Longest Airbus Neo routes by WOW AIR?

AirbusOnly · Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:34 am

Yesterday first time WOW AIR's A 321 NEO TF-SKY was flying NONSTOP KEF-MIA - a flight longer than 8 hours! The KEF-TLV route is currently served by
their A 320 NEO TF-NEO, also a route with a duration of more than 6 hours.
Are these currently the longest nonstop routes flown by this type of aircraft? Especially the KEF-MIA flight, is WOW AIR maxing out the range of their A 321 here?

MD80MKE · Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:50 am

S7 Airlines' Novosibirsk-Bankok flight can sometimes reach 8 hours, on A320 NEO.

VSMUT · Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:52 am

AirbusOnly wrote:
Yesterday first time WOW AIR's A 321 NEO TF-SKY was flying NONSTOP KEF-MIA - a flight longer than 8 hours! The KEF-TLV route is currently served by
their A 320 NEO TF-NEO, also a route with a duration of more than 6 hours.
Are these currently the longest nonstop routes flown by this type of aircraft? Especially the KEF-MIA flight, is WOW AIR maxing out the range of their A 321 here?

Wikipedia says the longest NEO route is WOW on the Tel Aviv route, 7 hours. Might need to be updated though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_f ... craft_type

arcticcruiser · Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:59 am

VSMUT wrote:
AirbusOnly wrote:
Yesterday first time WOW AIR's A 321 NEO TF-SKY was flying NONSTOP KEF-MIA - a flight longer than 8 hours! The KEF-TLV route is currently served by
their A 320 NEO TF-NEO, also a route with a duration of more than 6 hours.
Are these currently the longest nonstop routes flown by this type of aircraft? Especially the KEF-MIA flight, is WOW AIR maxing out the range of their A 321 here?

Wikipedia says the longest NEO route is WOW on the Tel Aviv route, 7 hours. Might need to be updated though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_f ... craft_type

Well, KEF-MIA is longer than KEF-TLV, but the A321 is not regularly scheduled for Miami. Must have been due to poor loads (it would have been payload restricted), or the A330 was inop, but it would still have been payload restricted. Otherwise the A321LR would not be required... WOW air is dropping MIA next spring. They claim it will be seasonal. We'll see.

Grandma (TF-GMA) still in LJU? Smells of something other than modifications...

AirbusOnly · Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:52 am

@ arcticcruiser: yes, "GMA" is still in LJU...wonder what Kind of "modifications" that are at a one year old aircraft

airbazar · Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:40 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
[
Well, KEF-MIA is longer than KEF-TLV, but the A321 is not regularly scheduled for Miami. Must have been due to poor loads (it would have been payload restricted), or the A330 was inop, but it would still have been payload restricted. Otherwise the A321LR would not be required...

It's definitely pushing the limits however the statement that the LR wouldn't be needed is a bit misleading. A standard A321NEO should have about 3,000nm range or about 8 hours of flying time. Possibly more if the aircraft is performing better than first advertised which is not unlikely. The LR extends that by about 500nm IIRC and will very much be needed for true TATL crossings. So depending on loads and winds, KEF-MIA is doable with an A321NEO.

eaa3 · Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:09 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
AirbusOnly wrote:
Yesterday first time WOW AIR's A 321 NEO TF-SKY was flying NONSTOP KEF-MIA - a flight longer than 8 hours! The KEF-TLV route is currently served by
their A 320 NEO TF-NEO, also a route with a duration of more than 6 hours.
Are these currently the longest nonstop routes flown by this type of aircraft? Especially the KEF-MIA flight, is WOW AIR maxing out the range of their A 321 here?

Wikipedia says the longest NEO route is WOW on the Tel Aviv route, 7 hours. Might need to be updated though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_f ... craft_type

Well, KEF-MIA is longer than KEF-TLV, but the A321 is not regularly scheduled for Miami. Must have been due to poor loads (it would have been payload restricted), or the A330 was inop, but it would still have been payload restricted. Otherwise the A321LR would not be required... WOW air is dropping MIA next spring. They claim it will be seasonal. We'll see.

