Cointrin330
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Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:33 am

The Polaris brand and experience were officially launched December 1st 2016. A year later, there is 1 Polaris lounge in operation (at ORD), and 15 planes have the full product (all 14 777-300ERs and 1 767-300ER). AA seems to be rolling out its new Flagship lounges at a faster pace, though its premium cabin product is all over the place depending on the plane you fly.

What are the issues with UA's slower roll out of Polaris?
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:05 pm

The answer is with Zodiac, seat manufacturer, they are a basket case when it comes to on time delivery.

https://skift.com/2017/03/15/united-air ... ufacturer/
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jetwet1
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:27 pm

I can't answer directly, but in my company, we are remodeling all the public restrooms. We spent months planning this down to the last detail, we took one out of service at one of our properties at the beginning of October, we had a time line of 3 weeks to gut and install 16 stalls, 8 urinals and 10 sinks, the gutting went quickly, now at every turn there is a problem, cracked pipes, flooring that has to be replaced, it's just a nightmare.

Anyways, my point is, you do one so everyone has a feel for the things that are right and the things that have to be rethought, this could be what is happening with the lounges.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:08 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
I can't answer directly, but in my company, we are remodeling all the public restrooms. We spent months planning this down to the last detail, we took one out of service at one of our properties at the beginning of October, we had a time line of 3 weeks to gut and install 16 stalls, 8 urinals and 10 sinks, the gutting went quickly, now at every turn there is a problem, cracked pipes, flooring that has to be replaced, it's just a nightmare.

Anyways, my point is, you do one so everyone has a feel for the things that are right and the things that have to be rethought, this could be what is happening with the lounges.

This is an excellent point. Plans are all well and good, but they never account for a multitude of challenges, difficulties, and unforseen circumstances. Let's not forget that when it comes to remodeling a lounge, there is a huge range of issues to deal with. Not only do they have to cover it being out of operation for a month or two (or more), but they likely need various permits, and every airport has a different existing design and age, which means different issues. It's a lot more than throwing down some new floors, slapping up some paint, and installing some new furniture. They're total redesigns that are working from different plans and layouts. It would be great if it was a one-size fits all, but that's not the case.

As for the seats, well, that's another issue. I think it was unwise for United to work with Zodiac on this seat given their issues the past few years. American dropped them entirely because they couldn't get their act together, and clearly that carried over to this contract. I'm sure it was a challenge given how quickly the 77Ws came off the line, but that's not really an excuse...Boeing built entire airplanes in less time than Zodiac could construct the seats. The first 763 certainly took longer (for similar reasons mentioned by jetwet1...the first one is always the learning experience), but the remainder will be much quicker, and they've also got multiple aircraft in mod. Unfortunately these things never move as quickly as people would like, but there are a lot of issues to contend with.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:15 pm

It’s not plug and play, a serious amount of thought and planning goes into these things.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:27 pm

As someone who is currently going through the pre-construction phase on my home...there are delays everwhere. Architects don't always make as much headway as one wants...if structural engineering challenges arise (all these lounges will require serious structural rework) it causes delays. Permits can take forever to get. And during construction, problems are found that were unknown, some of which may require reworking the original plan etc...you get the idea. Unless you build something on an empty lot, things often get delayed a ton.
 
slider
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:50 pm

aaexecplat wrote:
As someone who is currently going through the pre-construction phase on my home...there are delays everwhere. Architects don't always make as much headway as one wants...if structural engineering challenges arise (all these lounges will require serious structural rework) it causes delays. Permits can take forever to get. And during construction, problems are found that were unknown, some of which may require reworking the original plan etc...you get the idea. Unless you build something on an empty lot, things often get delayed a ton.


Particularly when you're doing construction within an existing airport space or, as in UA's case with some of the locations of the Polaris lounges, carving off a certain amount of real estate from an adjacent United Club.

The EWR project was extremely long.
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:52 pm

Anyone know what the latest open date is for the SFO lounge?
 
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STT757
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:08 pm

The latest information I can find has the EWR, SFO and LHR lounges opening "early 2018". With IAH, LAX, NRT, HKG and IAD following later in the year.

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/07/united-polaris-lounge-2018/
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Flighty
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:22 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
I can't answer directly, but in my company, we are remodeling all the public restrooms. We spent months planning this down to the last detail, we took one out of service at one of our properties at the beginning of October, we had a time line of 3 weeks to gut and install 16 stalls, 8 urinals and 10 sinks, the gutting went quickly, now at every turn there is a problem, cracked pipes, flooring that has to be replaced, it's just a nightmare.

Anyways, my point is, you do one so everyone has a feel for the things that are right and the things that have to be rethought, this could be what is happening with the lounges.


