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gatibosgru
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:46 pm

How messy. Do we have any info, with source, on what happened to the alleged masturbator?
@DadCelo
 
jordanh
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:23 am

SheikhDjibouti"[quote="La Nacion wrote:
(subject to possible translation errors...)
The victim was a 29 year old Doctor, with a window seat in economy class.
She complained during the flight of her seat neighbor's behavior, without mentioning to the crew the episode of masturbation.
The crew twice woke the French passenger, tall and corpulent, sitting in the middle of a row of three seats, because it was covering the space reserved for the passenger next door, said the source.

I already sense something wrong here. Supposing our victim was in seat 23A, it now appears that the tall and corpulent Frenchman was sitting in 23B, and fell asleep leaning into 23C. Either that, or the translation is leading us astray. He was also clearly asleep. Perhaps he was masturbating in his sleep? [/quote]

Since he was released without charges, I doubt he was pleasuring himself at all. After the plane landed - and after she talked to her father - it just became a convenient excuse for making such a scene.

SheikhDjibouti"[quote="La Nacion wrote:
The Frenchman, about 30 years old, was arrested and placed in isolation for 24 hours by the judge's decision, without having access to a lawyer or consular assistance. He was released the next day, without being questioned by the judge

Without being questioned......? WTF? Again, very strange behaviour towards someone at the core of the incident. If indeed there was an incident.[/quote]

More than strange; if the judge actually believed he might possibly be guilty of masturbating, it is hard to think the judge would release him without charged. This looks bad for the Argentine prima donna.

SheikhDjibouti"[quote="La Nacion wrote:
Before the plane took off, a flight attendant proposed the Argentine change of seat, but it did not want, according to the source close to the investigation
Two more nuggets there. 1) The problems started even before take off? 2) She was offered a change of seat even then, but declined..[/quote]

I think that is the key; no claims of masturbation, no misdeeds by either the crew or the other passenger..... just a demand for an upgrade that was denied. After that, it became a rush to make excuses for totally unacceptable behavior.

dtw2hyd wrote:
There are recorded incidents, Google is your friend. Not an issue for me, though I would love to see DL/KL kick them out of SkyTeam.
Weren't AF employees at one point manhandled their own executive forcing him to scale a fence? .


Not much chance of KL trying to kick AF pit of Skyteam; KL is owned by AF. Google is your friend, too... ;)
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:20 am

jordanh wrote:
Not much chance of KL trying to kick AF pit of Skyteam; KL is owned by AF.


I don't need Google's help with SkyTeam. I still hope a KL, AF split and AF out of SkyTeam. KL is a better partner.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:52 am

Finally! I persuaded my computer to accept clarin.com and whatever cookies and advertising comes with it.

clarin newspapers wrote:
An Argentine passenger, doctor and daughter of Carlos Menem's former deputy justice minister, Ricardo Klass, said she had suffered "a nightmare in the air." First, had to endure the sexual harassment of a French passenger who began to masturbate at her side. And then she suffered the mistreatment of the crew

The passenger, Cedric Carayón, 30, was summoned Tuesday before a federal judge and denied the accusation. He was impeached for "obscene exhibitions". The lawsuit, by Klass himself, also calls for the head of the cabin to be charged for "coercion or threats".
I fear a possible mis-translation here; I am not sure whether that should read Klass himself (i.e. the father) or Klass herself (the actual victim).
Either way, is this a private prosecution, mis-translation, or just standard procedure in Argentina?
There is no comment here about what happened after Carayón was "impeached" (~charged?). Was he released as claimed elsewhere? Is he a free man today, living happily in France? (apart from a nasty smell following him around)

... all but the complainant were in court "from 9 in the morning to 9 at night," because the judge requested the declaration of each of the flight crew. The delay was also due to "it was necessary to do the translation into French"
So the (alleged) victim gets a free pass, whilst the witnesses get to spend 12 hours hanging around in a courtroom.
Clarin newspapers then devote a paragraph to tell us about the victim's father, Klass, an "expert in criminal law", and about his input to recent cases involving other airlines (Austral, LATAM, and AA).
"If she had not spoken, everyone will go to the hotel as soon as possible," the complaint continues
This asks us to believe that even before landing, she knew that the AF crew were not going to report these events. The question is why; is it because they had no knowledge of the alleged masturbation, or because they listened to her complaint but hoped somehow she would forget about it?

From the passenger's side, they deny that she has not said from the beginning that the Frenchman was masturbating. "So much so that she got up from her seat and told the crew, then told the cabin manager in particular and he even gave her a laptop so she could make a report

Er, could somebody here translate the translation? I can only guess it comes down to AF saying she did not mention masturbation at the beginning (or possibly at all). Whereas she claims she jumped out of her seat and made it clear to everyone.
The complaint for "annoying behavior by another passenger " is acknowledged by AF, which could cover making a masturbation gesture but presumably not full masturbation per se. Do we know which it is?
And, is it her word against several members of the AF crew? I wonder what happened to that laptop, and the report she had 8 hours to prepare? Assuming that the file was time stamped, and not corrupted, it would be most revealing. And it would be all her own work, before her father had any opportunity to "coach the witness".

According to the complainant, the passenger began to "wobble" towards her after dinner - which is served before 2 o'clock on the night takeoff - "when people begin to fall asleep".
Too much Vin de Chateau Collapso methinks.
Then - she says - "the man unbuttoned his trousers and began to make masturbation gestures under the little cushion that he put on to cover himself. The crew told her that they could not give her another seat because the plane was completely full. "They did not even have the gesture of wanting to change the place with another passenger." But they did change it to the jump seat - the seat of the airmen - where they traveled for 8 hours


"When they were about to land, the cabin manager, who had contained her, told her that she had to return to the original seat." Klass refused to return and allegedly received the threat that if she did not pay attention they would denounce her and she would be detained in the hands of the PSA."
The woman.... remained firm in her refusal. And just there another crewman warned that he had gotten a change of place. "It's something they could have done by common sense two hours before, and they did not
This sounds rather like my own earlier suggestion for solving the problem, but only applicable if the crew were in full possession of all the facts. And that is disputed.

