a good amount of options.

This would be perfect to fly FLL-CZM which is awful underserved and routes like FLL-MID or FLL-CAP

flyguy84 · Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:12 am

Flyingstump wrote:
crownvic wrote:
Rumors are flying around, the ATR order is off. The source is folks at the airline. Not sure if this is official though.

That would be a bummer...unless they swapped those out for a Q400 order or, more realistically, a 50-70 seat regional jet order.

Assuming Silver does stick with the ATRs, I think they have a great opportunity to carve an even bigger niche in Florida. Currently, they seem to make their bread and butter from 2 types of routes: point-to-point inttra-state (Florida) routes for business travelers and non stop routes for leisure travelers heading to the Bahamas and Key West. These routes are bolstered by interline agreements with the US3, Jetblue, and Alaska, and Silver faces virtually no competition and charges a premium price for their service.
With longer range and more seats, I could see Silver focusing on p2p intra-region (the Southeast) routes and expanding their leisure focus to the Caribbean as well as Orlando and the Panhandle (The South, north of Florida, loves the panhandle. Destin, Valdosta, Panama City, Pensacola, etc.). I know when they first announced their aircraft order and plans to expand, they mentioned negotiations with Seaborne Airlines which is based in Puerto Rico.

The max range with full payload of an ATR42-600 is 716nm, and although it is unlikely they will push the boundaries of ATR flight, a quick look a city like Jacksonville reveals a good amount of p2p business routes within the Southeast that are not served: CHS, MOB, MGM, BHM, GSP, RDU, and GSO just to name a few. From FLL, they could reach the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Turks and Caicos, and even the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico. Although not all of these are likely, there are a good amount of options.

LOL.. they don't have the price/cost structure to economically fly around regional jets. They need to keep their costs as low as possible in order for them to say in business.

Northwest1988 · Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:18 am

What about Hilton Head Island HXD? American Eagle is the only operator there. The Dash 8s are supposed to be completely retired next year and unless the runway is extended to accommodate regional jets, they will be without service. Could silver come in and find a way to sustain airline service to the island?

crownvic · Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:45 am

This thread is just one of many bringing a problem to the table for many airlines and cities that do not qualify for larger equipment. The Dash 8 100/200 and SAABs flying today, are all reaching the end of their useful lives and there really is not a single western design in the 30-50 seat class around to replace it. While used 50 seat jets do have higher operating costs, their acquisition costs are very low right now. However, that would be a band aid only as these a/c are also ageing.

What does this mean? A lot cities over the next few year period are going to lose air service if a replacement aircraft does not appear. The chances of that happening are pretty much nil right now. Embraer seems to be the only one in talks to develop a fresh new 50 seat class turboprop.

Back in the 70s/80s, most cities were accessible with so many aircraft types being handed down from the larger airlines like CV-440/580, Martins, F-27/FH227, DC-3 and newer Dash 7 types. As the Dash 8s, SAABs and Dorniers entered the market along with the new 50 seat RJs/ERJs, there were replacements for the older types. Now there is nothing.

rbavfan · Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:03 am

BTVB6Flyer wrote:
FLYKTPA wrote:
BTVB6Flyer wrote:
From TPA, could maybe open door for more Caribbean, maybe like Jamaica, Cancun or Turks and Caicos.

Domestically, from TPA, I think SAV, CHS, ASH and GSP would do best.

Could Silver’s new aircraft actually fly TPA-MBJ? That would be awesome.

I plugged in the ATR-600 range on Great Circle Mapper and it includes Jamaica.

It's right on the edge of the range capabilities it looks like though.

Remember the range listed for ATR42-600 & ATR42-600 is still air, not with any headwinds. If still air is jet in range it's a no go as flying overwater adds additional fuel for diversion than overland flights as well.

NYRangers16 · Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:46 pm

I was told last summer by employees at MCO that silver would be purchasing the CRJ-200 to replace the SAABs. If this was false or fell through then please let me know and I'll insert foot into mouth.

bluefltspecial · Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:29 pm

NYRangers16 wrote:
I was told last summer by employees at MCO that silver would be purchasing the CRJ-200 to replace the SAABs. If this was false or fell through then please let me know and I'll insert foot into mouth.

The CASM on a CRJ-200 vs a SF34 is hugely different, with Silver's current network, it is not a fit. If they were looking into longer range markets maybe, but it would make more sense to operate a CR7 with a lower CASM with they were looking into regional jet ops. There are plenty of CRJs and CR7s on the open market available for cheap, but I just don't see it happening.

That being said, I've learned never to say never in the airline industry.

msycajun · Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:55 pm

Now I am not a Silver insider and plans could certainly change, but a few points:
They have made a big deal of the ATR transition - there is a prominently featured button on their website that highlights it. If the order were canceled I doubt they would do this

They have stated intentions to broaden the network throughout the Southeast and Caribbean, which is necessary because of the increased capacity of the ATRs - they need longer and larger routes.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if the ATRs had to be delayed with the pilot market being what it is, but the Saabs won't last forever and with plans for high-speed intra-Florida rail service, the network as it is now won't be sustainable long-term.

MO11 · Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:15 pm

msycajun wrote:
Now I am not a Silver insider and plans could certainly change, but a few points:
They have made a big deal of the ATR transition - there is a prominently featured button on their website that highlights it. If the order were canceled I doubt they would do this.

