I would like to hear peoples thoughts on the future of BA CityFlyer operations at London City Airport now that we know the airport is undergoing a £400 million redevelopment that will include seven additional parking stands that will be large enough for Bombardier C-Series aircraft and a full length parallel taxi-way that will greatly improve the flow of ground operations at the airport.

I know In the past that Willie Walsh stated that BA was not interested in the Bombardier C-Series aircraft, but now that Airbus have bought a majority stake in the programme do you think this could change IAG’s attitudes towards the aircraft? To me it seems like a perfect fit for BA CityFlyer. They could use the C-Series and Embraers at London City Airport and deploy the Embraers to expand the regional services they have launched in recent years (which I understand was to get better utilisation out of the aircraft whilst city is closed for half the weekend). It is my understanding that BA have been surprised by the success of the regional demand, and with BA CityFlyer’s lower cost structure i’m sure they could expand regional services profitably.

I’m secretly hoping the recently announced order from Bombardier for 31 C-Series aircraft to an unnamed European airline is IAG for aircraft for BACF and possible one of the other IAG airlines.

What are people’s thoughts?

Monarch's demise and the reduction of Norwegian's short-haul leisure routes means to me BA's use of E190 on weekend services is bound to do well. They should have done this years ago. I bet basing a couple of E190's at SOU on summer weekends will do really well.
Re getting C-series, adding the complexity of another type when the E190's fit the LCY ops so well isn't what BA need in my view. OK, they can do the JFK run and add other mid-hauls, but not sure BA wants to expand that much at LCY even with all the new stands coming at LCY.

They are adding another E190 to the weekend base at MAN next summer as well as an away based Florence route. Takes MAN to 3 ‘based’ aircraft. One is based Thu-Sun and the other 2 are Sat/Sun.

I would expect BACF to expand to markets such as MAD, FCO, MUC, CPH, ARN, LUX, WAW or VIE when additional aircraft are secured. Some of them have been tried before but I guess bigger return can be made elsewhere.

The interesting one is LUX which is served twice daily from LHR which is rather poor given Luxair serves LCY up to 6x daily. They should follow steps of RTM and ORY and move the route to LCY and increase it to 5x times a day. RTM is a great success having driven out Cityjet out of the market. It started off as a twice daily service from LHR after BA bought bmi and now it is flown up to 7x daily (!).

User001 wrote:

They are adding another E190 to the weekend base at MAN next summer as well as an away based Florence route. Takes MAN to 3 ‘based’ aircraft. One is based Thu-Sun and the other 2 are Sat/Sun.

It’s interesting they are adding an additional aircraft, that would seem to suggest that the regional programme is expanding (albeit slowly).

Do we know if there are any other future aircraft coming? More Embraers? I believe IAG/BA still have options on the books for 7 more from Embraer if I’m not mistaken?

BA are also advertising lots of vacancies for BACF positions on the BA Careers website which could suggest plans for expansion.

BA CityFlyer seems to be doing very well at LCY.
I wonder why they started with the smaller Embraer 170, they only have six in the fleet, maybe they will upgrade them to Embraer 190’s ?

The C-Series offers a lot of possibilities to start new routes from LCY to the Middle East, Russia and the US East Coast.. not sure that BA is that interested in this business.. although they are still flying the Open Skies 757 from Paris to New York.. and G-EUNA is doing the LCY to JFK run via Shannon.

There is also Odessy Airlines that is supposedly going to operate 10 C-Series out of LCY.. http://www.flyody.com/home.aspx .. Not sure if this is ever going to happen..

CFE have hit a natural plateau in their growth at LCY. Moving too much out of LHR will hit connections which LHR long haul depends on. Moving LHR-ORY to LCY has hacked off quite a few.
Also LCY-MAD was dropped as were all the Scandinavian routes, leaving core P2P higher yield business destinations as well as high end sun routes. Also the Crossrail link from Canary Wharf to Heathrow is likely to put a dent in a few routes ex LCY.

With the weekend regional routes paying off and the MAN 'base' expanding, I can see an eventual full week base being implemented.

