It was announced today that KDEN plans to add 39 gates by 2021 up from a previously announced 26 gates back in August, along with mention of a 7th runway. Very exciting to see KDEN growing, anyone think any other airlines may come and who?
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/27/de ... n-project/

Anyone have a diagram of the proposed terminal expansions?

Does Denver really need a 7th runway?

JetBuddy wrote:

Does Denver really need a 7th runway?

It would help in low visibility and certain x-wind conditions. I saw somewhere a while back that the next runway would be a parallel N of existing runway 8/26, however they are tearing up a lot of concrete south of runway 7/25, as of now these are the only 2 runways facing these directions, so a 3rd would not hurt.

I wonder where the extra 13 gates will go? The 26 gates were suppose to be: 12 at the west end of the A Concourse (including some international gates); 10 at the east end of the C Concourse (for Southwest) and 4 at the west end of United's B Concourse. It looks like the temporary A gates (east end) are getting close to being ready. . .

xjetflyer2001 wrote:

Very exciting to see KDEN growing, anyone think any other airlines may come and who?

American moving from Phoenix.

MO11 wrote:

xjetflyer2001 wrote:

Very exciting to see KDEN growing, anyone think any other airlines may come and who?

American moving from Phoenix.

I don't think that is happening, but nice try. Why would they want to go head to head with UA at another hub?

DEN needs more international gates, including wide body gates. Things are cramped on Concourse A on certain days. WN shows no signs of slowing down their growth. They may even need more space for international operations if growth continues. Skywest has been growing their EAS network in recent months. UA is using mainline gates for regional planes lately as well. AS and VX will consolidate on C in April. Hopefully they add PDX, SAN, and/or SJC in the future. Rumor has Aer Lingus and Etihad on the verge of announcing DEN as well. Emirates has been targeted for quite some time as well. Norwegian is also considering Oslo, as their LGW is doing well and has a fair amount of connections to Oslo.

F9 continues to shrink at DEN, so that may free up gates. AA also continues to shrink at DEN, dropping frequencies to LAX, CLT, and PHL next year.

UA wants add 50 percent more capacity at DEN

MO11 wrote:

xjetflyer2001 wrote:

Very exciting to see KDEN growing, anyone think any other airlines may come and who?

American moving from Phoenix.

HAH. I like how you said it with such confidence. PHX is an awful hub for AA but competing in Denver with UA, F9, and WN would be unimaginably worse.

What's next, DL moves from SLC to Denver? Air Koryo sets up a hub?

mikejepp wrote:

Anyone have a diagram of the proposed terminal expansions?

I believe that YouTube has some videos of the “expansion”. If you YouTube and google search “Denver airport Great Hall Project”, some good details should come up. It’s not an expansion perse, as in the terminals footprint is not expanding, more of an infill of the top level (level 6) atrium. Essentially the ticketing level will be expanded inward under the tent. When done, the south 2/3s of the ticketing level will be rows of ticket counters (think JFK term 4 or LAX Bradley terminal) and the north 1/3 will be security where after clearing you’re led down to level 5 and eventually down to the train. As security will be moved upstairs, the arrivals level (level 5) will have room for more/expanded baggage claim carousels and what room is left in the center will be post-security shopping/restaurants.

I was very confused and against the protect at first, but upon reading more about it, it seems like a very smart and viable way of adding Usable space in the terminal without the expense of expanding the footprint. The exterior of the terminal already has an abundance of curb space.

jubguy3 wrote:

MO11 wrote:

xjetflyer2001 wrote:

Very exciting to see KDEN growing, anyone think any other airlines may come and who?

American moving from Phoenix.

HAH. I like how you said it with such confidence. PHX is an awful hub for AA but competing in Denver with UA, F9, and WN would be unimaginably worse.

What's next, DL moves from SLC to Denver? Air Koryo sets up a hub?

Believe it or not, AA had planned to set up a hub in Denver in the early 80s, when UA, CO, and FL (frontier part 1) were all in full swing, each with 150ish flights a day out of Denver. I believe they were looking at a dedicated terminal across the north/south runways from the Stapleton terminal complex. If I remember correctly, the inability to get some favorable deals from the city killed the project.