The key point of the file is that the cabin manager would not have informed the commander - the highest authority on that flight - that what was really happening on that plane was a masturbation scene.
"That's why they charged him." He did not tell the commander everything he knew, because it is proven that he did. Other members of the crew stated that the cabin manager did comment on them
Was it a masturbation scene worthy of the Captain's attention? I would hope that a senior F/A could deal with the situation, at least in terms of an initial approach to Carayón, warning him to desist. I would rather that my Captain concentrated on flying the aircraft, and only got involved if the situation warranted turning the aircraft around and returning to CDG.

This article states that the flight was full - is there any way to verify that?
The other article talks about the victim occupying a window seat, and the gesturing Frenchman the middle seat. I proposed 23A & 23B. So what about the witness sitting in 23C? Even if they stated that they saw nothing, they should have been called. The SNPNC brief also mentioned F/As waking Carayón from his sleep, twice. How does that fit in with Klass moving to the jumpseat?

Let's go back to the core of the problem; the victim alleges..
"the man unbuttoned his trousers ..."
I know several larger men, who having indulged in too much dinner, unbutton their trousers (or loosen their belts) in order to make themselves more comfortable. On the one hand, a crowded aircraft is not the best place to do this. On the other hand, I've quietly loosened my own belt on just a four hour flight. What I did not do is unzip my fly; that would be going too far.. But neither is that actually mentioned in this case.

Was it just a brief & (very) stupid sexual gesture from a drunken 30 year old man to a 29 year old woman. Or was it actual masturbation, sordid and prolonged, with a messy outcome, and yet unnoticed by an aircraft full of passengers, and F/As who were given a very specific complaint (allegedly). And did either warrant the clumsy treatment of the F/As?
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MillwallSean
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:57 am

DWC wrote:
MillwallSean wrote:
Now, I read French and that claim I struggle with. Having read the major French newspapers, there have been little coverage of this in general in the major French newspapers and the little that i read did not publish that angle of the story. Instead the French newspapers, as shown below where Le Figaro a well known and respected newspaper in Frances, reports the story but has a different angle on the issue seemingly a more neutral one that instead focus on specific actions taken against the crew which is deemed to be outside legal practice. According to them it escalated to the CEO who got the French foreign department involved.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france ... entine.php


Le Figaro is indeed a major newspaper ( conservative ) but also well known to tell only a part of the story : the French make a lot of fun of "Le Fig" & "Figmag", "Le Figaro ment" (lies) to such an extent that a well known satyrical media goes by the name "Le Gorafi" - Google it.
I for one never quote it.
As the matter is quite unprecedented & probably out of proportions for any cabin crew, it has indeed reached the Quai d'Orsay. I expect the truth to be somewhere in between, our Argentinian friends here are resolutely behind their compatriot. The matter does not interest me otherwise, I only reacted when I saw the discrepancy between the OP & what I had just seen in my newsfeeds, but I suggest to wait until tomorrow to read what truly respected newspaper say : Le Monde (paywall), Les Echos, Le Huffington Post, Libé & perhaps the weekly mags like Le Point or L'Express in a few days. 8-)


Id say that if you read Le Monde, you'll find virtually the exact same story as you do in Le Figaro. Only issue is, its behind a paywall so much harder to reference.
Id also say that those two (Le Figaro & Le Monde) are the only two respected national newspapers in France and while some may not like its editorial stance, it is the oldest, second largest newspaper in the country and generally the go to publication for business news. it is also one of the two French newspapers quoted as being a 'newspaper of record'.
Aka, its based on journalistic standards and not like for example Libe and Huffington post more of activist-media.

With that said, Argentina has a known ability to present news in a more nationalistic setting that most other South American countries. With this man having questioned staff without their representatives present, there is something that isn't correct. Either, the story is not correct or the gentleman has overstepped his rights and the rights given to those accused by Argentinian law. My guess we have probably seen a fair bit of both.
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dcajet
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:33 am

gatibosgru wrote:
How messy. Do we have any info, with source, on what happened to the alleged masturbator?


He was detained by police on arrival @ EZE, charged with indecent exposure and released after a few hours. I am certain at some point in the near future he will either have to pay a fine or have his day in court. I don't have the link right nor the time to look for it but the story is all over the local Buenos Aires press.

On a related note, it is quite disconcerting and sad to see how A.netters manage to get on a tear about a story about which they knew nothing, making judgements, etc. People, get the facts straight before making fools out of yourselves. If Spanish is a barrier, Google Translate is your friend.

So a woman gets harassed/molested on a flight and she is a princess? And the crew who is supposed to look after the wellbeing of all passengers gets upset and complains via their union that an officer of the Court (a judge) had the audacity to call them to his office for a deposition? As the judge said on Clarín.com, similar episodes happened recently on both AA and LATAM flights and their crews had no issues with being deposed. Must be certain airline crews that have issues with the law of the land.
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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:13 am

I would assume that she's planning on suing the airline and that's why it took 12 hours to get each crew members testimony locked in and translated into French. No?
 
AR385
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:36 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
This doesn't quite agree with the poster who stated that the father was out of office for 17 years and had no influence.
Then again, this is only an Argentine news source reporting claims from the French Union


I stand by my statement. He had no influence. He is one of the most respected attorneys in the country and assuming it is true he interrogated the crew (Clarín does not mention that at all) it was in his capacity as an attorney for the plaintiff who happened to be his daughter. He gave no instructions to the judge, or pushed him around, or directed the police to treat the AF crew differently. So I don´t see how he could have had any influence in the investigation.
 
AR385
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:47 am

smaragdz wrote:
AR385 wrote:
The father was a minister over 17 years ago. No influence from him whatsoever.


And you know this for a fact because you were present? Otherwise I fail to see how you are in a position to say whether or not he was an influence.

AR385 wrote:
The passenger next to the lady was first invading her space and then started to masturbate.


I have yet to see a definitive version of events. All we have are somewhat inconsistent accounts of what was claimed by the passenger.

