Breathe
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:47 pm

I wonder if this aircraft could be used for potential routes such as EDI, BRS & BFS or would it still be too much plane for these airports?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4896
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
Quite good for 77X. It shows one can find roles for 779, 778, 78J and perhaps 789 all in one fleet. Lots of cross training benefits too.

If EK is the only airline in the world. Something has to give, my bet is on 777X.

Revelation wrote:
Quite bad for A350, total shut out.

Not so great for A380. Open squabbles about the future production lifetime and ongoing resale value of the fleet aren't a good thing.


Different POV. Airbus grew a spine and told EK to take a hike, Boeing still hanging on to its amoeboid roots.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5822
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:00 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Totally expected. If they were serious about the XWB they would not have cancelled the order in the first place.

I don't think that's true at all. The A350-1000 supposedly changed over what EK was looking for at that time. The A359 and A35X are both superb and competitive airplanes. I am a bit concerned about the size of backlog EK has with Boeing. ~200 widebodies between the 78J and the 77X is a shitload of frames.


It's a valid concern (especially for the 777X), but Boeing is not as exposed to EK with these programs as Airbus is with the A380. The 787-10 is relatively low-risk, and has a ton of orders. The 777X is a little slim at the moment, but will probably gather more orders as it nears production.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
airbazar
Posts: 7969
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:32 pm

enzo011 wrote:
And one of the least surprising orders goes to Boeing.

If you think this was a surprise order, you haven't been paying attention. The A350 with it's 18" wide seats and poor floor space utilization relative to a 9 abreast 787, was never a realistic option for EK. Least we forget that EK pretty much pioneered the long haul 10 abreast on the 777.
lightsaber wrote:
What is EK replacing? The 77Es, 773s, A340s, and everything else in the size range is gone. The 77L will be replaced by the 778... Or is that just marketing speak.

Well it depends. The vast majority of EK 77L routes are "regional" routes.
http://www.theeksource.com/boeing777-200lr.html
I fully expect the 78-10 to replace the 77L on all such routes.
There a few routes where the range is needed but the 778 might be too big. I'd be shocked if the once planned DXB-PTY would be started with a 778. I'm thinking these ULH routes will eventually be replaced by 789's when it's time to retire the 77L's, or they'll just abuse the 778 on them.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 24631
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:53 pm

Aviation Week has an interview with Tim Clark about the 787-10 order. He said the 787-10 was a natural fit for Emirates Airline and could serve over 80% of the airline's current route structure. He acknowledged the A350-900 and A350-1000 both offered greater performance, but that performance was not necessary anymore now that he has increased his 777-300ER fleet as well as ordered the 777-8 and 777-9.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... 5a6c1bc5bd
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:33 pm

airbazar wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
And one of the least surprising orders goes to Boeing.

If you think this was a surprise order, you haven't been paying attention. The A350 with it's 18" wide seats and poor floor space utilization relative to a 9 abreast 787, was never a realistic option for EK. Least we forget that EK pretty much pioneered the long haul 10 abreast on the 777.



I agree with you, it was never going to be anything but the 787 for EK if they were going to go for another model once they cancelled their A350 order. It never made sense to cancel a 70 plane order if you are unhappy with 20 of the types you have on order. They cancelled 50 A359's along with 20 A35K's. If the more capable A35K's were the problem they could have cancelled the 20 they have on order, or converted the 20 to the A359.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 1259
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:38 pm

9w748capt wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Just In

Emirates has placed an order for 40 787-10's

https://twitter.com/emirates/status/929640845556494336


787-10's what?


You keep commenting on "787-10s" what is the point you are getting at? Its unclear.
 
User avatar
Slug71
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:09 pm

N328KF wrote:
The 777X is a little slim at the moment, but will probably gather more orders as it nears production.


Maybe. The same was thought with the A330NEO.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 13132
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:27 pm

Stitch wrote:
Aviation Week has an interview with Tim Clark about the 787-10 order. He said the 787-10 was a natural fit for Emirates Airline and could serve over 80% of the airline's current route structure. He acknowledged the A350-900 and A350-1000 both offered greater performance, but that performance was not necessary anymore now that he has increased his 777-300ER fleet as well as ordered the 777-8 and 777-9.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... 5a6c1bc5bd

Interesting link as Sir Tim notes an 8 hour range. That implies quite a hit in takeoff performance. That implies the 3500nm range circle I posted earlier, is probably about right.

