Airliners.net

BoeingGuy wrote:

Interesting, I haven’t yet seen one post speculating that this deal may also result in WS starting SEA and PDX. This has been expected for awhile but I would think a JV with DL makes it more likely.

There has been speculation here in YYC about this potentially resulting in WR or WS taking over or supplementing the existing CP or OO service to SEA. DL seems relatively committed to YYC-SEA and YEG-SEA.

Running flights, especially flights that are close to 4 hours long each way, into a hub where there's virtually no local traffic isn't a strategy that is likely to result in profitability.

Once you take Boston, NY and Washington out of the equation there's not much in the US northeast that is viable from Western Canada, (and Chicago is a back haul).

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

jimbo737 wrote:

There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.

Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.

The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.

Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.

I completely agree with this. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with DTW on here but I don’t see it in the future for WS should they fly into DL cities.

jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

klm617 wrote:

Acey wrote:

tphuang wrote:

The point was that this doesn't help consumers. We want more competition and low prices. Yyz lga had seriously high fares before porter entered the market.

Being able to fly YYC-ATL-xxx helps me, and I'm a consumer. I'm not sure you get to tell me what's beneficial to my travel plans.

But DTW-YYC-xxx would help you more.

Who would want to connect in DTW? ATL is the superior hub, more destinations and flights. I'd argue MSP is a very close 2nd.

ACDC8 wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

What Atlanta gives is Latin and South America but I suspect that there is little demand for those kinds of connections from YYC. The biggest draw for people from Calagary outside of Canada would be vacation destinations Like Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico which Westjet has pretty well covered itself so hence Atlanta has no real added value since most of the large business centers in the USA would require back tracking if they connect over ATL which Detroit would allow them to connect the access to the entire east coast from YYC with one stop.

klm617 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

What Atlanta gives is Latin and South America but I suspect that there is little demand for those kinds of connections from YYC. The biggest draw for people from Calagary outside of Canada would be vacation destinations Like Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico which Westjet has pretty well covered itself so hence Atlanta has no real added value since most of the large business centers in the USA would require back tracking if they connect over ATL which Detroit would allow them to connect the access to the entire east coast from YYC with one stop.

The thing is, with 2x daily YYC-MEX between WS and AM, plus with AA/UA via Texas, that covers Latin/South America very well already. I still think YYC-ATL will happen (on WS) as it will soon be a hub-to-hub route.

On a completely separate note, I wonder whether WS/DL will now look at returning to some former legacy NW transborder routes, like YQR, YQT or YXU with a daily Q400? I wonder if WS will look at YOW/YQB/YQM/YYT-BOS on Encore as DL have stated their intentions of growing BOS to be the SEA of the east coast? I hear they'll be getting 5 more gates at BOS soon to grow.

klm617 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

What Atlanta gives is Latin and South America but I suspect that there is little demand for those kinds of connections from YYC. The biggest draw for people from Calagary outside of Canada would be vacation destinations Like Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico which Westjet has pretty well covered itself so hence Atlanta has no real added value since most of the large business centers in the USA would require back tracking if they connect over ATL which Detroit would allow them to connect the access to the entire east coast from YYC with one stop.

That’s pretty much why I was asking. Unless you’re heading south, ATL would be a poor choice to connect from Canada

CFM565A1 wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.

Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.

The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.

Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.

I completely agree with this. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with DTW on here but I don’t see it in the future for WS should they fly into DL cities.

I actually majorly disagree with y’all. Before we start skewing PDEW and say that it’s only 6 between DTW-YYC, the Connection possibilities for the south and east coast are bounds better than MSP, I really think WS will stretch doing YYC-DTW and a seasonal YVR, that’s it for now.

flymco753 wrote:

CFM565A1 wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.

Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.

The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.

Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.

I completely agree with this. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with DTW on here but I don’t see it in the future for WS should they fly into DL cities.

I actually majorly disagree with y’all. Before we start skewing PDEW and say that it’s only 6 between DTW-YYC, the Connection possibilities for the south and east coast are bounds better than MSP, I really think WS will stretch doing YYC-DTW and a seasonal YVR, that’s it for now.