Grandma (TF-GMA) still in LJU? Smells of something other than modifications...

Keep in mind that the entire WOW A321 fleet (apart from GMA and GPA) has 2 ACT’s (extra fuel tanks). It’s not a normal A321NEO that’s being operated to MIA or TLV. An A321LR will have up to 3 ACT’s but for most operators, they’ll have 2 ACT’s at most. This means that the WOW A321neo is effectively an A321LR range wise, apart from the fact that the takeoff weight is only 93.5 tons.

That brings us to why GMA is in LJU. It’s getting 2 ACT’s put in. You’ll notice that since delivery, GMA and GPA have been the only two A321 aircraft that are not used on North American routes. That will change with 2x ACT’s.

F27500 · Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:06 pm

Good lord .. 8 hours crammed in a high density A321 .. no thank you.

TC957 · Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:52 pm

F27500 wrote:
Good lord .. 8 hours crammed in a high density A321 .. no thank you.

Better get used to it pal, as this is the future of lo-cost air travel when the 321LR and 737Max's get delivered en masse in the years to come.

AirbusOnly · Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:08 pm

eaa3 wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Wikipedia says the longest NEO route is WOW on the Tel Aviv route, 7 hours. Might need to be updated though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_f ... craft_type

Well, KEF-MIA is longer than KEF-TLV, but the A321 is not regularly scheduled for Miami. Must have been due to poor loads (it would have been payload restricted), or the A330 was inop, but it would still have been payload restricted. Otherwise the A321LR would not be required... WOW air is dropping MIA next spring. They claim it will be seasonal. We'll see.

Grandma (TF-GMA) still in LJU? Smells of something other than modifications...

Keep in mind that the entire WOW A321 fleet (apart from GMA and GPA) has 2 ACT’s (extra fuel tanks). It’s not a normal A321NEO that’s being operated to MIA or TLV. An A321LR will have up to 3 ACT’s but for most operators, they’ll have 2 ACT’s at most. This means that the WOW A321neo is effectively an A321LR range wise, apart from the fact that the takeoff weight is only 93.5 tons.

That brings us to why GMA is in LJU. It’s getting 2 ACT’s put in. You’ll notice that since delivery, GMA and GPA have been the only two A321 aircraft that are not used on North American routes. That will change with 2x ACT’s.

Eaaa3 thank you for your very interesting explanations and back-ground to GMA. That makes good sense to me!

Polot · Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:23 pm

eaa3 wrote:
Keep in mind that the entire WOW A321 fleet (apart from GMA and GPA) has 2 ACT’s (extra fuel tanks). It’s not a normal A321NEO that’s being operated to MIA or TLV. An A321LR will have up to 3 ACT’s but for most operators, they’ll have 2 ACT’s at most. This means that the WOW A321neo is effectively an A321LR range wise, apart from the fact that the takeoff weight is only 93.5 tons.

2 ACTs are pretty common in the A321(ceo and neo). A A321neo with 2 ACTs does not effectively have A321LR range...if it did then Airbus wouldn't have had to add another ACT with a corresponding bump in MTOW to accommodate the extra fuel in the first place. Most A321LR operators, assuming they are using the plane to its full range potential, will have 3 ACTs in them.

Jshank83 · Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:09 pm

VSMUT wrote:
AirbusOnly wrote:
Yesterday first time WOW AIR's A 321 NEO TF-SKY was flying NONSTOP KEF-MIA - a flight longer than 8 hours! The KEF-TLV route is currently served by
their A 320 NEO TF-NEO, also a route with a duration of more than 6 hours.
Are these currently the longest nonstop routes flown by this type of aircraft? Especially the KEF-MIA flight, is WOW AIR maxing out the range of their A 321 here?