Slug71 wrote:
N328KF wrote:
The 777X is a little slim at the moment, but will probably gather more orders as it nears production.


Maybe. The same was thought with the A330NEO.

Both the A330NEO and 777X need more orders. Time will tell. The issue for the A330NEO is the 787. Boeing just increased production. The issue for the 777X is "is it too big?" Also, the 787-10 will be able to fly most missions. That is what will matter. If the range isn't needed, the 787-10 should be a little lighter weight than the A359 in similar configurations. That lighter weight helps on shorter missions and hurts on longer missions. Hence Tim Clark's comment on 8 hour missions (I bet that grows to 10).

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
Arion640
Posts: 497
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:46 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
Breathe wrote:
I wonder if this aircraft could be used for potential routes such as EDI, BRS & BFS or would it still be too much plane for these airports?


BFS - Certainly
EDI- Probably
BRS- Not sure, the 789 goes there but the 787-10 is longer and probably requires a longer take off run? It's a push to handle the 789 at BRS. A 767 got bent up at BRS because of the short runway once, I'm not sure EK would risk brand new 78J's.
319 320 321 346 388 733 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 E175 E195 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75
 
osupoke07
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:39 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Just In

Emirates has placed an order for 40 787-10's

https://twitter.com/emirates/status/929640845556494336


787-10's what?


You keep commenting on "787-10s" what is the point you are getting at? Its unclear.


I think he or she is just nitpicking the apostrophe usage. 787-10's could be literally read as "787-10 is" or "787-10 has".
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3195
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
One would think so. This deal is good for EK, not so much for Boeing 777X. Time will tell.

Quite good for 77X. It shows one can find roles for 779, 778, 78J and perhaps 789 all in one fleet. Lots of cross training benefits too.

Quite bad for A350, total shut out.

Not so great for A380. Open squabbles about the future production lifetime and ongoing resale value of the fleet aren't a good thing.


I tend to agree. Having the 78J, 77L, 778, 77W and 779 is a very versatile fleet for EKs need. I honestly fail to see how this is "bad" for the 777X :? Everything always seems to be.
Liberalism is a Mental Disorder
Progressivism is a Cancer
Utopia is a Myth
You are not entitled to Anything
 
gsg013
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:03 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:45 pm

IMHO this order will help emirates rightsize it's fleet for some routes. I believe the 787-10 is similar capacity and range as the 777-L but is a much more efficient/modern plane to do so. People often complain when their Emirates route is stuck with the 777-L. On some routes where the 777-300ER is a bit too big this will be the right plane for emirates.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 7295
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:50 pm

gsg013 wrote:
IMHO this order will help emirates rightsize it's fleet for some routes. I believe the 787-10 is similar capacity and range as the 777-L but is a much more efficient/modern plane to do so. People often complain when their Emirates route is stuck with the 777-L. On some routes where the 777-300ER is a bit too big this will be the right plane for emirates.

The 787-10 has far less range than the 77L.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 16456
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:56 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Quite good for 77X. It shows one can find roles for 779, 778, 78J and perhaps 789 all in one fleet. Lots of cross training benefits too.

If EK is the only airline in the world.

EK is taking it to the extreme, but they won't be the only airline with both 777X and 787. EK, SQ, EY, QR, NH is a good start two years before 777X EIS.

dtw2hyd wrote:
Something has to give, my bet is on 777X.

Interesting statement to make at the same time as Airbus is waffling on supporting A380 production for ten years.

dtw2hyd wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Quite bad for A350, total shut out.

Not so great for A380. Open squabbles about the future production lifetime and ongoing resale value of the fleet aren't a good thing.


Different POV. Airbus grew a spine and told EK to take a hike, Boeing still hanging on to its amoeboid roots.

Not really a great idea to tell the world's largest buyer of wide bodies to "take a hike", IMHO.

All EK is doing is asking Enders to back up his words on paper.