Well until I actually see the route I won’t believe it. I know the Calgary market well (I live in it). I also know that you have a thing for DTW I’ve seen it other threads which is fine because we all have a certain place we hope does well. I do not think they will shoot themselves in the foot for their Windsor flights nor do I they want to risk reducing YYZ travel that would be mostly on their own plane. Keep in mind their MGMT wants to continue to grow Encore and if you start having a ton of connections through DTW would kill Encore’s east coast US ops out of YYZ to Eastern US cities. Further to that, I see actually getting more access to places like ATL and JFK where they can really give AC some competition on those routes.

CFM565A1 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

CFM565A1 wrote:

I completely agree with this. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with DTW on here but I don’t see it in the future for WS should they fly into DL cities.

I actually majorly disagree with y’all. Before we start skewing PDEW and say that it’s only 6 between DTW-YYC, the Connection possibilities for the south and east coast are bounds better than MSP, I really think WS will stretch doing YYC-DTW and a seasonal YVR, that’s it for now.

Well until I actually see the route I won’t believe it. I know the Calgary market well (I live in it). I also know that you have a thing for DTW I’ve seen it other threads which is fine because we all have a certain place we hope does well. I do not think they will shoot themselves in the foot for their Windsor flights nor do I they want to risk reducing YYZ travel that would be mostly on their own plane. Keep in mind their MGMT wants to continue to grow Encore and if you start having a ton of connections through DTW would kill Encore’s east coast US ops out of YYZ to Eastern US cities. Further to that, I see actually getting more access to places like ATL and JFK where they can really give AC some competition on those routes.

Right now Windsor supports Visiting friends and relatives (VFR) market. I could see Windsor moving to Swoop if anything.

cumulushumilis wrote:

CFM565A1 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

I actually majorly disagree with y’all. Before we start skewing PDEW and say that it’s only 6 between DTW-YYC, the Connection possibilities for the south and east coast are bounds better than MSP, I really think WS will stretch doing YYC-DTW and a seasonal YVR, that’s it for now.

Well until I actually see the route I won’t believe it. I know the Calgary market well (I live in it). I also know that you have a thing for DTW I’ve seen it other threads which is fine because we all have a certain place we hope does well. I do not think they will shoot themselves in the foot for their Windsor flights nor do I they want to risk reducing YYZ travel that would be mostly on their own plane. Keep in mind their MGMT wants to continue to grow Encore and if you start having a ton of connections through DTW would kill Encore’s east coast US ops out of YYZ to Eastern US cities. Further to that, I see actually getting more access to places like ATL and JFK where they can really give AC some competition on those routes.

Right now Windsor supports Visiting friends and relatives (VFR) market. I could see Windsor moving to Swoop if anything.

Yes you are correct and I think it’s a perfect Swoop dest. I’m just kind of going off of what Jimbo737 said. I will be the first on here to eat crow if they do start YYC-DTW.

klm617 wrote:

Good now at least maybe Westjet will add Detroit flights.

Oh good god. Just stop it already, will you...

Detroit this, Detroit that... newsflash, DTW isn't gonna become the next JFK or LAX. Suck it up.

FA9295 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Good now at least maybe Westjet will add Detroit flights.

Oh good god. Just stop it already, will you...

ACDC8 wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...

FA9295 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...

Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..

FA9295 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Good now at least maybe Westjet will add Detroit flights.

Oh good god. Just stop it already, will you...

Detroit this, Detroit that... newsflash, DTW isn't gonna become the next JFK or LAX. Suck it up.

When we stop talking about ATL this and ATL that.

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...

Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..

Hence why DL flies to YYC from MSP.

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...

Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..

But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...

Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..

But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.

Please all those places you mentioned on a good day probably generate 20 O/D a day. WS doesn't serve BDL,PVD,PHL,PIT,SYR,ALB,EWR and the like so hence DTW is a much better add.

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:

But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.

The SA market was already brought up, as was WS partnership with AM that pretty much serves this from the West Coast through MEX. And most of the sun destinations in Florida and the Caribbean are already served by WS on their own.