But if you go to ATR website, there is no knowledge of Silver Airways.

deltadudejg · Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:15 pm

I've always been a fan of Silver since their transition from Gulfstream International, which I loved too. I'm hoping that this rumor mentioned above about not getting the ATRs isn't true. There seems to be gaps in the aircraft for smaller aircraft but the industry made it that way. I'm curious if they looked at the new Cessna 408 SkyCourier, it may not be the fastest or prettiest but I feel it would be a decent fit for some routes around Florida/Upper Caribbean

Freshside3 · Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:28 am

Andros Bahamas used to be served by Silver, but it was at an early morning slot at FLL where nothing connected to it. And it was only on Saturdays. Perhaps Silver should revisit serving ASD, providing that it's at a reasonable time slot.

F9Animal · Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:53 am

What's next for Silver? My hopes, are success! I am a little nervous with the change of fleet, as it haunts me still over Island Air. However, Silver seems much more organized and steady in comparison. I just know I want to watch this little gem survive and beat the odds. I also need to get my butt out and fly on their 340 before they vanish.

rajincajun01 · Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:33 pm

It was an interesting attempt by Silver to put in for DEN EAS routes that ultimately went to SkyWest. They may be looking to branch out from Florida/Bahamas again.

DiamondFlyer · Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:39 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
Andros Bahamas used to be served by Silver, but it was at an early morning slot at FLL where nothing connected to it. And it was only on Saturdays. Perhaps Silver should revisit serving ASD, providing that it's at a reasonable time slot.

FLL isn't slot controlled, it could be flown at any time they wanted to fly it.

xdlx · Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:57 pm

If they are banking on ATR Fleet the range of the mission can not be greater than 500nm for it to have the inherent efficiencies. They have to fragment the FL services they offer from FLL and duplicate the concept in MCO TPA JAX. They can effectively service the Bahamas from four Florida Cities.

glfblz59 · Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:59 pm

Talk about "long" turbo-prop" routes. How about PORTER'S Toronto City to Myrtle Beach? That has too be a real "tooth-jerker"
as far as comfort and convenience? I guess the Canadians are hardier people than the most of us "softies" in the states? And,
those Canucks want OUT of that snowy weather to go play golf.

Wingtips56 · Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:28 am

glfblz59 wrote:
Talk about "long" turbo-prop" routes. How about PORTER'S Toronto City to Myrtle Beach? That has too be a real "tooth-jerker"
as far as comfort and convenience? I guess the Canadians are hardier people than the most of us "softies" in the states? And,
those Canucks want OUT of that snowy weather to go play golf.

Nonsense. I've flown LAX-MFR on QX Q400s at about the same flight length, and it's been just fine. It has always felt a bit too long as I've connected from either Europe or Southeast Asia, and the last drag home is always too long. But on it's own, it's not bad, and the Dash 8s give a very smooth ride for any prop. (Maybe if PT gave you free cups of craft beers or cheap wine like QX would make the flight better?) My first prop ride was on a UA DC-6, and that did rattle the teeth, but not the Q400 or ATR.

ridgid727 · Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:24 am

Wingtips56 wrote:
glfblz59 wrote:
Talk about "long" turbo-prop" routes. How about PORTER'S Toronto City to Myrtle Beach? That has too be a real "tooth-jerker"
as far as comfort and convenience? I guess the Canadians are hardier people than the most of us "softies" in the states? And,
those Canucks want OUT of that snowy weather to go play golf.

Nonsense. I've flown LAX-MFR on QX Q400s at about the same flight length, and it's been just fine. It has always felt a bit too long as I've connected from either Europe or Southeast Asia, and the last drag home is always too long. But on it's own, it's not bad, and the Dash 8s give a very smooth ride for any prop. (Maybe if PT gave you free cups of craft beers or cheap wine like QX would make the flight better?) My first prop ride was on a UA DC-6, and that did rattle the teeth, but not the Q400 or ATR.

OO used to have a SNA=SLC on an EMB120. Was on it several times. It was long but not teeth shattering.

Northwest1988 · Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:49 am

Porter flies seasonal Toronto- Melbourne, FL. That’s got to be one of the longest!

93Sierra · Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:32 pm

So they obvisouly didn't arrive in 4th quarter 2017. When will the first ATR arrive now?

beefstew25 · Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:10 am

Northwest1988 wrote:
Porter flies seasonal Toronto- Melbourne, FL. That’s got to be one of the longest!

Flies right over the condo. Long ass flight.

msycajun · Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:12 am

93Sierra wrote:
So they obvisouly didn't arrive in 4th quarter 2017. When will the first ATR arrive now?

The latest unofficial word I heard was proving runs in February and March with entry into service presumably shortly after that.

msycajun · Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:47 am

http://www.silverairways.com/discover-silver/sales/clue-41

Silver is proud to announce Huntsville, Alabama as our first new destination using our brand new ATR-600 fleet! Starting May 23, Silver offers daily nonstop service between Orlando and Huntsville

H3w1tt · Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:29 am

What was the reason for them withdrawing service from IAD? Was it just not profitable?

SyracuseAvGeek · Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:01 am

H3w1tt wrote:
What was the reason for them withdrawing service from IAD? Was it just not profitable?

The cities thy served from IAD were EAS cities, and the DOT picked another airline for service.

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