We shall see if he's willing to do so or not.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
bzcat
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:15 pm

Polot wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
IMHO this order will help emirates rightsize it's fleet for some routes. I believe the 787-10 is similar capacity and range as the 777-L but is a much more efficient/modern plane to do so. People often complain when their Emirates route is stuck with the 777-L. On some routes where the 777-300ER is a bit too big this will be the right plane for emirates.

The 787-10 has far less range than the 77L.


Not all the 77L routes are ULH. It is used on some surprising short routes as well.

787-10 gives EK flexibility on replacing 77W (as well as 77L).

787-10 can takeover any existing 77W or 77L routes that doesn't require the range capability with lower trip costs (less fuel, lower landing fee).
777-8 can takeover any existing 77L routes that require the range capability with lower CASM (more seats).
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4896
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
.., but they won't be the only airline with both 777X and 787.

I meant if EK was the only airline in business, not a two type operator.

Revelation wrote:
All EK is doing is asking Enders to back up his words on paper.

We shall see if he's willing to do so or not.


I can hazard a guess, he won't. Enders does what is good for Airbus, not for Emirates. Imagine if A380NEO was a Boeing program and Emirates motivated Boeing, it would have spent another $20B on it. Enders stopped it on drawing board.

Sometimes no deal is a good deal.
 
User avatar
Slash787
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:37 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:44 pm

So well what current EK routes do you think the 787-10 will fly to and what new routes can it open to the airline?

I do fly on EK 3 to 4 times a year and whatever flights I have been on, they have been nearly full at least on their 777's.

The thing is that the passengers will increase in the next 5 years and if their current flights are going full to at least the places I have been (Asia, South Africa and Europe) then how come thats an advantage? I do know that the 787 has a better fuel advantage than the 777, but the 777 carries more passengers.
 
bigjku
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:56 pm

Slash787 wrote:
So well what current EK routes do you think the 787-10 will fly to and what new routes can it open to the airline?

I do fly on EK 3 to 4 times a year and whatever flights I have been on, they have been nearly full at least on their 777's.

The thing is that the passengers will increase in the next 5 years and if their current flights are going full to at least the places I have been (Asia, South Africa and Europe) then how come thats an advantage? I do know that the 787 has a better fuel advantage than the 777, but the 777 carries more passengers.


On anything within its range envelope the 787-10 will have the lowest cost per seat I believe. That is why it makes a lot of sense.

As a family for EK the 789-10-77X make a good deal of sense. You can use the 9 to open routes for either the 10 or the 77X as it has the range for most of those routes. The 10 can go places a 77X wouldn’t make sense. The 77X can go places the 10 can’t reach and denser routes.

To me the key enabler are the very different ranges of the 9 and 10 as they give you a cost optimized design for most of your routes and a flexible route opener that can be a bit inefficient on shorter segments but could also open longer ones you want to make 77X-9 segments in the end.
 
User avatar
Slash787
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:37 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:01 pm

bigjku wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
So well what current EK routes do you think the 787-10 will fly to and what new routes can it open to the airline?

I do fly on EK 3 to 4 times a year and whatever flights I have been on, they have been nearly full at least on their 777's.

The thing is that the passengers will increase in the next 5 years and if their current flights are going full to at least the places I have been (Asia, South Africa and Europe) then how come thats an advantage? I do know that the 787 has a better fuel advantage than the 777, but the 777 carries more passengers.


On anything within its range envelope the 787-10 will have the lowest cost per seat I believe. That is why it makes a lot of sense.

As a family for EK the 789-10-77X make a good deal of sense. You can use the 9 to open routes for either the 10 or the 77X as it has the range for most of those routes. The 10 can go places a 77X wouldn’t make sense. The 77X can go places the 10 can’t reach and denser routes.

To me the key enabler are the very different ranges of the 9 and 10 as they give you a cost optimized design for most of your routes and a flexible route opener that can be a bit inefficient on shorter segments but could also open longer ones you want to make 77X-9 segments in the end.


I don't think so they are going with the 789, Tim Clark said its too small for them, but well with the 787-10 what current routes they can fly to or what new routes you think they can go?

I believe they can add some CIS countries, some Eastern European countries even though FlyDubai is flying to them, but I assume in 5 years the demand may increase.
 
User avatar
Slash787
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:37 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:08 pm

TheLion wrote:

Exactly. Just another example of Boeing fanboys getting overexcited after this order.


What this got to do with Boeing fanboys or Airbus fanboys? I really don't get this fight, both of them are amazing companies with great aircrafts, over the years as a Pilot I have flown the A310, B744, B757, A333 and now I currently fly the A346 and all of them have been amazing aircrafts. I even thought to apply on ME3 in thinking if I get a job on the A380 so I could fly another amazing aircraft but sadly there are no DEC for them at the moment, I love the 777, 787-10 and even the A350-1000.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 24631
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:08 pm

Slash787 wrote:
So well what current EK routes do you think the 787-10 will fly to and what new routes can it open to the airline?


Well per Tim Clark it can handle 83% of their current route network.
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:10 am

migair54 wrote:
chiki wrote:
What percentage of EK network will the 7810 be able to cover, i am sure this has been discussed before but not sure where.


Everything except some USA LAX, SFO, FLL, IAH, DFW, Brazil and New Zealand, so I guess more than 95%, However I don't think we will see the B787-10 in any ULR from DXB.

Geez, what can be worse than GRU-DXB in a 787 Y class???
G-EAOU!
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:31 am

osupoke07 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

787-10's what?


You keep commenting on "787-10s" what is the point you are getting at? Its unclear.


I think he or she is just nitpicking the apostrophe usage. 787-10's could be literally read as "787-10 is" or "787-10 has".


Hahah exactly. I can't stand it.

Here's hoping for a rematch in the Big 12 championship!
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:37 am

Slash787 wrote:

I don't think so they are going with the 789, Tim Clark said its too small for them, but well with the 787-10 what current routes they can fly to or what new routes you think they can go?



Sir TC says a lot of things. However, there is a firm reference to the order provision to select the 789, which would fit in with the lower end of Emirates' planned cabin configurations.
The first 40x 787s are likely all 787-10s, whereas the 60x options will be split between 787-9 and 787-10.

:)
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:24 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
If EK is the only airline in the world. Something has to give, my bet is on 777X.



Not necessarily. The 77X is coming to replace the 777-300-ERs on a 1-for-1 basis. That means no new net growth.

Plus, the 787-10 is a good fit beneath the 777s and sits above the 737-800s over at sister-airline flydubai. Although it may be entirely feasbile that a 787-8 selection could be something Emirates considers too, unless of course they opt for 797, whatever that emerges as!
 
ap305
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 4:03 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:02 am

Apparently the modified a350 layout was shown too late in the competition to work against the -10 ...
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... a3-443270/

"It was quite a shock to me," he says, claiming that he "didn't know about it" – even though the -900 was competing for the Emirates fleet deal – and had asked at the time: "Why didn't you tell me?"
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:21 am

ap305 wrote:
Apparently the modified a350 layout was shown too late in the competition to work against the -10 ...
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... a3-443270/

"It was quite a shock to me," he says, claiming that he "didn't know about it" – even though the -900 was competing for the Emirates fleet deal – and had asked at the time: "Why didn't you tell me?"


That being the case, then Airbus deserved to lose this campaign pulling an 11th hour stunt like that. EK will have done their due diligence months ago - I recall a number of threads here which I cant find right now, in the summer about Emirates having already selected the 787-10 with the (then possible) announcment coming at this show.

Between this and Mr Enders/Bregier leaving the air show before it has even concluded, I wonder whether the weight of the corruption thing is bearing down? Any other thoughts?
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:28 am

I wonder how much technical input about the GEnx engines neighboring Etihad provided to their Emirates cousins re the 787-9? :scratchchin:
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 25527
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:28 am

Bricktop wrote:
So much for the notion touted here that EK wouldn't touch the 787-10 because its performance would suck out of DXB.


The performance issue is still present, but Emirates will get around that by not operating at maximum weights:

"I think things have moved on," he says, indicating that the agreement is not conditional on technological performance enhancements to the engines. "I don't like thrust bumps anyway."

The early margins released when the 787-9 emerged subsequently transformed into "stellar economics", Clark points out, and he is confident the airline will not face operational limitations. He signals that the 787-10 would be used on 7-8.5h sectors where the carrier is looking to raise frequency.