No doubt ATL is a massive hub for DL, but ATL has people coming in from the Western US where ATL is a more convenient stop then it is from Canada. SLC would be the most ideal transfer hub from Western Canada IMHO to points in the US as it wouldn't really matter which direction in the US you were travelling to.

For what its worth, I can't see DTW working very well either given its close proximity to the border for eastern flights, might as well just transfer through EWR (then again, it seems to work for AS between YVR/SEA). But for YYC/YEG/YVR etc, I'd be happier with SLC.

Just my .02 cents worth.

ahj2000 wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

raylee67 wrote:

Does that mean AA is losing WestJet? What about WestJet's relationship to other OW's partners such as BA and QF?

The AA-WS relationship was recently trimmed back, likely in anticipation of this DL deal.

yikes. Wonder what AA will do (or more likely,won’t) do in Canada now.

Yea most likely won't do. ORD would be a nice Gateway hub to Canada or PHL. Just doesn't seem to be the US demand for it.

ACDC8 wrote:

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:

But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.

The SA market was already brought up, as was WS partnership with AM that pretty much serves this from the West Coast through MEX. And most of the sun destinations in Florida and the Caribbean are already served by WS on their own.

No doubt ATL is a massive hub for DL, but ATL has people coming in from the Western US where ATL is a more convenient stop then it is from Canada. SLC would be the most ideal transfer hub from Western Canada IMHO to points in the US as it wouldn't really matter which direction in the US you were travelling to.

For what its worth, I can't see DTW working very well either given its close proximity to the border for eastern flights, might as well just transfer through EWR (then again, it seems to work for AS between YVR/SEA). But for YYC/YEG/YVR etc, I'd be happier with SLC.

Just my .02 cents worth.

I don't see much changing in terms of new routes except maybe the addition of ATL from the west. DL already has established routes to MSP/SLC/SEA. If anything the A/C gauge, schedule and frequency will be upgraded to existing city pairs to support increased network flow and connectivity (align schedules). DL in the 90s used to fly 727s and 757s into the Alberta market from SLC. Now they have a greater emphasis on MSP and SEA because of the international destinations. SLC does not have a lot of overseas flights and this JV is about much more than US connectivity.


Just noticed they have 717s flying into YYC from MSP some days this winter

klakzky123 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...

Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..

Hence why DL flies to YYC from MSP.

True, it may not be very "convenient" per se, but since ATL offers most of its routes from its largest base, they'll still have more options...

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...

Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..

Becuase they’ll go through YYZ on Encore when they continue to add cities like those.

Everyone keeps asking about AA and their response, I can’t see many options for them. At very best, they double down to one of their hubs, let’s just say ORD for hypothetical sake. That leaves pax with the option of connecting through an AA hub, or connecting at YYZ on WS or AC depending on their preference. Where is the advantage for AA?

whywhyzee wrote:

Everyone keeps asking about AA and their response, I can’t see many options for them. At very best, they double down to one of their hubs, let’s just say ORD for hypothetical sake. That leaves pax with the option of connecting through an AA hub, or connecting at YYZ on WS or AC depending on their preference. Where is the advantage for AA?

The codeshare with AA is done in mid Jan!

klm617 wrote:

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..

But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.

Please all those places you mentioned on a good day probably generate 20 O/D a day. WS doesn't serve BDL,PVD,PHL,PIT,SYR,ALB,EWR and the like so hence DTW is a much better add.

You would be surprised. WS is doing YYC-BNA 2-3 x / week, and occasionally throwing -800s on the route due to high loads. If they can fill a 737 twice per week YYC-BNA, I'm confident they have the drawing power in Calgary to get enough passengers to justify a daily YYC-ATL. And yes, I do realize that BNA is the kind of market that draws people, kind of like a LAS, whereas ATL is all about connections. I just believe in the synergies of the JV and that they will pull enough passengers with connections to fill a 737 on the route.

