Etihad to drop Dallas DFW

dubaiamman243 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:32 am

From 25MAR18, Etihad will be dropping its flights between Abu Dhabi and Dallas Forth Worth. The decision has been dir to the route becoming financially unviable and the AA codeshare agreement has been cancelled.

CEO Peter has stated stated that after the AA agreement being cancelled, Etihad had no other option than to end the route.

FoxtrotSierra · Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:38 am

That is really unfortunate, I thought they would've been able to hold their own after having been established in the area for several years. AI is going to be totally screwed if they launch DFW, this pretty much eliminates any doubt that AI is heading to IAH.

The press release states that they are open to continuing the route if AA reverses the codeshare decision, but also states that this is "one of several adjustments that we are making to our US network in 2018 in order to improve system profitability. Further changes are possible as we monitor the full impact of the American Airlines codeshare cancellation on summer 2018 bookings."

Read: DFW is gone, ORD is in jeopardy, BOS is almost certainly an add.

http://www.etihad.com/en-us/about-us/et ... e-in-2018/

IndianicWorld · Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:14 am

By looking at the way things are currently playing out, EY seem to have reached their maximum capability really.

EY’s main competitors are seemingly better placed, with stronger networks to generate enough demand.

So many routes that are struggling to find traction, with a need to not chase volume but find a viable yield seems key. Seems a widespread issue for them, with the US routes certainly showing just how challenging it can be.

Even in It’s Australia, it has significantly reduced MEL capacity, whilst shifting additional capacity into SYD will be interesting to watch. SYD may well be a stretch too far for them soon trying to operate 2 x daily A380 up against 2 x daily QR (1 x a380, 1 x 77W) and 4 x daily EK (all a380). Hardly an inspiring proposition for them, especially as some of their brand value in the market has been diminished over the past year or so.

EY just don’t have the same network advantages, which makes things very hard for them to compete effectively.

aemoreira1981 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:17 am

This means that their B77L services only are to India and to Pakistan. I wonder if Air India might be interested in buying back those B77Ls, given that there are routes for which they need that range (i.e., DEL-SFO).

jasoncrh · Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:32 am

Why in earth do you think they'd consider BOS at this juncture?!?! No way

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
That is really unfortunate, I thought they would've been able to hold their own after having been established in the area for several years. AI is going to be totally screwed if they launch DFW, this pretty much eliminates any doubt that AI is heading to IAH.

The press release states that they are open to continuing the route if AA reverses the codeshare decision, but also states that this is "one of several adjustments that we are making to our US network in 2018 in order to improve system profitability. Further changes are possible as we monitor the full impact of the American Airlines codeshare cancellation on summer 2018 bookings."

Read: DFW is gone, ORD is in jeopardy, BOS is almost certainly an add.

http://www.etihad.com/en-us/about-us/et ... e-in-2018/

Irehdna · Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:00 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
This means that their B77L services only are to India and to Pakistan. I wonder if Air India might be interested in buying back those B77Ls, given that there are routes for which they need that range (i.e., DEL-SFO).

Agreed, AI needs the 77L on many of its current and upcoming routes.

Take DEL-ORD for example. While it is on the 77W, the route pushes the 77W to the very limit in terms of its range, and as a result, AI is forced to block seats and take a penalty on cargo. (This flight stays in the air for upwards of 15h30min, longer than flights like HKG-JFK, due to the presence of mountains making the route longer.)

For the DC I would imagine may have similar restrictions, though not as bad as ORD. I would imagine only JFK/EWR don't have any significant restrictions (if at all) on the 77W.

AI should have not sold the 77L; they should have densified it. They could still do this when they get back the 77Ls. Remove F, make J a better product (all-aisle access), and make Y 3-4-3. (Yes I know AI has one of the most spacious Y products in the business, buy 95% of passengers flying AI won't really care about this.)

Right now, AI can only start 3x LAX (along with the daily SFO flight) with its 3 77Ls. If it could acquire 5 more, the airline could:

commavia · Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:55 pm

No real surprise.

Of the three, Etihad was clearly the weakest at DFW, and the most susceptible to the loss of AA codeshare/interline feed. Qatar will obviously continue to enjoy at least interline feed with AA, plus the natural AA FF draw, given that both remain in oneworld, and Emirates obviously has the scale and power of the DXB hub. Etihad was the odd man out.

I doubt any of the ME3 were making much, if any, profit at DFW, anyway. Even with Emirates dropping from the A380 back down to the 777, there is still quite a bit of capacity between DFW and the Gulf. This should definitely help Qatar and Emirates.

stlgph · Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:47 pm

http://www.etihad.com/en-us/about-us/et ... e-in-2018/

I read this. This says nothing about adding Boston or services to Chicago being on the line. For real, let's not make stuff up.

aemoreira1981 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:21 pm

Irehdna wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This means that their B77L services only are to India and to Pakistan. I wonder if Air India might be interested in buying back those B77Ls, given that there are routes for which they need that range (i.e., DEL-SFO).

Agreed, AI needs the 77L on many of its current and upcoming routes.

Take DEL-ORD for example. While it is on the 77W, the route pushes the 77W to the very limit in terms of its range, and as a result, AI is forced to block seats and take a penalty on cargo. (This flight stays in the air for upwards of 15h30min, longer than flights like HKG-JFK, due to the presence of mountains making the route longer.)

For the DC I would imagine may have similar restrictions, though not as bad as ORD. I would imagine only JFK/EWR don't have any significant restrictions (if at all) on the 77W.

AI should have not sold the 77L; they should have densified it. They could still do this when they get back the 77Ls. Remove F, make J a better product (all-aisle access), and make Y 3-4-3. (Yes I know AI has one of the most spacious Y products in the business, buy 95% of passengers flying AI won't really care about this.)

Right now, AI can only start 3x LAX (along with the daily SFO flight) with its 3 77Ls. If it could acquire 5 more, the airline could:

1. Make DEL-ORD/IAD 77L
2. Make IAD Daily
3. Start 3x DEL-IAH/LAX/SEA

I have talked about 3-4-3 with a 33” pitch...matching the Dreamliner seat. The long-haul ops do very well for AI but lack of planes limits them. Another possibility might be to buy or lease Pakistan’s two B77Ls (since their YYZ route can be shifted to a B77W) for added lift. Other routes can be done with a B789. That makes AI and DL two airlines that have routes that need the range of the B77L.

audian · Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:03 pm

In addition to fact that they are not able to make profits out of this service, can we also attribute this as a step towards consolidation of both the airlines?

Spiderguy252 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:09 pm

Irehdna wrote:
AI should have not sold the 77L; they should have densified it. They could still do this when they get back the 77Ls. Remove F, make J a better product (all-aisle access), and make Y 3-4-3. (Yes I know AI has one of the most spacious Y products in the business, buy 95% of passengers flying AI won't really care about this.)

You're making it sound as if it's a done deal? EY didn't lease these birds from AI - they bought them outright.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I have talked about 3-4-3 with a 33” pitch...matching the Dreamliner seat. The long-haul ops do very well for AI but lack of planes limits them. Another possibility might be to buy or lease Pakistan’s two B77Ls (since their YYZ route can be shifted to a B77W) for added lift. Other routes can be done with a B789. That makes AI and DL two airlines that have routes that need the range of the B77L.

Air India should buy planes from Pakistan!?

That's sure to go down well...

AAvgeek744 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:49 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Irehdna wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This means that their B77L services only are to India and to Pakistan. I wonder if Air India might be interested in buying back those B77Ls, given that there are routes for which they need that range (i.e., DEL-SFO).

Agreed, AI needs the 77L on many of its current and upcoming routes.

Take DEL-ORD for example. While it is on the 77W, the route pushes the 77W to the very limit in terms of its range, and as a result, AI is forced to block seats and take a penalty on cargo. (This flight stays in the air for upwards of 15h30min, longer than flights like HKG-JFK, due to the presence of mountains making the route longer.)

For the DC I would imagine may have similar restrictions, though not as bad as ORD. I would imagine only JFK/EWR don't have any significant restrictions (if at all) on the 77W.

AI should have not sold the 77L; they should have densified it. They could still do this when they get back the 77Ls. Remove F, make J a better product (all-aisle access), and make Y 3-4-3. (Yes I know AI has one of the most spacious Y products in the business, buy 95% of passengers flying AI won't really care about this.)