"We don't need maximum take-off weight to do the missions of the 777-8 and -9," he adds, referring to the future 777X deliveries. "We'll be able to operate at derates."


Ref https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... a3-443270/

A few years ago we had the same Mr. Clark on record asking Boeing to increase engine thrust so the aircraft could operate at maximum weights year allround, but apparently the business case has changed.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4896
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:57 am

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
...The 77X is coming to replace the 777-300-ERs on a 1-for-1 basis.


That doesn't fit with 787-10 suits 83% routes and 787-10's impeccable economics comment. 787:777 ratio should be 80:20, going forward.

Another hypothesis/opinion/theory.
EK and RR are the winners. A380 and 777x are the losers. Cancel remaining A380 orders, swap Trent-900(A380) contracts for Trent-1000-10(787-10), push out 777X deliveries by few years (or) swap for more 787s. Basically, EK screwed both companies while keeping STC's promise to the motherland.
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:48 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Another hypothesis/opinion/theory.
EK and RR are the winners. A380 and 777x are the losers. Cancel remaining A380 orders, swap Trent-900(A380) contracts for Trent-1000-10(787-10), push out 777X deliveries by few years (or) swap for more 787s. Basically, EK screwed both companies while keeping STC's promise to the motherland.


Considering both Boeing and Emirates are on record stating that the carrier will be the first to take delivery of the 777-9 sometime in 2020, I dont see them pushig out deliveries since the initial production rate will be woefully low, so they wont have a lot to absorb for at least a year.

But with Leahy alone in Dubai, it does appear that it is Airbus that Sir Clark has royally shafted.
 
bigjku
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:22 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Another hypothesis/opinion/theory.
EK and RR are the winners. A380 and 777x are the losers. Cancel remaining A380 orders, swap Trent-900(A380) contracts for Trent-1000-10(787-10), push out 777X deliveries by few years (or) swap for more 787s. Basically, EK screwed both companies while keeping STC's promise to the motherland.


Considering both Boeing and Emirates are on record stating that the carrier will be the first to take delivery of the 777-9 sometime in 2020, I dont see them pushig out deliveries since the initial production rate will be woefully low, so they wont have a lot to absorb for at least a year.

But with Leahy alone in Dubai, it does appear that it is Airbus that Sir Clark has royally shafted.


I think it’s just wishful thinking that the 77X is impacted by this on the part of some.
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 1509
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:32 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
...The 77X is coming to replace the 777-300-ERs on a 1-for-1 basis.


That doesn't fit with 787-10 suits 83% routes and 787-10's impeccable economics comment. 787:777 ratio should be 80:20, going forward.

Another hypothesis/opinion/theory.
EK and RR are the winners. A380 and 777x are the losers. Cancel remaining A380 orders, swap Trent-900(A380) contracts for Trent-1000-10(787-10), push out 777X deliveries by few years (or) swap for more 787s. Basically, EK screwed both companies while keeping STC's promise to the motherland.


You need get off this "777X is not the future" crap you're on. EK will take the 777X and they will have more 777s in their fleet for the foreseeable future. Especially if A380 production dies out, the 777X becomes even more of a necessity.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:33 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
So much for the notion touted here that EK wouldn't touch the 787-10 because its performance would suck out of DXB.


The performance issue is still present, but Emirates will get around that by not operating at maximum weights:

"I think things have moved on," he says, indicating that the agreement is not conditional on technological performance enhancements to the engines. "I don't like thrust bumps anyway."

The early margins released when the 787-9 emerged subsequently transformed into "stellar economics", Clark points out, and he is confident the airline will not face operational limitations. He signals that the 787-10 would be used on 7-8.5h sectors where the carrier is looking to raise frequency.

"We don't need maximum take-off weight to do the missions of the 777-8 and -9," he adds, referring to the future 777X deliveries. "We'll be able to operate at derates."


Ref https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... a3-443270/

A few years ago we had the same Mr. Clark on record asking Boeing to increase engine thrust so the aircraft could operate at maximum weights year allround, but apparently the business case has changed.