Look at how the AC/UA partnership has evolved, where AC has multiple daily flights to all the UA hubs from their Canadian hubs, even ones that on the surface don't necessarily make sense. It is all about the connections they enable. I don't think the question is "Will the WS serve YYC ATL or YYC DTW" - I think the JV will enable both, on the right metal. And mark my words - these carriers have enough airplanes to get the right one for the job on it.. Will be interesting what they deem the best fit, be it a WS 737, a Delta narrowbody (717, 737, Airbus 320 series), something from a Delta Connection carrier, or an Encore Q400. Offhand - how do CASMs compare between WS and DL. I would think YYC ATL would be a 737 a day to start, but YYC DTW could easily be a Delta Connection E175 multiple times per day for enhanced NE connections. The passengers exist, as AC's US route network demonstrates. This will just give them another, possibly more direct, and maybe cheaper way to get to where they need to go. And were I from Western Canada, I'd rather connect through MSP or DTW, do pre-clearance in YYC vs YYZ, plus not be stuck on an Air Canada Express B1900s or DHC-8s that seem to do a lot of the NE destinations.

Interestingly, of the flights between the WS and DL hubs / focus cities, I can't think of any current overlap between the two.

WS does YYZ LGA, YYZ/YUL/YHZ BOS (WS Encore), YYZ LAX, YYC JFK and YYC/YEG/YVR LAX, along with seasonal service between YWG / YQR and LAX.

DL does ATL YYZ, DTW YYZ, MSP YYZ, MSP YYC, SLC YYC, SLC YVR, SEA YYC, SEA YVR, ATL YUL, I think a season JFK & ATL to YVR plus service to several secondary Canadian cities.

Also - as Jimbo737 likes to occasionally mention - DL is quite aware of how AC's US expansion is poaching passengers for international connections, mainly thru YYZ but occasionally through YUL, YYC and YVR. With WS 787s showing up in the next year or so, will be curious if the JV starts to route low-yielding traffic on WS to Europe, to compete with AC Rouge and other lower cost carriers. WS already has been pulling US connections for some of their European flights (eg FLL YYZ DUB) - imagine adding Delta's pull to the equation.

Looking forward to watching this unfold.

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...

Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..

For eastern North American destinations right now you either use YYZ with WS or MSP with DL. Surely together this would be enough to cover most if not all of the realistic markets that no new routes need to be built. Then you have to consider the possible and probable further growth of Encore. Why would the hand all their business off to DL metal when they can open routes with their own. Furthermore, neither of the two existing options are really anymore out of the way than DTW, not significantly anyway. Sounds like that would be shooting themselves in the foot to me.

The thing with ATL is it serves places that going through YYZ, MSP, or DTW are a ways out of the way. I generally prefer to connect through YYZ myself, but that’s because I’ve only ever used Terminal 1 other than Terminal 2 once before it was shut down. Terminal 3 needs renovation before I ever want to find myself using it by choice.

cumulushumilis wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:

But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.

The SA market was already brought up, as was WS partnership with AM that pretty much serves this from the West Coast through MEX. And most of the sun destinations in Florida and the Caribbean are already served by WS on their own.

No doubt ATL is a massive hub for DL, but ATL has people coming in from the Western US where ATL is a more convenient stop then it is from Canada. SLC would be the most ideal transfer hub from Western Canada IMHO to points in the US as it wouldn't really matter which direction in the US you were travelling to.

For what its worth, I can't see DTW working very well either given its close proximity to the border for eastern flights, might as well just transfer through EWR (then again, it seems to work for AS between YVR/SEA). But for YYC/YEG/YVR etc, I'd be happier with SLC.

Just my .02 cents worth.

I don't see much changing in terms of new routes except maybe the addition of ATL from the west. DL already has established routes to MSP/SLC/SEA. If anything the A/C gauge, schedule and frequency will be upgraded to existing city pairs to support increased network flow and connectivity (align schedules). DL in the 90s used to fly 727s and 757s into the Alberta market from SLC. Now they have a greater emphasis on MSP and SEA because of the international destinations. SLC does not have a lot of overseas flights and this JV is about much more than US connectivity.