One of the MAN based already stays Thu-Sun, so is pretty much MAN based as much time as it is LCY based anyway. Expansion of the base to a week long one means the existing routes can have a 'decent' schedule. The numbers using the flights are decent enough considering the majority are weekly flights, imagine what a 2-3 weekly flight could do!

Are all the Embraers fully committed to weekend regional flying during the summer peak or are some still parked up at LCY during that period?

If there are more aircraft available for weekend flying BACF could as another poster has pointed out operate from SOU as the local market could easily support it.

From what I can gather:

3 E190 based at MAN for the weekend base
1 at FLR that operates BRS and MAN flights (operated BHX in S17 but won't in S18)
1 at AGP that operates BRS and BHX flights
1 at IBZ that operates BRS and BHX flights
1 at PMI that operates BRS and BHX flights
1 at EDI that operates IBZ and charters
2 at GLA which operate charters
1 at DUB that doesn't seem to operate anywhere (operates IBZ in S17 but won't in S18)
3(?) at STN to operate their weekend base.

That's 14 aircraft.

I would imagine the other 6 need to remain at LCY to operate the last wave of inbounds and first wave of out bounds around the closure.

Might have the numbers slightly wrong but going off historical data from what operated in S17 and future S18 known routes.

User001 wrote:

From what I can gather:

3 E190 based at MAN for the weekend base
1 at FLR that operates BRS and MAN flights (operated BHX in S17 but won't in S18)
1 at AGP that operates BRS and BHX flights
1 at ALC that operates BRS and BHX flights
1 at PMI that operates BRS and BHX flights
1 at EDI that operates IBZ and charters
2 at GLA which operate charters
1 at DUB that doesn't seem to operate anywhere (operates IBZ in S17 but won't in S18)
3(?) at STN to operate their weekend base.

That's 14 aircraft.

I would imagine the other 6 need to remain at STN to operate the last wave of inbounds and first wave of out bounds around the closure.

Might have the numbers slightly wrong but going off historical data from what operated in S17 and future S18 known routes.

I don't think there is any based aircraft in ALC but IBZ.
Plus GLA gets up to 3 a/c in the summer, and BACF still has a base at EDI which operates PMI/IBZ and a lot of weekend charters, plus HUY.

2x E190's are joining the fleet in 2018, first once starts operating in the first week of January 2018.

With the works of the new Taxiway starting soon, will that impact the flow of arrivals/departures to/from city? And hence a pause on LCY expansion?

Considering how many Russian’s are now living in London, could the E190 be used on flights to Moscow?

BA have expanded considerably at LCY over the last few years, what other routes might be on the cards?

santos wrote:

User001 wrote:

From what I can gather:

3 E190 based at MAN for the weekend base
1 at FLR that operates BRS and MAN flights (operated BHX in S17 but won't in S18)
1 at AGP that operates BRS and BHX flights
1 at ALC that operates BRS and BHX flights
1 at PMI that operates BRS and BHX flights
1 at EDI that operates IBZ and charters
2 at GLA which operate charters
1 at DUB that doesn't seem to operate anywhere (operates IBZ in S17 but won't in S18)
3(?) at STN to operate their weekend base.

That's 14 aircraft.

I would imagine the other 6 need to remain at STN to operate the last wave of inbounds and first wave of out bounds around the closure.

Might have the numbers slightly wrong but going off historical data from what operated in S17 and future S18 known routes.

I don't think there is any based aircraft in ALC but IBZ.
Plus GLA gets up to 3 a/c in the summer, and BACF still has a base at EDI which operates PMI/IBZ and a lot of weekend charters, plus HUY.

2x E190's are joining the fleet in 2018, first once starts operating in the first week of January 2018.

With the works of the new Taxiway starting soon, will that impact the flow of arrivals/departures to/from city? And hence a pause on LCY expansion?

You mention 2 x E190’s entering the fleet, are these new aircraft/leased/second hand? Good news that they have already got some new aircraft coming, expansion must be on the cards!

Not sure the 2 ERJs are still coming, they picked up the recent 2nd hand examples instead.