AR385 wrote:
Air France confirmed on an official statement most of the facts the passenger reported on the ground.


I have not seen any official statement stating what you claim. Can you provide a link to this official statement?


There are extremely few facts publically available in this case, certainly not enough for anyone to pass any judgement on either of the two passengers, the crew, or the authorities. For you to give your opinion on what happened as fact amounts to nothing more than (as you yourself put it) character assassination.


I am not giving my opinion. I am writing from a source. And if you had bothered to read the entire thread, you would have seen the post where I give the link to that source. Next time please do that.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:01 am

dcajet wrote:
So a woman gets harassed/molested on a flight and she is a princess? And the crew who is supposed to look after the wellbeing of all passengers gets upset and complains via their union that an officer of the Court (a judge) had the audacity to call them to his office for a deposition? As the judge said on Clarín.com, similar episodes happened recently on both AA and LATAM flights and their crews had no issues with being deposed. Must be certain airline crews that have issues with the law of the land.


This is partially a cultural issue (and may to a degree be a translation problem too), but the idea of detaining folks who are at most witnesses to a civil dispute troubles me, largely because countries that respect the rule of law generally don’t do that.
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zeke
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:17 am

The whole story is very bizarre on many levels. No airline is responsible for the behavior of passengers, passengers are responsible and accountable for their own behaviour.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Byron1976
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:55 am

dcajet wrote:
So a woman gets harassed/molested on a flight and she is a princess?

It seems to be like this to many users here.

zeke wrote:
The whole story is very bizarre on many levels. No airline is responsible for the behavior of passengers, passengers are responsible and accountable for their own behaviour.

In some point yes, it's bizarre that a crew don't respond paying enough attention to a situation like this in 2017 aC.
As you pointed, no airline is responsible for the behavior of passengers, but is responsible for keep the order during the flight. That's why the crew has the authority to even arrest a passenger during the flight, and then deliver that passenger to the authorities after landing. In this forum I have seen news of a flight diverted because a couple had sex in a toilet during the flight, the couple went in prison and have to pay a fine to the airline for the cost of fuel consumed by the diversion.

Edit spelling
 
roadrunner165
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:16 am

AR385 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
This doesn't quite agree with the poster who stated that the father was out of office for 17 years and had no influence.
Then again, this is only an Argentine news source reporting claims from the French Union


I stand by my statement. He had no influence. He is one of the most respected attorneys in the country and assuming it is true he interrogated the crew (Clarín does not mention that at all) it was in his capacity as an attorney for the plaintiff who happened to be his daughter. He gave no instructions to the judge, or pushed him around, or directed the police to treat the AF crew differently. So I don´t see how he could have had any influence in the investigation.



I’m not sure you understand how the legal system works. If the police detained the flight crew for the purpose of a criminal investigation, then the government is the plaintiff, and the woman is merely a victim of a crime. For the woman to be the plaintiff, that would imply that this is a civil matter, in which case the police had no business detaining the crew. And if Dad wanted to depose (interview)the crew and get their statement on record, that only happens after a lawsuit has been filed and during discovery proceeding and Air France would have their own attorneys present as well to give counsel to the cabin crew.
 
AR385
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:33 am

I understand the system all right. The crew were detained for what in common law would be a deposition. I don´t see why the government is the plaintiff, since they detained the crew after a complaint from the woman. Furthermore, nowhere does it say it was either a criminal investigation or a civil one. And sure, that is a problem. It is debatable wether the woman is the victim of a crime. Neither of the sources cited explain that. As for the crew not being represented by attorneys (or their attorneys being present) is AF´s problem. One can also argue the crew was not "arrested" but merely detained, which of course, in practical terms it is one and the same. In any case, the woman had filed a lawsuit, on AF´s own laptop provided by the AF purser. So if it was deemed a civil matter, there was by then, a filed lawsuit.

I am not debating wether the Argentine authorities were right. I am arguing that the A.net consensus that "Daddy rushed in to influence the Argentine justice system in favor of his princess daughter", is wrong.
 
roadrunner165
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:46 am

Um, yeah.... I’ll just move along now.

Jesus take the wheel, what did I just read here?
 
geoshina
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:27 am

roadrunner165 wrote:
Um, yeah.... I’ll just move along now.

Jesus take the wheel, what did I just read here?


You read what you should have listened: tango.
It is full of drama and sometimes may ends in a disaster :)


There are so many ways to look at this history. I dunno if we will ever know it.
If I was her I would try to record it and show his face. In this day and age a picture or video recording can be your best ally.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:16 am

Bongodog1964 wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Similar to the "Korean Princess on the Peanut" bruhaha.

Very civilized.


Whatever peanut you might call, that one did damage. They should know better and manage expectations since although un-merited, this kind of people can be really annoying and cause issues pretty easily.


How do you "manage expectations" when the passenger is being totally unreasonable ? Demanding an on board upgrade to an already occupied seat is not reasonable behaviour, the passenger was the daughter of a former deputy minister of justice, exceedingly unlikely to be poorly educated, and couldn't claim to be on her first flight as she was returning home to Argentina. Even worse her father indulged the "little princess" by twisting arms and getting the crew detained


You do not get it, sorry. "Manage Expectations" does not mean simply bump passengers off to satisfy "her highness". Means to be able to come to the "Ms. Do you know who I am??" in a way that does not justify complaints down the line. Being seen as trying to accommodate her (without actually doing so unless possible), offering something in exchange (business class meals, extra glass of champagne, etc...) can go a long way. The point was that the crew point blank refused her request.

I know - they are right and would not be able to be prosecuted or anything. But their attitude simply gave them a lot of headache. Just like the UA personnel which refused those girls in stockings a while ago. They were right but did in such a way that the whole thing went viral
 
Jomar777
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:22 am

kriskim wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Similar to the "Korean Princess on the Peanut" bruhaha.

Very civilized.


Whatever peanut you might call, that one did damage. They should know better and manage expectations since although un-merited, this kind of people can be really annoying and cause issues pretty easily.