Very much so. Nothing is done right the first time. The "struggle" of solving problems can be called "work." People do it.

It sounds like every lounge will be a separate custom project. They will all be different. That's a lot of design and engineering work.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:00 pm

At ORD the construction took over a year. After opening they discovered that the uptake by customers far exceeded expectations so they will likely have to close it down and expand it at some point to alleviate the fact that it's always full. I think that experience caused a rethink and redesign of all the other hub clubs.
 
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:06 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
It’s not plug and play, a serious amount of thought and planning goes into these things.


True... but not all are created equal. Painting an aircraft takes planning, thought effort but when you compare and contrast Delta (after NW merger) and United... there is a massive difference in how it was handled.

However, in this case, the blame so far is on Zodiac, the seat manufacturer
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klwright69
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:12 pm

CNN had a segment with Richard Quest on Polaris. The ORD Polaris lounge was deemed too small and crowded. Therefore everything has to be rethought.
 
drdisque
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:04 pm

Yes, the original concept was that they would carve the Polaris lounges out of the footprints of existing United Clubs (without substantially altering the number of United Clubs). Now that that's clear that won't work from a capacity and practicality standpoint, they're having to rethink it.
 
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:51 am

At EWR there was no sign of renovating starting in the big club in TC located just after security. I think one misstep was launching beautiful videos with relaxing music so, so long before they broke carpet tile.
Next, the agents at the EWR clubs were always, either misinformed about timing or really had no information to give premium fliers updates about “when” the very dated club would be renovated.

Finally they started months ago. United partioned parts of the club to do demolition, kept other parts open, moved seating into the reception area etc. Today it is officially closed and I presume under full construction. The agents say it is due to open as one enormous Polaris Club around July. That will mean over 9 months to complete. That seems like a very long time given I’ve seen skyscrapers go up in NYC in a year: Empire State Building took 13 months in 1933!
That being said, I am hoping that when the wait is over it will have been worth it: that the EWR POLARIS LOUNGE will be stunning. EWR deserves it!
One stop gap measure United took that I find very positive is “Classified” a semi-secret, hidden, upscale restaurant that you can reserve a table in if you’re flying in J or if you have high status (UA don’t make it absolutely clear what the criteria is to get in). But I’ve been twice and going again tomorrow. (My first time there Mr Quest was at a table nearby) It’s a beautiful space, amazing food and very friendly service, white table cloth, but with full power and iPad ordering / paying system - and you can pay for your full meal with money or miles. Frankly it’s better than the club. It also has a great view.
You can Google “Classified United” to try and get a reservation.

Polaris in full effect, (in a few years) from lounge to flight should be great when finished and especially if you score a 77W, an upcoming 78X or A350. I am also assuming from the pictures that old 767s and 772s when finally retro fitted won’t be bad either for very long nonstops. It’s just gonna take a lot of time.
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:19 am

Rdh3e wrote:
At ORD the construction took over a year. After opening they discovered that the uptake by customers far exceeded expectations so they will likely have to close it down and expand it at some point to alleviate the fact that it's always full. I think that experience caused a rethink and redesign of all the other hub clubs.

Or they can do what Air Canada did with their new lounge and make it PAID business class only. No Star Alliance, no upgrades nada. I'm starting to think that Air Canada went with their restrictive policy after seeing everything that went wrong with the Polaris Lounge at ORD.
 
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:43 pm

Image

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:13 pm

Where do I fit in :confused:
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jumbojet
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:41 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
The Polaris brand and experience were officially launched December 1st 2016. A year later, there is 1 Polaris lounge in operation (at ORD), and 15 planes have the full product (all 14 777-300ERs and 1 767-300ER). AA seems to be rolling out its new Flagship lounges at a faster pace, though its premium cabin product is all over the place depending on the plane you fly.

What are the issues with UA's slower roll out of Polaris?


Wow, that's ridiculous. 1 refurbished airplane after over a year? and its a 767 to boot? Badly played by United. After gushing about and hyping the Polaris product, all they can come up with is one modded 767 with the new Polaris product from head to tail in over a year; sad. By now, people go to United and see Polaris on the website when they go to book a business class ticket only to find out that its really not Polaris in the true sense. Has United fixed that by the way? Truly false advertising.
 
geoshina
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:48 pm

AA is being faster in renovating their lounges and planes. That's for sure.
Even the implementation of the PY looks likes is going at a rapid pace.
 
jph7291
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:30 pm

Any updates on the timeframe for IAH? I know they are working on bringing it to the existing United Club in Terminal E, supposed to encompass at least the top level from what I had heard.
 
catiii
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:32 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
The Polaris brand and experience were officially launched December 1st 2016. A year later, there is 1 Polaris lounge in operation (at ORD), and 15 planes have the full product (all 14 777-300ERs and 1 767-300ER). AA seems to be rolling out its new Flagship lounges at a faster pace, though its premium cabin product is all over the place depending on the plane you fly.

What are the issues with UA's slower roll out of Polaris?


Wow, that's ridiculous. 1 refurbished airplane after over a year? and its a 767 to boot? Badly played by United. After gushing about and hyping the Polaris product, all they can come up with is one modded 767 with the new Polaris product from head to tail in over a year; sad. By now, people go to United and see Polaris on the website when they go to book a business class ticket only to find out that its really not Polaris in the true sense. Has United fixed that by the way? Truly false advertising.


Ah yes, the usual poster bashing anyone but DL.

First off, it's 10% of the longhaul fleet that has the Polaris cabin hard product. Go do the math. And as noted above, it's a Zodiac issue. It took AA 5 years to do its retrofit. It took DL 6 years to its retrofit.

So if you're going to apply your usual manufactured outrage to anyone that isn't DL, apply it fairly and to DL as well.
 
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:00 pm

https://www.wsj.com/articles/your-new-b ... 1512570601

Here's a Wall Street Journal article from yesterday that talks about United's Polaris delays.

TL:DR
The article says that all airlines market new products way before it's rolled out to their fleet and it takes many years to fully deploy the product. The problem with UA's execution is that the airline appears to be behind their own roll out schedule.
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:00 pm

"Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?"

Because UA struggles with everything, despite having been in the airline business for 90 years.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the fact that they're rolling out new lounges and new Polaris class onboard seems like a pretty good indication that they intend to stick with their dated, hideous, and widely panned branding for the foreseeable future. As keesje pointed out, the color scheme in Polaris is godawful. If I wanted to see grey and blue walls three inches from my face I'd go to my office.
 
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ua900
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:54 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
The Polaris brand and experience were officially launched December 1st 2016. A year later, there is 1 Polaris lounge in operation (at ORD), and 15 planes have the full product (all 14 777-300ERs and 1 767-300ER). AA seems to be rolling out its new Flagship lounges at a faster pace, though its premium cabin product is all over the place depending on the plane you fly.

What are the issues with UA's slower roll out of Polaris?


Having flown on the "New Spirit of United" from Hong Kong to SFO in May and that lone remodeled 763 from EWR to HAM in September (out of all places) I have to say that they new suites are much nicer than say the current 772 product, but even nicer than the 787s. While somewhat cheap, I also appreciated the pajamas, something LH and most other carriers don't do in business class. Having said that, the glass globes in which their serve their sundaes apparently shattered easily when exposed to cold :banghead:, their entertainment systems were still subject to snafus, their amenity kits didn't become any better, they took away the plastic goblets and the piece of chocolate for pre-departure, and their food didn't become better.

Lots of little things that tell me that while are trying to move somewhere, they haven't gotten there yet. If I were working for UA or find myself in the CEOs shoes, I'd double or triple down on the resources to make a switch and work to become better. If LH can get a 5 star rating, I don't see why it should be out of reach of UA, in spite of all the naysayers who constantly diss UA.

As for the lounges, places like EWR C120 were a nightmare before the remodel, completely overcrowded, poor food choices, enjoy your hard earned stay. SFO was so good that people flooded Amex Centurion. If there's a message here for UA in regards to clubs it's that they need to up the price (or comp less) while also drastically improving the product (to Centurion levels) and my best guess is that they aren't able to do this as long as Sodexo style catering is in place. If Amex opens up in EWR, ORD or LAX UA clubs are toast, and that includes the Polaris club at ORD.
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jumbojet
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:15 pm

catiii wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
The Polaris brand and experience were officially launched December 1st 2016. A year later, there is 1 Polaris lounge in operation (at ORD), and 15 planes have the full product (all 14 777-300ERs and 1 767-300ER). AA seems to be rolling out its new Flagship lounges at a faster pace, though its premium cabin product is all over the place depending on the plane you fly.

What are the issues with UA's slower roll out of Polaris?


Wow, that's ridiculous. 1 refurbished airplane after over a year? and its a 767 to boot? Badly played by United. After gushing about and hyping the Polaris product, all they can come up with is one modded 767 with the new Polaris product from head to tail in over a year; sad. By now, people go to United and see Polaris on the website when they go to book a business class ticket only to find out that its really not Polaris in the true sense. Has United fixed that by the way? Truly false advertising.


Ah yes, the usual poster bashing anyone but DL.

First off, it's 10% of the longhaul fleet that has the Polaris cabin hard product. Go do the math. And as noted above, it's a Zodiac issue. It took AA 5 years to do its retrofit. It took DL 6 years to its retrofit.