You mention 2 x E190’s entering the fleet, are these new aircraft/leased/second hand? Good news that they have already got some new aircraft coming, expansion must be on the cards![/quote]


From what i´ve read online G-LCYY will join the fleet in January, not sure where the second EMB190 is coming from or it's reg.

flyingphil wrote:

BA CityFlyer seems to be doing very well at LCY.
I wonder why they started with the smaller Embraer 170, they only have six in the fleet, maybe they will upgrade them to Embraer 190’s ?

The C-Series offers a lot of possibilities to start new routes from LCY to the Middle East, Russia and the US East Coast.. not sure that BA is that interested in this business.. although they are still flying the Open Skies 757 from Paris to New York.. and G-EUNA is doing the LCY to JFK run via Shannon.

There is also Odessy Airlines that is supposedly going to operate 10 C-Series out of LCY.. http://www.flyody.com/home.aspx .. Not sure if this is ever going to happen..

I did read somewhere they can't operate the E175 due to having an issue, is it steep approach approved? the E195 as we know is too long for LCY. But there's definetly a technical reason BA selected the 170, I read it somewhere. Perhaps someone can shed some light?

The E175 definitely does the LCY steep 5.5 degree glidepath.. its quite exciting too.. the spoilers partially deploy on approach.

I would have thought it may be worth BACF swapping the small E175 fleet for more E190’s.

Arion640 wrote:

flyingphil wrote:

BA CityFlyer seems to be doing very well at LCY.
I wonder why they started with the smaller Embraer 170, they only have six in the fleet, maybe they will upgrade them to Embraer 190’s ?

The C-Series offers a lot of possibilities to start new routes from LCY to the Middle East, Russia and the US East Coast.. not sure that BA is that interested in this business.. although they are still flying the Open Skies 757 from Paris to New York.. and G-EUNA is doing the LCY to JFK run via Shannon.

There is also Odessy Airlines that is supposedly going to operate 10 C-Series out of LCY.. http://www.flyody.com/home.aspx .. Not sure if this is ever going to happen..

I did read somewhere they can't operate the E175 due to having an issue, is it steep approach approved? the E195 as we know is too long for LCY. But there's definetly a technical reason BA selected the 170, I read it somewhere. Perhaps someone can shed some light?

I believe it's the engine-out requirements at LCY with the high obstacles and short runway. That's why the smaller of the 2 families is used (E170 and E190)

flyingphil wrote:

The E175 definitely does the LCY steep 5.5 degree glidepath.. its quite exciting too.. the spoilers partially deploy on approach.

I would have thought it may be worth BACF swapping the small E175 fleet for more E190’s.

Just a small correction. BA has no E175s, they're E170s.
Which airline uses the E175 at LCY? I've never seen one there, and like other posters thought the E175 (unlike the sister E170) had never received certification for LCY ops.

Andy33 wrote:

flyingphil wrote:

The E175 definitely does the LCY steep 5.5 degree glidepath.. its quite exciting too.. the spoilers partially deploy on approach.

I would have thought it may be worth BACF swapping the small E175 fleet for more E190’s.

Just a small correction. BA has no E175s, they're E170s.
Which airline uses the E175 at LCY? I've never seen one there, and like other posters thought the E175 (unlike the sister E170) had never received certification for LCY ops.

I believe you are correct. This link (albeit outdated) only lists the 170 and 190, not the 175

https://www.londoncityairport.com/downl ... 0fv_sm.pdf

The E175 can not operate in to LCY. I understand it is something to do with the length of fuselage behind the landing gear making a tail strike likely on the E175 and E195 but this isn't an issue on the E170 or E190.

BACF is scope limited to 99 seats so an E195 would be overkill.

santos wrote:

You mention 2 x E190’s entering the fleet, are these new aircraft/leased/second hand? Good news that they have already got some new aircraft coming, expansion must be on the cards!

From what i´ve read online G-LCYY will join the fleet in January, not sure where the second EMB190 is coming from or it's reg.

The 2 that are joining that fleet are as follows:

19000189 - OY-ERA - ex-Azul - currently in Billund
19000404 - VH-NJA - ex-Augsburg Airways - currently in Australia (think it's Brisbane, but could be wrong)

Source: Insider knowledge.

Sorry, I meant to type E170 .. I flown on them a few times, much prefer them to CityJets Avros and FlyBe's Dash8's.