I agree, definitely not worth the hassle! But I don't think the public would side with the passenger, I rather think that they would side with the crew.


You are right, the public (myself included) would certainly side with the crew. But this would not have avoided them the hassle they got, isn't it?

I remember once travelling with BA, for example from GRU. MY seat was faulty and would not recline (and it was a red eye flight). The crew could not accommodate me elsewhere because the B744 was jam packed on all classes. They still tried to find a solution including seeing if they could deal with my seat during the flight. End of story: they managed to get me some recline (although the seat would not come back upright), gave me business class meal and a small bottle of champagne as complimentary. Result: instead of me going to complain of the old metal they sent me on my journey, they got an e-mail praising the crew's efforts in dealing with this matter. I still travelled in a faulty seat but felt that at least they did their best.

Sometimes you do not give what your passengers want but a different attitude is already enough.
 
TYCOON
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:49 am

I have read through these articles and through this thread (I heard of the situation before even seeing this thread). I read French and Spanish fluently; I fly AF frequently and visit Argentina at least once a year for the past 20 years, where I have alot of dear friends. I also happen to be well read on Argentine history and culture (since university days). My conclusion: Ban the spoiled brat of a most-likely corrupt ex-Deputy Minister of Justice !!! I don't believe her story for one second...
 
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zeke
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:31 am

Byron1976 wrote:
As you pointed, no airline is responsible for the behavior of passengers, but is responsible for keep the order during the flight. That's why the crew has the authority to even arrest a passenger during the flight, and then deliver that passenger to the authorities after landing.


“The crew” does not have the authority to arrest anyone, the captain and only the captain can either disembark or deliver a passenger on arrival, under the Convention on Offences and Certain Other Acts on Board Aircraft, (“the Tokyo Convention”).

And no the airlines are not required to “keep the order during the flight”, that is the personal responsibility of each and every passenger. We now live in a society which seems to blame everyone else for their own behavior.

If a passenger is unruly during a flight, the Tokyo Convention may be applied. Note I have said may, there is no obligation on the part of an airline.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:15 am

If crew enabled sexual harassment by mere ignorance or of more ulterior motive, they got what they deserved.

PR spinning this as freeloader princess lashing out crew is not going anywhere. I am glad she had connections at high-places and able to mobilize authorities quickly. If this was someone else with no connections, she would have suffered trauma and alleged perp and enablers walk freely.

Maybe alleged perp told Argentinian authorities crew didn't stop him, so authorities let him go and dealt with the crew.

Nowadays crew diverts planes for a diabetic asking for some food, enabling Mr.Jerkoff and asking victim back to her seat, what a shame.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:57 am

Byron1976 wrote:
As you pointed, no airline is responsible for the behavior of passengers, but is responsible for keep the order during the flight. That's why the crew has the authority to even arrest a passenger during the flight, and then deliver that passenger to the authorities after landing.
zeke wrote:
“The crew” does not have the authority to arrest anyone, the captain and only the captain can either disembark or deliver a passenger on arrival, under the Convention on Offences and Certain Other Acts on Board Aircraft, (“the Tokyo Convention”).

And no the airlines are not required to “keep the order during the flight”, that is the personal responsibility of each and every passenger. We now live in a society which seems to blame everyone else for their own behavior.

Thanks Zeke :checkmark:

Most of this thread has been people expressing opinions, some valid, some completely off-topic, and some just downright unpleasant.

It's a small miracle this whole discussion hasn't been moved to "non aviation"

For myself I find that having read differing versions of events, I am left with numerous questions - some of which do actually require answers from someone with an aviation background. Others are more legal in nature. And others are just ... questions.

In post#16 I wrote:
This incident took place in international airspace, on a French aircraft, that then landed in Argentina.

Whose jurisdiction?
What if the incident was so serious that the aircraft turned around mid-flight and headed back to CDG?

Either way, would it be more appropriate for the French Courts to review the case, bearing in mind the nationality of the airline, the accused passenger, and the accused F/A's (all French). Plus it would obviate any charges that victim's father could possibly influence the outcome. And, above all, it would have happened anyway if the flight had returned to CDG.

Any possibility of that? What is the legal position of this "international" event?
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Cubsrule
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:37 pm

AR385 wrote:
As for the crew not being represented by attorneys (or their attorneys being present) is AF´s problem.


No. If they asked for counsel and the Argentine authorities refused, that’s a problem with the rule of law in Argentina. They may also have been entitled to consular assistance, and I have seen nothing suggesting that they received that. Both are serious breaches of international norms.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:58 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AR385 wrote:
As for the crew not being represented by attorneys (or their attorneys being present) is AF´s problem.


No. If they asked for counsel and the Argentine authorities refused, that’s a problem with the rule of law in Argentina. They may also have been entitled to consular assistance, and I have seen nothing suggesting that they received that. Both are serious breaches of international norms.


I don't think 12 hours is out of the norm, knowing French answer phones only during bank hours, calling after business hours on the official phone can result in grievance filing.
 
AirInterCRV
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:51 pm

When you thought things couldn't fall any lower, threads like this happen...


Irrespective of anything else, the flight's cabin crew seems to have endured a very unusual ordeal by local police, that goes beyond acceptable norms

How convenient it is to dismiss AF staff as unionized crybabies. Air France has been a transcontinental airline from its inception 84 years ago (and before that if you account for its constituent airlines). Like other old Euro legacies, its staff, in the air and on the ground, are well trained in the art and manners of dealing with, and adapting to, various customs, cultures, languages, sensitivities, habits and political environments (go to any SkyPriority check-in line in a West African airport 2 hours before the AF departure to see how to manage an environment where everybody and their cousin seems to be entitled to some privilege, while valuing some of the airline’s most loyal customers and maintaining an image and a level of service consistent with the flying public’s expectations).

DWC wrote:
Le Figaro is indeed a major newspaper ( conservative ) but also well known to tell only a part of the story : the French make a lot of fun of "Le Fig" & "Figmag", "Le Figaro ment" (lies) to such an extent that a well known satyrical media goes by the name "Le Gorafi" - Google it

This is laughable. This is akin to say “never trust AP, the guys from The Onion are mimicking them”. You may not like Le Figaro (I don’t), but it’s a respectable and professional news organization. In any case, this is treated as minor news (“Faits divers”, for the lack of a good translation I could think of) in the French media, on par with the usual crap (“baby elephant born in zoo”, “man wrong-way driving at 190kph was intoxicated”, and the like), so there would be no major point in distorting facts. Some newspapers (and some a.net posters, apparently) in Argentina seem to take a more nationalistic stance over this…

This is fishy, we’ll probably never get the full light on this – and who cares, really…
My feeling is that this person never got over the fact that she was about to travel in Y and that cabin crew seemed indifferent to this (“amability” towards annoying Y passengers can be inconsistent at AF…). The story about this fat dude cleaning his rifle seems cooked, and while this lady might have endured a displeasing flight (and who doesn’t, from time to time?), local police would not have put on such a show had she been an ordinary citizen. This is going to end quietly, the crew will get one week of paid rest, this woman will be put on AF’s no fly list (not that she would want to fly AF again anyway - after such an ordeal!)...

On an ancillary note, I’m happy J was full on the EZE flight (consistent with the end of the MVD tag-on)
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:59 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AR385 wrote:
As for the crew not being represented by attorneys (or their attorneys being present) is AF´s problem.


No. If they asked for counsel and the Argentine authorities refused, that’s a problem with the rule of law in Argentina. They may also have been entitled to consular assistance, and I have seen nothing suggesting that they received that. Both are serious breaches of international norms.


I don't think 12 hours is out of the norm, knowing French answer phones only during bank hours, calling after business hours on the official phone can result in grievance filing.


Perhaps the most miraculous part of this whole story is that the AF crew apparently completed a flight all the way from CDG to EZE without going on strike.
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nachodam
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:55 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
AR385 wrote:
As for the crew not being represented by attorneys (or their attorneys being present) is AF´s problem.


No. If they asked for counsel and the Argentine authorities refused, that’s a problem with the rule of law in Argentina. They may also have been entitled to consular assistance, and I have seen nothing suggesting that they received that. Both are serious breaches of international norms.


They are not being charged of anything, the "fat man" is. Therefore, according to Argentine law, being a witness you dont have the "right for an attorney", thats a right intended for the accused. Also, i suppose they were held in custody according to the fact that there was great danger of them leaving the country.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:24 pm

nachodam wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AR385 wrote:
As for the crew not being represented by attorneys (or their attorneys being present) is AF´s problem.


No. If they asked for counsel and the Argentine authorities refused, that’s a problem with the rule of law in Argentina. They may also have been entitled to consular assistance, and I have seen nothing suggesting that they received that. Both are serious breaches of international norms.


They are not being charged of anything, the "fat man" is. Therefore, according to Argentine law, being a witness you dont have the "right for an attorney", thats a right intended for the accused. Also, i suppose they were held in custody according to the fact that there was great danger of them leaving the country.


I do believe you have just described a police state. Did you really mean to do that?
Witnesses can be held in custody, but they don't have a right to an attorney?

Please take a moment to consider the implications of that.

Meanwhile, I don't know that they were held in custody as you say - maybe they were just dissuaded from leaving on the next flight.
I also don't believe they were denied access to an attorney; but as simple witnesses they might have considered that they didn't need expensive legal representation.
However at some point the Argentina Justice system pulled the rug from under them, and some of them suddenly jumped from being witnesses, and instead became "the accused".
I would have found that whole mis-managed situation very intimidating. Indeed, maybe even more intimidating than the alleged mis-managed situation on board AF228. Which suggests they have every reason for a counter-suit.
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hayzel777
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:33 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
nachodam wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

No. If they asked for counsel and the Argentine authorities refused, that’s a problem with the rule of law in Argentina. They may also have been entitled to consular assistance, and I have seen nothing suggesting that they received that. Both are serious breaches of international norms.


They are not being charged of anything, the "fat man" is. Therefore, according to Argentine law, being a witness you dont have the "right for an attorney", thats a right intended for the accused. Also, i suppose they were held in custody according to the fact that there was great danger of them leaving the country.


I do believe you have just described a police state. Did you really mean to do that?
Witnesses can be held in custody, but they don't have a right to an attorney?

Please take a moment to consider the implications of that.

Meanwhile, I don't know that they were held in custody as you say - maybe they were just dissuaded from leaving on the next flight.
I also don't believe they were denied access to an attorney; but as simple witnesses they might have considered that they didn't need expensive legal representation.
However at some point the Argentina Justice system pulled the rug from under them, and some of them suddenly jumped from being witnesses, and instead became "the accused".
I would have found that whole mis-managed situation very intimidating. Indeed, maybe even more intimidating than the alleged mis-managed situation on board AF228. Which suggests they have every reason for a counter-suit.

"A danger of leaving the country"??? You've got to be kidding. :banghead:
If they were witnesses, why were they held in custody? Witnesses are not supposed to be locked up with prisoners.
 
nachodam
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:35 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
nachodam wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

No. If they asked for counsel and the Argentine authorities refused, that’s a problem with the rule of law in Argentina. They may also have been entitled to consular assistance, and I have seen nothing suggesting that they received that. Both are serious breaches of international norms.


They are not being charged of anything, the "fat man" is. Therefore, according to Argentine law, being a witness you dont have the "right for an attorney", thats a right intended for the accused. Also, i suppose they were held in custody according to the fact that there was great danger of them leaving the country.


I do believe you have just described a police state. Did you really mean to do that?
Witnesses can be held in custody, but they don't have a right to an attorney?

Please take a moment to consider the implications of that.

Meanwhile, I don't know that they were held in custody as you say - maybe they were just dissuaded from leaving on the next flight.
I also don't believe they were denied access to an attorney; but as simple witnesses they might have considered that they didn't need expensive legal representation.
However at some point the Argentina Justice system pulled the rug from under them, and some of them suddenly jumped from being witnesses, and instead became "the accused".
I would have found that whole mis-managed situation very intimidating. Indeed, maybe even more intimidating than the alleged mis-managed situation on board AF228. Which suggests they have every reason for a counter-suit.


