Acey
Posts: 1010
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:04 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Interesting, I haven’t yet seen one post speculating that this deal may also result in WS starting SEA and PDX. This has been expected for awhile but I would think a JV with DL makes it more likely.

There has been speculation here in YYC about this potentially resulting in WR or WS taking over or supplementing the existing CP or OO service to SEA. DL seems relatively committed to YYC-SEA and YEG-SEA.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:08 pm

Running flights, especially flights that are close to 4 hours long each way, into a hub where there's virtually no local traffic isn't a strategy that is likely to result in profitability.

Once you take Boston, NY and Washington out of the equation there's not much in the US northeast that is viable from Western Canada, (and Chicago is a back haul).

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.
 
User avatar
CFM565A1
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.

Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.

The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.

Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.


I completely agree with this. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with DTW on here but I don’t see it in the future for WS should they fly into DL cities.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, Been on: ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER, MD-82/83, 757-200, 767-300, F28-4000.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7419
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:20 am

jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
777Mech
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:54 am

klm617 wrote:
Acey wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The point was that this doesn't help consumers. We want more competition and low prices. Yyz lga had seriously high fares before porter entered the market.

Being able to fly YYC-ATL-xxx helps me, and I'm a consumer. I'm not sure you get to tell me what's beneficial to my travel plans.



But DTW-YYC-xxx would help you more.


Who would want to connect in DTW? ATL is the superior hub, more destinations and flights. I'd argue MSP is a very close 2nd.
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:36 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?


What Atlanta gives is Latin and South America but I suspect that there is little demand for those kinds of connections from YYC. The biggest draw for people from Calagary outside of Canada would be vacation destinations Like Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico which Westjet has pretty well covered itself so hence Atlanta has no real added value since most of the large business centers in the USA would require back tracking if they connect over ATL which Detroit would allow them to connect the access to the entire east coast from YYC with one stop.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Dominion301
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:26 pm

klm617 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?


What Atlanta gives is Latin and South America but I suspect that there is little demand for those kinds of connections from YYC. The biggest draw for people from Calagary outside of Canada would be vacation destinations Like Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico which Westjet has pretty well covered itself so hence Atlanta has no real added value since most of the large business centers in the USA would require back tracking if they connect over ATL which Detroit would allow them to connect the access to the entire east coast from YYC with one stop.


The thing is, with 2x daily YYC-MEX between WS and AM, plus with AA/UA via Texas, that covers Latin/South America very well already. I still think YYC-ATL will happen (on WS) as it will soon be a hub-to-hub route.

On a completely separate note, I wonder whether WS/DL will now look at returning to some former legacy NW transborder routes, like YQR, YQT or YXU with a daily Q400? I wonder if WS will look at YOW/YQB/YQM/YYT-BOS on Encore as DL have stated their intentions of growing BOS to be the SEA of the east coast? I hear they'll be getting 5 more gates at BOS soon to grow.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7419
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:38 pm

klm617 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?


What Atlanta gives is Latin and South America but I suspect that there is little demand for those kinds of connections from YYC. The biggest draw for people from Calagary outside of Canada would be vacation destinations Like Florida, the Caribbean and Mexico which Westjet has pretty well covered itself so hence Atlanta has no real added value since most of the large business centers in the USA would require back tracking if they connect over ATL which Detroit would allow them to connect the access to the entire east coast from YYC with one stop.

That’s pretty much why I was asking. Unless you’re heading south, ATL would be a poor choice to connect from Canada
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:39 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.

Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.

The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.

Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.


I completely agree with this. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with DTW on here but I don’t see it in the future for WS should they fly into DL cities.
I actually majorly disagree with y’all. Before we start skewing PDEW and say that it’s only 6 between DTW-YYC, the Connection possibilities for the south and east coast are bounds better than MSP, I really think WS will stretch doing YYC-DTW and a seasonal YVR, that’s it for now.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
User avatar
CFM565A1
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:05 pm

flymco753 wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
There is virtually no community of interest between Calgary and Detroit and therefore no local traffic. I doubt this will occur.