So if you're going to apply your usual manufactured outrage to anyone that isn't DL, apply it fairly and to DL as well.


In fact, UA deserves to be bashed here. They failed in many areas with Polaris. UA is a very well known brand and its inexcusable to blame it on Zodiac. UA needs to make sure they are dealing with competency within a company and that its employees at that company can handle situations that might go astray. We are dealing with planes, planes that have been around for many, many decades. Its not like these mods have never been tried before with another airline and its not like this is a brand new product. Planes have been around for a very long time. Sure, things go bump in the night but when they do, it shouldn't set you back. My employer handles putting together all the parades that go up 5th avenue in NYC. Things go wrong all the time. Not only during the planning stages but during the actual events as well. Its how you handle these problems as they arise that gets you high marks with the millions of people that come out to watch these parades and watch them on TV. Same thing with UA. 1 modded plane in a year, a joke. Yet they brand the business/first cabin as Polaris. Imagine all the thousands of high value United flyers when they get on a United plane in 2017 and beyond and still find a very dated product yet expecting the Polaris product ACCOMPANIED by the Polaris seat?

Personally, I want to try United but I won't until I can be guaranteed direct aisle flat bed Polaris on ALL my international flights (with the exception of course if its on the 757). United is a very good company but they need to pick up their game with Polaris upgrades.

I cant even imagine, in todays times, being seated in a business class cabin like United has in a 2-3-2 configuration, or even in a 2-2-2 config. Why would I want to fly NYC to SIN like that? Even if I can do it with just one stop? I'd rather fly an extra stop and fly all direct aisle access.

And for the record, if you read my review on the DL A350 business class Suite, you would read in a few places where I gave DL low marks in certain areas.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:25 pm

And to add to the embarrassment, United was taking deliveries of brand new B789 aircraft just a few months ago with the same old dated 2-2-2 configuration. Its going to take years for those planes to wind up with Polaris seating. United should have done everything in its power to get Polaris seats installed in those planes from the factory. Contracts ban be broken, at the right price. And United should have paid whatever it took to get Polaris on those 789's. United fumbled here big time.
 
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:09 pm

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
"Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?"

Because UA struggles with everything, despite having been in the airline business for 90 years.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the fact that they're rolling out new lounges and new Polaris class onboard seems like a pretty good indication that they intend to stick with their dated, hideous, and widely panned branding for the foreseeable future. As keesje pointed out, the color scheme in Polaris is godawful. If I wanted to see grey and blue walls three inches from my face I'd go to my office.


Actually there are some significant changes on the way, to all aspects of the experience (inside and outside).
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United1
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:20 pm

Just a quick note there are 2 763s in service with the Polaris hard product and 3 more currently receiving the mod. I think there is more of a perception issue they are behind schedule than really being slow in the hard product roll out.

The lounge project is running late but as others have mentioned thats because they needed to stop and rethink it. The current lounge at ORD and the planned lounges are way to small. I would rather have them be late on the roll out than rush through it and have to redo all of it.
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jumbojet
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:26 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Actually there are some significant changes on the way, to all aspects of the experience (inside and outside).


Do you mean this? You’ll Get Even Less Space on Transatlantic Flights with United Next Year?

Basically, United sees high demand to Europe for S18 so they figure the best way to accommodate the demand is to cram even more people onto its domestic 777's and fly them internationally. Brilliant move, really just brilliant. :roll:

Starting next year, passengers on international flights are going to get an unwelcome surprise: even less room in economy on United planes. The airline made the decision that come January, a plane designed for domestic flights – the Boeing 777-200 with 336 seats in economy – will be used internationally.


https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/un ... idays.html
 
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airzim
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:55 pm

jumbojet wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Actually there are some significant changes on the way, to all aspects of the experience (inside and outside).


Do you mean this? You’ll Get Even Less Space on Transatlantic Flights with United Next Year?

Basically, United sees high demand to Europe for S18 so they figure the best way to accommodate the demand is to cram even more people onto its domestic 777's and fly them internationally. Brilliant move, really just brilliant. :roll:

Starting next year, passengers on international flights are going to get an unwelcome surprise: even less room in economy on United planes. The airline made the decision that come January, a plane designed for domestic flights – the Boeing 777-200 with 336 seats in economy – will be used internationally.


https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/un ... idays.html


Having a discussion with you is pointless.

However, what Matt seems to be implying is to expect a change in styling, possibly livery and aesthetics from the current scheme. Hence “inside and out”

As for the “domestic” 777. They all have lie flat in J. Just like the current J seat on sUA 777s. Economy is tighter, but no different from other Y configurations on AF, EK, AC, LX, some AA planes, etc. Its hardly uncompetitive with most other carriers.