This is site is good for seeing how BA uses the Embraers when LCY is closed at the weekends http://thebasource.com/

BAorNoWay wrote:

I would like to hear peoples thoughts on the future of BA CityFlyer operations at London City Airport now that we know the airport is undergoing a £400 million redevelopment that will include seven additional parking stands that will be large enough for Bombardier C-Series aircraft and a full length parallel taxi-way that will greatly improve the flow of ground operations at the airport........

Before looking too deep at operations from LCY, I believe there is still some considerable doubt about the whole future of LCY's existence at all to debate.

Canary Wharf will soon be connected to very quick and frequent rail services direct to LHR, and its interesting that TfL refuses to give planning permission for a new privately funded 'Crossrail' station @ LCY itself.

We currently have a Labour Mayor, and if a Labour Government follows; it is reasonable to foresee Mayor Khan targeting LCY for redeveloping into desperately needed housing.

Yes; LCY is a more than useful airport; but it is also a very valuable piece of well connected real estate.

It would be interesting to hear from London based contributors reflecting on the future of LCY as an airport at all........

It'd be nice to have a LCY-HEL option to connect to destinations in the Baltic and Russia, either operated by BA or Finnair.

I don't think there is an imminent threat to LCY's existence anymore.
The previous Mayor, Boris Johnson, was not a fan of LCY as he had his own ideas about his fantasy Boris Island new airport out in the Thames Estuary.. he blocked the expansion of the airport.
The current London Mayor approved the expansion of LCY and the local Mayor of Newham is supportive as it provides jobs in what was a fairly run down area of London.

I don't think Crossrail to LHR will make any difference to LCY's short haul services.
LCY is well placed for the financial sector based in the City of London and Canary Wharf.
LCY makes it possible to make day return trips to the financial centers in Europe, Dublin & Scotland.
You can get off the DLR train and be sitting in the departure lounge waiting to get on the plane in 15 minutes or so... try doing that at LHR.

Maybe BA will expand from LCY with new routes. Maybe they could fly to cities like BRU, LUX, CGN, MUC, HAM, OSL, CPH, ARN, MAD, BCN, etc.

NichCage wrote:

Maybe BA will expand from LCY with new routes. Maybe they could fly to cities like BRU, LUX, CGN, MUC, HAM, OSL, CPH, ARN, MAD, BCN, etc.

I expect perhaps some more Italian routes too, FCO/PSA perhaps?

Looking at the current route map I would say there are still lots of destinations across Europe that could support CityFlyer flights, especially to Northern & Southern Europe.

SelseyBill wrote:

BAorNoWay wrote:

I would like to hear peoples thoughts on the future of BA CityFlyer operations at London City Airport now that we know the airport is undergoing a £400 million redevelopment that will include seven additional parking stands that will be large enough for Bombardier C-Series aircraft and a full length parallel taxi-way that will greatly improve the flow of ground operations at the airport........

Before looking too deep at operations from LCY, I believe there is still some considerable doubt about the whole future of LCY's existence at all to debate.

Canary Wharf will soon be connected to very quick and frequent rail services direct to LHR, and its interesting that TfL refuses to give planning permission for a new privately funded 'Crossrail' station @ LCY itself.

We currently have a Labour Mayor, and if a Labour Government follows; it is reasonable to foresee Mayor Khan targeting LCY for redeveloping into desperately needed housing.

Yes; LCY is a more than useful airport; but it is also a very valuable piece of well connected real estate.

It would be interesting to hear from London based contributors reflecting on the future of LCY as an airport at all........

Considering the airport just received approval for a £400 million redevelopment with an additional 7 aircraft stands, full length parallel taxiway, new hotel and new offices I think it’s pretty safe to say that LCY will be staying around for the long term.

Cross rail will make travelling to Heathrow a lot faster but business travellers from Europe love the convenience of flying to/from city airport. You are in and out within 20 minutes, and time is money as they say!

Good to see the weekend leisure routes returning to BHX and BRS next year. I’m surprised BACF hasn’t tried SOU as there must be a good Executive Club catchment there.

As for LCY with ARN, BCN, CPH, HAM and MAD having been suspended I don’t think there’s much growth. Though, I would have thought JER and LUX would be contenders.

BAorNoWay wrote:

NichCage wrote:

Maybe BA will expand from LCY with new routes. Maybe they could fly to cities like BRU, LUX, CGN, MUC, HAM, OSL, CPH, ARN, MAD, BCN, etc.

I expect perhaps some more Italian routes too, FCO/PSA perhaps?

Looking at the current route map I would say there are still lots of destinations across Europe that could support CityFlyer flights, especially to Northern & Southern Europe.

PSA no way. Pisa has been a LHR -as well as LGW- route for the longest of times, and the LHR rotation is precious for connections.

I believe the CSeries order could be theirs (new CS customer, with 30 aircraft minimum, so probably a large airline) and they could do wonders with an LCY base. Quite a few folks would like to get off their plane and go straight to the heart of the city. Every major city could use an airport like that.

Vienna is a very affluent city with a strong banking sector thus I am surprised by the lack of service between LCY and VIE. Any airlines ever tried it?

konkret wrote:

Vienna is a very affluent city with a strong banking sector thus I am surprised by the lack of service between LCY and VIE. Any airlines ever tried it?

Austrian Airlines flew a Fokker 70 for a short while. I think there were problems with it landing in wet conditions so it didn't last very long.

flyingphil wrote:

I don't think there is an imminent threat to LCY's existence anymore.
The previous Mayor, Boris Johnson, was not a fan of LCY as he had his own ideas about his fantasy Boris Island new airport out in the Thames Estuary.. he blocked the expansion of the airport.
The current London Mayor approved the expansion of LCY and the local Mayor of Newham is supportive as it provides jobs in what was a fairly run down area of London.

I don't think Crossrail to LHR will make any difference to LCY's short haul services.
LCY is well placed for the financial sector based in the City of London and Canary Wharf.
LCY makes it possible to make day return trips to the financial centers in Europe, Dublin & Scotland.
You can get off the DLR train and be sitting in the departure lounge waiting to get on the plane in 15 minutes or so... try doing that at LHR.

Newham still IS a fairly run down part of London, Beckton, Silvertown etc. Lots of new expensive glass box flats living cheek by jowel with social housing. It's a bit of a ghetto to be honest. Crossrail may not be an existential threat BUT it will constrain growth IMHO. A day return is also possible from LHR and frankly, tube to gate can be done in under 15 mins at LHR as well Done it at T5. BA have a huge market dominance here, they've driven off all the other major players with the exception of LH now down to a single LCY-FRA and the bankrupt Alitalia. VLM have gone bust and CityJet are a fraction of what they were with KLM taking back AMS, even Aurigny have just given up. The only non BA bright spot has been the return of flybe. LCY has been slowly becoming a BA monopoly for years now, it's the strategic decision to move certain routes out of LHR that has driven their growth in the P2P business routes. HOWEVER should, BIG IF) LHR runway 3 ever get the go ahead, BA will be moving traffic the other way to maintain market share. A third runway at LHR coupled with Crossrail makes the medium term not as certain as people think. It won't close *BUT* I don't see as much growth as people think.

Does anyone really think BA will still be on LCY-JFK in the medium term with one A318 and no preclearance for a later flight?

I had a news item pop up on my google news feed last week linking to the Birmingham Mail. BA Cityflyer are in Birmingham holding an event to hire new captains 'to join the groeing business' for their LCY and EDI bases. Birmingham is a fair distance from LCY and EDI and I wonder if it's linked to possible regional expansion.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/mi ... m-13911349

Will be for the EDI/LCY bases, No different to the likes of EK/HU/QR and Air Asia X amongst others advertising for pilots in the UK.

BAorNoWay wrote:

Considering how many Russian’s are now living in London, could the E190 be used on flights to Moscow?

UK-Russia service is part of the bi-lateral if I'm not mistaken, and BA flies its maximum 21 fpw LHR-Moscow and 7 fpw LHR-St.Petersburg IIRC to max-out their permitted flying.

If BA/Cityflyer wanted to fly LCY-Moscow;' I believe they would have to switch flights over from LHR, or go lobby for an expanded bi-lateral; both of which are unlikely.