Just noticed they have 717s flying into YYC from MSP some days this winter

MSP and SEA are geographically situated for flights into Alberta. And SLC has a low volume of international flights but it punches above its weight (4x daily to europe on peak summer days, which is more than phoenix sees). Its not like DL would want to fly people from YYC - SLC - AMS. The only market that really makes sense would be YVR/ YYC to Mexico which WestJet serves well already.

Delta customers traveling to LGW from places like LAS or PHX would likely consider the WS over YYC.

For example, one can fly PHX-YYC-LGW today, (about 300 miles further than Delta's PHX-MSP-LHR routing with a 90 minute longer elapsed travel time), for $710.60. Delta mainline is charging $2,668 to LHR today.

WS gives Delta a very effective weapon to deal with Icelandair, WOW etc.

jubguy3 wrote:

cumulushumilis wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

The SA market was already brought up, as was WS partnership with AM that pretty much serves this from the West Coast through MEX. And most of the sun destinations in Florida and the Caribbean are already served by WS on their own.

No doubt ATL is a massive hub for DL, but ATL has people coming in from the Western US where ATL is a more convenient stop then it is from Canada. SLC would be the most ideal transfer hub from Western Canada IMHO to points in the US as it wouldn't really matter which direction in the US you were travelling to.

For what its worth, I can't see DTW working very well either given its close proximity to the border for eastern flights, might as well just transfer through EWR (then again, it seems to work for AS between YVR/SEA). But for YYC/YEG/YVR etc, I'd be happier with SLC.

Just my .02 cents worth.

I don't see much changing in terms of new routes except maybe the addition of ATL from the west. DL already has established routes to MSP/SLC/SEA. If anything the A/C gauge, schedule and frequency will be upgraded to existing city pairs to support increased network flow and connectivity (align schedules). DL in the 90s used to fly 727s and 757s into the Alberta market from SLC. Now they have a greater emphasis on MSP and SEA because of the international destinations. SLC does not have a lot of overseas flights and this JV is about much more than US connectivity.


Just noticed they have 717s flying into YYC from MSP some days this winter

MSP and SEA are geographically situated for flights into Alberta. And SLC has a low volume of international flights but it punches above its weight (4x daily to europe on peak summer days, which is more than phoenix sees). Its not like DL would want to fly people from YYC - SLC - AMS. The only market that really makes sense would be YVR/ YYC to Mexico which WestJet serves well already.

SLC is a great connecting point for flights from YVR/YXX/YLW/YYC/YEG/YXE to points in the US.

ACDC8 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

cumulushumilis wrote:

I don't see much changing in terms of new routes except maybe the addition of ATL from the west. DL already has established routes to MSP/SLC/SEA. If anything the A/C gauge, schedule and frequency will be upgraded to existing city pairs to support increased network flow and connectivity (align schedules). DL in the 90s used to fly 727s and 757s into the Alberta market from SLC. Now they have a greater emphasis on MSP and SEA because of the international destinations. SLC does not have a lot of overseas flights and this JV is about much more than US connectivity.


Just noticed they have 717s flying into YYC from MSP some days this winter

MSP and SEA are geographically situated for flights into Alberta. And SLC has a low volume of international flights but it punches above its weight (4x daily to europe on peak summer days, which is more than phoenix sees). Its not like DL would want to fly people from YYC - SLC - AMS. The only market that really makes sense would be YVR/ YYC to Mexico which WestJet serves well already.

SLC is a great connecting point for flights from YVR/YXX/YLW/YYC/YEG/YXE to points in the US.

It is but SLC currently only has service to YVR and YYC. I would love to see YYJ, YEG, YXE, and YWG added from SLC with YXX and YLW at a future date with this JV.

How about direct flights into BOS from western Canada?

jubguy3 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

MSP and SEA are geographically situated for flights into Alberta. And SLC has a low volume of international flights but it punches above its weight (4x daily to europe on peak summer days, which is more than phoenix sees). Its not like DL would want to fly people from YYC - SLC - AMS. The only market that really makes sense would be YVR/ YYC to Mexico which WestJet serves well already.

SLC is a great connecting point for flights from YVR/YXX/YLW/YYC/YEG/YXE to points in the US.