WS already has seasonal Windsor - Calgary. The moment you cross then border, it attracts almost $50 in US fees and taxes. There is no way around this. No one is going to incur the additional cost of flying to DTW and then make their way back across the border to Windsor.

Atlanta is obviously more likely, from at least 2 of WS’s 3 focus cities. SLC is a possibility from YYC due to the strong Morman connection along the north south Mormon corridor.

The Southwest Codeshare was stillborn due to the limitations of Southwest’s archaic IT systems and limitations within the SWAPA contract. There was a point in WS’s history where YYZ-BWI-FLL or YYC-SLC-PHX might have made sense, but by 2010, that train had long since left the station and WJ was operating all the flights themselves n/s.

Replacing N/S Service with one stop over a Delta hub, especially in the winter, opens the door wide open for the potential, (I purposefully didn’t use “prospective”), new entrants, (none of which are capitalized), all of which are desperate to figure out what to do with their airplanes from mid Oct thru mid May.


I completely agree with this. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with DTW on here but I don’t see it in the future for WS should they fly into DL cities.
I actually majorly disagree with y’all. Before we start skewing PDEW and say that it’s only 6 between DTW-YYC, the Connection possibilities for the south and east coast are bounds better than MSP, I really think WS will stretch doing YYC-DTW and a seasonal YVR, that’s it for now.


Well until I actually see the route I won’t believe it. I know the Calgary market well (I live in it). I also know that you have a thing for DTW I’ve seen it other threads which is fine because we all have a certain place we hope does well. I do not think they will shoot themselves in the foot for their Windsor flights nor do I they want to risk reducing YYZ travel that would be mostly on their own plane. Keep in mind their MGMT wants to continue to grow Encore and if you start having a ton of connections through DTW would kill Encore’s east coast US ops out of YYZ to Eastern US cities. Further to that, I see actually getting more access to places like ATL and JFK where they can really give AC some competition on those routes.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, Been on: ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER, MD-82/83, 757-200, 767-300, F28-4000.
 
cumulushumilis
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:14 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:

I completely agree with this. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with DTW on here but I don’t see it in the future for WS should they fly into DL cities.
I actually majorly disagree with y’all. Before we start skewing PDEW and say that it’s only 6 between DTW-YYC, the Connection possibilities for the south and east coast are bounds better than MSP, I really think WS will stretch doing YYC-DTW and a seasonal YVR, that’s it for now.


Well until I actually see the route I won’t believe it. I know the Calgary market well (I live in it). I also know that you have a thing for DTW I’ve seen it other threads which is fine because we all have a certain place we hope does well. I do not think they will shoot themselves in the foot for their Windsor flights nor do I they want to risk reducing YYZ travel that would be mostly on their own plane. Keep in mind their MGMT wants to continue to grow Encore and if you start having a ton of connections through DTW would kill Encore’s east coast US ops out of YYZ to Eastern US cities. Further to that, I see actually getting more access to places like ATL and JFK where they can really give AC some competition on those routes.


Right now Windsor supports Visiting friends and relatives (VFR) market. I could see Windsor moving to Swoop if anything.
 
User avatar
CFM565A1
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:24 pm

cumulushumilis wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I actually majorly disagree with y’all. Before we start skewing PDEW and say that it’s only 6 between DTW-YYC, the Connection possibilities for the south and east coast are bounds better than MSP, I really think WS will stretch doing YYC-DTW and a seasonal YVR, that’s it for now.


Well until I actually see the route I won’t believe it. I know the Calgary market well (I live in it). I also know that you have a thing for DTW I’ve seen it other threads which is fine because we all have a certain place we hope does well. I do not think they will shoot themselves in the foot for their Windsor flights nor do I they want to risk reducing YYZ travel that would be mostly on their own plane. Keep in mind their MGMT wants to continue to grow Encore and if you start having a ton of connections through DTW would kill Encore’s east coast US ops out of YYZ to Eastern US cities. Further to that, I see actually getting more access to places like ATL and JFK where they can really give AC some competition on those routes.


Right now Windsor supports Visiting friends and relatives (VFR) market. I could see Windsor moving to Swoop if anything.


