Cessna airplanes are really small compared to the heavy metal landing at BOS. Does anyone know how ATC at BOS finds enough room to separate them from the bigger birds so they aren't thrown around in the wash or run over on approach?

They're just asked to keep their speed Up. I remember when doing my long cross country training , I decided to go from my class-D airspace at ILM to a class-C airspace at CLT. When i got there, it was the beginning of a big inbound bank. Luckily I was flying a C-172 RG which did around 120-125kts. When they had me turn for final, the told me to also keep my speed up because a 733 was behind me. So i stayed clean and fast as long as i could then slowed down enough to drop the gear. If memory served me correctly (i was 16 at the time 22years ago), I only landed with 10 degrees flaps then hit the brakes so i could take me closest turn-off. The tower before sending me to ground control thanked me and thought i was becoming a great pilot. It made my F'g night. But im sure thats what they have them do. Just keep your speed up and just get dirty later than usual.

They can also use one of the smaller runways for the cessna's.

WeatherPilot wrote:

Cessna airplanes are really small compared to the heavy metal landing at BOS. Does anyone know how ATC at BOS finds enough room to separate them from the bigger birds so they aren't thrown around in the wash or run over on approach?

I learned how to fly at KFLL because my father wanted me to be comfortable working around the big birds - ATC kept me on my toes and spaced us out fine! Looking back, I am glad that I learned how to fly at a major international airport! I utilized both 9L and 9R.

There are standards for proper seperation for all categories of aircraft. A C172 has just as much right to be safely sequenced into their airport of choice as a A380. In fact, in the ATC manual, it says “first come, first served”. While it may not necessarily work like that, the idea is that they are part of the system. Our air traffic controllers are professionals who at hundreds of approach controls do this every day. As a controller who’s been to four different facilities, it is challenging but most of us who do it enjoy it. And every facility has their unique procedures. We worked Cape Airs in Fort Myers before they left. You could count on them to make a two mile base and tuck them in a tight gap. A student C172, obviously not but that’s where the experience and talent of the controller just knows how to get it done. Without getting too complex, the little guys can be sequenced by using speed, altitude, and vectors.

rbavfan wrote:

They can also use one of the smaller runways for the cessna's.

the one they put in 10 years ago at the south end I presume they try to have cape use that one?

At SEA often times Cessnas and Pipers fly a left base pattern until the foot of the runway and then turn final.

Many, many, moons ago I flew a Shorts Skyvan - the only aircraft liable to take a bird strike from behind. It was stupidly slow, and our arrival into a major airport was around 20:00 every week-day - right in the middle of peak. We were always asked to 'keep the speed up' or, in the case of a new controller who wasn't familiar with the aircraft type, asked to keep '160 to 5NM', Problem was, that at around 145 knots it was shaking so much our retinas were about to detach from our eyeballs, and in an aircraft with no auto-anything, that would be a tad bothersome.

On my last flight in, we were given the standard question 'please state your airspeed'. I reported back 'Warp 5, but I can ask Mr. Scott if Warp 9 is possible'. A considerable amount of chuckles from other pilots were heard over the airwaves.

The good thing about the Skyvan was it's STOL ability: we could plunk it down right after the piano keys and take the first exit. That made the controllers happier.

Gawd, it was a slow, noisy, leaky, vibrating, cold and miserable aircraft - and I enjoyed every second of flying it

Deleted - double post

They use 33R or 32 quite often

B777LRF wrote:

Many, many, moons ago I flew a Shorts Skyvan - the only aircraft liable to take a bird strike from behind. It was stupidly slow, and our arrival into a major airport was around 20:00 every week-day - right in the middle of peak. We were always asked to 'keep the speed up' or, in the case of a new controller who wasn't familiar with the aircraft type, asked to keep '160 to 5NM', Problem was, that at around 145 knots it was shaking so much our retinas were about to detach from our eyeballs, and in an aircraft with no auto-anything, that would be a tad bothersome.

On my last flight in, we were given the standard question 'please state your airspeed'. I reported back 'Warp 5, but I can ask Mr. Scott if Warp 9 is possible'. A considerable amount of chuckles from other pilots were heard over the airwaves.

The good thing about the Skyvan was it's STOL ability: we could plunk it down right after the piano keys and take the first exit. That made the controllers happier.

Gawd, it was a slow, noisy, leaky, vibrating, cold and miserable aircraft - and I enjoyed every second of flying it

" B777LRF wrote:
Many, many, moons ago I flew a Shorts Skyvan - the only aircraft liable to take a bird strike from behind. It was stupidly slow, and our arrival into a major airport was around 20:00 every week-day - right in the middle of peak. We were always asked to 'keep the speed up' or, in the case of a new controller who wasn't familiar with the aircraft type, asked to keep '160 to 5NM', Problem was, that at around 145 knots it was shaking so much our retinas were about to detach from our eyeballs, and in an aircraft with no auto-anything, that would be a tad bothersome.

On my last flight in, we were given the standard question 'please state your airspeed'. I reported back 'Warp 5, but I can ask Mr. Scott if Warp 9 is possible'. A considerable amount of chuckles from other pilots were heard over the airwaves.

The good thing about the Skyvan was it's STOL ability: we could plunk it down right after the piano keys and take the first exit. That made the controllers happier.

Gawd, it was a slow, noisy, leaky, vibrating, cold and miserable aircraft - and I enjoyed every second of flying it "

Wish we had more stories like that one, I love reading them.

Shouldn’t be as big of a deal at BOS, but a much busier airport deals with something similar; ORD. All day long ORD has Grand Caravan service from several smaller cities in the region. Call sign is “Weber”. I’m not sure if the tracon puts them on a different runway, but these little Caravans come in when ORD is 3 parallel 20 miles deep!! Maybe someone here can chime in on how C90 deals with these guys.

B777LRF wrote:

Many, many, moons ago I flew a Shorts Skyvan

That is one "interesting" looking machine

Back in the 70's I flew a Cessna 172 into Toronto Pearson (YYZ).
Active runway was 33, then Canada's longest runway. I was instructed to orbit over the button of what was then 23L (between Terminal 2 and the Airport Expressway) to let a long line of arrivals get in.
Just as I was getting bored, I got cleared to land and urged to "expedite". So, with flaps ten, carb heat hot, and throttle back, I beelined for 33 and turned final (at a bit less than the schoolbook 500 AGL) over the piano keys.
Then came the arduous task of bleeding off energy. Another notch of flap and nose at the runway. Another notch of flap and steeper into the runway.I felt like the breath of God was blowing me back up into the sky! Getting more frantic, I finally decided I bled off enough airspeed not to shred the nose tire on touchdown and got the mains onto the tarmac.
Dump flaps and get on the binders, careen off onto the first high speed exit, reach the hold line to look back and see an Air Canada DC-9 flaring for touchdown.
First and last arrival as a private pilot single engine land at Pearson...

ClipperYankee wrote:

" B777LRF wrote:
Many, many, moons ago I flew a Shorts Skyvan - the only aircraft liable to take a bird strike from behind. It was stupidly slow, and our arrival into a major airport was around 20:00 every week-day - right in the middle of peak. We were always asked to 'keep the speed up' or, in the case of a new controller who wasn't familiar with the aircraft type, asked to keep '160 to 5NM', Problem was, that at around 145 knots it was shaking so much our retinas were about to detach from our eyeballs, and in an aircraft with no auto-anything, that would be a tad bothersome.

On my last flight in, we were given the standard question 'please state your airspeed'. I reported back 'Warp 5, but I can ask Mr. Scott if Warp 9 is possible'. A considerable amount of chuckles from other pilots were heard over the airwaves.

The good thing about the Skyvan was it's STOL ability: we could plunk it down right after the piano keys and take the first exit. That made the controllers happier.

Gawd, it was a slow, noisy, leaky, vibrating, cold and miserable aircraft - and I enjoyed every second of flying it "

Wish we had more stories like that one, I love reading them.

The only aircraft liable to take a bird strike from behind.... jajajjajaa... that was a great joke.

ATC can plan in advance to leave a little bit of extra space between two jet planes and get the Cessna in between and if the weather is good they use the short runways and problem solve, Also for the guys in the cessna is better to stay far from the wake turbulence of medium and heavy jets, so it's win-win.

INFINITI329 wrote:

That is one "interesting" looking machine

It is, it's like a big box with wings and little engines.

trnswrld wrote:

Shouldn’t be as big of a deal at BOS, but a much busier airport deals with something similar; ORD. All day long ORD has Grand Caravan service from several smaller cities in the region. Call sign is “Weber”. I’m not sure if the tracon puts them on a different runway, but these little Caravans come in when ORD is 3 parallel 20 miles deep!! Maybe someone here can chime in on how C90 deals with these guys.

We land and use the same approaches as most other aircraft into ORD. The exception is on downwind they'll keep us a little lower and usually down to 4,000 on the base turn. Tracon and Tower know the Weber's well and what to expect. Occasionally from the south we will be vectored over the field for 9L/27R if it's a little busy on the southern runways. The Van can do better speed the the C402 which helps for sure, but good planning by the excellent Controllers makes it work well.

I’ll try to run through a quick scenario. Obviously there a more factors but this should get you the general idea. I’m working final at ORD/ATL etc... We are doing ILS approaches. I build a hole and work the C172 to a ten mile base. Due to rules thats basically as close as where I can legally turn the C172 on the localizer. He has to be established outside the outer marker. Again, this is a simplistic view. The C172 is normally doing 120kts, which equates to two miles a minute. Therefore, he’s at the runway threshold in five minutes. The A320 that’s following him is doing 180, three miles a minute. I turned him to intercept at 20 miles since that’s where the final is out to. At the same five minutes when the C172 is touching down, then A320 has traveled 15 miles (3 miles times 5 minutes). He is at the outer marker/ five miles. Where I work we need 2.5 mile seperation on final so I actually have room to spare.

I remember when doing my night rating, I was sequenced in between a DC-10 ahead of me and a military 707 behind me... carrying Prime Minister Trudeau (the Elder... this was in 1981). This was at YOW. The ATC is seared on my mind: "Golf Echo Yankee, caution, wake turbulence, DC-10 just landing; no delay on that touch-and-go, military 707 4 miles back". I was flying a 172.

Beech

INFINITI329 wrote:

B777LRF wrote:

Many, many, moons ago I flew a Shorts Skyvan

That is one "interesting" looking machine

Call sign should have been Eagle-1, cause I have never actually seen a Winnebago w/ wings besides the movie Sapceballs before.

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:

At SEA often times Cessnas and Pipers fly a left base pattern until the foot of the runway and then turn final.

I've been in a plane doing this at PDX, too. They keep you away from the bigger traffic, then dive in for a final that's about 50 feet long. The Caravans and other cargo feeders often use the crosswind but that depends on weather.

I flew home to New England for Thanksgiving this year and did BOS-LEB-BOS trip with 9K. And got some cool video that I’ll link to when I get home from work tonight.

Although not mine, here someone else video that shows how they sneak them in with some nice sharp banking action: https://youtu.be/AuXH1htEhyc

I’ve had some funny slow moments. Potentially the worst was being told to keep the speed up on approach...for a helicopter behind. I don’t understand that one to this day, 140 on approach in a Bonanza =)

I guess this is gilding the lily, but bearing in mind that the entire air traffic control system in the United States is designed around the wants and needs of the airline industry, I am regularly amazed, and most very gratified, at the routinely excellent service we get from ATC. I am based at a very busy Class Delta field in the Dallas area (Addison), and I am in and out of the DFW Bravo every time I fly, and always receive the best of service; the same applies whether I am flying to Houston, Miami, Los Angeles, Norcal (San Francisco).

I have never been asked to do anything unreasonable by any controller, and I've always done what I can to mesh well in the system. My plane is fast enough that I can mesh with commercial traffic reasonably well, and I can keep my speed up until short final, then bleated off with gear and flaps.

The only time I'm really a little bit intimidated is when I land at a large airport, and get taxi instructions that are lengthy and complicated; even then, of course, I can ask the ground controller for progressive taxi instructions, and they will happily assist, but mainly pride has me wanting to do it without that accommodation.

To all of the controllers out there: thanks for the good service!

I was lucky enough to fly with a family friend in his Piper PA-46 with the JetPROP conversion from DuPage to Cincinnati a few years ago to watch the Bears attempt to play the Bengals. I remember on the final that the tower was letting him know that a Delta 767 coming in behind us and to vacate the runway as soon as possible. Made me a little nervous, but that was my first time flying into a "big airport" in a private plane. He also, knowing I had taken a few lessons before, asked if I wanted to take the controls for a while. I was nervous as hell and said no. We were around FL200 and flying a lot faster than I was used to from the little Beech that I flew at no more than 2000ft. Kind of wish I said yes, he eventually sold that plane.

Not having any great story myself. I personally wonder how often does Cape Air used that ultra short runway at BOS (15L/33R)

Granted, they still need to separate them from the crossing traffic on ground, but at least they don't have to fly the Cessna at 160kts.

zakuivcustom wrote:

Not having any great story myself. I personally wonder how often does Cape Air used that ultra short runway at BOS (15L/33R)

Granted, they still need to separate them from the crossing traffic on ground, but at least they don't have to fly the Cessna at 160kts.

When I worked at BOS, we put Dornier 228s and Dash 7s on 33R. Also the Air Canada Connector Dash 8s; the USAir Express Dash 8s wouldn't do it.

Well, here's how they work a Cessna 172 into ORD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ovGFhJCRU0

Short Brothers = Flying Soap Diah

It’s really not a big deal. The 402 gets standard seperation, and is practically as fast as the jets in that phase of flight. More than a couple times I actually ran jets over in that thing, because I could do 160 to a mile final, and the jets are all slowing down over the marker.

Add to that the 402 can use 33R, can depart from intersections, and is generally flown by pilots who have a massive amount of experince operating at Logan and have an outstanding operational rapport with ATC.

INFINITI329 wrote:

B777LRF wrote:

Many, many, moons ago I flew a Shorts Skyvan

That is one "interesting" looking machine

Ideal for group skydiving.

Years ago, my wife was flying into ORD on an Eagle Embrear 145. They had to abort the landing and go around. I looked on-line later. The Embrear was behind a single-engine aircraft before breaking off the approach. My guess is that the Embrear was closing fast, and the single-engine aircraft was not able to keep his speed up. My wife noted that she saw her old office building out the window, on Thorndale just east of I-290. It was just after that when the engines spooled up.

JT8DJET wrote:

Well, here's how they work a Cessna 172 into ORD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ovGFhJCRU0

"You'll be following a heavy B 747", whoa. When flying a C 172 near JFK I thought it was pretty cool to have tower let me know "your traffic is a heavy Concorde departing 13R, will be no factor".