I hope before the plans are firmed, that they explore integrating a pedestrian tunnel into the plans, at least between the concourses, if not all the way to the terminal. Since B can't really grow much, I assume UA will be seeking to get some of the new space on A, which would be really convenient with the increased international flights they have nowadays. If additional international gates are in the cards, maybe United could get a couple permanent stands so the LHR and NRT flights don't have to be towed to B for departures.

Flight Global ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-442615/ ) says 12 gates for concourse A, 11 gates for concourse B and 16 gates for concourse C by 2023.

Cmac787 wrote:

UA wants add 50 percent more capacity at DEN

Do you know UA's current DEN departures count vs. 5 or 10 years ago?

rajincajun01 wrote:

DEN needs more international gates, including wide body gates. Things are cramped on Concourse A on certain days. WN shows no signs of slowing down their growth. They may even need more space for international operations if growth continues. Skywest has been growing their EAS network in recent months. UA is using mainline gates for regional planes lately as well. AS and VX will consolidate on C in April. Hopefully they add PDX, SAN, and/or SJC in the future. Rumor has Aer Lingus and Etihad on the verge of announcing DEN as well. Emirates has been targeted for quite some time as well. Norwegian is also considering Oslo, as their LGW is doing well and has a fair amount of connections to Oslo.

F9 continues to shrink at DEN, so that may free up gates. AA also continues to shrink at DEN, dropping frequencies to LAX, CLT, and PHL next year.

F9 is actually adding a lot of flights back into DEN, they were shrinking for a time, but I don't believe so anymore.

That's interesting to hear about Etihad and Norwegian though. I'm surprised Etihad is thinking about it as I thought they were in a bit of financial trouble, maybe I'm wrong.

cosyr wrote:

I hope before the plans are firmed, that they explore integrating a pedestrian tunnel into the plans, at least between the concourses, if not all the way to the terminal. Since B can't really grow much, I assume UA will be seeking to get some of the new space on A, which would be really convenient with the increased international flights they have nowadays. If additional international gates are in the cards, maybe United could get a couple permanent stands so the LHR and NRT flights don't have to be towed to B for departures.

I have heard that they will begin to tear down the north finger express tunnel gates starting sometime next year and will extend the main part of terminal B sort of like the south finger except on the same level as the rest of the terminal for mainline flights, but angled to the North like the South finger angles to the South.

I Know in 2012. UA was at 135 mainline flights a day. Last summer they were at 195

ADent wrote:

Flight Global ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-442615/ ) says 12 gates for concourse A, 11 gates for concourse B and 16 gates for concourse C by 2023.

When they say 39, it sounds like they mean 39 new jetway gates, at the expense of tarmac stands... at least with Concourse B. If they mirror the south Express gates on the north, they could add 16 jetways in the place of 7 (maybe 8) prop gates. Then 3-4 new mainline gates at the west end. You can't add to much more if you want to have deice stands remaining.

Just curious whats the passenger point the leads to the next concourse being built, I know there is still room for extending the current coueses to full size. So i expect decades.

rajincajun01 wrote:

DEN needs more international gates, including wide body gates. Things are cramped on Concourse A on certain days. WN shows no signs of slowing down their growth. They may even need more space for international operations if growth continues. Skywest has been growing their EAS network in recent months. UA is using mainline gates for regional planes lately as well. AS and VX will consolidate on C in April. Hopefully they add PDX, SAN, and/or SJC in the future. Rumor has Aer Lingus and Etihad on the verge of announcing DEN as well. Emirates has been targeted for quite some time as well. Norwegian is also considering Oslo, as their LGW is doing well and has a fair amount of connections to Oslo.

F9 continues to shrink at DEN, so that may free up gates. AA also continues to shrink at DEN, dropping frequencies to LAX, CLT, and PHL next year.

Interesting info but why would Aer Lingus serve Denver? Wouldn't it be better if they flew to DFW? How much commerce is there between Ireland and Colorado? During Norwegian Air's inaugural ceremony I spoke with Kim Davis (Airport Director) and she mentioned that both Seoul and Beijing were on the cards as well the possibility of Norwegian Air adding BCN if the LGW and CDG flights go well. Plus SAS to Copenhagen is a possibility as well.

