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DWC
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:47 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We were told in the corruption thread that all Airbus deals involving "middlemen" were on hold and are being re-checked for compliance.

Maybe we are seeing an impact of that.


Apparently Airbus cannot sell aircraft without the use of middleman, so presumably there won't be any new orders for a very long time until the sale department has been schaken up.


Yes, it is I who posted it after translating a usually very well-informed professional newspaper.
More to the point, middlemen are necessary in many occasions, not least because due to the expansion of the commercial aircrafts market, Leahy & his team ( same for Boeing btw ) just do not have the time to be everywhere with so many sales campaigns. So they must delegate. The article mentionned middlemen in the tune of 20% of the deals, which is surprising low compared to military deals ( not just military aircrafts ) & some countries need many actors to be "convinced". The Tanaka scandal linked to the L-1011 is just one example & bribes will not go away just because US & EU regulations say so. In fact, in the French accounting system, there is ( or was when I was a student ) an accounting line for "commissions" that needed no documents as long as the CEOs would vouch for it, necessary to seal deals & that was acknowledged in law.
Independently of this, Airbus have an immense backlog & slow sales may be due to that in part as well.
But the main reason may well be Ender's decision to scrap the SMO.
Last edited by DWC on Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Arion640
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
I have a feeling this is going to be a pretty bad year for Airbus orders. Unfortunate but not the end of the world. Hopefully we get a surprise in the next couple of days.

We were told in the corruption thread that all Airbus deals involving "middlemen" were on hold and are being re-checked for compliance.

Maybe we are seeing an impact of that.


Is it possible we could see an MOU?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
I have a feeling this is going to be a pretty bad year for Airbus orders. Unfortunate but not the end of the world. Hopefully we get a surprise in the next couple of days.

We were told in the corruption thread that all Airbus deals involving "middlemen" were on hold and are being re-checked for compliance.

Maybe we are seeing an impact of that.


Which itself would be quite telling on how Airbus gained its orders.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
Which itself would be quite telling on how Airbus gained its orders.


No, it would just tell that now they 200% sure from a compliance perspective.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:32 pm

Jayafe wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Which itself would be quite telling on how Airbus gained its orders.


No, it would just tell that now they 200% sure from a compliance perspective.

Was that compliance in effect before the Paris Air Show, which any objective observer would say was to be kind less than stellar for Airbus?
 
bigjku
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:37 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased


This seems crazy to me from a financial standpoint for Airbus. Unless production rates rise aren’t they building each aircraft for a loss? So you are losing money building them and presumably on the buy backs, otherwise they wouldn’t want Airbus to do it anyway I wouldn’t think.
 
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Polot
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:23 pm

bigjku wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased


This seems crazy to me from a financial standpoint for Airbus. Unless production rates rise aren’t they building each aircraft for a loss? So you are losing money building them and presumably on the buy backs, otherwise they wouldn’t want Airbus to do it anyway I wouldn’t think.

To be frank it is not like Airbus has much leverage in the situation. It is either get EK to order more A380s or we are looking at the end of the line.
 
bigjku
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:30 pm

Polot wrote:
bigjku wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased


This seems crazy to me from a financial standpoint for Airbus. Unless production rates rise aren’t they building each aircraft for a loss? So you are losing money building them and presumably on the buy backs, otherwise they wouldn’t want Airbus to do it anyway I wouldn’t think.

To be frank it is not like Airbus has much leverage in the situation. It is either get EK to order more A380s or we are looking at the end of the line.


That is my question though. You sell 35 of them and unless you increase rates you don’t make money on it. To keep open a line on which you aren’t making money. Why?

At some point you have to see a major jump in orders coming to bother continuing with it I would think. Why keep burning cash?
 
fsabo
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:30 pm

Polot wrote:
bigjku wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased


This seems crazy to me from a financial standpoint for Airbus. Unless production rates rise aren’t they building each aircraft for a loss? So you are losing money building them and presumably on the buy backs, otherwise they wouldn’t want Airbus to do it anyway I wouldn’t think.

To be frank it is not like Airbus has much leverage in the situation. It is either get EK to order more A380s or we are looking at the end of the line.


I doubt airbus can really do much here. EK will internally decide wether to continue with the A380 or move all their eggs to the 777X basket. We will see.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:35 pm

Wow, 59 posts and no orders to announce so far!
 
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Polot
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:44 pm

bigjku wrote:
That is my question though. You sell 35 of them and unless you increase rates you don’t make money on it. To keep open a line on which you aren’t making money. Why?

At some point you have to see a major jump in orders coming to bother continuing with it I would think. Why keep burning cash?

The A380 was a huge, prestigious, project for Airbus and acted as a symbol of the strength and innovation of a united Europe (just look at how many European leaders were present at the A380's rollout, and compare to the A350's much more understated affair). Shutting the line 15-20 years after the start of commercial operations would be an embarrassment.

The A380 may cost Airbus cash, but it is not a huge significant drain on the coffers causing Airbus financial distress. They are going to try and keep the program alive for as ling as possible even if technically it may not the most financially rewarding thing to do.
 
scotron11
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:45 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Wow, 59 posts and no orders to announce so far!


Yup, 2017 is a year Airbus will want to forget! Im wondering if the A380 deal will even happen. Air Show is a walk for Boeing with the 787-10 order....has it ever happened before, that an OEM got no orders at an Air Show? :o
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:47 pm

scotron11 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Wow, 59 posts and no orders to announce so far!


Yup, 2017 is a year Airbus will want to forget! Im wondering if the A380 deal will even happen. Air Show is a walk for Boeing with the 787-10 order....has it ever happened before, that an OEM got no orders at an Air Show? :o


Well to be fair that was just day one! Plus Airbus always has it's fifth quarter to hit back at Boeing
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:48 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Well to be fair that was just day one! Plus Airbus always has it's fifth quarter to hit back at Boeing


Given the length of the fraud investigation, don't expect new orders to come for a long time.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:51 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Well to be fair that was just day one! Plus Airbus always has it's fifth quarter to hit back at Boeing


Given the length of the fraud investigation, don't expect new orders to come for a long time.


Would this affect current sales campaigns?
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:53 pm

bigjku wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased


This seems crazy to me from a financial standpoint for Airbus. Unless production rates rise aren’t they building each aircraft for a loss? So you are losing money building them and presumably on the buy backs, otherwise they wouldn’t want Airbus to do it anyway I wouldn’t think.


I remember Airbus making similar deals on the A340.
 
IranianMan123
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:54 pm

scotron11 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Wow, 59 posts and no orders to announce so far!


Yup, 2017 is a year Airbus will want to forget! Im wondering if the A380 deal will even happen. Air Show is a walk for Boeing with the 787-10 order....has it ever happened before, that an OEM got no orders at an Air Show? :o

The show just started. Airbus will certainly get orders.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:57 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
scotron11 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Wow, 59 posts and no orders to announce so far!


Yup, 2017 is a year Airbus will want to forget! Im wondering if the A380 deal will even happen. Air Show is a walk for Boeing with the 787-10 order....has it ever happened before, that an OEM got no orders at an Air Show? :o


Well to be fair that was just day one! Plus Airbus always has it's fifth quarter to hit back at Boeing


Airbus has a number of press conferences for other days scheduled.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:57 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Siddar wrote:
380 deal is being rushed in my oppion to beat the coming price discovery of second hand 380s. Emirates and Airbus want to place a large order now. Before the true leasing value of planes catches up to them.

EK would be ordering not a leasing company. Leasing deals than happen around delivery not at the time of order.

fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased.


EK finances a number of their A380s via sale-and-lease-back deals with companies (Doric / Nimrod, Dr. Peters, etc.) who sell shares in the plane to investors to cover the capital cost of purchasing the frame. With the A380 re-lease market looking a bit soft at the moment, their could be a future potential impact on the return those companies are able to offer their investors (and therefore those investors are less-inclined to invest) those companies could want Airbus to take those frames back when they come off lease before they commit to financing more new frames.
 
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PW100
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:02 pm

seahawk wrote:
Which itself would be quite telling on how Airbus gained its orders.

Perhaps the same way Boeing did/does . . . ?
 
727200
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:06 pm

[code][/code]

Its possible that Boeing conducts their business in same manor as Airbus, but reality is only Airbus under investigation.
 
Arion640
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:09 pm

Emirates are announcing something else tomorrow, probably product related than anything else.
 
bigjku
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:10 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
bigjku wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased


This seems crazy to me from a financial standpoint for Airbus. Unless production rates rise aren’t they building each aircraft for a loss? So you are losing money building them and presumably on the buy backs, otherwise they wouldn’t want Airbus to do it anyway I wouldn’t think.


I remember Airbus making similar deals on the A340.


It would make sense to me if you flipped a customer into a new product line. I don’t get a deal that effectively spends money to prop up the used price of an asset to feed orders into a line losing money.

If they flipped them into A350-1000 or something it would make more sense to me.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:37 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Emirates are announcing something else tomorrow, probably product related than anything else.


The new First Class hard product is present on their 777-300ER on display so it could be the formal unveiling of that cabin if it is not order-related.
 
Olddog
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:41 pm

Probably no A380 deal that show. As EK has chosen 787 over 350, Airbus will probably not agree to cut a non profitable deal on the A380.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:41 pm

Olddog wrote:
Probably no A380 deal that show. As EK has chosen 787 over 350, Airbus will probably not agree to cut a non profitable deal on the A380.


That doesn't make any sense.
 
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OA940
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:45 pm

So Boeing did better in Paris, and has now won EK's bid. Damn that must sting for Airbus. I sure hope we see some A350/A380 orders in DAS, but idk now.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:11 pm

I still believe we will see an A380 order in the next few days.
EK tries to announce most of their orders at the Dubai Airshow, and with A380 desperately requiring an order of some sort, EK will announce something soon.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:22 pm

from an Emirates pilot: The A380 deal is tomorrow.
 
kurtverbose
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:37 pm

The telegraph reporting it's for 17.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:37 pm

kurtverbose wrote:
The telegraph reporting it's for 17.


The UK supporting Europe, as usual, specially from a Pro-Brexit "paper" :stirthepot:
 
fpetrutiu
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:22 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
I still believe we will see an A380 order in the next few days.
EK tries to announce most of their orders at the Dubai Airshow, and with A380 desperately requiring an order of some sort, EK will announce something soon.


Who needs a 380 order desperately? EK or Airbus? EK could decide to stick to the 777X and 787's if they wanted to, the problem is airport congestion and the A380's are great for their premium offerings. But at the end of the day, EK will do what is best for them, regardless who need an order desperately.
 
bigjku
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:29 pm

fpetrutiu wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:
I still believe we will see an A380 order in the next few days.
EK tries to announce most of their orders at the Dubai Airshow, and with A380 desperately requiring an order of some sort, EK will announce something soon.


Who needs a 380 order desperately? EK or Airbus? EK could decide to stick to the 777X and 787's if they wanted to, the problem is airport congestion and the A380's are great for their premium offerings. But at the end of the day, EK will do what is best for them, regardless who need an order desperately.


I think it’s actually the airline and finance partners that needs it more than Airbus by far. It’s an odd situation. Emirates and their finance partners have so much tied up in the A380 they can’t just let it go to zero at the end of leases. Plus the aircraft is essential to how they currently operate. It has to be kept viable.

For Airbus unless there is an end game that results in them being able to raise production rates and make money it seems like something they are doing for prestige. Unless there is a large check they have to write for the RLI if they wrap up production.

The two sides are kind of prisoners to one another. It’s an odd relationship.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:37 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
I still believe we will see an A380 order in the next few days.
EK tries to announce most of their orders at the Dubai Airshow, and with A380 desperately requiring an order of some sort, EK will announce something soon.

dubaiamman243 wrote:
from an Emirates pilot: The A380 deal is tomorrow.

I also am still a believer in an upcoming EK A380 order, but Bloomberg ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -1-billion ) tells us:

The press release was printed, the media invited, the first dignitaries began filing into the room. Such was the scene on the first day of the Dubai Air Show, when Airbus SE had planned to unveil a keenly awaited lifeline for its A380 super jumbos from the aircraft’s biggest fan: Emirates.

Instead: nothing. In fact, worse than nothing. An initial delay, not unusual at these major signing ceremonies, gave way to confusion. Bewilderment turned to humiliation when a model aircraft was carried into the briefing room and the gray cloth covering it slipped off -- revealing the Boeing Co. logo on its tail.

Out of nowhere, the U.S. planemaker suddenly conquered Room 6 on the upper level of the main exhibition hall, with its representatives taking the stage. Airbus officials who dominated the room on arrival quietly slipped out during the press conference as their rival landed a stinging blow: Emirates committed to buying $15.1 billion of Boeing’s 787-10 Dreamliners. That was similar to the order value that Airbus had planned.

So we now know the EK A380 order was supposed to be announced on Day 1.

It begs the question: why didn't it happen?

Speculate away.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:42 pm

 
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Jayafe
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:43 pm

"Emirates committed to buying $15.1 billion of Boeing’s 787-10 Dreamliners. That was similar to the order value that Airbus had planned."

I am not sure about listing prices, but looks hard to believe that the cost of 40 787s is the same than +30 A380s (to avoid saying that the maths don't make any sense). Seems to be a lot more sensationalist than usually for Bloomberg (again, to avoid saying Wrong)...
 
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Polot
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:50 pm

Jayafe wrote:
"Emirates committed to buying $15.1 billion of Boeing’s 787-10 Dreamliners. That was similar to the order value that Airbus had planned."

I am not sure about listing prices, but looks hard to believe that the cost of 40 787s is the same than +30 A380s (to avoid saying that the maths don't make any sense). Seems to be a lot more sensationalist than usually for Bloomberg (again, to avoid saying Wrong)...

40 787-10s are about equal to 30 A380s at list prices.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:56 pm

Hoping it was just a last minute negotiation thing, and that we'll see the order tomorrow.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:56 pm

Polot wrote:
bigjku wrote:
That is my question though. You sell 35 of them and unless you increase rates you don’t make money on it. To keep open a line on which you aren’t making money. Why?

At some point you have to see a major jump in orders coming to bother continuing with it I would think. Why keep burning cash?

The A380 was a huge, prestigious, project for Airbus and acted as a symbol of the strength and innovation of a united Europe (just look at how many European leaders were present at the A380's rollout, and compare to the A350's much more understated affair). Shutting the line 15-20 years after the start of commercial operations would be an embarrassment.

The A380 may cost Airbus cash, but it is not a huge significant drain on the coffers causing Airbus financial distress. They are going to try and keep the program alive for as ling as possible even if technically it may not the most financially rewarding thing to do.


In a world without the 380, the 748 could have been a huge success and who knows what Boeing could have developed with all that cash. The program makes a lot more sense as a defensive move.
 
fsabo
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:07 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Polot wrote:
bigjku wrote:
That is my question though. You sell 35 of them and unless you increase rates you don’t make money on it. To keep open a line on which you aren’t making money. Why?

At some point you have to see a major jump in orders coming to bother continuing with it I would think. Why keep burning cash?

The A380 was a huge, prestigious, project for Airbus and acted as a symbol of the strength and innovation of a united Europe (just look at how many European leaders were present at the A380's rollout, and compare to the A350's much more understated affair). Shutting the line 15-20 years after the start of commercial operations would be an embarrassment.

The A380 may cost Airbus cash, but it is not a huge significant drain on the coffers causing Airbus financial distress. They are going to try and keep the program alive for as ling as possible even if technically it may not the most financially rewarding thing to do.


In a world without the 380, the 748 could have been a huge success and who knows what Boeing could have developed with all that cash. The program makes a lot more sense as a defensive move.


The A380 did put some pressure on boeing. I think it also helped the A350 program quite a bit. 787 execution was poor, but boeing learned lessons from it. Same goes for the A380. Lesson learned helped A350 execution quite a bit, plus some technologies developed on the A380 are used in the A350.

However, now that that has been fulfilled, I think it does not make much difference if the A380 lives or dies.
 
Kikko19
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:30 pm

So apart from the supposedly order of EK, anything else for airbus?
 
fcogafa
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:51 pm

kurtverbose wrote:
The telegraph reporting it's for 17.


The Telegraph yesterday said::
========
Sources close to the pan-European aerospace business say it is likely to be for 17 aircraft, worth between $7bn and $8bn (£5.3bn-£6.1bn), though with options the order could eventually be higher.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:54 pm

bigjku wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased


This seems crazy to me from a financial standpoint for Airbus. Unless production rates rise aren’t they building each aircraft for a loss? So you are losing money building them and presumably on the buy backs, otherwise they wouldn’t want Airbus to do it anyway I wouldn’t think.

Doubt the A380 is a loss making aircraft, just as the 787 isn't if you ignore set-up, development and infrastructure costs, especially when the bulk of A380 orders are to one customers in two configurations. Only 748F would be simpler to build.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:54 pm

Polot wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
"Emirates committed to buying $15.1 billion of Boeing’s 787-10 Dreamliners. That was similar to the order value that Airbus had planned."

I am not sure about listing prices, but looks hard to believe that the cost of 40 787s is the same than +30 A380s (to avoid saying that the maths don't make any sense). Seems to be a lot more sensationalist than usually for Bloomberg (again, to avoid saying Wrong)...

40 787-10s are about equal to 30 A380s at list prices.


Are they? $735 million dollars is not what I would call "about equal" :scratchchin:

787-10: US$306.1 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner

A380: US$432.6 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380
 
bigjku
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:00 pm

Planesmart wrote:
bigjku wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased


This seems crazy to me from a financial standpoint for Airbus. Unless production rates rise aren’t they building each aircraft for a loss? So you are losing money building them and presumably on the buy backs, otherwise they wouldn’t want Airbus to do it anyway I wouldn’t think.

Doubt the A380 is a loss making aircraft, just as the 787 isn't if you ignore set-up, development and infrastructure costs, especially when the bulk of A380 orders are to one customers in two configurations. Only 748F would be simpler to build.


Airbus has explicitly stated on a per frame basis they don’t make money building the A380. This is just in the basis of cost of materials and labor. It is massively different from the 787 program in that regard. So long as they holds true ever sale loses them money.
 
DWC
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:00 pm

bigjku wrote:
I think it’s actually the airline and finance partners that needs it more than Airbus by far. It’s an odd situation. Emirates and their finance partners have so much tied up in the A380 they can’t just let it go to zero at the end of leases. Plus the aircraft is essential to how they currently operate. It has to be kept viable.

For Airbus unless there is an end game that results in them being able to raise production rates and make money it seems like something they are doing for prestige. Unless there is a large check they have to write for the RLI if they wrap up production.

The two sides are kind of prisoners to one another. It’s an odd relationship.

In fact Airbus need to sell the A380 just as much as EK need it for their business model : no 777X brings them the same benefits & image with the public. In fact even Dubai needs it, someone in another thread intelligently remarked that Emirates is not just an airline, it is THE key to its recent & future development, I read somewhere too that all associated economic activity related to Emirates makes for some 25% of Dubai's GNP : which is huge ! And unprecedented.

In the case of Airbus, contrary to the many a.netters who stayed at Finance 101 & only reason in terms of programme bottom-lines & marginal profits, the A380 is Airbus' strategic response to check Boeing in the WB market they dominated : the 777 is one remarkable aircraft & even more so the 777X. But other than the 20 or so benefits the A380 brings to Airbus I posted elsewhere ( and you can bet there are more ), its sole existence does another 8 things worth the investment :

1. If you take out the A380 unrealistic orders, that's 270+ frames sold or 270 x 200 million ( I am being conservative, 50% of list price ) less passing through Boeing hands, a cash-flow that is used in many other ways than just to manufacture as many WBs ( i.e. capital management ) ;
2. conversely, that's some additional 270 x 200 million for Airbus in turn to place & play with ;
3. that's of course 270 x marginal profit on each frame not on Boeings books either, even if that costs Airbus money
4. more importantly, keeps the 777 & 748 prices lower than the premium Boeing could command in a monopoly ( with some repercussion on that of the 787 so that the different Boeing families do not cannibalize each other ) : somebody please calculate all the WB Boeing sold after the official launch of the A380 in year 2000 ( expect some 10 million per frame x some 2000 WB, minimum )
5. ravished the title of "Queen of the Skies" ! Call the A380 "Whale of the Heavens" or "Pig of the Skies" if you will & lipsticked if you so prefer, but in everybody's right mind the crowning masterpiece is now produced by Airbus with all the added luxury airlines have put in.
That alone is worth billions in worldwide marketing & communication budget.
6. point above led to increased orders on other frames ( and Airbus to become bigger than Boeing commercial aircrafts, who would have thought ? )
7. & thus increased - if not master negotiating power for Airbus for mega orders
8. which in turn repeat points 1, 2, 3.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:15 pm

Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Siddar wrote:
380 deal is being rushed in my oppion to beat the coming price discovery of second hand 380s. Emirates and Airbus want to place a large order now. Before the true leasing value of planes catches up to them.

EK would be ordering not a leasing company. Leasing deals than happen around delivery not at the time of order.

fcogafa wrote:
Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased.


EK finances a number of their A380s via sale-and-lease-back deals with companies (Doric / Nimrod, Dr. Peters, etc.) who sell shares in the plane to investors to cover the capital cost of purchasing the frame. With the A380 re-lease market looking a bit soft at the moment, their could be a future potential impact on the return those companies are able to offer their investors (and therefore those investors are less-inclined to invest) those companies could want Airbus to take those frames back when they come off lease before they commit to financing more new frames.

A new aircraft lease consists of two parts - the senior debt, funded by the lease participants (investors), and subordinate debt, funded by the leasing company's banks and funding syndicates.

Subordinate debt is generally, but not always, equivalent to the projected residual value at the end of the initial lease, less any final balloon payments. Final balloon payment composition and calculations are not fully disclosed (or even at all).

In a sale/leaseback, some leasing companies appear (and may actually) pay more for the aircraft than the airline customer. This may be because other costs have been added, like PBTH, fit-out, training, or simply the aircraft is being used to generate some working capital. These costs inflate the subordinate debt, and final balloon payment.

A380 customers are in three camps, and have accessed funding accordingly. Those who funded to use the aircraft until the end of economic life. Those who funded to use for a finite period. And those that opted for the former, and now want to switch to the latter (we all know how financially painful it can be to break a vehicle lease or loan, and the possible flow on tax and depreciation impact).

So we haven't seen a representative secondary market to-date, as all the attempted and actual disposals have been 'switchers' and orphan spec models.

Are there buybacks on some A380's? Likely. First of all there will be an OEM / third party buyback on behalf of the leasee (if a leasee directly purchases at end of lease, it can adversely, retrospectively, affect tax treatment of funding participants, financiers, leasee and leasor). Will this be partly or fully underwritten by key OEM's? And will there even be a net cost to the OEM's, after the final balloon payment, parts re-sale, scrap, etc?

My gut instinct is the A380 is rather more profitable per frame than posters believe. And Boeing's massive price realignment on new 777X purchases (excluding pre-existing options), gives the model future wriggle room, which IAG has been trying to exploit, so far, without success.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:29 pm

bigjku wrote:
Planesmart wrote:
bigjku wrote:

This seems crazy to me from a financial standpoint for Airbus. Unless production rates rise aren’t they building each aircraft for a loss? So you are losing money building them and presumably on the buy backs, otherwise they wouldn’t want Airbus to do it anyway I wouldn’t think.

Doubt the A380 is a loss making aircraft, just as the 787 isn't if you ignore set-up, development and infrastructure costs, especially when the bulk of A380 orders are to one customers in two configurations. Only 748F would be simpler to build.


Airbus has explicitly stated on a per frame basis they don’t make money building the A380. This is just in the basis of cost of materials and labor. It is massively different from the 787 program in that regard. So long as they holds true ever sale loses them money.

Neither has Airbus stated they are losing money on each A380. In fact authorised financial markets statements are extremely well crafted, and noticeably non-committal, presumably to temper future IAG and EK price expectations.
 
Airboe
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:50 pm

Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:32 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Well to be fair that was just day one! Plus Airbus always has it's fifth quarter to hit back at Boeing


Given the length of the fraud investigation, don't expect new orders to come for a long time.


Are you able to explain a little about this; Do you mean not any new ordets at all finalized, this year, next year, from some regions or world wide, or...?


KR
Airboe
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:52 pm

Planesmart wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Planesmart wrote:
Doubt the A380 is a loss making aircraft, just as the 787 isn't if you ignore set-up, development and infrastructure costs, especially when the bulk of A380 orders are to one customers in two configurations. Only 748F would be simpler to build.


Airbus has explicitly stated on a per frame basis they don’t make money building the A380. This is just in the basis of cost of materials and labor. It is massively different from the 787 program in that regard. So long as they holds true ever sale loses them money.

Neither has Airbus stated they are losing money on each A380. In fact authorised financial markets statements are extremely well crafted, and noticeably non-committal, presumably to temper future IAG and EK price expectations.


Airbus said in 2016 on going to 12 airframes a year that the profit or loss wouldn’t be material either way. One would presume that the cut to 8 wouldn’t help.

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