Seems to me that Mr Clark will say what he needs to say. If he wants to cancel a 70 aircraft order he will use only a small portion of the order as an excuse. If he wants to get more discounts he will use the cancelled frame as competition to the obvious choice. He may not be as brazen as Al Baker, but he will say what he needs to at the time for the benefit of his airline.

The thrust was a problem until it wasn't a problem. That is very much in the league of Al Akbar and his sayings in the past few years.
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:42 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
You need get off this "777X is not the future" crap you're on. EK will take the 777X and they will have more 777s in their fleet for the foreseeable future. Especially if A380 production dies out, the 777X becomes even more of a necessity.


+1

Your last sentence there is pretty much a perfect summation. :thumbsup:
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 4896
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:48 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
You need get off this "777X is not the future" crap you're on. EK will take the 777X and they will have more 777s in their fleet for the foreseeable future. Especially if A380 production dies out, the 777X becomes even more of a necessity.


+1

Your last sentence there is pretty much a perfect summation. :thumbsup:


Seems to be well versed in my views for someone joined yesterday. Alt-ID???
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 7347
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:53 pm

ap305 wrote:
Apparently the modified a350 layout was shown too late in the competition to work against the -10 ...
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... a3-443270/
[

Will try to dig around to get additional details on this 10 abreast A350, I am assuming that they still wanted to maintain their 18" seats as the minimum required on an Airbus a/c.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 7295
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:05 pm

par13del wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Apparently the modified a350 layout was shown too late in the competition to work against the -10 ...
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... a3-443270/
[

Will try to dig around to get additional details on this 10 abreast A350, I am assuming that they still wanted to maintain their 18" seats as the minimum required on an Airbus a/c.

I think it was just the standard A350 10Y layout. I believe he was referring to the modified bulkhead (pushed further back to allow more space for seats) when he meant it was shown too late.
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:31 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Seems to be well versed in my views for someone joined yesterday. Alt-ID???


Sorry, I dont know you - my reference was to the last quoted sentence: "Especially if A380 production dies out, the 777X becomes even more of a necessity.".

I was concurring with the previous poster. :smile: :thumbsup:
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 25527
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:13 pm

ap305 wrote:
Apparently the modified a350 layout was shown too late in the competition to work against the -10 ...
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... a3-443270/

"It was quite a shock to me," he says, claiming that he "didn't know about it" – even though the -900 was competing for the Emirates fleet deal – and had asked at the time: "Why didn't you tell me?"


As http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... s-continue adds to the story:

The airline also considered the A350-900, but was not happy with some aspects of the interior configuration. Only in early November Airbus showed a new layout with the rear pressure bulkhead moved aft by 2.5 feet. Clark complained to Airbus that the design should have been on the table earlier because it could have changed the picture completely. But by that time the commitment to Boeing had already been made.


Airbus has been proposing different cabin changes for years, like this slide in 2015. Emirates has been studying the A350 for years as well. Therefore it is difficult to buy this story about STC being surprised about cabin changes.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
pabloeing
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:17 pm

¿New citires with the B78X?.....¿like OPO,AGP,LYS,etc.......?
 
ap305
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 4:03 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:23 pm

KarelXWB wrote:

As http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... s-continue adds to the story:

The airline also considered the A350-900, but was not happy with some aspects of the interior configuration. Only in early November Airbus showed a new layout with the rear pressure bulkhead moved aft by 2.5 feet. Clark complained to Airbus that the design should have been on the table earlier because it could have changed the picture completely. But by that time the commitment to Boeing had already been made.


Airbus has been proposing different cabin changes for years, like this slide in 2015. Emirates has been studying the A350 for years as well. Therefore it is difficult to buy this story about STC being surprised about cabin changes.


What the heck is he saying? He had no problems cancelling all those firm a350s. If he thinks that the extra couple of rows of seating is enough to tilt the contest why did he not back off from the 787 deal.
 
bigjku
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:36 pm

ap305 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:

As http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... s-continue adds to the story:

The airline also considered the A350-900, but was not happy with some aspects of the interior configuration. Only in early November Airbus showed a new layout with the rear pressure bulkhead moved aft by 2.5 feet. Clark complained to Airbus that the design should have been on the table earlier because it could have changed the picture completely. But by that time the commitment to Boeing had already been made.