Yes you are correct and I think it’s a perfect Swoop dest. I’m just kind of going off of what Jimbo737 said. I will be the first on here to eat crow if they do start YYC-DTW.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, Been on: ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER, MD-82/83, 757-200, 767-300, F28-4000.
 
FA9295
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:35 pm

klm617 wrote:
Good now at least maybe Westjet will add Detroit flights.


Oh good god. Just stop it already, will you...

Detroit this, Detroit that... newsflash, DTW isn't gonna become the next JFK or LAX. Suck it up.
Last edited by FA9295 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
CFM565A1
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:45 pm

FA9295 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Good now at least maybe Westjet will add Detroit flights.


Oh good god. Just stop it already, will you...

:lol: :rotfl:
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, Been on: ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER, MD-82/83, 757-200, 767-300, F28-4000.
 
FA9295
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:51 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?


ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:32 pm

FA9295 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:

Atlanta - Toronto and Atlanta - Calgary brings much more to the table.

Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?


ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...



Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:33 pm

FA9295 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Good now at least maybe Westjet will add Detroit flights.


Oh good god. Just stop it already, will you...

Detroit this, Detroit that... newsflash, DTW isn't gonna become the next JFK or LAX. Suck it up.


When we stop talking about ATL this and ATL that.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klakzky123
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:47 pm

klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?


ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...



Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..


Hence why DL flies to YYC from MSP.
 
AirNovaBAe146
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:36 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?


ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...



Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..


But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:45 pm

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...



Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..


But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.



Please all those places you mentioned on a good day probably generate 20 O/D a day. WS doesn't serve BDL,PVD,PHL,PIT,SYR,ALB,EWR and the like so hence DTW is a much better add.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7419
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:50 pm

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:
But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.

The SA market was already brought up, as was WS partnership with AM that pretty much serves this from the West Coast through MEX. And most of the sun destinations in Florida and the Caribbean are already served by WS on their own.

No doubt ATL is a massive hub for DL, but ATL has people coming in from the Western US where ATL is a more convenient stop then it is from Canada. SLC would be the most ideal transfer hub from Western Canada IMHO to points in the US as it wouldn't really matter which direction in the US you were travelling to.

For what its worth, I can't see DTW working very well either given its close proximity to the border for eastern flights, might as well just transfer through EWR (then again, it seems to work for AS between YVR/SEA). But for YYC/YEG/YVR etc, I'd be happier with SLC.

Just my .02 cents worth.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
grbauc
Posts: 830
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:03 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Does that mean AA is losing WestJet? What about WestJet's relationship to other OW's partners such as BA and QF?


The AA-WS relationship was recently trimmed back, likely in anticipation of this DL deal.

yikes. Wonder what AA will do (or more likely,won’t) do in Canada now.



Yea most likely won't do. ORD would be a nice Gateway hub to Canada or PHL. Just doesn't seem to be the US demand for it.
 
cumulushumilis
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:29 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
AirNovaBAe146 wrote:
But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.

The SA market was already brought up, as was WS partnership with AM that pretty much serves this from the West Coast through MEX. And most of the sun destinations in Florida and the Caribbean are already served by WS on their own.

No doubt ATL is a massive hub for DL, but ATL has people coming in from the Western US where ATL is a more convenient stop then it is from Canada. SLC would be the most ideal transfer hub from Western Canada IMHO to points in the US as it wouldn't really matter which direction in the US you were travelling to.

For what its worth, I can't see DTW working very well either given its close proximity to the border for eastern flights, might as well just transfer through EWR (then again, it seems to work for AS between YVR/SEA). But for YYC/YEG/YVR etc, I'd be happier with SLC.

Just my .02 cents worth.


I don't see much changing in terms of new routes except maybe the addition of ATL from the west. DL already has established routes to MSP/SLC/SEA. If anything the A/C gauge, schedule and frequency will be upgraded to existing city pairs to support increased network flow and connectivity (align schedules). DL in the 90s used to fly 727s and 757s into the Alberta market from SLC. Now they have a greater emphasis on MSP and SEA because of the international destinations. SLC does not have a lot of overseas flights and this JV is about much more than US connectivity.


Just noticed they have 717s flying into YYC from MSP some days this winter
 
FA9295
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:58 am

klakzky123 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:

ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...



Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..


Hence why DL flies to YYC from MSP.


True, it may not be very "convenient" per se, but since ATL offers most of its routes from its largest base, they'll still have more options...
 
User avatar
CFM565A1
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:53 am

klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?


ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...



Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..


Becuase they’ll go through YYZ on Encore when they continue to add cities like those.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, Been on: ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER, MD-82/83, 757-200, 767-300, F28-4000.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:03 am

Everyone keeps asking about AA and their response, I can’t see many options for them. At very best, they double down to one of their hubs, let’s just say ORD for hypothetical sake. That leaves pax with the option of connecting through an AA hub, or connecting at YYZ on WS or AC depending on their preference. Where is the advantage for AA?
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:05 am

whywhyzee wrote:
Everyone keeps asking about AA and their response, I can’t see many options for them. At very best, they double down to one of their hubs, let’s just say ORD for hypothetical sake. That leaves pax with the option of connecting through an AA hub, or connecting at YYZ on WS or AC depending on their preference. Where is the advantage for AA?


The codeshare with AA is done in mid Jan!
 
AirNovaBAe146
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:36 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:35 am

klm617 wrote:
AirNovaBAe146 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..


But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.



Please all those places you mentioned on a good day probably generate 20 O/D a day. WS doesn't serve BDL,PVD,PHL,PIT,SYR,ALB,EWR and the like so hence DTW is a much better add.


You would be surprised. WS is doing YYC-BNA 2-3 x / week, and occasionally throwing -800s on the route due to high loads. If they can fill a 737 twice per week YYC-BNA, I'm confident they have the drawing power in Calgary to get enough passengers to justify a daily YYC-ATL. And yes, I do realize that BNA is the kind of market that draws people, kind of like a LAS, whereas ATL is all about connections. I just believe in the synergies of the JV and that they will pull enough passengers with connections to fill a 737 on the route.

Look at how the AC/UA partnership has evolved, where AC has multiple daily flights to all the UA hubs from their Canadian hubs, even ones that on the surface don't necessarily make sense. It is all about the connections they enable. I don't think the question is "Will the WS serve YYC ATL or YYC DTW" - I think the JV will enable both, on the right metal. And mark my words - these carriers have enough airplanes to get the right one for the job on it.. Will be interesting what they deem the best fit, be it a WS 737, a Delta narrowbody (717, 737, Airbus 320 series), something from a Delta Connection carrier, or an Encore Q400. Offhand - how do CASMs compare between WS and DL. I would think YYC ATL would be a 737 a day to start, but YYC DTW could easily be a Delta Connection E175 multiple times per day for enhanced NE connections. The passengers exist, as AC's US route network demonstrates. This will just give them another, possibly more direct, and maybe cheaper way to get to where they need to go. And were I from Western Canada, I'd rather connect through MSP or DTW, do pre-clearance in YYC vs YYZ, plus not be stuck on an Air Canada Express B1900s or DHC-8s that seem to do a lot of the NE destinations.

Interestingly, of the flights between the WS and DL hubs / focus cities, I can't think of any current overlap between the two.

WS does YYZ LGA, YYZ/YUL/YHZ BOS (WS Encore), YYZ LAX, YYC JFK and YYC/YEG/YVR LAX, along with seasonal service between YWG / YQR and LAX.

DL does ATL YYZ, DTW YYZ, MSP YYZ, MSP YYC, SLC YYC, SLC YVR, SEA YYC, SEA YVR, ATL YUL, I think a season JFK & ATL to YVR plus service to several secondary Canadian cities.

Also - as Jimbo737 likes to occasionally mention - DL is quite aware of how AC's US expansion is poaching passengers for international connections, mainly thru YYZ but occasionally through YUL, YYC and YVR. With WS 787s showing up in the next year or so, will be curious if the JV starts to route low-yielding traffic on WS to Europe, to compete with AC Rouge and other lower cost carriers. WS already has been pulling US connections for some of their European flights (eg FLL YYZ DUB) - imagine adding Delta's pull to the equation.

Looking forward to watching this unfold.
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:28 am

klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Sorry, but exactly what does ATL bring to the table?