The conventional wisdom is they needed this swap to ramp in the Polaris installs on the sUA fleet. Given they’ve stopped selling Polaris First.
 
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:31 pm

airzim wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Actually there are some significant changes on the way, to all aspects of the experience (inside and outside).


Do you mean this? You’ll Get Even Less Space on Transatlantic Flights with United Next Year?

Basically, United sees high demand to Europe for S18 so they figure the best way to accommodate the demand is to cram even more people onto its domestic 777's and fly them internationally. Brilliant move, really just brilliant. :roll:

Starting next year, passengers on international flights are going to get an unwelcome surprise: even less room in economy on United planes. The airline made the decision that come January, a plane designed for domestic flights – the Boeing 777-200 with 336 seats in economy – will be used internationally.


https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/un ... idays.html


Having a discussion with you is pointless.

However, what Matt seems to be implying is to expect a change in styling, possibly livery and aesthetics from the current scheme. Hence “inside and out”

As for the “domestic” 777. They all have lie flat in J. Just like the current J seat on sUA 777s. Economy is tighter, but no different from other Y configurations on AF, EK, AC, LX, some AA planes, etc. Its hardly uncompetitive with most other carriers.

The conventional wisdom is they needed this swap to ramp in the Polaris installs on the sUA fleet. Given they’ve stopped selling Polaris First.


Because I point out UA shortfalls? These are some significant issues UA is facing. Believe me when I say, I am chomping at the bit to try United but not the United of today. (It will make my life much easier to travel to Newark as opposed to JFK when I retire from where I live). So, United is going to fly domestic 777s overseas which means, and correct me if I am wrong, the Polaris (if you can call it that) cabin is in a mind numbing 2-4-2 configuration? UA is regressing, not advancing. I'll still travel to Newark but it will mean taking a double connection on DL until Polaris can guarantee me a flat bed direct aisle access seat on every widebody plane.

I just find it hard to believe that such a great airline, with a storied history and integral presence in the aviation community, still flies the majority of its international widebody fleet in a very dated cabin. UA should be the leader of the pack, at the forefront of the US3, not lagging behind in a dizzying manner.
 
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airzim
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:56 pm

jumbojet wrote:
airzim wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Do you mean this? You’ll Get Even Less Space on Transatlantic Flights with United Next Year?

Basically, United sees high demand to Europe for S18 so they figure the best way to accommodate the demand is to cram even more people onto its domestic 777's and fly them internationally. Brilliant move, really just brilliant. :roll:



https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/un ... idays.html


Having a discussion with you is pointless.

However, what Matt seems to be implying is to expect a change in styling, possibly livery and aesthetics from the current scheme. Hence “inside and out”

As for the “domestic” 777. They all have lie flat in J. Just like the current J seat on sUA 777s. Economy is tighter, but no different from other Y configurations on AF, EK, AC, LX, some AA planes, etc. Its hardly uncompetitive with most other carriers.

The conventional wisdom is they needed this swap to ramp in the Polaris installs on the sUA fleet. Given they’ve stopped selling Polaris First.


Because I point out UA shortfalls? These are some significant issues UA is facing. Believe me when I say, I am chomping at the bit to try United but not the United of today. (It will make my life much easier to travel to Newark as opposed to JFK when I retire from where I live). So, United is going to fly domestic 777s overseas which means, and correct me if I am wrong, the Polaris (if you can call it that) cabin is in a mind numbing 2-4-2 configuration? UA is regressing, not advancing. I'll still travel to Newark but it will mean taking a double connection on DL until Polaris can guarantee me a flat bed direct aisle access seat on every widebody plane.


That’s certainly your pergoative, but I think you’re being a tad dramatic.

It’s not a “domestic” 777. Those planes fly TPAC HNL/GUM/NRT rotations today. Some with stage lengths exceeded those of EWR TATL sectors for aforementioned cities.

That J seat, while not as competitive as some seats today, has been flying passengers for something like 20 years. Not terribly different from BA’s product, and not far off the mark from EK 777s with 2-3-2 angled flat configurations on ULH sectors. So spare the melodrama about how uncompetive UA is.

I’ll state is again, conventional wisdom dictates that UA needs to speed up the Polaris installs in the 3 cabin planes. That requires taking planes out of service. They can either reduce their schedules, or sub in aircraft in sectors with low J demand and high summer volumes. Seems a perfectly rational decision.

FYI, DL and AA can’t gurantee you lie flat with direct aisle access either.
 
irelayer
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:12 am

ua900 wrote:
As for the lounges, places like EWR C120 were a nightmare before the remodel, completely overcrowded, poor food choices, enjoy your hard earned stay. SFO was so good that people flooded Amex Centurion. If there's a message here for UA in regards to clubs it's that they need to up the price (or comp less) while also drastically improving the product (to Centurion levels) and my best guess is that they aren't able to do this as long as Sodexo style catering is in place. If Amex opens up in EWR, ORD or LAX UA clubs are toast, and that includes the Polaris club at ORD.


God the food choices at the UA Domestic Clubs are absolutely awful. It's like packaged crackers, cut up cheese, a soup, some veggies/dip..come on. Give me at least ONE hot meal choice and I'd be happy.

And their el cheapo booze options are really sad too. The amount of people who have to ask for beer, wine, or a drink and be told it'll cost them money indicates that people aren't used to paying for things in a lounge.

So embarrassing.

On a side note, I don't know if most people know this already, but if you are *G and find yourself at LAX with some time to kill, you can use the *A Lounge in TBIT which is about a 30 minute walk (airside) from T7. EVEN if you are flying domestic UA.

-IR
 
IPFreely
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:17 am

airzim wrote:
FYI, DL and AA can’t gurantee you lie flat with direct aisle access either.


Heck, DL can't even guarantee working lavatories for the duration of a flight.
 
JHwk
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:32 am

airzim wrote:
That J seat, while not as competitive as some seats today, has been flying passengers for something like 20 years. Not terribly different from BA’s product, and not far off the mark from EK 777s with 2-3-2 angled flat configurations on ULH sectors. So spare the melodrama about how uncompetive UA is.


I'll chime in. While I enjoy the "domestic" 777's more than being in J on a 739, I would be quite surprised if I was stuck on one as a substitution for a TPAC flight. Economy is going to suck either way, but when you purchase and "are promised" a lie-flat bed and end up huddled in the footrest mid-flight you aren't going to be happy.

Much more than GUM-HNL on the 77E is painful.
 
VC10er
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:35 am

United is improving- the point of this thread is that it’s going slowly.
The old seat was fine until you fly true Polaris on a 77W, then it’s tough going backwards. IMHO true Polaris on long haul 77Ws is a great ride, very comfortable and just the right amount of privacy so it’s not claustrophobic. It’s NOT like the picture of the cubicles above at all.
Yeah, they need new ice cream bowls, the paper cups they’ve had for months SUCK.
For me United was like an old, old friend that you basically love but need to forgive sometimes. The new UA is still figuring out who they are. But when all goes well she’s a good airline and if you are 1k or especially GS, they will be very good to you in times of trouble. They just did something really nice for me after making a small mistake in a reservation.
I prefer flying over the vacation itself! I go on business trips just so I can fly!
 
jumbojet
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:38 am

airzim wrote:
[
FYI, DL and AA can’t gurantee you lie flat with direct aisle access either.


If its a widebody aircraft then yes, they do. We all know that the US3's 757 premium equipped aircraft do not have direct aisle access.

At any rate, I look forward to the day when I can try United and get the FULL Polaris experience. Isn't that what this thread is all about?
 
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airzim
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:43 am

JHwk wrote:
airzim wrote:
That J seat, while not as competitive as some seats today, has been flying passengers for something like 20 years. Not terribly different from BA’s product, and not far off the mark from EK 777s with 2-3-2 angled flat configurations on ULH sectors. So spare the melodrama about how uncompetive UA is.


I'll chime in. While I enjoy the "domestic" 777's more than being in J on a 739, I would be quite surprised if I was stuck on one as a substitution for a TPAC flight. Economy is going to suck either way, but when you purchase and "are promised" a lie-flat bed and end up huddled in the footrest mid-flight you aren't going to be happy.

Much more than GUM-HNL on the 77E is painful.



I should clarify, these planes see IAH/ORD- HNL flights, in addition to HNL-GUM-NRT rotations. They would not, or have not, been subbed for other TPAC sectors.

For the record, these planes have Lie Flat seats. I don’t really understand the comment about being huddled in the footrest.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:45 am

VC10er wrote:
United is improving- the point of this thread is that it’s going slowly.
The old seat was fine until you fly true Polaris on a 77W, then it’s tough going backwards. .


Bingo.. which is why going from Delta to United for me doesn't make sense at this point. It would be like stepping into a time machine and going back 10 years. I believe DL started direct aisle access flat bed seating in 2010 and on April 22nd, 2014 they became the only U.S. carrier with full flat-bed seats featuring direct-aisle access on all widebody overseas flights. Once you have that level of flying, its tough to go back.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:46 am

IPFreely wrote:
airzim wrote:
FYI, DL and AA can’t gurantee you lie flat with direct aisle access either.


Heck, DL can't even guarantee working lavatories for the duration of a flight.


Yes, Delta had a broke toilet on a flight, can you just imagine the horror? :roll:
 
glbltrvlr
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:28 pm

Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:50 am

ua900 wrote:
Having said that, the glass globes in which their serve their sundaes apparently shattered easily when exposed to cold :banghead:, their entertainment systems were still subject to snafus, their amenity kits didn't become any better, they took away the plastic goblets and the piece of chocolate for pre-departure, and their food didn't become better.


You forgot to mention the plush white polar bears. :) I rather liked those...
 
VC10er
Posts: 2951
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:10 am

jumbojet wrote:
VC10er wrote:
United is improving- the point of this thread is that it’s going slowly.
The old seat was fine until you fly true Polaris on a 77W, then it’s tough going backwards. .


Bingo.. which is why going from Delta to United for me doesn't make sense at this point. It would be like stepping into a time machine and going back 10 years. I believe DL started direct aisle access flat bed seating in 2010 and on April 22nd, 2014 they became the only U.S. carrier with full flat-bed seats featuring direct-aisle access on all widebody overseas flights. Once you have that level of flying, its tough to go back.


I would advise that when United has its 78X in the fleet starting in November 2018, it will be United’s star aircraft. I can imagine that from EWR, a 78X to LHR will be awesome given the combination of a Polaris Lounge, Polaris seat on a 787. Then the A350s come which should also be great. But by that time a 772 doing ULH from EWR will be true Polaris fitted (I hope.)
The fact that all their 787s have new old seats that they will replace LAST, sucks. The size of UA’s 787 fleet is impressive and a missed opportunity to have old seats on them. But I bet they have no problem selling those seats.
(Jumbojet, try “Classified” next time!)
I prefer flying over the vacation itself! I go on business trips just so I can fly!
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:53 am

drdisque wrote:
Yes, the original concept was that they would carve the Polaris lounges out of the footprints of existing United Clubs (without substantially altering the number of United Clubs). Now that that's clear that won't work from a capacity and practicality standpoint, they're having to rethink it.


I'm really struggling to understand why overcrowding was a surprise. UA has the stats on every single visitor to their clubs, down to the airfare they paid and the seats they sat in. They also have the schedule data for every one of their flights. More importantly, they certainly should have had the analysis on what kind of crowds they'd see when flights get delayed.

That's what happened when I booked an Asian route through Chicago, just to check out the lounge earlier this year. Barely room to move when things were normal, and when my flight was delayed 4 hours, it was wall to wall.

Another problem on the regular lounge side. I won't go in the now smaller SFO lounge by G unless I'm there at 7AM. Any later and people are stacked in the aisles, much less every seat.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 419
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:21 am

catiii wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
The Polaris brand and experience were officially launched December 1st 2016. A year later, there is 1 Polaris lounge in operation (at ORD), and 15 planes have the full product (all 14 777-300ERs and 1 767-300ER). AA seems to be rolling out its new Flagship lounges at a faster pace, though its premium cabin product is all over the place depending on the plane you fly.

What are the issues with UA's slower roll out of Polaris?


Wow, that's ridiculous. 1 refurbished airplane after over a year? and its a 767 to boot? Badly played by United. After gushing about and hyping the Polaris product, all they can come up with is one modded 767 with the new Polaris product from head to tail in over a year; sad. By now, people go to United and see Polaris on the website when they go to book a business class ticket only to find out that its really not Polaris in the true sense. Has United fixed that by the way? Truly false advertising.


Ah yes, the usual poster bashing anyone but DL.

First off, it's 10% of the longhaul fleet that has the Polaris cabin hard product. Go do the math. And as noted above, it's a Zodiac issue. It took AA 5 years to do its retrofit. It took DL 6 years to its retrofit.

So if you're going to apply your usual manufactured outrage to anyone that isn't DL, apply it fairly and to DL as well.


Yeah, I wasn't bashing UA. I was asking a question. The one thing UA sort of does have here is that despite only 15 planes having the full Polaris offering, the business class seats across the rest of the 763, 764, 772, 752 fleets are a lot more consistent generally than what AA has in terms of seats which come from a variety of manufacturers for different reasons.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3197
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:32 am

jumbojet wrote:
Overly negative comment from a DL fanboy

You sure have a way of destroying any good dialogue with your sad diatribes.

airzim wrote:
It’s not a “domestic” 777. Those planes fly TPAC HNL/GUM/NRT rotations today. Some with stage lengths exceeded those of EWR TATL sectors for aforementioned cities.

Yep, these are great aircraft. Lie-flat seats, WIFI, PDE, quite attractive - 10 abreast seating in Y aside.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ORD-HNL,+ORD-CDG

ORD-HNL 4,244 mi
ORD-CDG 4,153 mi
 
VC10er
Posts: 2951
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Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:40 am

The forward/backward seats IMHO are EXTREMELY comfortable for sleeping. I like the look of them and the tv footrest wall- designed by Pentagram I believe. But they are a very tight squeeze and have ZERO storage. I had an awesome bag back then I used to hang from the coat hook for my stuff.

I wish they would take the new old seats off the 787s, put them on the 752s and put true Polaris on all those extremely long, very premium 787 routes.
I prefer flying over the vacation itself! I go on business trips just so I can fly!
 
United1
Posts: 3338
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:28 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
catiii wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Wow, that's ridiculous. 1 refurbished airplane after over a year? and its a 767 to boot? Badly played by United. After gushing about and hyping the Polaris product, all they can come up with is one modded 767 with the new Polaris product from head to tail in over a year; sad. By now, people go to United and see Polaris on the website when they go to book a business class ticket only to find out that its really not Polaris in the true sense. Has United fixed that by the way? Truly false advertising.


Ah yes, the usual poster bashing anyone but DL.

First off, it's 10% of the longhaul fleet that has the Polaris cabin hard product. Go do the math. And as noted above, it's a Zodiac issue. It took AA 5 years to do its retrofit. It took DL 6 years to its retrofit.

So if you're going to apply your usual manufactured outrage to anyone that isn't DL, apply it fairly and to DL as well.


Yeah, I wasn't bashing UA. I was asking a question. The one thing UA sort of does have here is that despite only 15 planes having the full Polaris offering, the business class seats across the rest of the 763, 764, 772, 752 fleets are a lot more consistent generally than what AA has in terms of seats which come from a variety of manufacturers for different reasons.


I don't think catiii was referring to you by that...rather jumbo.

16 aircraft actually with the hard product and 3 more in the shop getting Polarisized....Polaris is more than just the seat and while all of the majors take years to roll out the latest and greatest hard product across their fleets its worth noting the soft product is fleet wide and has been since day one. The lounge issue will sort itself out in the next couple of quarters as UA upsizes the lounges a bit.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:36 am

catiii wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
The Polaris brand and experience were officially launched December 1st 2016. A year later, there is 1 Polaris lounge in operation (at ORD), and 15 planes have the full product (all 14 777-300ERs and 1 767-300ER). AA seems to be rolling out its new Flagship lounges at a faster pace, though its premium cabin product is all over the place depending on the plane you fly.

What are the issues with UA's slower roll out of Polaris?


Wow, that's ridiculous. 1 refurbished airplane after over a year? and its a 767 to boot? Badly played by United. After gushing about and hyping the Polaris product, all they can come up with is one modded 767 with the new Polaris product from head to tail in over a year; sad. By now, people go to United and see Polaris on the website when they go to book a business class ticket only to find out that its really not Polaris in the true sense. Has United fixed that by the way? Truly false advertising.


Ah yes, the usual poster bashing anyone but DL.

First off, it's 10% of the longhaul fleet that has the Polaris cabin hard product. Go do the math. And as noted above, it's a Zodiac issue. It took AA 5 years to do its retrofit. It took DL 6 years to its retrofit.

So if you're going to apply your usual manufactured outrage to anyone that isn't DL, apply it fairly and to DL as well.

Yeah same BS from jumbojet everytime. Let's just ignore his post as he's not constructive to any discussions.

Back to OP, lounge works can take ages. It's not as easy as you would've thought. Just give you some idea, QF's lounge remodel started like 3-4 years ago and they still haven't refurbished their two main gateway's ones (MEL & SYD), and QF has a much smaller lounge network than UA has.

Michael
 
OB1504
Posts: 3210
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: Why Does UA Struggle With Polaris Lounge Roll Outs?

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:03 pm

airzim wrote:
FYI, DL and AA can’t gurantee you lie flat with direct aisle access either.


AA can. Last angled lie-flat 777 with 2-3-2 was retrofitted in September and the last angled lie-flat 767 with 2-2-2 was retired around the same time.

catiii wrote:
First off, it's 10% of the longhaul fleet that has the Polaris cabin hard product. Go do the math. And as noted above, it's a Zodiac issue. It took AA 5 years to do its retrofit. It took DL 6 years to its retrofit.

So if you're going to apply your usual manufactured outrage to anyone that isn't DL, apply it fairly and to DL as well.


5 years? AA started their 767 and 777 retrofits in 2014 and was done 3 years later. Granted, this was only possible by dropping Zodiac with less than half of the 777s done and going with the (superior) BE product for the rest.

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