No no, you are right! I didnt mean in custody like in jail (actually thats what it means, sorry), but like refrained from leaving the country.

Also now that i whink more about it, legally police CAN hold you in for a certain number of hours (i think its 12 or 24h) when they "suspect" you could have commited a crime. Because you are not officially accused of anything, you DONT have the right to an attorney nor the right for communication, until the public prosecutor (called "fiscal" here) looks at your case and decide wether you are formally accused or freed. This is totally true and legal here. I really dont have the time to find a link to the Argentina Penal Code right now, but i can look it up if you want.

I am not saying that this is what happened, just stating some facts about Argentine laws and customs.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:35 pm

nachodam wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
AR385 wrote:
As for the crew not being represented by attorneys (or their attorneys being present) is AF´s problem.


No. If they asked for counsel and the Argentine authorities refused, that’s a problem with the rule of law in Argentina. They may also have been entitled to consular assistance, and I have seen nothing suggesting that they received that. Both are serious breaches of international norms.


They are not being charged of anything, the "fat man" is. Therefore, according to Argentine law, being a witness you dont have the "right for an attorney", thats a right intended for the accused. Also, i suppose they were held in custody according to the fact that there was great danger of them leaving the country.


If a state is compelling a person to participate in a legal process (and particularly a legal process in front of a judge, though civil law countries like Argentina don't have many judge-free processes) without an attorney, then that is a big problem for the rule of law. The fact that that forced participation may have been legal under Argentine law makes it no less problematic from the big picture perspective.
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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:31 pm

please explain why you think her story has holes? I see a cultural and language barrier. Nobody knows this woman, i find it highly insulting that
people are making assumptions about her, due to who her father is. It is my understanding that she herself is a professional.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:43 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
please explain why you think her story has holes? I see a cultural and language barrier. Nobody knows this woman, i find it highly insulting that
people are making assumptions about her, due to who her father is. It is my understanding that she herself is a professional.


Not sure why your well written response was deleted but original post still kept, oh well ae.net. If that post represents the views of a modern western society, union crybabies are least of their problems.
 
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Byron1976
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:03 pm

zeke wrote:
“The crew” does not have the authority to arrest anyone, the captain and only the captain can either disembark or deliver a passenger on arrival, under the Convention on Offences and Certain Other Acts on Board Aircraft, (“the Tokyo Convention”).

And no the airlines are not required to “keep the order during the flight”, that is the personal responsibility of each and every passenger. We now live in a society which seems to blame everyone else for their own behavior.

If a passenger is unruly during a flight, the Tokyo Convention may be applied. Note I have said may, there is no obligation on the part of an airline.


Sorry Zeke, I just consulted a Flight Attendant student about what you said, and you seem to be wrong. The Captain has the authority to arrest a passenger IF his judgement considers that it got to be arrested, it can do that. All airlines as members of the OACI has to follow that rule.
So in the case of Air France flight, the crew failed to tell to the Captain about what's going on with the passengers involved on this situation.
Regards.

Edit: spelling
 
Curiousflyer
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:05 pm

Why has the masturbator not been arrested and denounced yet? Probably because he did not do anything.

Like many other third world countries, Argentina is so corrupt and messy it is hopeless. This behavior is very revealing and makes it both very profitable and seriously risky to work with them. But with risk comes reward so it is great that AF and other airlines do their best to rack up the pesos, and convert them to USD and EUR ASAP. Hopefully though this woman and her dad will be banned from flying the airline.
Last edited by Curiousflyer on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
smaragdz
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:07 pm

AR385 wrote:
I am not giving my opinion. I am writing from a source. And if you had bothered to read the entire thread, you would have seen the post where I give the link to that source. Next time please do that.


I repeat: I have not found any ‘official statement’ from Air France confirming the ‘facts’ that you mentioned. All I am asking for is a link to that statement that you are referencing.
 
nachodam
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:25 pm

Curiousflyer wrote:
Why has the masturbator not been arrested and denounced yet? Probably because he did not do anything.

Like many other third world countries, Argentina is so corrupt and messy it is hopeless. This behavior is very revealing and makes it both very profitable and seriously risky to work with them. But with risk comes reward so it is great that AF and other airlines do their best to rack up the pesos, and convert them to USD and EUR ASAP. Hopefully though this woman and her dad will be banned from flying the airline.


First, check your facts. The man HAS been denounced, and HAS been arrested.

https://www.clarin.com/sociedad/justici ... 1hv1G.html

If you dont read spanish, i can translate it for you. The passenger is charged of "indecent exhibit" and was detained for 36hs, until released attending futher interrogatories tomorrow in presence of the french consul.

Second, please refrain from such comments stated in your second paragraph. It doesnt add anything to the forum, just personal, and i might say highly xenophobic and retrograde, perpectives.
 
nachodam
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:30 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
nachodam wrote:

They are not being charged of anything, the "fat man" is. Therefore, according to Argentine law, being a witness you dont have the "right for an attorney", thats a right intended for the accused. Also, i suppose they were held in custody according to the fact that there was great danger of them leaving the country.


I do believe you have just described a police state. Did you really mean to do that?
Witnesses can be held in custody, but they don't have a right to an attorney?

Please take a moment to consider the implications of that.

Meanwhile, I don't know that they were held in custody as you say - maybe they were just dissuaded from leaving on the next flight.
I also don't believe they were denied access to an attorney; but as simple witnesses they might have considered that they didn't need expensive legal representation.
However at some point the Argentina Justice system pulled the rug from under them, and some of them suddenly jumped from being witnesses, and instead became "the accused".
I would have found that whole mis-managed situation very intimidating. Indeed, maybe even more intimidating than the alleged mis-managed situation on board AF228. Which suggests they have every reason for a counter-suit.

"A danger of leaving the country"??? You've got to be kidding. :banghead:
If they were witnesses, why were they held in custody? Witnesses are not supposed to be locked up with prisoners.


If you dont get the fact that pilots and flight attendants are highly probable of having easy ways to exit the country, then you are the one that has got to be kidding---
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:02 pm

Apparently, French media's source was the AF Union, makes it very reliable and fact-based.

While railing against the Argentine legal system, PR seems to forget, allegedly it was AF crew on French sovereign space enabled sexual harassment. She was ready to sit on a jump seat for most the flight proves she was traumatized. PR should stop vilifying the victim.
 
AR385
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:49 pm

Here is in it´s entirety the complaint that the passenger wrote on the laptop provided by the purser. Just scroll down to about halfway through the article.

http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/vuelo-ai ... oCKkM.html

Now, I have a question to those who still think the entire matter was due to the woman´s sense of entitlement. Why would she go seat for 8 hours on a cabin crew jumpseat as uncomfortable as they are (compared to her Y seat) just because of a silly tantrum? It´s does not make sense.
 
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sergegva
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:19 pm

Why is this newspaper (Clarin) giving the full name & several very personal details about a guy that is, currently, only suspected of an offense and not condemned?
 
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zeke
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:28 pm

Byron1976 wrote:
Sorry Zeke, I just consulted a Flight Attendant student about what you said, and you seem to be wrong. The Captain has the authority to arrest a passenger IF his judgement considers that it got to be arrested, it can do that. All airlines as members of the OACI has to follow that rule.
So in the case of Air France flight, the crew failed to tell to the Captain about what's going on with the passengers involved on this situation.
Regards.

Edit: spelling


You are very funny, your gold standard source is a “flight attendant student”. A captain is not a police officer, they do not arrest anyone, the Tokyo Convention as I stated above gives the authority to the captain whilst in flight to disembark or deliver a passenger at the completion of the flight, but it is not an obligation. It is up to people on the ground to carry out the legal process of arrest, charging, institute legal proceedings, and sentencing.

This is the Tokyo Convention https://treaties.un.org/doc/db/terroris ... nglish.pdf

nachodam wrote:
If you dont get the fact that pilots and flight attendants are highly probable of having easy ways to exit the country, then you are the one that has got to be kidding---


It has nothing to really to do with the crew, it is one passenger making a complaint on the ground outside of the aircraft to the police about another passenger, the captain did not deliver the passenger to the authorities on arrival (i.e. the Tokyo convention was not applied in flight, and I assume that is because there is a lack of witnesses to the alleged act). I see the article has stated that the crew “denied” her an upgrade, but how exactly were they to upgrade her if the flight was full. And yes, if the flight was full, she needs to be in a passenger seat, not a crew seat for landing. She is also required to follow directions of the crew, as she agreeed to in her conditions of carriage. Those points seems to be glossed over.

AR385 wrote:
Now, I have a question to those who still think the entire matter was due to the woman´s sense of entitlement. Why would she go seat for 8 hours on a cabin crew jumpseat as uncomfortable as they are (compared to her Y seat) just because of a silly tantrum? It´s does not make sense.


The assumption being made by you is the crew actually witnessed the alleged offense, nothing has been suggested that the crew did witness it. Normally we like to have 4 written witness statements from people who were not crew members. The question I have is why no other passenger was “detained” as a witness ? I would suggest that is due to no one else actually seeing anything.

If no one else saw this, it comes down to a he said/she said dispute, and most courts then find insufficient evidence to support either side.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
AtomicGarden
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:41 am

I didn't know if I should write something about this, but here it goes.

A brief summary:

A pax complained to the crew that her neighbour was masturbating. The crew (so she says) didn't do much. They relocated her to a jumpseat but then freaked out when she was told to return to her seat for landing (which we know it's the rules, but she doesn't). She is complaining because the main purser apparently was very rude to her and threatened to have her arrested or something. There's not much talk about her demanding an upgrade or anything that has to do with her dad's previous job (who I never heard of).

As to the AF crew, they were called to court to testify together when normally people would go on different dates, which is of course not possible in this case. That's why they feel they went through hell. Same goes to the French pax.

Thread title should be changed, really. While I'm not totally believing this woman's story, it has nothing to do with someone behaving like an entitled jerk
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:45 am

The latest edition of "clarin" gives us even more to ponder.
The French man is now 37 years old (up from 30).
He lives in Toulouse and came with his father to the World Federation of the Argentine Aeromodelling Federation, which took place from 4 to 11 November in Villa Gesell. He managed to participate, although it did not go well.

Unless they were separated for some reason, whilst Mme Klass was in the window seat (23A), we now have in all probability father & son in seats 23B & 23C.
Now if there is one thing absolutely guaranteed to put me off playing with my favourite toy, it would be having my father sitting next to me. :rotfl:

The other little gem is that he was denounced, charged, went to court, and then released in time to participate in a model plane competition starting Nov 4th.
Given that the Argentine press have his name, I'm guessing he might have had a rough ride. On the other hand, we should be grateful that he was released at all. I'm also guessing the authorities are holding his passport just in case.

Carayón has "confirmed" his flight back to France on November 25 at 2:50 pm. And, for the moment, nothing prevents him from leaving the country. If prosecuted, it will be {Judge} Villena who will have to authorize his departure, prior to the payment of a fine - it is not a bond - for a maximum of $ 12,000.
He's free to leave the country, except he isn't (on two counts). Maybe it's just poor translation?

This week, at the latest on Monday, it will be defined if the cabin manager, Gilles Ludovic Bernard Mariotti, will also be charged for "coercion or threats".
This must be because Mariotti explained the possible legal penalty if Mme Klass refused to obey lawful F/A instructions, such as "sit down, and belt up".
This seems like a very strange aspect of Argentine law?