Although it's unlikely we'll see every single one these airlines serve Denver anytime soon its still exciting.

trexel94 wrote:

rajincajun01 wrote:

DEN needs more international gates, including wide body gates. Things are cramped on Concourse A on certain days. WN shows no signs of slowing down their growth. They may even need more space for international operations if growth continues. Skywest has been growing their EAS network in recent months. UA is using mainline gates for regional planes lately as well. AS and VX will consolidate on C in April. Hopefully they add PDX, SAN, and/or SJC in the future. Rumor has Aer Lingus and Etihad on the verge of announcing DEN as well. Emirates has been targeted for quite some time as well. Norwegian is also considering Oslo, as their LGW is doing well and has a fair amount of connections to Oslo.

F9 continues to shrink at DEN, so that may free up gates. AA also continues to shrink at DEN, dropping frequencies to LAX, CLT, and PHL next year.

Interesting info but why would Aer Lingus serve Denver? Wouldn't it be better if they flew to DFW? How much commerce is there between Ireland and Colorado? During Norwegian Air's inaugural ceremony I spoke with Kim Davis (Airport Director) and she mentioned that both Seoul and Beijing were on the cards as well the possibility of Norwegian Air adding BCN if the LGW and CDG flights go well. Plus SAS to Copenhagen is a possibility as well.

Although it's unlikely we'll see every single one these airlines serve Denver anytime soon its still exciting.

I doubt it's 100% DEN-DUB traffic. It could be IAG readjusting and downsizing BA from a 744 to a 772 or 789 due to 3x competition on DEN-LON with UA and Norwegian allowing for more OneWorld connections to Europe through a second hub. My guess is it would also be just seasonal.

I always figured PEK would be in the cards in the near future as well on one of the Chinese carriers. I see DEN somewhat similar to SEA in terms of O&D traffic. Although SEA has a few larger corporations and a 30% higher population than DEN does, the state GDPs are nearly identical and both are very tech/business focused with increasing demand.

For international long haul carriers SEA has:

Air France
ANA
Asiana
British Airways
Condor (Frankfort & Munich)
Emirates
Eurowings (Cologne)
Hainan (Beijing & Shanghai)
Icelandair
Korean Air
Lufthansa (Frankfort)
Norwegian (LGW)
Virgin Atlantic
Xiamen Air (Shenzhen & Xiamen)
Plus Delta's hub to Asia (not going to list all)

Actually, it looks like Denver and Portland currently (as of Summer 2017) had similar long haul flights

Portland

Icelandair
Delta (Amsterdam, London and Tokyo)
Condor to Frankfort

Denver Summer 17' had:

British Airways
Lufthansa (Frankfort & Munich)
Icelandair
United (Toyko)

Adding this year or next year to DEN:

Norwegian (Paris & London)
United (London)
Edelweiss (Zurich)

So while Summer TATL should essentially double, DEN still has the single UA 788 to NRT. Somewhat surprised they haven't upguaged it to the 789 to rotate with the LAX frequency to NRT at least.

TUSDawg23 wrote:

MO11 wrote:

xjetflyer2001 wrote:

Very exciting to see KDEN growing, anyone think any other airlines may come and who?

American moving from Phoenix.

I don't think that is happening, but nice try. Why would they want to go head to head with UA at another hub?

I think the best candidate for an airline to start a hub at DEN after this gate expansion would be B6 (JetBlue). It'll give them an easier grab at the west-coast destinations, instead of always having to fly trans-US routes from JFK and BOS. It'll also help them compete with AS/VX.

Beechtobus wrote:

I believe that YouTube has some videos of the “expansion”. If you YouTube and google search “Denver airport Great Hall Project”, some good details should come up. It’s not an expansion perse, as in the terminals footprint is not expanding, more of an infill of the top level (level 6) atrium. Essentially the ticketing level will be expanded inward under the tent. When done, the south 2/3s of the ticketing level will be rows of ticket counters (think JFK term 4 or LAX Bradley terminal) and the north 1/3 will be security where after clearing you’re led down to level 5 and eventually down to the train. As security will be moved upstairs, the arrivals level (level 5) will have room for more/expanded baggage claim carousels and what room is left in the center will be post-security shopping/restaurants.

I was very confused and against the protect at first, but upon reading more about it, it seems like a very smart and viable way of adding Usable space in the terminal without the expense of expanding the footprint. The exterior of the terminal already has an abundance of curb space.

Today's news was a different - separate - project from the rearrangement of the Great Hall. DEN is now also proposing to extend the ends of the existing concourses; they refer to this as "telescoping." When DEN was built, room was left at each end of the concourses for expansion. Further, there's room for two new concourses beyond the C concourse (so a "D" and "E" concourse could be built some day, too).

UA starts 787-8 service to IAD today. It will be rotating through there. Some days it's twice daily

Beechtobus wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Anyone have a diagram of the proposed terminal expansions?

I believe that YouTube has some videos of the “expansion”. If you YouTube and google search “Denver airport Great Hall Project”, some good details should come up. It’s not an expansion perse, as in the terminals footprint is not expanding, more of an infill of the top level (level 6) atrium. Essentially the ticketing level will be expanded inward under the tent. When done, the south 2/3s of the ticketing level will be rows of ticket counters (think JFK term 4 or LAX Bradley terminal) and the north 1/3 will be security where after clearing you’re led down to level 5 and eventually down to the train. As security will be moved upstairs, the arrivals level (level 5) will have room for more/expanded baggage claim carousels and what room is left in the center will be post-security shopping/restaurants.

I was very confused and against the protect at first, but upon reading more about it, it seems like a very smart and viable way of adding Usable space in the terminal without the expense of expanding the footprint. The exterior of the terminal already has an abundance of curb space.

I think he was referring to the expansion of the concourses, since that's the subject of the thread, but mistakenly used the word terminals instead. I think he would have used the singular of the word "terminal" if he meant the terminal project.

I think one big question revolving around the Terminal project is what you're getting for the cost. Kim Day is getting a reputation for being spender. I mean, she wanted to spend 500 million to make a simple rail bridge look nicer. The airport still has a lot of debt from its original construction. Granted, seeing what other airports are spending on projects just to fix airfield issues makes some expenditures seem cheap by comparison, but I think she should be a little more cautious about her projects. There is also a lighted welcome sign project that appears will be costing more than originally thought. Again, in my opinion, she's getting a bit of a reputation out here with her projects and their costs.

rajincajun01 wrote:

DEN needs more international gates, including wide body gates. Things are cramped on Concourse A on certain days. WN shows no signs of slowing down their growth. They may even need more space for international operations if growth continues. Skywest has been growing their EAS network in recent months. UA is using mainline gates for regional planes lately as well. AS and VX will consolidate on C in April. Hopefully they add PDX, SAN, and/or SJC in the future. Rumor has Aer Lingus and Etihad on the verge of announcing DEN as well. Emirates has been targeted for quite some time as well. Norwegian is also considering Oslo, as their LGW is doing well and has a fair amount of connections to Oslo.

F9 continues to shrink at DEN, so that may free up gates. AA also continues to shrink at DEN, dropping frequencies to LAX, CLT, and PHL next year.

DEN can expand the FIS / International Gates to all but the last four gates on either side of A, simply by finishing out the upstairs area on each of the "nodes". I've heard mutterings that this will happen, but nothing concrete yet. the new international flights are apparently doing petty well. I've flown on the Norwegian DEN-gatwick flight twice, and it was absolutely packed.

There is a rebuild of the customs and immigration area already green-lit as part of the main terminal overhaul that is moving ahead.

I could still see EK, but I doubt that Aer Lingus or Etihad come in any time soon.

denverdanny wrote:

Beechtobus wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Anyone have a diagram of the proposed terminal expansions?

I believe that YouTube has some videos of the “expansion”. If you YouTube and google search “Denver airport Great Hall Project”, some good details should come up. It’s not an expansion perse, as in the terminals footprint is not expanding, more of an infill of the top level (level 6) atrium. Essentially the ticketing level will be expanded inward under the tent. When done, the south 2/3s of the ticketing level will be rows of ticket counters (think JFK term 4 or LAX Bradley terminal) and the north 1/3 will be security where after clearing you’re led down to level 5 and eventually down to the train. As security will be moved upstairs, the arrivals level (level 5) will have room for more/expanded baggage claim carousels and what room is left in the center will be post-security shopping/restaurants.

I was very confused and against the protect at first, but upon reading more about it, it seems like a very smart and viable way of adding Usable space in the terminal without the expense of expanding the footprint. The exterior of the terminal already has an abundance of curb space.

I think he was referring to the expansion of the concourses, since that's the subject of the thread, but mistakenly used the word terminals instead. I think he would have used the singular of the word "terminal" if he meant the terminal project.

I think one big question revolving around the Terminal project is what you're getting for the cost. Kim Day is getting a reputation for being spender. I mean, she wanted to spend 500 million to make a simple rail bridge look nicer. The airport still has a lot of debt from its original construction. Granted, seeing what other airports are spending on projects just to fix airfield issues makes some expenditures seem cheap by comparison, but I think she should be a little more cautious about her projects. There is also a lighted welcome sign project that appears will be costing more than originally thought. Again, in my opinion, she's getting a bit of a reputation out here with her projects and their costs.

Yes concourse was the word I meant to use, sometimes I mistakenly use terminal and concourse interchangeably

Beechtobus wrote:

mikejepp wrote:

Anyone have a diagram of the proposed terminal expansions?

I believe that YouTube has some videos of the “expansion”. If you YouTube and google search “Denver airport Great Hall Project”, some good details should come up. It’s not an expansion perse, as in the terminals footprint is not expanding, more of an infill of the top level (level 6) atrium. Essentially the ticketing level will be expanded inward under the tent. When done, the south 2/3s of the ticketing level will be rows of ticket counters (think JFK term 4 or LAX Bradley terminal) and the north 1/3 will be security where after clearing you’re led down to level 5 and eventually down to the train. As security will be moved upstairs, the arrivals level (level 5) will have room for more/expanded baggage claim carousels and what room is left in the center will be post-security shopping/restaurants.

I was very confused and against the protect at first, but upon reading more about it, it seems like a very smart and viable way of adding Usable space in the terminal without the expense of expanding the footprint. The exterior of the terminal already has an abundance of curb space.

This is a separate project then the main terminal expansion. This pretty much telescopes the remaining 3 concourses out.

sagechan wrote:

Just curious whats the passenger point the leads to the next concourse being built, I know there is still room for extending the current coueses to full size. So i expect decades.

When this was a expansion of just 22 gates, the Airport said that this would take each concourse pretty close to full build out. Now that they have doubled the size, it pretty much means that any future expansion would be a new build. Hiow long that takes depends on DENs primary original design as being the major internal connection point for US based carriers. At some point the hub itself starts to provide a very powerful network effect. Almost all of the hubs that fall into that category - where the size of the airport itself is major draw - are severely constrained either because of inefficient hub design or land constraints. The sole exception I can think of right now is ATL, which not suprisingly is also a midfield airport design, and which DEN is based off of.

To put this another way, the airport design in for 60/40 connecting. So far, it has been 60/40 O&D. With this expansion, the airport could easily handle a total shift to 60/40 connecting (assuming the price per emplacement doesn't grow too badly) without breaking a sweat. Then, like ATL, it's off to the races capacity wise as the benefit of being a mega-hub start to kick in.

In short, it could be decades, or it could be a decade. It all depends on how much the connecting traffic grows.

JetBuddy wrote:

Does Denver really need a 7th runway?

Exactly my first thought.

cosyr wrote:

When they say 39, it sounds like they mean 39 new jetway gates, at the expense of tarmac stands... at least with Concourse B. If they mirror the south Express gates on the north, they could add 16 jetways in the place of 7 (maybe 8) prop gates. Then 3-4 new mainline gates at the west end. You can't add to much more if you want to have deice stands remaining.

The Denver post article specifically mentions 107 "regular gates" and 42 apron load gates and that this expansion would add 39 regular gates. No word if there will be a reduction in apron load gates, but there is only so much real estate around the airport.

Per the airport diagram there are 11 apron load gates on the B-plywood building side - B57-B79, and 16 gates with RJ sized Jetways on the B-cinder block side B80-B95, though it looks like there are at least 2 full size jetway gates lost on the B57-B59 side.

So your number of 16 mini-Jetways in place of 7 prop gates is about right - if you add 2 full size Jetways replacing 3 apron load gates.

So a duplicate of the B80-B95 gates would add 18 Jetways and there was already planned in August a 4 gate extensions to the other end of B. That would total 22 gates - but the new total is for 11 B gates.

So my guess is the B80-B95 is not going to be mirrored.

ADent wrote:

cosyr wrote:

When they say 39, it sounds like they mean 39 new jetway gates, at the expense of tarmac stands... at least with Concourse B. If they mirror the south Express gates on the north, they could add 16 jetways in the place of 7 (maybe 8) prop gates. Then 3-4 new mainline gates at the west end. You can't add to much more if you want to have deice stands remaining.

The Denver post article specifically mentions 107 "regular gates" and 42 apron load gates and that this expansion would add 39 regular gates. No word if there will be a reduction in apron load gates, but there is only so much real estate around the airport.

Per the airport diagram there are 11 apron load gates on the B-plywood building side - B57-B79, and 16 gates with RJ sized Jetways on the B-cinder block side B80-B95, though it looks like there are at least 2 full size jetway gates lost on the B57-B59 side.

So your number of 16 mini-Jetways in place of 7 prop gates is about right - if you add 2 full size Jetways replacing 3 apron load gates.

So a duplicate of the B80-B95 gates would add 18 Jetways and there was already planned in August a 4 gate extensions to the other end of B. That would total 22 gates - but the new total is for 11 B gates.

So my guess is the B80-B95 is not going to be mirrored.

You forgot to subtract the apron load gates where the 80-95 gates would be mirrored. So that would be 7-8 additional, and 4 at the other end, is about 11.

ADent wrote:

cosyr wrote:

When they say 39, it sounds like they mean 39 new jetway gates, at the expense of tarmac stands... at least with Concourse B. If they mirror the south Express gates on the north, they could add 16 jetways in the place of 7 (maybe 8) prop gates. Then 3-4 new mainline gates at the west end. You can't add to much more if you want to have deice stands remaining.

The Denver post article specifically mentions 107 "regular gates" and 42 apron load gates and that this expansion would add 39 regular gates. No word if there will be a reduction in apron load gates, but there is only so much real estate around the airport.

Per the airport diagram there are 11 apron load gates on the B-plywood building side - B57-B79, and 16 gates with RJ sized Jetways on the B-cinder block side B80-B95, though it looks like there are at least 2 full size jetway gates lost on the B57-B59 side.

So your number of 16 mini-Jetways in place of 7 prop gates is about right - if you add 2 full size Jetways replacing 3 apron load gates.

So a duplicate of the B80-B95 gates would add 18 Jetways and there was already planned in August a 4 gate extensions to the other end of B. That would total 22 gates - but the new total is for 11 B gates.

So my guess is the B80-B95 is not going to be mirrored.

My understanding is that the walkway for the B57-B79 gates is to be torn down and the main concourse is to be extended curving to the North but will remain at a 2nd floor level and accommodate mainline aircraft. That's what the rumor is circulating around the B concourse

caverunner17 wrote:

trexel94 wrote:

rajincajun01 wrote:

DEN needs more international gates, including wide body gates. Things are cramped on Concourse A on certain days. WN shows no signs of slowing down their growth. They may even need more space for international operations if growth continues. Skywest has been growing their EAS network in recent months. UA is using mainline gates for regional planes lately as well. AS and VX will consolidate on C in April. Hopefully they add PDX, SAN, and/or SJC in the future. Rumor has Aer Lingus and Etihad on the verge of announcing DEN as well. Emirates has been targeted for quite some time as well. Norwegian is also considering Oslo, as their LGW is doing well and has a fair amount of connections to Oslo.

F9 continues to shrink at DEN, so that may free up gates. AA also continues to shrink at DEN, dropping frequencies to LAX, CLT, and PHL next year.

Interesting info but why would Aer Lingus serve Denver? Wouldn't it be better if they flew to DFW? How much commerce is there between Ireland and Colorado? During Norwegian Air's inaugural ceremony I spoke with Kim Davis (Airport Director) and she mentioned that both Seoul and Beijing were on the cards as well the possibility of Norwegian Air adding BCN if the LGW and CDG flights go well. Plus SAS to Copenhagen is a possibility as well.

Although it's unlikely we'll see every single one these airlines serve Denver anytime soon its still exciting.

I doubt it's 100% DEN-DUB traffic. It could be IAG readjusting and downsizing BA from a 744 to a 772 or 789 due to 3x competition on DEN-LON with UA and Norwegian allowing for more OneWorld connections to Europe through a second hub. My guess is it would also be just seasonal.

I always figured PEK would be in the cards in the near future as well on one of the Chinese carriers. I see DEN somewhat similar to SEA in terms of O&D traffic. Although SEA has a few larger corporations and a 30% higher population than DEN does, the state GDPs are nearly identical and both are very tech/business focused with increasing demand.

For international long haul carriers SEA has:

Air France
ANA
Asiana
British Airways
Condor (Frankfort & Munich)
Emirates
Eurowings (Cologne)
Hainan (Beijing & Shanghai)
Icelandair
Korean Air
Lufthansa (Frankfort)
Norwegian (LGW)
Virgin Atlantic
Xiamen Air (Shenzhen & Xiamen)
Plus Delta's hub to Asia (not going to list all)

Actually, it looks like Denver and Portland currently (as of Summer 2017) had similar long haul flights

Portland

Icelandair
Delta (Amsterdam, London and Tokyo)
Condor to Frankfort

Denver Summer 17' had:

British Airways
Lufthansa (Frankfort & Munich)
Icelandair
United (Toyko)

Adding this year or next year to DEN:

Norwegian (Paris & London)
United (London)
Edelweiss (Zurich)

So while Summer TATL should essentially double, DEN still has the single UA 788 to NRT. Somewhat surprised they haven't upguaged it to the 789 to rotate with the LAX frequency to NRT at least.

With SEA you forgot

BR - from TPE
OZ - from ICN

The green rush continues unabated

Offhand, when will we see the construction of a new terminal? Terminal D?

xjetflyer2001 wrote:

JetBuddy wrote:

Does Denver really need a 7th runway?

It would help in low visibility and certain x-wind conditions. I saw somewhere a while back that the next runway would be a parallel N of existing runway 8/26, however they are tearing up a lot of concrete south of runway 7/25, as of now these are the only 2 runways facing these directions, so a 3rd would not hurt.

Just to be clear, they are only preparing for a 7th runway per the OP link. But because of the resistance to runway construction, better to build them early and have them. But not so early they destroy the airport economics...


The gates are needed. Airlines are being locked out of DEN as you need a minimum number of gates to enter or the established airlines can easily loss lead on a few routes to knock a new entrant out.

Lightsaber

irishpower wrote:

Offhand, when will we see the construction of a new terminal? Terminal D?

DEN uses the expression concourse for the facilities that provide gates, rather than terminal. This can be a bit confusing to some as there's a project to renovate and revise the current terminal - this is known as the "Great Hall Project."

But to your question, when would a fourth concourse be built? It's too soon to tell, IMHO. There's still a lot of room at the ends of the current concourses, but the plan to build 39 new gates will certainly put DEN much closer to a Concourse D. There's also room for a Concourse E some day.

Looking at one of the DIA master plan supporting documents (although dated at this point), my sense is that they will build out what's shown in it. https://www.flydenver.com/sites/default/files/masterplan/mp/pdfs/ALP%20Sht%2005-Airport%20Layout%20Plan-Terminal%20Areas.pdf

"T-2" on Concourse B is about the size of 4 gates and after the north finger of the express area is built, I can see a net increase of 7 gates coming from that. The question is if the structure of the north finger will allow for larger gate spacing to accommodate E17x flights. One of the challenges with the south finger is that it can't accommodate anything larger than a CR7.

FlyHossD wrote:

irishpower wrote:

Offhand, when will we see the construction of a new terminal? Terminal D?

DEN uses the expression concourse for the facilities that provide gates, rather than terminal. This can be a bit confusing to some as there's a project to renovate and revise the current terminal - this is known as the "Great Hall Project."

But to your question, when would a fourth concourse be built? It's too soon to tell, IMHO. There's still a lot of room at the ends of the current concourses, but the plan to build 39 new gates will certainly put DEN much closer to a Concourse D. There's also room for a Concourse E some day.

And actually a F as well, but for E and F, they will have to move a hanger.

Will a 2nd terminal building ever get built north of Concourses C, D, and E at DEN, in addition to the existing main Jeppesen terminal building that is connected to the existing concourses via underground train and to Concourse A via a bridge?

jplatts wrote:

Will a 2nd terminal building ever get built north of Concourses C, D, and E at DEN, in addition to the existing main Jeppesen terminal building that is connected to the existing concourses via underground train and to Concourse A via a bridge?

Probably not. There is some conversation about maybe doing a south terminal to the south of the main terminal, but that would be a separate terminal, unconnected to the rest of the main terminal. There is land to theoretically do a north terminal, but the terminals would be a really long way from each other, and I don't think there is really any need to do so.

I get a headache just thinking about the amount of construction we are going to have to deal with at DIA over (let's say) the next 8 years. I do think that it's time to do both of these projects.

airfrnt wrote:

To put this another way, the airport design in for 60/40 connecting. So far, it has been 60/40 O&D. With this expansion, the airport could easily handle a total shift to 60/40 connecting (assuming the price per emplacement doesn't grow too badly) without breaking a sweat. Then, like ATL, it's off to the races capacity wise as the benefit of being a mega-hub start to kick in.

In short, it could be decades, or it could be a decade. It all depends on how much the connecting traffic grows.

Hub economies of scale accrue primarily in single-carrier hub operations. UA doesn't really get much benefit from the size of AA's ops at ORD. (Spreading airport overhead over more enplanements is about it.) DEN spread over two (or three) hub carriers doesn't yield the same scale effects as AA at DFW nor DL at ATL. That doesn't mean the airport shouldn't grow, but it is possible to overbuild infrastructure in the medium-term.

Is there any architectural renderings or maps of what the concourses will look like after all the work is complete. In regards to the concourse a temporary gates at the east end what's that look like and shouldn't it be ready soon.

MIflyer12 wrote:

airfrnt wrote:

To put this another way, the airport design in for 60/40 connecting. So far, it has been 60/40 O&D. With this expansion, the airport could easily handle a total shift to 60/40 connecting (assuming the price per emplacement doesn't grow too badly) without breaking a sweat. Then, like ATL, it's off to the races capacity wise as the benefit of being a mega-hub start to kick in.

In short, it could be decades, or it could be a decade. It all depends on how much the connecting traffic grows.

Hub economies of scale accrue primarily in single-carrier hub operations. UA doesn't really get much benefit from the size of AA's ops at ORD. (Spreading airport overhead over more enplanements is about it.) DEN spread over two (or three) hub carriers doesn't yield the same scale effects as AA at DFW nor DL at ATL. That doesn't mean the airport shouldn't grow, but it is possible to overbuild infrastructure in the medium-term.

True. The difference is that WN and UA are at the size where their own operations are getting close to critical mass, thats all. I also agree with the over-building argument.

Kden95 wrote:

Is there any architectural renderings or maps of what the concourses will look like after all the work is complete. In regards to the concourse a temporary gates at the east end what's that look like and shouldn't it be ready soon.

Not yet, I will post if I come across anything. I would't expect it to be much different then the recent expansion of C, although things could get most interesting on B with the regional gates.

Cmac787 wrote:

UA starts 787-8 service to IAD today. It will be rotating through there. Some days it's twice daily

A couple of weeks ago I had a 4 hour layover at DEN. Lost track of the number of UA 787s I saw taxiing between Terminal A & B.

I could see Southwest adding nonstop service from DEN to CLT, CVG, DSM, ELP, and MEM, plus year-round DEN-ORF nonstop service, plus additional nonstops from DEN to CLE and FLL. Southwest uses 25 gates out of Concourse C out of DEN, and Southwest has enough room to add extra flights out of the existing gates in Concourse C at DEN since Southwest currently only does 210 flights a year on weekdays during the peak travel season out of DEN.