ATL is Delta's biggest hub, so a lot more connections would be open to travelers from Canadian cities through Atlanta...



Not really because who is going to fly YYC-ATL-BOS/NYC/BDL/PVD/DCA and the like these are all accessible over Detroit better than ATL. Just because it's a bigger hub doesn't mean it's more convenient..

For eastern North American destinations right now you either use YYZ with WS or MSP with DL. Surely together this would be enough to cover most if not all of the realistic markets that no new routes need to be built. Then you have to consider the possible and probable further growth of Encore. Why would the hand all their business off to DL metal when they can open routes with their own. Furthermore, neither of the two existing options are really anymore out of the way than DTW, not significantly anyway. Sounds like that would be shooting themselves in the foot to me.

The thing with ATL is it serves places that going through YYZ, MSP, or DTW are a ways out of the way. I generally prefer to connect through YYZ myself, but that’s because I’ve only ever used Terminal 1 other than Terminal 2 once before it was shut down. Terminal 3 needs renovation before I ever want to find myself using it by choice.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
jubguy3
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:18 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:55 am

cumulushumilis wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
AirNovaBAe146 wrote:
But there will be enough people flying YYC-ATL- JAX/MLB/EYW/CAE/GSP/MYR/SAV/BHM/JAN/HSV/BQK/GNV/TLH/GSP/any other SE US destination or onwards to countries like South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Peru or Caribbean / Mexico / Central America destinations that WS doesn't serve to make it worth while. There isn't a lot of traffic between YYC and ATL, but when you factor in the power of the DL ATL hub, where you can basically make any city pair work, YYC-ATL will be done by WS and will be successful.

For connections between YYC and the NE USA, passengers will be routed through YYZ and then onwards.

The SA market was already brought up, as was WS partnership with AM that pretty much serves this from the West Coast through MEX. And most of the sun destinations in Florida and the Caribbean are already served by WS on their own.

No doubt ATL is a massive hub for DL, but ATL has people coming in from the Western US where ATL is a more convenient stop then it is from Canada. SLC would be the most ideal transfer hub from Western Canada IMHO to points in the US as it wouldn't really matter which direction in the US you were travelling to.

For what its worth, I can't see DTW working very well either given its close proximity to the border for eastern flights, might as well just transfer through EWR (then again, it seems to work for AS between YVR/SEA). But for YYC/YEG/YVR etc, I'd be happier with SLC.

Just my .02 cents worth.


I don't see much changing in terms of new routes except maybe the addition of ATL from the west. DL already has established routes to MSP/SLC/SEA. If anything the A/C gauge, schedule and frequency will be upgraded to existing city pairs to support increased network flow and connectivity (align schedules). DL in the 90s used to fly 727s and 757s into the Alberta market from SLC. Now they have a greater emphasis on MSP and SEA because of the international destinations. SLC does not have a lot of overseas flights and this JV is about much more than US connectivity.


Just noticed they have 717s flying into YYC from MSP some days this winter


MSP and SEA are geographically situated for flights into Alberta. And SLC has a low volume of international flights but it punches above its weight (4x daily to europe on peak summer days, which is more than phoenix sees). Its not like DL would want to fly people from YYC - SLC - AMS. The only market that really makes sense would be YVR/ YYC to Mexico which WestJet serves well already.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:13 pm

Delta customers traveling to LGW from places like LAS or PHX would likely consider the WS over YYC.

For example, one can fly PHX-YYC-LGW today, (about 300 miles further than Delta's PHX-MSP-LHR routing with a 90 minute longer elapsed travel time), for $710.60. Delta mainline is charging $2,668 to LHR today.

WS gives Delta a very effective weapon to deal with Icelandair, WOW etc.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7419
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:05 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
cumulushumilis wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
The SA market was already brought up, as was WS partnership with AM that pretty much serves this from the West Coast through MEX. And most of the sun destinations in Florida and the Caribbean are already served by WS on their own.

No doubt ATL is a massive hub for DL, but ATL has people coming in from the Western US where ATL is a more convenient stop then it is from Canada. SLC would be the most ideal transfer hub from Western Canada IMHO to points in the US as it wouldn't really matter which direction in the US you were travelling to.

For what its worth, I can't see DTW working very well either given its close proximity to the border for eastern flights, might as well just transfer through EWR (then again, it seems to work for AS between YVR/SEA). But for YYC/YEG/YVR etc, I'd be happier with SLC.

Just my .02 cents worth.


I don't see much changing in terms of new routes except maybe the addition of ATL from the west. DL already has established routes to MSP/SLC/SEA. If anything the A/C gauge, schedule and frequency will be upgraded to existing city pairs to support increased network flow and connectivity (align schedules). DL in the 90s used to fly 727s and 757s into the Alberta market from SLC. Now they have a greater emphasis on MSP and SEA because of the international destinations. SLC does not have a lot of overseas flights and this JV is about much more than US connectivity.


Just noticed they have 717s flying into YYC from MSP some days this winter


MSP and SEA are geographically situated for flights into Alberta. And SLC has a low volume of international flights but it punches above its weight (4x daily to europe on peak summer days, which is more than phoenix sees). Its not like DL would want to fly people from YYC - SLC - AMS. The only market that really makes sense would be YVR/ YYC to Mexico which WestJet serves well already.

SLC is a great connecting point for flights from YVR/YXX/YLW/YYC/YEG/YXE to points in the US.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
jubguy3
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:18 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:06 am

ACDC8 wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:
cumulushumilis wrote:

I don't see much changing in terms of new routes except maybe the addition of ATL from the west. DL already has established routes to MSP/SLC/SEA. If anything the A/C gauge, schedule and frequency will be upgraded to existing city pairs to support increased network flow and connectivity (align schedules). DL in the 90s used to fly 727s and 757s into the Alberta market from SLC. Now they have a greater emphasis on MSP and SEA because of the international destinations. SLC does not have a lot of overseas flights and this JV is about much more than US connectivity.


Just noticed they have 717s flying into YYC from MSP some days this winter


MSP and SEA are geographically situated for flights into Alberta. And SLC has a low volume of international flights but it punches above its weight (4x daily to europe on peak summer days, which is more than phoenix sees). Its not like DL would want to fly people from YYC - SLC - AMS. The only market that really makes sense would be YVR/ YYC to Mexico which WestJet serves well already.

SLC is a great connecting point for flights from YVR/YXX/YLW/YYC/YEG/YXE to points in the US.


It is but SLC currently only has service to YVR and YYC. I would love to see YYJ, YEG, YXE, and YWG added from SLC with YXX and YLW at a future date with this JV.
 
rockyracoon
Posts: 1049
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:58 am

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:46 am

How about direct flights into BOS from western Canada?
Airports: CVG PIT MWO PHL PHX ORD DCA MIA TPA MCO ATL DTW DFW SJC LAX DEN SLC LAS HNL LIH OGG YVR MUC ICN NRT PVG SHA SZX MNL PPS CRK BKK DMK KBV EOH MDE CLO CTG SMR BOG ACD MEX CUN MID AUA
 
cumulushumilis
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 pm

Re: Delta and Westjet agree to form US-Canada JV

Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:56 am

jubguy3 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:

MSP and SEA are geographically situated for flights into Alberta. And SLC has a low volume of international flights but it punches above its weight (4x daily to europe on peak summer days, which is more than phoenix sees). Its not like DL would want to fly people from YYC - SLC - AMS. The only market that really makes sense would be YVR/ YYC to Mexico which WestJet serves well already.

SLC is a great connecting point for flights from YVR/YXX/YLW/YYC/YEG/YXE to points in the US.


It is but SLC currently only has service to YVR and YYC. I would love to see YYJ, YEG, YXE, and YWG added from SLC with YXX and YLW at a future date with this JV.


YEG and YWG make sense, one of the competitive advanatages is preclearance in YWG and YEG to add the other cities would erode the already established network traffic that WS has.

In terms of AMS I wonder what the implications the WestJet/Delta JV would have on the DL/KLM -Air France JV? Seems inevitable to me that it become a tripartite agreement in the future due to large presence of KLM - Air France in Canada.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos