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French Blue could open Paris Orly to Papeete 2x a week with a stop at San Francisco in 2018.

It would be great news for tourists and polynesians who currently have to pay high fares to travel.

Here is the link in french :
http://www.tahitinews.co/desserte-de-la-polynesie-par-french-blue-ce-serait-quasiment-fait/

Nice! Not sure if they will be able to compete well enough with AF and Air Tahit'si LAX-PPT routes...

Corsair used to have a similar route, ORY-OAK-PPT using 747-SP's.

wedgetail737 wrote:

Corsair used to have a similar route, ORY-OAK-PPT using 747-SP's.

Yeah, I was wondering if a French LCC wouldn't be better off using OAK as their stopover. SFO is just getting so packed.

Fares on Air Tahiti Nui aren't that high, but certainly not ULCC cheap.

The fares on Air France are typically very high.

Flights could start at the beginning of the year and have a third frequency during high season. I believe BF will get at least a second A359 sometimes next year. They could still lease capacity from Air Caraibes if needed and if available, as they did this year to serve RUN.

Unless FrenchBlue can control access to cheap hotel capacity which is in very short supply in French Polynesia, they are unlikely to prosper. That is why Corsair had to pull out.

Also historically SF Bay - French Polynesia service has never succeeded. Minerve, UTA/Air France, Corsair all tried and dropped. Links to Los Angeles by Tahitian population is extremely strong, hence why TN is solely focused on LAX link.

On the other hand Paris-SF likely will always have good demand especially in summers from both end of Atlantic. XL Airway most recently has been offering such seasonal capacity.

The article says San Francisco not SFO.

As for hotels, maybe the plan is to run some hotels there ? Groupe Dubreuil is very diversified.

DocLightning wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

Corsair used to have a similar route, ORY-OAK-PPT using 747-SP's.

Yeah, I was wondering if a French LCC wouldn't be better off using OAK as their stopover. SFO is just getting so packed.

I don't know. With Level, growing Norwegian and BA (and Southwest and Volaris), the FIS facility at OAK is running pretty thin as well.

DocLightning wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

Corsair used to have a similar route, ORY-OAK-PPT using 747-SP's.

Yeah, I was wondering if a French LCC wouldn't be better off using OAK as their stopover. SFO is just getting so packed.

SS moved their stop to SFO from OAK as the transit experience was terrible with hundreds of pax being held in a large ugly room with portable chairs for more than an hour.

Aesma wrote:

As for hotels, maybe the plan is to run some hotels there ? Groupe Dubreuil is very diversified.

Always possible but I have not heard a peep about that. Development in French Polynesia is not something that happens easily or rapidly.
Nouvelle Frontiers (owners of Corsair at time) similarly wanted to invest and build hotel property on Tahiti as numbers of small family pensions and holiday resort property space was limited (Club Med closed down for example) but was rejected.

Does anyone have any figures about percentage of pax doing the whole trip between CDG and PPT on AirTahiti Nui, not boarding or unboarding at LAX ?

wedgetail737 wrote:

DocLightning wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

Corsair used to have a similar route, ORY-OAK-PPT using 747-SP's.

Yeah, I was wondering if a French LCC wouldn't be better off using OAK as their stopover. SFO is just getting so packed.

I don't know. With Level, growing Norwegian and BA (and Southwest and Volaris), the FIS facility at OAK is running pretty thin as well.

Having recently transited OAK on my (excellent) LEVEL flight I have to say the infrastructure there is not only cramped, but in pretty bad shape too..... Departure side it reminds me more of a greyhound coach station than an international airport.

mercure1 wrote:

Unless FrenchBlue can control access to cheap hotel capacity which is in very short supply in French Polynesia, they are unlikely to prosper. That is why Corsair had to pull out.

Fully agree. Air Tahiti Nui was created (and heavily subsidized by the government) to attract tourists. Looking at tourism stats, it seems they did not bring any additional tourist. Tahiti is not cheap, is far from France and I guess Americans prefer the Hawaï experience.

rouelan wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

Unless FrenchBlue can control access to cheap hotel capacity which is in very short supply in French Polynesia, they are unlikely to prosper. That is why Corsair had to pull out.

Fully agree. Air Tahiti Nui was created (and heavily subsidized by the government) to attract tourists. Looking at tourism stats, it seems they did not bring any additional tourist. Tahiti is not cheap, is far from France and I guess Americans prefer the Hawaï experience.

Most average Americans can not afford the Tahiti experience, mind you a Hawaiian vacation is not particularly inexpensive.

chepos wrote:

rouelan wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

Unless FrenchBlue can control access to cheap hotel capacity which is in very short supply in French Polynesia, they are unlikely to prosper. That is why Corsair had to pull out.

Fully agree. Air Tahiti Nui was created (and heavily subsidized by the government) to attract tourists. Looking at tourism stats, it seems they did not bring any additional tourist. Tahiti is not cheap, is far from France and I guess Americans prefer the Hawaï experience.

Most average Americans can not afford the Tahiti experience, mind you a Hawaiian vacation is not particularly inexpensive.

I was just there earlier this month, and while a bit spendy, it wasn't particularly outrageous (40 bucks a day for a car, Airbnb split with another couple ran 70 bucks a day, grocery store prices for food not bad, bring a lot of rum with you though).

I liked the ride on Air Tahiti Nui, though the coach seats were pretty uncomfortable. Wanted to get on my first (and probably last) A343. Tickets were close to 2 grand each though.

oldannyboy wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

DocLightning wrote:

Yeah, I was wondering if a French LCC wouldn't be better off using OAK as their stopover. SFO is just getting so packed.

I don't know. With Level, growing Norwegian and BA (and Southwest and Volaris), the FIS facility at OAK is running pretty thin as well.

Having recently transited OAK on my (excellent) LEVEL flight I have to say the infrastructure there is not only cramped, but in pretty bad shape too..... Departure side it reminds me more of a greyhound coach station than an international airport.

New international arrivals building is opening up next month, so capacity will be greatly increased and in a modern building. Terminal 1 for departing isn't amazing but perfectly functional.

Spacepope wrote:

chepos wrote:

rouelan wrote:

Fully agree. Air Tahiti Nui was created (and heavily subsidized by the government) to attract tourists. Looking at tourism stats, it seems they did not bring any additional tourist. Tahiti is not cheap, is far from France and I guess Americans prefer the Hawaï experience.

Most average Americans can not afford the Tahiti experience, mind you a Hawaiian vacation is not particularly inexpensive.

I was just there earlier this month, and while a bit spendy, it wasn't particularly outrageous (40 bucks a day for a car, Airbnb split with another couple ran 70 bucks a day, grocery store prices for food not bad, bring a lot of rum with you though).

I liked the ride on Air Tahiti Nui, though the coach seats were pretty uncomfortable. Wanted to get on my first (and probably last) A343. Tickets were close to 2 grand each though.

The few scattered vacation rentals are not able to handle entire planeloads of tourists. Need mass tourism infrastructure. Its not that type of destination. TN exists to attract the right type of tourist in relatively small numbers and serve the needs of the locals. They are not subsidizing airfares for people to spend $70/day on airbnb, they want people in the $500+/night places.

Yes, for sure they can try that and loose tons of money. France-PPT is a very expensive route to operate and having a 3rd carrier on such a route is for sure unsustainable will just lead to a disaster. At least, if it materializes, it will may be force AF and TN to cooperate more and finally implement the only viable model : let TN operate solely PPT-LAX and AF LAX-CDG, as it was done with SB many years ago on France-Japan-NOU routes.

Are there any kind of state subsidies on this route that could make it viable? I doubt the Groupe Dubreuil would venture into it if it can't be profitable somehow.

Fares on AF or TN around the Winter holidays are €2200 R/T in Y. If BF can sell it for €1500, they'll do well.

And it's probably OAK that will be used as it seems to be the trend with LHLCCs. Regardless of the terminal's comfort (or lack of). Airlines nowadays don't care much about passengers well being. If you read this forum regularly, you know...

goldorak wrote:

Yes, for sure they can try that and loose tons of money. France-PPT is a very expensive route to operate and having a 3rd carrier on such a route is for sure unsustainable will just lead to a disaster. At least, if it materializes, it will may be force AF and TN to cooperate more and finally implement the only viable model : let TN operate solely PPT-LAX and AF LAX-CDG, as it was done with SB many years ago on France-Japan-NOU routes.

I really hope so ! And then, TN can focuses on more routes in the Pacific (HNL, SYD, PVG, PEK ?)

+ integration in SkyTeam.

PPT needs a solution to improve the efficiency of passenger processing to reduce the long waiting periods from check-in to departure; arrival to baggage re-claim. One ATM machine, 4 border control desks, and a Premium Voyageur check-in line that moves faster than the Business check-in (due to elites, I suspect) does not demonstrate readiness for a new airline such as French Blue to enter the airport.

Earlier, someone mentioned expanded cooperation between AF and TN where TN operates the PPT-LAX sector while AF operates CDGLAXCDG. The reality is, if/when TN folds, AF will need to be there to support the existing demand. If/when AF is on strike, TN will need to carry AF passengers. Also, rumor has it AF has a higher sense of appeal in terms of catering while TN is least favorable.

AirAfreak wrote:

PPT needs a solution to improve the efficiency of passenger processing to reduce the long waiting periods from check-in to departure; arrival to baggage re-claim. One ATM machine, 4 border control desks, and a Premium Voyageur check-in line that moves faster than the Business check-in (due to elites, I suspect) does not demonstrate readiness for a new airline such as French Blue to enter the airport.

Earlier, someone mentioned expanded cooperation between AF and TN where TN operates the PPT-LAX sector while AF operates CDGLAXCDG. The reality is, if/when TN folds, AF will need to be there to support the existing demand. If/when AF is on strike, TN will need to carry AF passengers. Also, rumor has it AF has a higher sense of appeal in terms of catering while TN is least favorable.

Just wait until carrier #4 announces PPT service in the next few months... That'll be fun.

goldorak wrote:

Yes, for sure they can try that and loose tons of money. France-PPT is a very expensive route to operate and having a 3rd carrier on such a route is for sure unsustainable will just lead to a disaster. At least, if it materializes, it will may be force AF and TN to cooperate more and finally implement the only viable model : let TN operate solely PPT-LAX and AF LAX-CDG, as it was done with SB many years ago on France-Japan-NOU routes.

AF and TN wanted to cooperate more and applied with the US government to get a JV/ATI (with DL included as well to improve their chances of getting approval). The US (IMHO, justifiably) shot it down. TN and AF are competitors, they can't legally collude on PPT-LAX-CDG with local traffic for each segment even if they have backing/approval from the French/Tahiti governments.

Tahiti's Opposition against low-cost airline

"French Polynesia's opposition Tahoeraa Huiraatira Party has come out against plans of a French low-cost airline to fly between Paris and Tahiti.

The airline French Blue has been in discussions with the French Polynesian government about launching flights via San Francisco from next year at fares about 30 percent lower than offered now.

Tahini Nui TV said it's understood that the government approved an application but there had been no official announcement.

The Tahoeraa leader Gaston Flosse said he was strongly opposed to the project, saying low cost one-way tickets will be dangerous for both the traveller and the local community.

He said French Polynesia is a high cost destination and for certain travellers the dream of going to Tahiti would turn into a nightmare."

See: http://www.radionz.co.nz/international/ ... st-airline.

Cheers,

C.

I have thought for some time a SFO-PPT say 2-3x a week would do well. I do not know if French Blue is the airline to do it! but I'm confident the routing would succeed. I know a few airlines tried the route many years back, but the Bay Area since that time has grown in Wealth capitol immensely. Plus I think SFO is the airport to route through as it would draw more from the South bay and garner more attention then OAK. I would have thought Air thihit Nui would have started this by now? I really don't feel sorry for them for leaving this routing open for the taking.

Ministers' Council has given the green light to French Blue's request to serve the route with scheduled passenger and cargo flights. Operations could start in May next year with A333s and A350s operated in code-share with Air Caraïbes

http://la1ere.francetvinfo.fr/polynesie ... 27673.html

planemanofnz wrote:

Tahiti's Opposition against low-cost airline
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The Tahoeraa leader Gaston Flosse said he was strongly opposed to the project, saying low cost one-way tickets will be dangerous for both the traveller and the local community.

He said French Polynesia is a high cost destination and for certain travellers the dream of going to Tahiti would turn into a nightmare."[/i]
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Did he send this message from his prison cell ?

Not wanting competition when the only thing you know is corruption and nepotism is not really surprising.

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Ministers' Council has given the green light to French Blue's request to serve the route with scheduled passenger and cargo flights. Operations could start in May next year with A333s and A350s operated in code-share with Air Caraïbes

http://la1ere.francetvinfo.fr/polynesie ... 27673.html

Good new for them. Interested to know the fares and the fréquencies of their flights.

Say what you will of Gaston Flosse, but he is correct that FP is an expensive destination and dumping a plane load of mass market tourist without things like ample hotel capacity will be problematic.

The biggest benefit of such flying will likely be existing clients which could see TN be forced to match lower pricing of BF, which could result inturn harm to TN and the broader social and economic benefits it serves.

A380MSN004 wrote:

Good new for them. Interested to know the fares and the fréquencies of their flights.

Twice weekly, thrice weekly between mid-June and mid-August '18. Fares could be 20 to 30% lower than AF and TN.

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

Good new for them. Interested to know the fares and the fréquencies of their flights.

Twice weekly, thrice weekly between mid-June and mid-August '18. Fares could be 20 to 30% lower than AF and TN.

So 1500€ way and back / eco class more or less. Not bad at all

mercure1 wrote:

Say what you will of Gaston Flosse, but he is correct that FP is an expensive destination and dumping a plane load of mass market tourist without things like ample hotel capacity will be problematic.

The biggest benefit of such flying will likely be existing clients which could see TN be forced to match lower pricing of BF, which could result inturn harm to TN and the broader social and economic benefits it serves.

Oh come on, do you think the people will fly there without booking a hotel? Camping on the beaches? That's ridicolous....


And even if they would do it, this sounds like highly elitist bla bla of the super-rich trying to keep the cheap riff-raff away. And it's not like there are only expensive hotels in FP. Especially Tahiti has some very cheap hotels, not even with a star-rating. Okay, they might not be at the beach and they don't offer the overwater-bungalow we all want to have with 4- or 5-star service, but the people flying there on a LCC won't expect this anyway. They take their rental car, bike or bus and just go to a public beach.

More people flying is always great. Offering also lower-income people travels around the world is good, actually it's amazing that it is possible in this day and age. That's the world slowly becoming better...

CARST wrote:

Oh come on, do you think the people will fly there without booking a hotel?

There are such things as Airbnb and CouchSurfing too, these days.

Cheers,

C.

planemanofnz wrote:

CARST wrote:

Oh come on, do you think the people will fly there without booking a hotel?

There are such things as Airbnb and CouchSurfing too, these days.

Cheers,

C.

Just like I did last month. Still not a cheap flight by any measure.

Maybe you dont realize but hotel room count in French Polynesia is 17 percent less in 2016 than it was in 2001.

A couple typical large Las Vegas hotels have more rooms than on all 118 islands of FP (about 3000 rooms).

So adding flight capacity without supporting hotel capacity particularly in the lower end budget category is problematic and an issue faced by Nouvelles Frontieres tour operator parent of Corsair

mercure1 wrote:

Maybe you dont realize but hotel room count in French Polynesia is 17 percent less in 2016 than it was in 2001.

A couple typical large Las Vegas hotels have more rooms than on all 118 islands of FP (about 3000 rooms).

So adding flight capacity without supporting hotel capacity particularly in the lower end budget category is problematic and an issue faced by Nouvelles Frontieres tour operator parent of Corsair

Well, the thing is the head of French Blue (Marc Rochet) used to be the head of AOM who was already flying to PPT. So he knows the market and the situation. If they go back there, he must have a plan or solutions for the accomodation issues.

planemanofnz wrote:

Tahiti's Opposition against low-cost airline

"French Polynesia's opposition Tahoeraa Huiraatira Party has come out against plans of a French low-cost airline to fly between Paris and Tahiti.

The airline French Blue has been in discussions with the French Polynesian government about launching flights via San Francisco from next year at fares about 30 percent lower than offered now.

Tahini Nui TV said it's understood that the government approved an application but there had been no official announcement.

The Tahoeraa leader Gaston Flosse said he was strongly opposed to the project, saying low cost one-way tickets will be dangerous for both the traveller and the local community.

He said French Polynesia is a high cost destination and for certain travellers the dream of going to Tahiti would turn into a nightmare."

See: http://www.radionz.co.nz/international/ ... st-airline.

Cheers,

C.

So, he does not want low-cost opportunities for Tahitians?

txjim wrote:

So, he does not want low-cost opportunities for Tahitians?

Like in Hawaii, many locals such as students, families, seniors, public sector workers, can receive various discounts already on air transport plus special benefits like additional baggage allowances. Its a type of local social benefit airlines that TN and VT provide residents.

Also the concept or open uncontrolled competition is a well know danger among Pacific islands. Airlines like TN&VT are vital so their survival must be assured as reliance on outside companies that come and go chasing profits has in past resulted in negative outcomes and is actually what drove the desire to establish TN to be in control of own destiny and provide steady links to outside world.

Interesting interview of Marc Rochet (sorry in french), CEO Air Caraibes / French Blue.

http://la1ere.francetvinfo.fr/polynesie ... 28165.html

He is of course very canny, talking of stimulating traffic , downplaying the issue of accomodation (occupancy of "pensions de famille" would only be 30%).
As for Reunion island, local authorities are indeed concerned that frenchBlue could kill their airline (Air Austral, Air Tahiti Nui). It would be a blow for local jobs and friends of friends of cousins who avail for travel perks. But I am not sure it would change a lot in terms of visitors. Just compare stats before and after TN. In the past, on top of AF, there was also AOM and Air New Zealand. TN merely replaced them.

Talking of VT, additional visitors would also be a problem of capacity on inter islands flights.

rouelan wrote:

He is of course very canny, talking of stimulating traffic , downplaying the issue of accomodation.

Wasn't he already when he was the CEO of AOM and served the route through LAX?

yes he was. Basically, he is doing what he was doing with AOM (same for Cuba)

There is a french saying : "c'est dans les vieilles marmites que l'on fait les meilleures soupes"
It is in the old pans that you make the best soups

mercure1 wrote:

txjim wrote:

So, he does not want low-cost opportunities for Tahitians?

Like in Hawaii, many locals such as students, families, seniors, public sector workers, can receive various discounts already on air transport plus special benefits like additional baggage allowances. Its a type of local social benefit airlines that TN and VT provide residents.

Also the concept or open uncontrolled competition is a well know danger among Pacific islands. Airlines like TN&VT are vital so their survival must be assured as reliance on outside companies that come and go chasing profits has in past resulted in negative outcomes and is actually what drove the desire to establish TN to be in control of own destiny and provide steady links to outside world.

Very accurate analysis. But I think TN and AF have a public service delegation contract on routes between PAR and PPT (to be confirmed though), so competition may not put their business at risk however it can be harmful.

There have been many comments about hotel supply. Remember NZ flew :LAX/PPT/AKL for many years as The Coral Route, and hotel availability was not an issue.(and continue to fly AKL PPT AKL on widebodies). Smart to pick SFO as a connecting point. Provides ability to sell SFO PPT and SFO ORY, and can probably secure higher yields on US POS in USD. NZ has that with LAXLHR. Yields are higher from US POS vs NZ or UK POS.

SFODude wrote:

There have been many comments about hotel supply. Remember NZ flew :LAX/PPT/AKL for many years as The Coral Route, and hotel availability was not an issue.

I think you missed the previously posted statement that hotel room capacity is 17% lower today in French Polynesia than it was in 2001.

Between bankruptcies, chains pulling out, or severe weather damage that is never repaired many properties including some famous ones no longer exist.

drdisque wrote:

Fares on Air Tahiti Nui aren't that high, but certainly not ULCC cheap.

The fares on Air France are typically very high.

Air France, Lufthansa, and KLM usually have the highest fares...

kjeld0d wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

chepos wrote:

Most average Americans can not afford the Tahiti experience, mind you a Hawaiian vacation is not particularly inexpensive.

I was just there earlier this month, and while a bit spendy, it wasn't particularly outrageous (40 bucks a day for a car, Airbnb split with another couple ran 70 bucks a day, grocery store prices for food not bad, bring a lot of rum with you though).

I liked the ride on Air Tahiti Nui, though the coach seats were pretty uncomfortable. Wanted to get on my first (and probably last) A343. Tickets were close to 2 grand each though.

The few scattered vacation rentals are not able to handle entire planeloads of tourists. Need mass tourism infrastructure. Its not that type of destination. TN exists to attract the right type of tourist in relatively small numbers and serve the needs of the locals. They are not subsidizing airfares for people to spend $70/day on airbnb, they want people in the $500+/night places.

True but I imagine that there are a fair number of people on AF/TN flights that are transiting over PPT to places like MOZ and BOB. PPT is to the French Polynesia as HNL was to the rest of Hawaii. While HNL has lost some of its importance in funneling passengers to the Neighbor Islands PPT is still very much a transit hub to the rest of FP.

So with that said, if we look at the entirety of the French Polynesia can the combined in-place tourist infrastructure handle demand brought about by additional service?

77H

what about route ORY/TIJ/PPT ? Gives them access to 3.5 million people around San Diego region + some population of LA, who won't pay the high Air Tahiti Nui prices.

If I remember correctly AOM until around 2001, flew a DC10 ORY/LAX/PPT/NOU/SYD.

USAOZ wrote:

what about route ORY/TIJ/PPT ? Gives them access to 3.5 million people around San Diego region + some population of LA, who won't pay the high Air Tahiti Nui prices.

If I remember correctly AOM until around 2001, flew a DC10 ORY/LAX/PPT/NOU/SYD.

I don’t see the PPT crowd wanting to head down to TIJ first. Either from Paris or San Diego.

SFOtoORD wrote:

USAOZ wrote:

what about route ORY/TIJ/PPT ? Gives them access to 3.5 million people around San Diego region + some population of LA, who won't pay the high Air Tahiti Nui prices.

If I remember correctly AOM until around 2001, flew a DC10 ORY/LAX/PPT/NOU/SYD.

I don’t see the PPT crowd wanting to head down to TIJ first. Either from Paris or San Diego.

Agreed PPT is no budget holiday, nor is most of the Pacific.

zkncj wrote:

SFOtoORD wrote:

USAOZ wrote:

what about route ORY/TIJ/PPT ? Gives them access to 3.5 million people around San Diego region + some population of LA, who won't pay the high Air Tahiti Nui prices.

If I remember correctly AOM until around 2001, flew a DC10 ORY/LAX/PPT/NOU/SYD.

I don’t see the PPT crowd wanting to head down to TIJ first. Either from Paris or San Diego.

Agreed PPT is no budget holiday, nor is most of the Pacific.

not talking about a budget holiday, just cheaper airfares. Big growing market segment who want cheaper airfares, not cheaper accommodation,once they get there. Many people staying 4 or 5 star, don't fly anything but Y class & many will spend more on accommodation, if they get cheaper airfares & let's face it, LAX is a zoo.

If you live in San Diego region or anywhere south of LA, who the hell would want to make their way to very congested LAX, when CBX is on south side of San Diego.