Wikipedia says the longest NEO route is WOW on the Tel Aviv route, 7 hours. Might need to be updated though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_f ... craft_type

Some of those are really out of date. I updated one a couple days ago for a route that has been flying for at least a year. Maybe 2+

448205 · Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:58 pm

Are their NEO's ETOPS? I was under the impression that they still don't have approval.

AirbusOnly · Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:02 pm

Today again WOW Air send their A 321 neo TF-SKY KEF-MIA, while all their three A 330 are on ground in KEF...WOW Air just ticking over?

448205 · Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:44 am

AirbusOnly wrote:
Today again WOW Air send their A 321 neo TF-SKY KEF-MIA, while all their three A 330 are on ground in KEF...WOW Air just ticking over?

What does "ticking over" mean?

eaa3 · Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:24 am

AirbusOnly wrote:
Today again WOW Air send their A 321 neo TF-SKY KEF-MIA, while all their three A 330 are on ground in KEF...WOW Air just ticking over?

You seem to assume that WOW is bankrupt quite often, and never for the same reasons. Basically just whatever happens, it’s the end.

717atOGG · Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:06 am

I think the longest A321NEO routes by WOW are MIA and TLV. Since MIA is being dropped next spring and STL is starting soon after, I'd bet that the NEO will be used on STL and TLV from then on.

astuteman · Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:12 am

airbazar wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
[
Well, KEF-MIA is longer than KEF-TLV, but the A321 is not regularly scheduled for Miami. Must have been due to poor loads (it would have been payload restricted), or the A330 was inop, but it would still have been payload restricted. Otherwise the A321LR would not be required...

It's definitely pushing the limits however the statement that the LR wouldn't be needed is a bit misleading. A standard A321NEO should have about 3,000nm range or about 8 hours of flying time. Possibly more if the aircraft is performing better than first advertised which is not unlikely. The LR extends that by about 500nm IIRC and will very much be needed for true TATL crossings. So depending on loads and winds, KEF-MIA is doable with an A321NEO.

The break points on the R/P chart for a 93.5t A321NEO are:-

2 750Nm with 24.5t payload - no ACT
3 200nm with 22t payload - 1 ACT
which implies
3 650Nm with 19.5t payload - 2 ACT

KEF-MIA being 3 184Nm still air would suggest that 2 ACT are a necessity for this flight, particularly westbound.

WOW air seem to have 2 configs - 200 seats and 220 seats
The 200 seat config would appear to fit the 2 x ACT R/P chart break point fairly closely.

I would suspect that the 220 seat config would need to block seats.

Rgds

airbazar · Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:55 pm

astuteman wrote:
airbazar wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
[
Well, KEF-MIA is longer than KEF-TLV, but the A321 is not regularly scheduled for Miami. Must have been due to poor loads (it would have been payload restricted), or the A330 was inop, but it would still have been payload restricted. Otherwise the A321LR would not be required...

It's definitely pushing the limits however the statement that the LR wouldn't be needed is a bit misleading. A standard A321NEO should have about 3,000nm range or about 8 hours of flying time. Possibly more if the aircraft is performing better than first advertised which is not unlikely. The LR extends that by about 500nm IIRC and will very much be needed for true TATL crossings. So depending on loads and winds, KEF-MIA is doable with an A321NEO.

The break points on the R/P chart for a 93.5t A321NEO are:-

2 750Nm with 24.5t payload - no ACT
3 200nm with 22t payload - 1 ACT
which implies
3 650Nm with 19.5t payload - 2 ACT

KEF-MIA being 3 184Nm still air would suggest that 2 ACT are a necessity for this flight, particularly westbound.

WOW air seem to have 2 configs - 200 seats and 220 seats
The 200 seat config would appear to fit the 2 x ACT R/P chart break point fairly closely.

I would suspect that the 220 seat config would need to block seats.

Rgds

Thank you. This really makes me chuckle. All of those people who were so adamant that the A321NEO could never match the 752 and here we are, with a first generation A321NEO already matching the 752 for range, on westbound, Winter TATL routes. Imagine what the LR can do.

Pacific · Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:23 pm

IIRC, the longest TATL 757 routes were in the region of 3,500nm to Germany. These tended to need occasional fuel stops westbound in winter.

Would expect to see a similarly low-density A321LR with 3x ACTs beat that in the future!

Balerit · Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:49 pm

F27500 wrote:
Good lord .. 8 hours crammed in a high density A321 .. no thank you.

A second class ride is better than a first class walk. :lol:

airbazar · Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:00 pm

Pacific wrote:
IIRC, the longest TATL 757 routes were in the region of 3,500nm to Germany. These tended to need occasional fuel stops westbound in winter.

Would expect to see a similarly low-density A321LR with 3x ACTs beat that in the future!

IIRC, the longest 752 route was TXL-EWR at 3,459 nm gc, but with only 169 seats, and it needed the occasional fuel stop.
KEF-MIA at 3,184 is not as long but the plane has more seats. A "vanilla" A321NEO with 169 seats should get pretty close to the 752's range and the LR should have no problem beating that range.

Pacific · Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:14 pm

That's impressive! I didn't realise that 752 had so little seats, was under the impression it had 180ish!

As Leahy says, Airbus owns the MoM space now!

OB1504 · Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:02 am

It’s a shame to hear that WOW will be dropping MIA, since they’ve been bringing some welcome downward pressure on airfares across the Atlantic.

RalXWB · Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:39 am

Good to hear that the 321 does what it was intended for contrary to the ever so often repeated Anet-myth!

zolagola · Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:23 pm

WOW Air takes it a step further: TF-SKY flew KEF-LAX yesterday. 4,314nm and 8h 40mins. If that´s the future of flying, I´ll rather walk.

AaronPGH · Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:27 pm

F27500 wrote:
Good lord .. 8 hours crammed in a high density A321 .. no thank you.

You may not like it, but it has broken open European travel to many Americans on a much more regular basis, who previously may have only been there once or twice. In Pittsburgh, I have friends flying WW almost every week it seems now. It is enabling artists and young people to do things we couldn't do previously because of costs, which is great. Ultimately, these things will bring the world much closer together. It's not for everyone and it doesn't need to be.

rlwynn · Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:38 pm

DTW-DUS is 3500miles. Flew on NW 757s many times between the two.

PITingres · Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:59 pm

zolagola wrote:
WOW Air takes it a step further: TF-SKY flew KEF-LAX yesterday. 4,314nm and 8h 40mins. If that´s the future of flying, I´ll rather walk.

The seat is no smaller than any economy widebody seat, and is probably bigger than some (eg 777w in sardine mode).

If the vast unusable spaces over your head in a 777 makes a difference to you, that's your privilege, but it's all in your head...

I've flown WOW twice now from PIT, and the KEF stop is actually nice -- it breaks up the trip and I feel better at the other end. The seating is nothing special but I've sat in far worse in widebodies, especially those with PTV crap taking up my underseat space.

mat66 · Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:13 pm

zolagola wrote:
WOW Air takes it a step further: TF-SKY flew KEF-LAX yesterday. 4,314nm and 8h 40mins. If that´s the future of flying, I´ll rather walk.

Sorry, you got your miles wrong. It is 3750 nm or 4314 miles or 6942km. Still astounding distance.
I wish everyone on this forum would actually use nm for distance flown. A lot less confusion. So thanks for that.

Edit : as well as kg/t for weight, of course.

beertrucker · Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:39 pm

Rememeber PAL is planning Manila to Sydney Australia too. But with an LR I think I would have to go back and look at all that i am trying to remember. That is being said it will be an 8 hour Plus flight.

neomax · Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:46 pm

zolagola wrote:
WOW Air takes it a step further: TF-SKY flew KEF-LAX yesterday. 4,314nm and 8h 40mins. If that´s the future of flying, I´ll rather walk.

The day will come when narrowbodies will be flying 10 hours...YIKES!

arcticcruiser · Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:47 pm

A WW cabin crew told me the MIA flights on the A321neo have been capped at 150 pax. The LAX flight will have carried even less... hardly profitable in either case.

zolagola · Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:04 pm

PITingres wrote:
The seat is no smaller than any economy widebody seat, and is probably bigger than some (eg 777w in sardine mode). If the vast unusable spaces over your head in a 777 makes a difference to you, that's your privilege, but it's all in your head...

I´ll tell you what makes a difference to me: how many lavatories do you fit in a A321 versus a A330? If WOW Air has 3 (not sure, some seatmaps only show 2) in the A321neo (the A330 has 9), that´s a lot of people queuing in a single aisle plane during those 9 hours. A lot of movement in the plane, can´t really be comfortable for anyone.

mat66 wrote:
Sorry, you got your miles wrong. It is 3750 nm or 4314 miles or 6942km. Still astounding distance.

[/quote]

Indeed, my bad. Was just looking at the figure GCMap did spit out and typing nm out of habit.

airbazar · Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:20 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
A WW cabin crew told me the MIA flights on the A321neo have been capped at 150 pax. The LAX flight will have carried even less... hardly profitable in either case.

I don't think we can reach a conclusion on profitability considering it is late January. I have flown on my flight with less than 50% LF,
If they can fill the plane during peak season with decent fares, even capped at 150 seats, it doesn't really matter what the LF is right now.

Swadian · Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:27 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
AirbusOnly wrote:
Yesterday first time WOW AIR's A 321 NEO TF-SKY was flying NONSTOP KEF-MIA - a flight longer than 8 hours! The KEF-TLV route is currently served by
their A 320 NEO TF-NEO, also a route with a duration of more than 6 hours.
Are these currently the longest nonstop routes flown by this type of aircraft? Especially the KEF-MIA flight, is WOW AIR maxing out the range of their A 321 here?

Wikipedia says the longest NEO route is WOW on the Tel Aviv route, 7 hours. Might need to be updated though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_f ... craft_type

Well, KEF-MIA is longer than KEF-TLV, but the A321 is not regularly scheduled for Miami. Must have been due to poor loads (it would have been payload restricted), or the A330 was inop, but it would still have been payload restricted. Otherwise the A321LR would not be required... WOW air is dropping MIA next spring. They claim it will be seasonal. We'll see.

Grandma (TF-GMA) still in LJU? Smells of something other than modifications...

S7's OVB-BKK, while not necessarily the longest in terms of great circle distance, often detours in China and ends up being the longest regular A321ceo or A320neo route by actual distance flown / time in air.

neomax wrote:
zolagola wrote:
WOW Air takes it a step further: TF-SKY flew KEF-LAX yesterday. 4,314nm and 8h 40mins. If that´s the future of flying, I´ll rather walk.

The day will come when narrowbodies will be flying 10 hours...YIKES!

Yeah, you would complain about flying on the DC-8-62 with 38" of pitch of Economy and 5200nm range?

AirbusOnly · Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:54 pm

TF-SKY is now on her long way back to Iceland as WW 174 LAX-KEF
https://www.flightradar24.com/WOW174/1038f5fb

arcticcruiser · Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:21 pm

Initial cruise at FL340. What is the initial FL when taking off at MTOW for the A321neo.

itchief · Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:44 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Are their NEO's ETOPS? I was under the impression that they still don't have approval.

Does a flight need to be ETOPS certified from KEF to the US? Are the flight that far from a qualified landing strip? I am asking because someone on this site should know.

Elbowroom · Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:00 am

Interesting... the outbound flight WW173 took 8h40 KEF-LAX on the A321neo. That looks to be consistent with the A330 flight times on other days: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ww173

The return flight is nearly home, taking about 8h15, https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ww174
Again this doesn't seem out of line with the A330 on other days.

I would have thought the A321 would have taken longer...

aemoreira1981 · Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:01 am

Curious: don't most WOW A321s (ceo and neo) have extra tanks on them?

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