The need to translate into French and vice versa delayed things, but the decision to concentrate the statements on the same day was at the request of the company itself
Interesting. AF wanted things speeded up so that the crew were available for the return flight. I'm not sure if that went exactly to plan. :shakehead:

The defence statement from Carayon is as follows;
"The passenger {Klass} was leaning to the left and I {Carayon} settled down so as not to occupy her space." I woke up when I heard they {F/A's & Mme Klass} were speaking in English and in a moment a flight attendant shakes my shoulder to ask me to turn around, to be seated normally. I fell asleep at a certain moment, at a certain moment, which I can not determine, I felt that someone was touching my left shoulder and the complainant told me "this is not how it goes". I wake up automatically and, as I was half asleep, like a reflection, I get up and let it go. I went back to sleep and I never saw that passenger again during the flight "


After being arrested by the Airport Police
"...they undress me twice " {and} .... asserted his right not to declare until he had a lawyer and a translator.

Then the story skips the matter of court proceedings completely, and jumps straight to...
After 48 hours in detention, Carayón was allowed to go to his hotel and from there he traveled to Gesell to the World Championship for Aerobatic Model Aircraft, the competition that had brought him to Buenos Aires.

The credibility of this report, and the gaps and omissions are a little worrying. This must be simply due to poor reporting.
At least we are getting closer to a full picture, the story from both sides. As to who is telling the truth - that is still the big question.
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2. What was I saying again?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:24 am

zeke wrote:
And yes, if the flight was full, she needs to be in a passenger seat, not a crew seat for landing. She is also required to follow directions of the crew, as she agreeed to in her conditions of carriage. Those points seems to be glossed over.


So, the crew couldn't find some other male to seat next to Mr.Jerkoff or no one wanted that seat. Does CoC indemnify sexual harassment?
 
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zeke
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:16 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
So, the crew couldn't find some other male to seat next to Mr.Jerkoff or no one wanted that seat. Does CoC indemnify sexual harassment?


Where in the world is a male sitting next to a female considered sexual harassment ? What about sitting a lesbian next to a female ?

Talk about loaded statements, the allegations have not been substantiated. If you look up earlier it was reported ithe crew did offer her to move to another seat in economy early in the flight which she declined, she wanted to be moved up in class. You will find the male passenger also has their own natural justice rights.

If the good doctor takes offense to a person falling asleep next to her and slumping, which is not uncommon in economy (be it a train, bus, ferry, or aircraft), maybe she should have bought a business seat from the outset.

Nothing has been suggested that AF did not provide the services contracted by her.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:22 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
zeke wrote:
And yes, if the flight was full, she needs to be in a passenger seat, not a crew seat for landing. She is also required to follow directions of the crew, as she agreeed to in her conditions of carriage. Those points seems to be glossed over.

So, the crew couldn't find some other male to seat next to Mr.Jerkoff or no one wanted that seat. Does CoC indemnify sexual harassment?

Is it really so difficult for you (& certain others) to comprehend there are TWO versions of events circulating, and I am happy to admit I don't know which one is closer to the actual truth. Unfortunately you & others here have already decided who is guilty. :roll:

In one version, Mme Klass told the crew that the man was masturbating.
In the other version, she merely said that the man next to her made her uncomfortable.
In version 2, the crew found her an alternative seat (the jump seat) as a temporary measure, and didn't see the necessity of asking another (male) passenger to swap places with her for the landing phase.

If you believe some of the reports, the crew did indeed eventually ask someone to swap seats with her. But only after she made things very clear to them.
If you believe other reports, they could have asked the man's elderly father to swap places with his son. Or despite his age, was he seen as a risk too?

The information is out there if you can be bothered to search for it.
Or as you yourself frequently say; "Google is your friend...."
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
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Byron1976
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Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:39 am

zeke wrote:
You are very funny, your gold standard source is a “flight attendant student”. A captain is not a police officer, they do not arrest anyone, the Tokyo Convention as I stated above gives the authority to the captain whilst in flight to disembark or deliver a passenger at the completion of the flight, but it is not an obligation. It is up to people on the ground to carry out the legal process of arrest, charging, institute legal proceedings, and sentencing.
This is the Tokyo Convention https://treaties.un.org/doc/db/terroris ... nglish.pdf


Image

Well Sir, this is from you beloved source... I must recon that "arrest" doesn't mean exactly the same as "restrain", but well I've got to tighten my translation for some specific terms here to avoid to be "funny", and sorry if my source looked no so reliable to you, but I guessed that since this looks to be a problem of crew management of a situation in a cabin durign a flight... I consulted a person that's learning about this. Next time I'll try with a senior F/A.
Regards.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 343
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:55 am

Image
Most excellent!
In addition to clarifying the points you are both discussing, I am particularly liking the final paragraph sentences that are NOT highlighted in yellow.
Article 6 wrote:
ANY crew member or passenger may also take reasonable preventive measures without such authorization when he has reasonable grounds to believe that such action is immediately necessary to protect the safety of the aircraft, or of persons or property therein

In fact, once again, this looks remarkably like something @zeke wrote a few posts back, about individuals taking responsibility for themselves.
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4896
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air France crew detained after passenger complains “not receiving her upgrade”

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:55 am

zeke wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
So, the crew couldn't find some other male to seat next to Mr.Jerkoff or no one wanted that seat. Does CoC indemnify sexual harassment?


Where in the world is a male sitting next to a female considered sexual harassment ? What about sitting a lesbian next to a female ?

Talk about loaded statements, the allegations have not been substantiated. If you look up earlier it was reported ithe crew did offer her to move to another seat in economy early in the flight which she declined, she wanted to be moved up in class. You will find the male passenger also has their own natural justice rights.

If the good doctor takes offense to a person falling asleep next to her and slumping, which is not uncommon in economy (be it a train, bus, ferry, or aircraft), maybe she should have bought a business seat from the outset.

Nothing has been suggested that AF did not provide the services contracted by her.


Whether the allegation is true or not is irrelevant, it is a minimum courtesy for the crew to accommodate somewhere else when there is a pending allegation, or let her sit in a jump seat. She sat most of her flight in a jump seat which is even more uncomfortable than an economy seat. Purser coercing her to sit next to alleged perp probably escalated the situation and bought themselves some stripes. The only closest analogy I can find is in some third world tribal community leaders rule sexual assault victims to marry the perp.

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