How come Aeroflot flies 31x weekly?

SelseyBill wrote:

BAorNoWay wrote:

I would like to hear peoples thoughts on the future of BA CityFlyer operations at London City Airport now that we know the airport is undergoing a £400 million redevelopment that will include seven additional parking stands that will be large enough for Bombardier C-Series aircraft and a full length parallel taxi-way that will greatly improve the flow of ground operations at the airport........

Before looking too deep at operations from LCY, I believe there is still some considerable doubt about the whole future of LCY's existence at all to debate.

Canary Wharf will soon be connected to very quick and frequent rail services direct to LHR, and its interesting that TfL refuses to give planning permission for a new privately funded 'Crossrail' station @ LCY itself.

We currently have a Labour Mayor, and if a Labour Government follows; it is reasonable to foresee Mayor Khan targeting LCY for redeveloping into desperately needed housing.

Yes; LCY is a more than useful airport; but it is also a very valuable piece of well connected real estate.

It would be interesting to hear from London based contributors reflecting on the future of LCY as an airport at all........

I agree, LCY shouldn't exist once LHR expands with new runways and crossrail makes it very easy to get from the City and Canary Wharf into LHR. The airport is far too restricted, they should make it all housing.

You know it’s on a dock, right?
I don’t think it will close, it would remain a strong competitor on p2p, besides HMG will be paying enough to HAL. without buying out the owners at City as well. You just can’t close it for free Ahmetdouas. £ many many.

lhrsfosyd wrote:

How come Aeroflot flies 31x weekly?

No idea.

Whatever the number of flights a week BA flies between UK and Russia under their bi-lateral permissions; I suspect 100% of those flights will remain @ LHR

Btblue wrote:

I had a news item pop up on my google news feed last week linking to the Birmingham Mail. BA Cityflyer are in Birmingham holding an event to hire new captains 'to join the groeing business' for their LCY and EDI bases. Birmingham is a fair distance from LCY and EDI and I wonder if it's linked to possible regional expansion.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/mi ... m-13911349

More likely they were after some of the Monarch people from ZB's substantial BHX operation.

SelseyBill wrote:

lhrsfosyd wrote:

How come Aeroflot flies 31x weekly?

No idea.

Whatever the number of flights a week BA flies between UK and Russia under their bi-lateral permissions; I suspect 100% of those flights will remain @ LHR

I would of thought so, flights sometimes warrant a 787. 777/747 in the past - maybe these are still rotated in now?

There's no way they'd downgrade to a E-Jet with no premium cabin.

LCY ain’t closing anytime soon, would like to see someone try and build houses on it.. houseboats maybe..

The third runway at LHR is still a long way off, if it ever happens, in the meantime LCY has a profitable niche market with the financial services and bankers of the City and Canary Wharf.. it also has the Jet Centre for private jets.

BACF seems to have pushed out all the competition at LCY, maybe by offering a superior product, so good for them. I hope FlyBe make a success of their operation so they have some competition.

I think Crossrail to LHR will mean there will be little point in launching longer haul routes to Dubai, Moscow, the East Coast of the US..

Tristarsteve wrote:

BACF is scope limited to 99 seats so an E195 would be overkill.

I assume this was an agreement with BALPA to justify paying considerably lower salaries to BACF pilots compared to BA mainline ?

With however the steady erosion of mainline terms and conditions will there come a time when the scope agreement is no longer worth keeping for either party ?

lhrsfosyd wrote:

How come Aeroflot flies 31x weekly?

The UK/Russia bilateral allows two airlines from each country to fly up to 35 [I think] flights a week from London to Moscow.

The UK authorities allocated 21 to BA [LHR] and 14 to Easyjet [LGW], Easyjet have now withdrawn their Moscow services and presumably if they don't resume them the UK authorities will have the power to allocate them elsewhere, if anyone applies for them. I don't know but I guess if there were flights from LCY they would count towards the 35 maximum allowed.

Russia alloacted their slots to Transaero and Aeroflot - but Transaero is now defunct and much of its operations absorbed into Aeroflot, so presumably Aeroflot utilise some but not all of the slots allocated to Transaero.