Airbus has been proposing different cabin changes for years, like this slide in 2015. Emirates has been studying the A350 for years as well. Therefore it is difficult to buy this story about STC being surprised about cabin changes.


What the heck is he saying? He had no problems cancelling all those firm a350s. If he thinks that the extra couple of rows of seating is enough to tilt the contest why did he not back off from the 787 deal.


Because they bought the plane they wanted in the end. I suspect this is more or less a warning about constantly changing the pitch when you are selling something that takes detailed evaluation. As someone who from time to time has to evaluate vendor proposals nothing is more obnoxious than the vendor who sends you multiple revisions of things through the process. It just makes things drag on forever.
 
ap305
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 4:03 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:43 pm

bigjku wrote:
Because they bought the plane they wanted in the end. I suspect this is more or less a warning about constantly changing the pitch when you are selling something that takes detailed evaluation. As someone who from time to time has to evaluate vendor proposals nothing is more obnoxious than the vendor who sends you multiple revisions of things through the process. It just makes things drag on forever.


Clark is making it very clear that the cabin changes shifted the suitability of the a350 vs 787-10 for Ek's needs. He is saying that he could not back out of the 787 commitment at that stage. I am only questioning his line of argument over the last point.... I am not sure where you are reading this as a warning to Airbus about delaying procurement decisions?
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 25527
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:46 pm

bigjku wrote:
As someone who from time to time has to evaluate vendor proposals nothing is more obnoxious than the vendor who sends you multiple revisions of things through the process. It just makes things drag on forever.


True. The hard part is that other customers ask for changes, and cannot be ignored either.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 1259
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:47 pm

ap305 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Because they bought the plane they wanted in the end. I suspect this is more or less a warning about constantly changing the pitch when you are selling something that takes detailed evaluation. As someone who from time to time has to evaluate vendor proposals nothing is more obnoxious than the vendor who sends you multiple revisions of things through the process. It just makes things drag on forever.


Clark is making it very clear that the cabin changes shifted the suitability of the a350 vs 787-10 for Ek's needs. He is saying that he could not back out of the 787 commitment at that stage. I am only questioning his line of argument over the last point.... I am not sure where you are reading this as a warning to Airbus about delaying procurement decisions?


While Clark did have strong language, I don't think he necessarily meant EK would have ordered the A350 vs the 787-10. Instead, I think he means that it might have changed the analysis because what was proposed was important and wanted to consider it.

Yes, this was a warning to Airbus, and other OEMs, to basically come forward with your better proposals earlier and not try a hail mary.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:47 pm

To me this is a bellwether order as if any airline could have used the added seats and thrust offered by the 350J it was EK.

I think the 10 will dominate the huge volume of 7-8 hr wb routes. 330neo will get 10% of the market. The 10 is to 330neo what the 321lr is to the -9.

Good thing for ab that the market for 32xx ac is so huge.
 
bigjku
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:50 pm

ap305 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Because they bought the plane they wanted in the end. I suspect this is more or less a warning about constantly changing the pitch when you are selling something that takes detailed evaluation. As someone who from time to time has to evaluate vendor proposals nothing is more obnoxious than the vendor who sends you multiple revisions of things through the process. It just makes things drag on forever.


Clark is making it very clear that the cabin changes shifted the suitability of the a350 vs 787-10 for Ek's needs. He is saying that he could not back out of the 787 commitment at that stage. I am only questioning his line of argument over the last point.... I am not sure where you are reading this as a warning to Airbus about delaying procurement decisions?


There may be a variety of reasons they couldn’t back out. But the fundamental in the end seems to be they didn’t want to make any changes. He said it “could have”. I suspect if it “would have” rather than could and nothing was signed they make the change.

I take it as a warning because he basically said that waiting till that late caused problems. It’s a risk you take as a vendor when you make changes late in the process.

He most certainly didn’t say it would have changes anything.
 
ap305
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 4:03 am

Re: Emirates places order for 40 787-10's

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:59 pm

He most certainly does say it could have "changed the picture completely". There is also no need to mention it being too late if it did not have the potential for a material impact on the final choice. No one is questioning the 787-10's economics or suitability however Clark's statement is certainly not something that can be dismissed in the context of the order.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos