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qf789
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Dubai Air Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:37 am

The 2017 Dubai Air Show (12-16 November) is upon us and it would be appropriate to run main threads on the major MOU / Order announcements. This thread is for Airbus announcements.

Please add your comments below
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CHI87LG
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:34 am

The future of the A380 is on the stage here. Let's hope it works out, as the big bird hopefully still has her best years to come.
 
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DWC
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:36 am

CHI87LG wrote:
The future of the A380 is on the stage here. Let's hope it works out, as the big bird hopefully still has her best years to come.

Repasting my post from the Emirates thread :

The French equivalent of the Financial Times, "Les Echos" - professional & usually very well informed, extends the Reuters rumour stating the order is in the 30+ range ( plus as in more than 30 ). It also links EK's excellent financial recovery ( the +111% did not go unnoticed ) & states the order could be announced Sunday. Last paragraph ends by saying this could well be the A380s last order ever if Airbus do not convince other airlines to go for a Neo ( future replacements or Asian top-ups are not even mentionned ).
https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-services/air-defense/030853990803-emirates-pourrait-signer-une-nouvelle-grosse-commande-da380-ce-dimanche-2128908.php

Sunday will tell if this was news or hoax.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:38 am

CHI87LG wrote:
The future of the A380 is on the stage here. Let's hope it works out, as the big bird hopefully still has her best years to come.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

Would love see some China orders, but the Chinese are not big on ordering at Air Shows. Cannot think of any other Asian carrier that would order the A380.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:49 am

Sources says that EK A380 order will be between 36-38
 
beenalongtime
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:55 am

An order that size plus maybe another smaller one will nicely fill the gap until NEO can happen, at current rates. Fingers crossed!

Regards
b
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:00 pm

 
Eyad89
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:16 pm

pabloeing wrote:



That will keep the A380 assembly lines busy for good four to five years.

The question is, will they be the A380plus?
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:34 pm

dubaiamman243 wrote:
Sources says that EK A380 order will be between 36-38


So 37? :lol:
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StudiodeKadent
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:44 pm

pabloeing wrote:


The article used the word "may".

Seriously this proves nothing at all.

That said, EK tends to maintain young fleets so its perfectly plausible they'd replace older A380s with younger ones.

I'm not saying the A380 is bad. As someone who's been a passenger in the A380, its a very sexy jet that's quiet, comfy and awesome.

But the linked article has nothing definite in it at all. Just conjecture and rumor.

Of course if it turns out to be true that's great. Still... its an awfully "we have heard that..." "maybe...." "this could be happening..." article that is linked here.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:30 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
The article used the word "may".

Seriously this proves nothing at all.

I'm sure everybody gets that. But it's clear that a deal for A380s is in the final stages of negotiation, whether it fails at the final hurdle or not. And, as a discussion forum, further refinement of the scale of the potential deal is interesting. Not enough for a NEO sure. But surely big enough to pull the trigger on the Plus, at least those elements that interest EK. Enough to draw out a major PIP from RR? Enough to see Production back to 12 per year from say 2021? Given Emirates position that they wanted to see other orders, is it an indicator that one or two may be in the works?
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:03 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
But the linked article has nothing definite in it at all. Just conjecture and rumor.


Given Emirates themselves announced they were working on an order at the delivery of their 100th A380, it seems to be a bit more than just a rumour. The only question was whether the deal would be done in time to announce at the show. Articles like this (there have been others) suggest it will be.
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:04 pm

BaconButty wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
The article used the word "may".

Seriously this proves nothing at all.

I'm sure everybody gets that. But it's clear that a deal for A380s is in the final stages of negotiation, whether it fails at the final hurdle or not. And, as a discussion forum, further refinement of the scale of the potential deal is interesting. Not enough for a NEO sure. But surely big enough to pull the trigger on the Plus, at least those elements that interest EK. Enough to draw out a major PIP from RR? Enough to see Production back to 12 per year from say 2021? Given Emirates position that they wanted to see other orders, is it an indicator that one or two may be in the works?


We have to hope this is enough to "pull the trigger" on the plus. By the time the plus is ready, at current production rates, existing airlines will be ready to replace. The million dollar question is which carriers would reorder and whether the plus would attract new customers. Whether AF, QF, TG, CZ will reorder is surely in question. Apart from EK, one could expect orders from LH, KE, SQ, maybe NH. But QF have said no to further orders. EY is in a dismal state. QR and BA are possibles but we don't know what lies ahead for QR given recent events in the ME and BA have said the plane is too expensive and could be in the market for second hand frames rather than new aircraft. Airbus will need a bit more than that to proceed I'd imagine.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:23 pm

The first replacement for Emirates is 2020,but I believe they did not take many of the early birds.As such the replacement 'rush' won't happen for a further 5 years?One assumes that will be the time the output rate would be raised.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:28 pm

NZ321 wrote:
BA have said the plane is too expensive and could be in the market for second hand frames rather than new aircraft. Airbus will need a bit more than that to proceed I'd imagine.

So much for the "premium airline" Alex Cruz announced.
While the likes of DL do take good care of their old birds. no one in the world sees Delta as a premium airline.
Compared to the services of the ME3 & several other blue chip airlines, BA's stance is starting on the wrong premices : premium is expensive & has to be paid for.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:47 pm

NZ321 wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
I'm sure everybody gets that. But it's clear that a deal for A380s is in the final stages of negotiation, whether it fails at the final hurdle or not. And, as a discussion forum, further refinement of the scale of the potential deal is interesting. Not enough for a NEO sure. But surely big enough to pull the trigger on the Plus, at least those elements that interest EK. Enough to draw out a major PIP from RR? Enough to see Production back to 12 per year from say 2021? Given Emirates position that they wanted to see other orders, is it an indicator that one or two may be in the works?

We have to hope this is enough to "pull the trigger" on the plus. By the time the plus is ready, at current production rates, existing airlines will be ready to replace. The million dollar question is which carriers would reorder and whether the plus would attract new customers. Whether AF, QF, TG, CZ will reorder is surely in question. Apart from EK, one could expect orders from LH, KE, SQ, maybe NH. But QF have said no to further orders. EY is in a dismal state. QR and BA are possibles but we don't know what lies ahead for QR given recent events in the ME and BA have said the plane is too expensive and could be in the market for second hand frames rather than new aircraft. Airbus will need a bit more than that to proceed I'd imagine.

Surely 36-38 orders will be enough to pull the trigger on the parts of the Plus (winglets, aero improvements) that EK wants?

Otherwise, one has to wonder what it would take to make it happen.

Earlier, Airbus was saying that it would take a 2nd customer, but I don't think they were anticipating an order this big from EK.

Or perhaps they were, but perhaps they were still trying to use the Plus as bait to lure a new customer?

Personally I do not think another PIP will be coming via this EK order. RR has its hands full with T1000, TXWB-97 and T7000 issues, and our member lowbank suggests there just isn't any scope for improving the T900 without investing sums similar to those needed for a NEO. Given where things are, I can't see RR making the investment.
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:15 pm

EgyptAir 15xA320NEO family
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:28 pm

su184 wrote:
EgyptAir 15xA320NEO family


I assume that means they won't be taking the CS300 then.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:35 pm

New 350 orders for IB/BA maybe?
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:21 pm

su184 wrote:
EgyptAir 15xA320NEO family


I am sorry, that's a rumour, a theory, an order or just made up from pure speculation?
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:43 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
su184 wrote:
EgyptAir 15xA320NEO family


I assume that means they won't be taking the CS300 then.


Rumor has it EgyptAir will take both CS300 and A320neo.
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:17 pm

Until a market for used 380's develops, I believe financing will be a determining factor in potential new orders. (other than EK).
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:52 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
The article used the word "may".

Seriously this proves nothing at all.


It is a guarantee that EK will continue to order A380s as long as Airbus continues to offer it for sale. The frame works fantastic for them so they're going to keep operating them for as long as they can/
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:59 pm

admanager wrote:
Until a market for used 380's develops, I believe financing will be a determining factor in potential new orders. (other than EK).

That's a logical position. However, published syndicate and leasor performance shows minimal deviation from market trends (in fact if anything, the contrary), though with leases, outsiders are never 100% aware of all the detail in respect to side T&C's and the related financial impact.

Strangely, it's the 748 which has required direct funding support from Boeing.

Will be interesting to compare the financial markets pricing of the 777X, with much the same customer base as the A380, and the role of Boeing and GE funding.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:27 pm

Stitch wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
The article used the word "may".

Seriously this proves nothing at all.


It is a guarantee that EK will continue to order A380s as long as Airbus continues to offer it for sale. The frame works fantastic for them so they're going to keep operating them for as long as they can/


Where air travel is offered as a basic commodity by most carriers, the large number A380's in the Emirates fleet allows them offer the market a very distinct point of difference.

If I was Emirates I would take every opportunity available to position itself around the "positive" attributes of the aircraft.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:02 am

Kadish wrote:
New 350 orders for IB/BA maybe?


I currently fly the A346 for IB, the chances are less for them to order the A350-1000, but if they do then it would be pretty cool.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:50 am

scotron11 wrote:
CHI87LG wrote:
The future of the A380 is on the stage here. Let's hope it works out, as the big bird hopefully still has her best years to come.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

Would love see some China orders, but the Chinese are not big on ordering at Air Shows. Cannot think of any other Asian carrier that would order the A380.


ANA? SQ to replace their early build 380s for delivery in 3-4 years time?
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:36 am

Dominion301 wrote:
scotron11 wrote:
CHI87LG wrote:
The future of the A380 is on the stage here. Let's hope it works out, as the big bird hopefully still has her best years to come.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

Would love see some China orders, but the Chinese are not big on ordering at Air Shows. Cannot think of any other Asian carrier that would order the A380.


ANA? SQ to replace their early build 380s for delivery in 3-4 years time?


SQ already have new A380s on order to replace the early builds which have already began to leave the fleet.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:13 am

It'd be nice to see a top up order from SQ. They only have 5 on order if I recall with the next delivery imminent. But with the 779 inbound me thinks they may be looking at a smaller A380 fleet or not growing the fleet past the current 19 frames.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:26 am

I have a feeling this is going to be a pretty bad year for Airbus orders. Unfortunate but not the end of the world. Hopefully we get a surprise in the next couple of days.
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:39 am

According to Reuters, the A380 deal is still being worked on and no announcement is scheduled for today.
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:34 am

Emirates will shortly go live on twitter. maybe the A380 order is coming soon.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:40 am

The A350 vs. B787 order went to Boeing.
Almost unbelievable that Airbus couldn't win this one with a package deal eg A350 + A380.

Are other ME arlines going to order?
Saudia is itching for growth, so it wouldn't surprise me to see a big order coming from them.
 
Eyad89
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:09 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
The A350 vs. B787 order went to Boeing.
Almost unbelievable that Airbus couldn't win this one with a package deal eg A350 + A380.

Are other ME arlines going to order?
Saudia is itching for growth, so it wouldn't surprise me to see a big order coming from them.


Someone in the Arab thread noted that SV might go for a 779 order during this show.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:33 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
The A350 vs. B787 order went to Boeing.
Almost unbelievable that Airbus couldn't win this one with a package deal eg A350 + A380.

Why? Unless Airbus can figure out a magical way to put 9 abreast with 17" seats on the A350, you will never see it at EK.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:35 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
The A350 vs. B787 order went to Boeing.
Almost unbelievable that Airbus couldn't win this one with a package deal eg A350 + A380


Always very unlikely that EK would order the A350 after they cancelled their previous order for 70. Of course they needed to keep Boeing honest by making it a competition but the 787-10 looked ideal for them. Congratulations to Boeing for having the right plane for the job.