It is but SLC currently only has service to YVR and YYC. I would love to see YYJ, YEG, YXE, and YWG added from SLC with YXX and YLW at a future date with this JV.

YEG and YWG make sense, one of the competitive advanatages is preclearance in YWG and YEG to add the other cities would erode the already established network traffic that WS has.

In terms of AMS I wonder what the implications the WestJet/Delta JV would have on the DL/KLM -Air France JV? Seems inevitable to me that it become a tripartite agreement in the future due to large presence of KLM - Air France in Canada.

jimbo737 wrote:

Delta customers traveling to LGW from places like LAS or PHX would likely consider the WS over YYC.

For example, one can fly PHX-YYC-LGW today, (about 300 miles further than Delta's PHX-MSP-LHR routing with a 90 minute longer elapsed travel time), for $710.60. Delta mainline is charging $2,668 to LHR today.

WS gives Delta a very effective weapon to deal with Icelandair, WOW etc.

So what’s in it for DL if this can potentially trash their own yields? The Icelandic/wow suggestions is far fetched.

I see this more as a one sided deal for DL to get better access to Canadian markets. Not to benefit WS’s questionable long haul ambitions.

grbauc wrote:

ahj2000 wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

The AA-WS relationship was recently trimmed back, likely in anticipation of this DL deal.

yikes. Wonder what AA will do (or more likely,won’t) do in Canada now.

Yea most likely won't do. ORD would be a nice Gateway hub to Canada or PHL. Just doesn't seem to be the US demand for it.

ORD would seem to be a nice gateway to Canada, but even with the strong *Alliance at both ends: Edmonton, Halifax, London, Regina, Saskatoon, Thunder Bay, and Quebec City have all been dropped. And Kitchner on AA.

If UA/AC can’t make them work, what does DL/WS offer via DTW / ATL? Other than it’s DL, ATL, and DTW (worlds greatest airline and worlds greatest hubs).

jubguy3 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

Oh good god. Just stop it already, will you...

Detroit this, Detroit that... newsflash, DTW isn't gonna become the next JFK or LAX. Suck it up.

When we stop talking about ATL this and ATL that.

ATL is the largest airport in the world.

I think you mean busiest. DFW, DEN, and others are much bigger.

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Good now at least maybe Westjet will add Detroit flights.

Oh good god. Just stop it already, will you...

Detroit this, Detroit that... newsflash, DTW isn't gonna become the next JFK or LAX. Suck it up.

When we stop talking about ATL this and ATL that.

ATL is the largest airport in the world.

jubguy3 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

Oh good god. Just stop it already, will you...

Detroit this, Detroit that... newsflash, DTW isn't gonna become the next JFK or LAX. Suck it up.

When we stop talking about ATL this and ATL that.

ATL is the largest airport in the world.

Just let it go with DTW (mainly one person that brings down the thread). This forum (including most of the DTW thread), know reality from fantasy.

If someone says DTW-BAQ is the most underserved north-south route from the US to Northern South America, take it as a joke like everyone else does.

1900Driver wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Delta customers traveling to LGW from places like LAS or PHX would likely consider the WS over YYC.

For example, one can fly PHX-YYC-LGW today, (about 300 miles further than Delta's PHX-MSP-LHR routing with a 90 minute longer elapsed travel time), for $710.60. Delta mainline is charging $2,668 to LHR today.

WS gives Delta a very effective weapon to deal with Icelandair, WOW etc.

So what’s in it for DL if this can potentially trash their own yields? The Icelandic/wow suggestions is far fetched.

I see this more as a one sided deal for DL to get better access to Canadian markets. Not to benefit WS’s questionable long haul ambitions.

n

Questionable? Have you any idea how full and profitable the WS TATL is?

CHI2DFW wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

When we stop talking about ATL this and ATL that.

ATL is the largest airport in the world.

Just let it go with DTW (mainly one person that brings down the thread). This forum (including most of the DTW thread), know reality from fantasy.

If someone says DTW-BAQ is the most underserved north-south route from the US to Northern South America, take it as a joke like everyone else does.

I contribute to a lot of that sarcasm... I'd just like to know when klm617 would finally understand that nobody wants to hear that nonsense. I'm surprised that he has as much of an issue with DTW as opposed to Minneapolis. It just gets annoying from time to time, like the kid with the new BMW who is angry that he got glossy black and not matte black.

jubguy3 wrote:

CHI2DFW wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

ATL is the largest airport in the world.

Just let it go with DTW (mainly one person that brings down the thread). This forum (including most of the DTW thread), know reality from fantasy.

If someone says DTW-BAQ is the most underserved north-south route from the US to Northern South America, take it as a joke like everyone else does.

I contribute to a lot of that sarcasm... I'd just like to know when klm617 would finally understand that nobody wants to hear that nonsense. I'm surprised that he has as much of an issue with DTW as opposed to Minneapolis. It just gets annoying from time to time, like the kid with the new BMW who is angry that he got glossy black and not matte black.

Don’t let CHI2DFW fool you though, because he/she/it pours just as much if not more fuel into the fire. Also has beef over DTW because of 1 user they don’t like.

jimbo737 wrote:

1900Driver wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Delta customers traveling to LGW from places like LAS or PHX would likely consider the WS over YYC.

For example, one can fly PHX-YYC-LGW today, (about 300 miles further than Delta's PHX-MSP-LHR routing with a 90 minute longer elapsed travel time), for $710.60. Delta mainline is charging $2,668 to LHR today.

WS gives Delta a very effective weapon to deal with Icelandair, WOW etc.

So what’s in it for DL if this can potentially trash their own yields? The Icelandic/wow suggestions is far fetched.

I see this more as a one sided deal for DL to get better access to Canadian markets. Not to benefit WS’s questionable long haul ambitions.

n

Questionable? Have you any idea how full and profitable the WS TATL is?

No we don't really know because they embedded the results under "transborder & international". Can you show me specific numbers?

I don't doubt they made money, but going TATL to London summer seasonal is hardly impressive. Any organized carrier with a half decent business model can make money going into these markets in the summer. But the Canadian dilemma persist...with an expanded widebody fleet, where do you fly these airplanes off season/winter time? So yes, questionable.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2017/12/08/delta-air-lines-450-million-boeing-airbus-westjet.html

I haven't followed up with the details of the agreement, but this article suggests that Delta may be purchasing a stake into Westjet? This seems to be part of DL's strategy. If so, it looks like ws will become a vehicle for DL.

1900Driver wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Delta customers traveling to LGW from places like LAS or PHX would likely consider the WS over YYC.

For example, one can fly PHX-YYC-LGW today, (about 300 miles further than Delta's PHX-MSP-LHR routing with a 90 minute longer elapsed travel time), for $710.60. Delta mainline is charging $2,668 to LHR today.

WS gives Delta a very effective weapon to deal with Icelandair, WOW etc.

So what’s in it for DL if this can potentially trash their own yields? The Icelandic/wow suggestions is far fetched.

I see this more as a one sided deal for DL to get better access to Canadian markets. Not to benefit WS’s questionable long haul ambitions.

People are getting way ahead of reality here. This agreement is for:

1. A Transborder ONLY Joint Venture.
a. Coordinated flight schedules for NEW nonstop flights to NEW destinations.
b. Enhanced codesharing in US/Canada.
c. Enhanced and reciprocal frequent flyer benefits.

Nothing to do with transatlantic, nothing to do with Westjet longhaul outside of US, nothing to do with a 3-way tie-up with DL/AF-KLM.

Now, all that COULD possibly come in the future but it sure has nothing to do with the scope of the recent agreement.

1900Driver wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

1900Driver wrote:

I don't doubt they made money, but going TATL to London summer seasonal is hardly impressive. Any organized carrier with a half decent business model can make money going into these markets in the summer. But the Canadian dilemma persist...with an expanded widebody fleet, where do you fly these airplanes off season/winter time? So yes, questionable.

WS are operating year round to LGW from YYC and YYZ, with spare widebody capacity going to Hawaii from YYC/YEG. Europe is not seasonal and hasn't been for a couple of years.

1900Driver wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

1900Driver wrote:

So what’s in it for DL if this can potentially trash their own yields? The Icelandic/wow suggestions is far fetched.

I see this more as a one sided deal for DL to get better access to Canadian markets. Not to benefit WS’s questionable long haul ambitions.

n

Questionable? Have you any idea how full and profitable the WS TATL is?

No we don't really know because they embedded the results under "transborder & international". Can you show me specific numbers?

I don't doubt they made money, but going TATL to London summer seasonal is hardly impressive. Any organized carrier with a half decent business model can make money going into these markets in the summer. But the Canadian dilemma persist...with an expanded widebody fleet, where do you fly these airplanes off season/winter time? So yes, questionable.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2017/12/08/delta-air-lines-450-million-boeing-airbus-westjet.html

I haven't followed up with the details of the agreement, but this article suggests that Delta may be purchasing a stake into Westjet? This seems to be part of DL's strategy. If so, it looks like ws will become a vehicle for DL.

LGW is daily year round from YYZ, and year round from YYC, though I don’t know the frequency off hand. LF’s between Oct 2016 and Oct 2017 across all of the LGW flights averaged 93%.

klm617 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

What Atlanta gives is Latin and South America but I suspect that there is little demand for those kinds of connections from YYC. The biggest draw for people from Calagary outside of Canada would be vacation destinations Like Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico which Westjet has pretty well covered itself so hence Atlanta has no real added value since most of the large business centers in the USA would require back tracking if they connect over ATL which Detroit would allow them to connect the access to the entire east coast from YYC with one stop.

Volume doesn't necessarily equate to profitability. Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico are all low yield leisure destinations that WestJet already serves. This isn't about more options for vacationers, it's about getting into the network of a full service global carrier.

I wonder how quickly they'll address the difference in products between DL and WS. Are they going to price WS flights below DL flights? Because if a business traveler has a choice, they'll pick DL over WS every time assuming there is a connection. I know WS has long term plans to evolve into a more full service product but they aren't there yet.

drgmobile wrote:

klm617 wrote:

ACDC8 wrote:

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?

What Atlanta gives is Latin and South America but I suspect that there is little demand for those kinds of connections from YYC. The biggest draw for people from Calagary outside of Canada would be vacation destinations Like Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico which Westjet has pretty well covered itself so hence Atlanta has no real added value since most of the large business centers in the USA would require back tracking if they connect over ATL which Detroit would allow them to connect the access to the entire east coast from YYC with one stop.

Volume doesn't necessarily equate to profitability. Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico are all low yield leisure destinations that WestJet already serves. This isn't about more options for vacationers, it's about getting into the network of a full service global carrier.

Even after going through multiple new initiatives, ie adding 43 new turboprops since 2012, launching widebody TATL on top of the established summer seasonal narrowbody TATL operation, WJ has a track record of profitability that few can rival over the past 22 years.

In case you haven’t figured it out, WJ’s problem has always been one of “too many opportunities, not enough iron”. They don’t have the iron to be able to do everything that’s available to the market on a year round basis, thus the dramatic schedule reorientation every May and November. WJ does not have the iron required to run a modest TATL operation from YVR to LGW in the winter, a no brainer if there ever was one. Toronto could easily support summer double dailies to LGW. That’s just a start.

People forget Canada had no Cdn based network TATL carrier for nearly 16 years after the failure of Canadian and their rescue from bankruptcy in late 1999. Since that time, WJ has grown from roughly 12 to 150 aircraft with which to feed long haul operations, not to mention alliance partners and soon, WJ link addding 30 passengers a flight into the network.

WJ grows slowly and deliberately, avoiding the pitfalls of the fast, willy nilly implosive growth that has been the downfall of countless airlines in the past.

Compare this to the problem at their main rival which has always been one of building the church for Easter Sunday. Too much capacity, at too high a cost structure resulting in great summer numbers followed by poor winter numbers. Cheap fuel has disguised the problem for a couple of years, but it will present itself again, in spades, when oil eventually sneaks up north of $75 a bbl.