Right now, AI can only start 3x LAX (along with the daily SFO flight) with its 3 77Ls. If it could acquire 5 more, the airline could:

1. Make DEL-ORD/IAD 77L
2. Make IAD Daily
3. Start 3x DEL-IAH/LAX/SEA

I have talked about 3-4-3 with a 33” pitch...matching the Dreamliner seat. The long-haul ops do very well for AI but lack of planes limits them. Another possibility might be to buy or lease Pakistan’s two B77Ls (since their YYZ route can be shifted to a B77W) for added lift. Other routes can be done with a B789. That makes AI and DL two airlines that have routes that need the range of the B77L.

Given the political tension between India and Pakistan, it's safe to say that option isn't on the table.

CHI787ORD · Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:27 pm

EY actually has the highest LF of all the ME3 at ORD. I know that doesn't translate to profit, but EY was at ORD before the other two and I think its one of EY's better performing U.S. routes.

vadodara · Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:57 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
This means that their B77L services only are to India and to Pakistan. I wonder if Air India might be interested in buying back those B77Ls, given that there are routes for which they need that range (i.e., DEL-SFO).

That may happen in more ways than you think.

For one, offer them back to AI. In addition, they might want to lease them to Jet Airways. Jet could also use them to deploy some capacity.

enilria · Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:08 pm

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
That is really unfortunate, I thought they would've been able to hold their own after having been established in the area for several years. AI is going to be totally screwed if they launch DFW, this pretty much eliminates any doubt that AI is heading to IAH.

The press release states that they are open to continuing the route if AA reverses the codeshare decision, but also states that this is "one of several adjustments that we are making to our US network in 2018 in order to improve system profitability. Further changes are possible as we monitor the full impact of the American Airlines codeshare cancellation on summer 2018 bookings."

Read: DFW is gone, ORD is in jeopardy, BOS is almost certainly an add.

http://www.etihad.com/en-us/about-us/et ... e-in-2018/

I would have bet money on PHL-DOH being gone before this. Imagine how bad that must be? I'm not sure you will see them add anything new. EY is in full reverse. I expect a deal with EK before long that reduces regional capacity.

Polot · Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:21 pm

enilria wrote:
I would have bet money on PHL-DOH being gone before this. Imagine how bad that must be? I'm not sure you will see them add anything new. EY is in full reverse. I expect a deal with EK before long that reduces regional capacity.

QR has the PHL market all to themselves, although I'm sure the loss of the AA codeshare is going to hit them hard. DFW is a bloodbath with all three of the ME3 serving it, DFW-AUH was probably hanging on by a thread even with the codeshare.

nc3rd · Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:44 pm

Maybe AA should now do the DFW DOH flight. If AA is still extending their code to Ethiad in ORD, perhaps they should seek for Etihad to do the same in DOH.

IrishAyes · Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:00 pm

Very sad news. EY is being rational in cutting long-haul services but with GRU, SFO and now DFW on the chopping block, one must question what their long-haul strategy will be moving forward. Given the nature of duplicacy with what QR and EK offer in terms of network structure, and the virtual alliance concept losing luster with AB gone, AZ in the toilet and 9W moving towards AF-KL/DL, then what really does EY offer? The merger idea may not seem as far fetched as it once was.

dfwjim1 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:21 pm

[quote="FoxtrotSierra"]That is really unfortunate, I thought they would've been able to hold their own after having been established in the area for several years. AI is going to be totally screwed if they launch DFW, this pretty much eliminates any doubt that AI is heading to IAH.

Just curious as to why AI would be totally screwed if they launched DFW? It seems like if Etihad does drop DFW and with the Metroplex's large Indian population AI would be in a good position to make DFW work for them. I have always thought DFW would be a good market for AI even with Etihad in the market.

Spiderguy252 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:28 pm

vadodara wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This means that their B77L services only are to India and to Pakistan. I wonder if Air India might be interested in buying back those B77Ls, given that there are routes for which they need that range (i.e., DEL-SFO).

That may happen in more ways than you think.

For one, offer them back to AI. In addition, they might want to lease them to Jet Airways. Jet could also use them to deploy some capacity.

Jet has 10 x 787-9s due, why would they take these 77Ls?

Sooner787 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:55 pm

I think ETIHAD and Emirates eventually merge or EK buys out EY,
however you want to phrase it.

Kinda sad we never saw EY's new livery at DFW

NichCage · Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:56 pm

Both SFO and DFW being cut from the network, pretty sad to hear.

Etihad Airways has been dropping quite a lot of routes though. They dropped ALA and SAW for example. And now both SFO and DFW are cut.

TerminalD · Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:13 pm

Polot wrote:
enilria wrote:
I would have bet money on PHL-DOH being gone before this. Imagine how bad that must be? I'm not sure you will see them add anything new. EY is in full reverse. I expect a deal with EK before long that reduces regional capacity.

QR has the PHL market all to themselves, although I'm sure the loss of the AA codeshare is going to hit them hard. DFW is a bloodbath with all three of the ME3 serving it, DFW-AUH was probably hanging on by a thread even with the codeshare.

There's zero local traffic PHL-DOH AND AA code share was at least 50% of the existing connect traffic according to data I see.

FoxtrotSierra · Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:25 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
Why in earth do you think they'd consider BOS at this juncture?!?! No way

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
That is really unfortunate, I thought they would've been able to hold their own after having been established in the area for several years. AI is going to be totally screwed if they launch DFW, this pretty much eliminates any doubt that AI is heading to IAH.

The press release states that they are open to continuing the route if AA reverses the codeshare decision, but also states that this is "one of several adjustments that we are making to our US network in 2018 in order to improve system profitability. Further changes are possible as we monitor the full impact of the American Airlines codeshare cancellation on summer 2018 bookings."

Read: DFW is gone, ORD is in jeopardy, BOS is almost certainly an add.

http://www.etihad.com/en-us/about-us/et ... e-in-2018/

Uh, isn’t it obvious? If you look on EY’s website, everything is with B6. They have to compensate for the loss of the AA codeshare somehow, and the best solution is to add BOS, because right now, EY is sending literally everything into JFK.

stlgph · Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:36 pm

You act as if the only source of passengers for Etihad is coming from connections in the U.S. via american carriers, which, as a global airline, is hardly the case.

The problem with Etihad is they really need a network of scale. They need something twice the size of their current network, or more, and is lacking in a scale of frequencies in order to make the whole thing work, such as Emirates.

The problem there - the network is not twice the size thus causing them problems to detract their network, rather than growing it to the size and scale needed.

drdisque · Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:44 pm

EY really just is the odd man out of the three in the US market.

QR has the AA codeshare and a big fleet of 787's that can make marginal destinations work.

EK has the B6 codeshare and a larger network where they can offer more destinations over Dubai and DXB simply has more O&D than the other two.

Maybe if EY had 788's they could make AUH-DFW work.

jfklganyc · Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:04 pm

Just the beginning.

Many of us knew the ME3 expansion was a bubble. And many others saw these 3 as the next heyday Pan Am.

9w748capt · Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:09 pm

Wow - even the ME3 can only survive so long on $600 US-India fares. EY really seem on their way out - either they expand again, or become an afterthought like GF.

NeBaNi · Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:27 pm

drdisque wrote:

QR has the AA codeshare and a big fleet of 787's that can make marginal destinations work.

Except Qatar's 787s don't have a crew rest, so they can't really fly to the US without blocking a number of seats for crew, as they do with BOS.

jasoncrh · Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:55 pm

What makes you think they want to grow at all? Chicago, New York, and Washington all have large Indian populations that can locally fill the planes. Washington gets the UAE diplomatic local traffic as well. Maybe they'll just settle with these three for daily service and the less than daily LAX service (to serve the Tehran and Indian markets) and be done with it. No need to fly to Boston and try to make way in another hyper competitive market, relying on somebody else for feed. Chances are low, if I were to bet on it.

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
Why in earth do you think they'd consider BOS at this juncture?!?! No way

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
That is really unfortunate, I thought they would've been able to hold their own after having been established in the area for several years. AI is going to be totally screwed if they launch DFW, this pretty much eliminates any doubt that AI is heading to IAH.

The press release states that they are open to continuing the route if AA reverses the codeshare decision, but also states that this is "one of several adjustments that we are making to our US network in 2018 in order to improve system profitability. Further changes are possible as we monitor the full impact of the American Airlines codeshare cancellation on summer 2018 bookings."

Read: DFW is gone, ORD is in jeopardy, BOS is almost certainly an add.

http://www.etihad.com/en-us/about-us/et ... e-in-2018/

Uh, isn’t it obvious? If you look on EY’s website, everything is with B6. They have to compensate for the loss of the AA codeshare somehow, and the best solution is to add BOS, because right now, EY is sending literally everything into JFK.

dfwjim1 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:39 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
What makes you think they want to grow at all? Chicago, New York, and Washington all have large Indian populations that can locally fill the planes. Washington gets the UAE diplomatic local traffic as well. Maybe they'll just settle with these three for daily service and the less than daily LAX service (to serve the Tehran and Indian markets) and be done with it. No need to fly to Boston and try to make way in another hyper competitive market, relying on somebody else for feed. Chances are low, if I were to bet on it.

I don't have the numbers in front of me but Dallas-Fort Worth has one of the largest Indian populations in the United States.

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
Why in earth do you think they'd consider BOS at this juncture?!?! No way

Uh, isn’t it obvious? If you look on EY’s website, everything is with B6. They have to compensate for the loss of the AA codeshare somehow, and the best solution is to add BOS, because right now, EY is sending literally everything into JFK.

dfwjim1 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:39 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
What makes you think they want to grow at all? Chicago, New York, and Washington all have large Indian populations that can locally fill the planes. Washington gets the UAE diplomatic local traffic as well. Maybe they'll just settle with these three for daily service and the less than daily LAX service (to serve the Tehran and Indian markets) and be done with it. No need to fly to Boston and try to make way in another hyper competitive market, relying on somebody else for feed. Chances are low, if I were to bet on it.

I don't have the numbers in front of me but Dallas-Fort Worth has one of the largest Indian populations in the United States.

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
Why in earth do you think they'd consider BOS at this juncture?!?! No way

Uh, isn’t it obvious? If you look on EY’s website, everything is with B6. They have to compensate for the loss of the AA codeshare somehow, and the best solution is to add BOS, because right now, EY is sending literally everything into JFK.

upwardfacing · Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:50 pm

Etihad is in poor financial condition with several poor investments. It's not a surprise to see them retrench.

Now may actually be the best time for the US carriers to separate the Gulf carriers from one another, instead of seeing them as a conjoined adversary.

A savvy move by DL/AA/UA would be to partner with EY, now that it is so weak, to compete with Emirates in those markets that they can't access viably via Europe.

TryToFlySomeday · Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:57 pm

AAvgeek744 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Irehdna wrote:

Agreed, AI needs the 77L on many of its current and upcoming routes.

Take DEL-ORD for example. While it is on the 77W, the route pushes the 77W to the very limit in terms of its range, and as a result, AI is forced to block seats and take a penalty on cargo. (This flight stays in the air for upwards of 15h30min, longer than flights like HKG-JFK, due to the presence of mountains making the route longer.)

For the DC I would imagine may have similar restrictions, though not as bad as ORD. I would imagine only JFK/EWR don't have any significant restrictions (if at all) on the 77W.

AI should have not sold the 77L; they should have densified it. They could still do this when they get back the 77Ls. Remove F, make J a better product (all-aisle access), and make Y 3-4-3. (Yes I know AI has one of the most spacious Y products in the business, buy 95% of passengers flying AI won't really care about this.)

Right now, AI can only start 3x LAX (along with the daily SFO flight) with its 3 77Ls. If it could acquire 5 more, the airline could:

1. Make DEL-ORD/IAD 77L
2. Make IAD Daily
3. Start 3x DEL-IAH/LAX/SEA

I have talked about 3-4-3 with a 33” pitch...matching the Dreamliner seat. The long-haul ops do very well for AI but lack of planes limits them. Another possibility might be to buy or lease Pakistan’s two B77Ls (since their YYZ route can be shifted to a B77W) for added lift. Other routes can be done with a B789. That makes AI and DL two airlines that have routes that need the range of the B77L.

Given the political tension between India and Pakistan, it's safe to say that option isn't on the table.

I think he meant that EY should buy 77Ls from AI and PK, not AI buy planes from PK...

Indians and Pakistanis in their home countries HATE each other. (Unlike abroad, where they're like family ironically.)

FoxtrotSierra · Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:01 pm

upwardfacing wrote:
Etihad is in poor financial condition with several poor investments. It's not a surprise to see them retrench.

Now may actually be the best time for the US carriers to separate the Gulf carriers from one another, instead of seeing them as a conjoined adversary.

A savvy move by DL/AA/UA would be to partner with EY, now that it is so weak, to compete with Emirates in those markets that they can't access viably via Europe.

DL has pushed their narrative way too far to go back now and AA would look super hypocritical if they reversed course now. I could definitely see UA try something with one of the ME3 as UA has proven itself to be better from a strategic perspective than DL or AA in the open skies debate. They have kept a fairly low profile which will definitely be advantageous should they decide to partner with them, and Oscar Munoz is much more open to the idea of cooperation with them than EB or DP. UA also flies EWR-DEL/BOM successfully, so the classic argument refuted by the ME3 of “being unable to compete” is somewhat confirmed by UA’s success in India, which I imagine puts them on better terms with the ME3 than DL or AA.

LH658 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:03 pm

wow sad moved SFO frequency too, DFW, then ended it. Well maybe they see after that date DFW will not be worth it economically. So maybe they will walk out with there wallet full, who know.

Why not EY come to IAH.

jetero · Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:08 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
I think ETIHAD and Emirates eventually merge or EK buys out EY,
however you want to phrase it.

Kinda sad we never saw EY's new livery at DFW

Gulf Air v. 2

ADrum23 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:17 pm

This is too bad. I guess there was only room for either Emirates or Etihad, not both.

FoxtrotSierra · Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:18 pm

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

I have talked about 3-4-3 with a 33” pitch...matching the Dreamliner seat. The long-haul ops do very well for AI but lack of planes limits them. Another possibility might be to buy or lease Pakistan’s two B77Ls (since their YYZ route can be shifted to a B77W) for added lift. Other routes can be done with a B789. That makes AI and DL two airlines that have routes that need the range of the B77L.

Given the political tension between India and Pakistan, it's safe to say that option isn't on the table.

I think he meant that EY should buy 77Ls from AI and PK, not AI buy planes from PK...

Indians and Pakistanis in their home countries HATE each other. (Unlike abroad, where they're like family ironically.)

I am a Pakistani and I can debunk that as the only people who believe this are those that haven't been there. Ironically enough, the Indo-Pak rivalry is much stronger in populations outside of India and Pakistan, as people here in the states try to blame everything on the other side, although this is primarily due to the fact that Indo-Pak populations in the west base their perceptions on the media coverage of the other country as opposed to those actually living there who know good friends and family across the border. I have heard waaay to many times that that Indians and Pakistani's must hate each other and this is simply not true, but is rather a narrative perpetuated/believed by most (not all) westerners, but that is why you don't listen to anything each countries media or gov says. Pakistanis have nothing but respect for India, but I agree that the gov and media despise each other and dramatize things to the detriment of good relations, which is why I refuse to watch anything from Arnab Goswami.

LAXdude1023 · Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:56 pm

LH658 wrote:
wow sad moved SFO frequency too, DFW, then ended it. Well maybe they see after that date DFW will not be worth it economically. So maybe they will walk out with there wallet full, who know.

Why not EY come to IAH.

For the same reason theyre leaving Dallas. IAH would be a money pit with the competition and the state of the oil industry.

aemoreira1981 · Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:07 am

drdisque wrote:
EY really just is the odd man out of the three in the US market.

QR has the AA codeshare and a big fleet of 787's that can make marginal destinations work.

EK has the B6 codeshare and a larger network where they can offer more destinations over Dubai and DXB simply has more O&D than the other two.

Maybe if EY had 788's they could make AUH-DFW work.

And EK is now cooperating more closely with FZ. The A380 will have a place in the EK fleet, but if EY is merged into them, it could provide EK with a secondary hub and allow for better right-sizing of operations. As far as destinations like DFW are concerned, I have to wonder if such people might be directed to AUS and B6 to JFK to connect with EK or EY. It's time to go all-in here with B6 and AS and utilize them as their US codeshare partners.

usflyer msp · Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:53 am

IMHO, Etihad's entire existence serves no purpose other than to serve the inferiority complex of Abu Dhabi. It does not have the bling of Dubai nor is it as wealthy as Qatar - always overlooked.

There really is little business case for the AUH hub. There is nothing unique about it - all it does is duplicate the same traffic flows as DXB and DOH on a smaller scale. Seeing EY struggle when there is so much overcapacity between the Gulf and everywhere (including North America) is not a shock.

I would not be shocked to see EY retrench to solely serving JFK and YYZ in North America and have the AUH preclearance facility closed.

upwardfacing · Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:42 am

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
DL has pushed their narrative way too far to go back now and AA would look super hypocritical if they reversed course now. I could definitely see UA try something with one of the ME3 as UA has proven itself to be better from a strategic perspective than DL or AA in the open skies debate. They have kept a fairly low profile which will definitely be advantageous should they decide to partner with them, and Oscar Munoz is much more open to the idea of cooperation with them than EB or DP. UA also flies EWR-DEL/BOM successfully, so the classic argument refuted by the ME3 of “being unable to compete” is somewhat confirmed by UA’s success in India, which I imagine puts them on better terms with the ME3 than DL or AA.

Businesses don't care much about hypocrisy or inconsistency but rather about their interests, which can change according to circumstance. There is too much flux in the industry for any airline to adhere to rigid positions. Though I agree Delta is special. BTW, in case you haven't noticed, the US Government quickly came to Boeing's defence in the Bombarider dispute whereas the so-called Fair Skies issue continues to languish on. I wonder how long the stalemate can last.

A few other things to note:

United's partner Lufthansa has recently started limited codeshares with Etihad and also Oman Air. As for United's CEO, isn't he something of a transitional figure?

Delta's partner Air France-KLM have been working with Etihad for a long time. Same with Virgin Australia and Jet Airways obviously, with the ownership stakes.

American was very close to launching Abu Dhabi a few years ago according to a reliable insider on another forum; apparently the plan fizzled. Here is another view on the shakeout between AA and EY/QR (behind paywall):

https://centreforaviation.com/insights/ ... eal-356272

FoxtrotSierra · Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:10 am

upwardfacing wrote:
Businesses don't care much about hypocrisy or inconsistency but rather about their interests, which can change according to circumstance. There is too much flux in the industry for any airline to adhere to rigid positions. Though I agree Delta is special. BTW, in case you haven't noticed, the US Government quickly came to Boeing's defence in the Bombarider dispute whereas the so-called Fair Skies issue continues to languish on. I wonder how long the stalemate can last.

At the end of the day, all this administration cares about is having jobs in this country. Boeing got lucky with its case because its an American company and the administration felt that US jobs were threatened by a foreign competitor.

DL is trying the same strategy, but its an uphill battle because EK (by extension QR/EY) can point to a 150 777X order and rubbish any claims by DL that US jobs are threatened because any difference in jobs created/lost is largely skewed in EK's favor, and ironically enough Boeing will surely make an appeal in their favor. I think the ME3 has the upper hand because they actually are creating jobs while DL doesn't have anything to materially point to in that arena.

EK413 · Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:14 am

IndianicWorld wrote:
By looking at the way things are currently playing out, EY seem to have reached their maximum capability really.

EY’s main competitors are seemingly better placed, with stronger networks to generate enough demand.

So many routes that are struggling to find traction, with a need to not chase volume but find a viable yield seems key. Seems a widespread issue for them, with the US routes certainly showing just how challenging it can be.

Even in It’s Australia, it has significantly reduced MEL capacity, whilst shifting additional capacity into SYD will be interesting to watch. SYD may well be a stretch too far for them soon trying to operate 2 x daily A380 up against 2 x daily QR (1 x a380, 1 x 77W) and 4 x daily EK (all a380). Hardly an inspiring proposition for them, especially as some of their brand value in the market has been diminished over the past year or so.

EY just don’t have the same network advantages, which makes things very hard for them to compete effectively.

Wasn’t AA/EK in alliance talks at one stage and all went sour?

Let’s not forget EK is increasing their DXB-SYD presence introducing a 5 daily A380 once QF switch back SYD-SIN-LHR.

Will be interesting to watch the ME3 over the next 12 months.

EK413

IndianicWorld · Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:20 am

EK413 wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
By looking at the way things are currently playing out, EY seem to have reached their maximum capability really.

EY’s main competitors are seemingly better placed, with stronger networks to generate enough demand.

So many routes that are struggling to find traction, with a need to not chase volume but find a viable yield seems key. Seems a widespread issue for them, with the US routes certainly showing just how challenging it can be.

Even in It’s Australia, it has significantly reduced MEL capacity, whilst shifting additional capacity into SYD will be interesting to watch. SYD may well be a stretch too far for them soon trying to operate 2 x daily A380 up against 2 x daily QR (1 x a380, 1 x 77W) and 4 x daily EK (all a380). Hardly an inspiring proposition for them, especially as some of their brand value in the market has been diminished over the past year or so.

EY just don’t have the same network advantages, which makes things very hard for them to compete effectively.

Wasn’t AA/EK in alliance talks at one stage and all went sour?

Let’s not forget EK is increasing their DXB-SYD presence introducing a 5 daily A380 once QF switch back SYD-SIN-LHR.

Will be interesting to watch the ME3 over the next 12 months.

EK413

Just a small correction there. EK will increase from 3 x daily SYD-DXB to 4 x daily once the QF changes occur. All operated by A380.

But yes, it certainly will be interesting to watch play out. Early signs are that EY would appear to be the weakest player, even with its VA partnership.

787fan8 · Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:38 am

Pff, I saw this coming from a mile away. As soon as they announced that SFO was going to be cut, I said to myself “DFW is next”. Expect more cuts from EY to the US folks.

aemoreira1981 · Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:44 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

I have talked about 3-4-3 with a 33” pitch...matching the Dreamliner seat. The long-haul ops do very well for AI but lack of planes limits them. Another possibility might be to buy or lease Pakistan’s two B77Ls (since their YYZ route can be shifted to a B77W) for added lift. Other routes can be done with a B789. That makes AI and DL two airlines that have routes that need the range of the B77L.

Given the political tension between India and Pakistan, it's safe to say that option isn't on the table.

I think he meant that EY should buy 77Ls from AI and PK, not AI buy planes from PK...

Indians and Pakistanis in their home countries HATE each other. (Unlike abroad, where they're like family ironically.)

Actually, it was that AI should buy the B77Ls from PK, as well as buying BACK or leasing from EY the B77Ls it sold them. Until the A359ULR comes online, these planes are the only planes that can fulfill some of AI's missions without a major payload hit. Failing that, an alternative might be to approach AC if they have any spare B77Ls to lease one or two in (for what they use a B77L, they can substitute in a B789).

EK413 · Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:34 am

IndianicWorld wrote:
EK413 wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
By looking at the way things are currently playing out, EY seem to have reached their maximum capability really.

EY’s main competitors are seemingly better placed, with stronger networks to generate enough demand.

So many routes that are struggling to find traction, with a need to not chase volume but find a viable yield seems key. Seems a widespread issue for them, with the US routes certainly showing just how challenging it can be.

Even in It’s Australia, it has significantly reduced MEL capacity, whilst shifting additional capacity into SYD will be interesting to watch. SYD may well be a stretch too far for them soon trying to operate 2 x daily A380 up against 2 x daily QR (1 x a380, 1 x 77W) and 4 x daily EK (all a380). Hardly an inspiring proposition for them, especially as some of their brand value in the market has been diminished over the past year or so.

EY just don’t have the same network advantages, which makes things very hard for them to compete effectively.

Wasn’t AA/EK in alliance talks at one stage and all went sour?

Let’s not forget EK is increasing their DXB-SYD presence introducing a 5 daily A380 once QF switch back SYD-SIN-LHR.

Will be interesting to watch the ME3 over the next 12 months.

EK413

Just a small correction there. EK will increase from 3 x daily SYD-DXB to 4 x daily once the QF changes occur. All operated by A380.

But yes, it certainly will be interesting to watch play out. Early signs are that EY would appear to be the weakest player, even with its VA partnership.

Thanks for the correction, with the 5th service via BKK.

I never would’ve expected EY to be the weaker one of the ME3 but they clearly are the weakest link. QR have their own challenges with airspace bans which clearly haven’t had a dramatic effect as expected.

EK413

LH658 · Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:46 am

Weird how they cut from SFO send the capacity to DFW, announced to cut DFW. Seem like EY will do well in DFW, until March, 25th which is when AA and EY relationship ends. After March 25, DFW will become unprofitable unless AA changes there mind.

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