Geoff
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:46 pm

380 deal is being rushed in my oppion to beat the coming price discovery of second hand 380s.

There are allot of 380s with book value much higher then there secondary lease value.

Emirates and Airbus want to place a large order now. Before the true leasing value of planes catches up to them. Of course this involves playing a fast one on banks and leasers. The smart ones will be avoiding signing to fiance this deal until real value of second hand 380s become factually based and not theoretical.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:53 pm

airbazar wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
The A350 vs. B787 order went to Boeing.
Almost unbelievable that Airbus couldn't win this one with a package deal eg A350 + A380.

Why? Unless Airbus can figure out a magical way to put 9 abreast with 17" seats on the A350, you will never see it at EK.


What on earth do you mean?

There's 9 abreast at 18 inch now. If anythings that better for them.

I always felt the A350 was too much plan for getting abused on routes of 2 hours in length, while it's still not ideal for the 787-10 but it's got a more restricted range.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:55 pm

Siddar wrote:
380 deal is being rushed in my oppion to beat the coming price discovery of second hand 380s.

There are allot of 380s with book value much higher then there secondary lease value.

Emirates and Airbus want to place a large order now. Before the true leasing value of planes catches up to them. Of course this involves playing a fast one on banks and leasers. The smart ones will be avoiding signing to fiance this deal until real value of second hand 380s become factually based and not theoretical.


EK would be ordering not a leasing company. Leasing deals than happen around delivery not at the time of order.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:00 pm

So nothing from Airbus today?
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:01 pm

Siddar wrote:
380 deal is being rushed in my oppion to beat the coming price discovery of second hand 380s.

There are allot of 380s with book value much higher then there secondary lease value.

Emirates and Airbus want to place a large order now. Before the true leasing value of planes catches up to them. Of course this involves playing a fast one on banks and leasers. The smart ones will be avoiding signing to fiance this deal until real value of second hand 380s become factually based and not theoretical.


I think the financial markets are smart enough to know the risk associated with financing an A380.

....and as a consequence, a element of an Emirates A380 order will be based around financing arrangements and by default how the risk associated with owning the aircraft is mitigated.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:01 pm

Part of the A380 deal is said to be a part buy back of older frames, I was wondering how that will work if the aircraft are leased
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:02 pm

Siddar wrote:
380 deal is being rushed in my oppion to beat the coming price discovery of second hand 380s.

There are allot of 380s with book value much higher then there secondary lease value.

Emirates and Airbus want to place a large order now. Before the true leasing value of planes catches up to them. Of course this involves playing a fast one on banks and leasers. The smart ones will be avoiding signing to fiance this deal until real value of second hand 380s become factually based and not theoretical.


Yes, that's part of Game Theory.
It doesn't actually solve the problem of new second-hand constomers but will perception of their value.
Just like people are ready to trade a much valued physical good like a house or a car for a mere piece of paper or even an electronic wiring...
 
NZ321
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:12 pm

The EK 787-10 order makes a lot of sense. Will replace a lot of 77W flying on regional routes. A359 A35K is optimised for longer range. Let's see what comes in the next few days with the much anticipated A380 order.
 
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:16 pm

Slash787 wrote:
So nothing from Airbus today?

Not that I've heard, so far.
However.... there was an announcement regarding the C-series, and Airbus own 50.01% of that project so it could end up being mentioned here.

I took the less obvious approach and threw it into the forgotten black hole that is "DUBAI; Other manufacturers....."
Meh, somebody might read it... eventually. :roll:
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:19 pm

LoganTheBogan wrote:
I have a feeling this is going to be a pretty bad year for Airbus orders. Unfortunate but not the end of the world. Hopefully we get a surprise in the next couple of days.

We were told in the corruption thread that all Airbus deals involving "middlemen" were on hold and are being re-checked for compliance.

Maybe we are seeing an impact of that.
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
I'm sure everybody gets that. But it's clear that a deal for A380s is in the final stages of negotiation, whether it fails at the final hurdle or not. And, as a discussion forum, further refinement of the scale of the potential deal is interesting. Not enough for a NEO sure. But surely big enough to pull the trigger on the Plus, at least those elements that interest EK. Enough to draw out a major PIP from RR? Enough to see Production back to 12 per year from say 2021? Given Emirates position that they wanted to see other orders, is it an indicator that one or two may be in the works?

We have to hope this is enough to "pull the trigger" on the plus. By the time the plus is ready, at current production rates, existing airlines will be ready to replace. The million dollar question is which carriers would reorder and whether the plus would attract new customers. Whether AF, QF, TG, CZ will reorder is surely in question. Apart from EK, one could expect orders from LH, KE, SQ, maybe NH. But QF have said no to further orders. EY is in a dismal state. QR and BA are possibles but we don't know what lies ahead for QR given recent events in the ME and BA have said the plane is too expensive and could be in the market for second hand frames rather than new aircraft. Airbus will need a bit more than that to proceed I'd imagine.

Surely 36-38 orders will be enough to pull the trigger on the parts of the Plus (winglets, aero improvements) that EK wants?

Otherwise, one has to wonder what it would take to make it happen.

Earlier, Airbus was saying that it would take a 2nd customer, but I don't think they were anticipating an order this big from EK.

Or perhaps they were, but perhaps they were still trying to use the Plus as bait to lure a new customer?

Personally I do not think another PIP will be coming via this EK order. RR has its hands full with T1000, TXWB-97 and T7000 issues, and our member lowbank suggests there just isn't any scope for improving the T900 without investing sums similar to those needed for a NEO. Given where things are, I can't see RR making the investment.



I would just like to add some clarity so people understand how things happen.
RR works on a continuous improvement platform. PIPs being one, however improvements are made on an ongoing basis outside of a PIP.
I worked on a -ten component as part of the -ten programme which gave a performance improvement. That idea has already been put on the 84k, its in work on the T900 and will be done on the 97k next year as part of a manufacturability improvement. All three 84k, 97k and T900 are all outside of a PIP programme.
So what normally happens is good ideas get on other engines as part of other programmes of work, be that cost reduction, manufacturability, method changes, drawing updates.

What that means is there are not loads of modifications/ideas waiting for a PIP to be included, hence it's now not that easy to improve further. It can be done just the mods are more complex and therefore cost more.
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:25 pm

Revelation wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
I have a feeling this is going to be a pretty bad year for Airbus orders. Unfortunate but not the end of the world. Hopefully we get a surprise in the next couple of days.

We were told in the corruption thread that all Airbus deals involving "middlemen" were on hold and are being re-checked for compliance.

Maybe we are seeing an impact of that.


Apparently Airbus cannot sell aircraft without the use of middleman, so presumably there won't be any new orders for a very long time until the sale department has been schaken up.
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Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:39 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
So nothing from Airbus today?

Not that I've heard, so far.
However.... there was an announcement regarding the C-series, and Airbus own 50.01% of that project so it could end up being mentioned here.

I took the less obvious approach and threw it into the forgotten black hole that is "DUBAI; Other manufacturers....."
Meh, somebody might read it... eventually. :roll:


Worry not! Your efforts have not gone in vain!

I ventured into the abyss that is the "Dubai... - Other Manufacturers..." thread and read the post!

I'm adventurous and courageous like that... LOL
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
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QuawerAir
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:44 am

Re: Dubai AIr Show 2017 - Airbus Orders

Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:46 pm

I think it will not happen in Dubai Air Show 2017 but I would expect Finnair to order Airbus A320neo family aircraft as well as a few Airbus A350-1000s or more A350-900s in the future. A350-1000s might be necessary as AY have rights for only 7 weekly flights on its routes to Seoul, Beijing and Shanghai. Demand is increasing and is very good at the moment, aircraft on those routes fly with very good passenger load factor (over 90%). AY also plans to replace its current A320 family (excluding the most of A321s) by newer aircraft, both A320neo family and Boeing 737 MAX are considered, the first of which is most likely.
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