Today Lufthansa starts its Berlin Airlift 2.0: FRA-TXL with A340-300, from november 747-400; MUC-TXL with A340-600; ZRH-TXL with Swiss A330-300; VIE-TXL with Austrian Airlines 767. Planning with this equipment on daily basis. Intermediate increase of seats with heavy equipment due to need. Regular operations with additional A321s starting summer 2018.

Executive Harry Hohmeister: Neither TXL nor BER will be a future hub of Lufthansa. BER too late, too small. If both airports stay open, Lufthansa will decide, which it will use. But only one.

Longhaul - just a couple of flights from Berlin in the future, e.g. New York (starting november 8th, five times a week). Most flights overseas via FRA, MUC, ZRH or VIE.

Not all Air Berlin routes will exist in the future, e.g. Danzig, Hurghada or Keflavik.

Interview in german only:
https://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/articl ... holen.html

Add: No gate service for 747 in TXL possible, handling via stairs and buses.

It must be a real challenge scheduling all these changes. A lot of work goes into it. These widebodies require much larger turnaround times, which has a large effect on such small hops. The actual gain in seats on these routes aren't equal to the actual upgauge in aircraft size. But it's very interesting

Footage from last year (soccer charter - A340-600):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOjCCpXsXjg

No photos or videos available from today. Maybe someone finds any...

If LH Group's strategy is to funnel all Berlin pax via FRA, MUC, ZRH & VIE) then they aren't offering any competitive advantage over, for example, IAG/One World (funnel via HEL, LHR, DUB, MAD, DOH). My Berlin based colleagues tend to go via LHR (TATL) or HEL (Asia) already.
They seem to be throwing away home town advantage.

Brixerl wrote:

Today Lufthansa starts its Berlin Airlift 2.0: FRA-TXL with A340-300, from november 747-400; MUC-TXL with A340-600; ZRH-TXL with Swiss A330-300; VIE-TXL with Austrian Airlines 767. Planning with this equipment on daily basis. Intermediate increase of seats with heavy equipment due to need. Regular operations with additional A321s starting summer 2018.

Executive Harry Hohmeister: Neither TXL nor BER will be a future hub of Lufthansa. BER too late, too small. If both airports stay open, Lufthansa will decide, which it will use. But only one.

Longhaul - just a couple of flights from Berlin in the future, e.g. New York (starting november 8th, five times a week). Most flights overseas via FRA, MUC, ZRH or VIE.

Not all Air Berlin routes will exist in the future, e.g. Danzig, Hurghada or Keflavik.

Interview in german only:
https://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/articl ... holen.html

Add: No gate service for 747 in TXL possible, handling via stairs and buses.

If Lufthansa refuses to develop Berlin, other airlines will come in with their A321's, MoM's, 787 for long haul connections. Or KL & BA offering that one stop hub from Berlin to the rest of the world. Maybe KLM will fly A333 from Berlin to AMS in the morning.

I see a lot of hope in Hohmeister's comments. W'll see.

keesje wrote:

Brixerl wrote:

Today Lufthansa starts its Berlin Airlift 2.0: FRA-TXL with A340-300, from november 747-400; MUC-TXL with A340-600; ZRH-TXL with Swiss A330-300; VIE-TXL with Austrian Airlines 767. Planning with this equipment on daily basis. Intermediate increase of seats with heavy equipment due to need. Regular operations with additional A321s starting summer 2018.

Executive Harry Hohmeister: Neither TXL nor BER will be a future hub of Lufthansa. BER too late, too small. If both airports stay open, Lufthansa will decide, which it will use. But only one.

Longhaul - just a couple of flights from Berlin in the future, e.g. New York (starting november 8th, five times a week). Most flights overseas via FRA, MUC, ZRH or VIE.

Not all Air Berlin routes will exist in the future, e.g. Danzig, Hurghada or Keflavik.

Interview in german only:
https://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/articl ... holen.html

Add: No gate service for 747 in TXL possible, handling via stairs and buses.

If Lufthansa refuses to develop Berlin, other airlines will come in with their A321's, MoM's, 787 for long haul connections. Or KL & BA offering that one stop hub from Berlin to the rest of the world. Maybe KLM will fly A333 from Berlin to AMS in the morning.

I see a lot of hope in Hohmeister's comments. W'll see.

Yes long haul LCC's, except a few routes for Mainline.

If and when Brandenburg ever opens, will DY seek to develop that airfield as a new hub or focus city? It looks as though Eurowings will focus on Cologne.

It is quite understandable that LH doesn´t want to hub in Berlin. BER is still not open and already to small, TXL will likely close when BER opens. So they have no certainty to plan and it is resonable to wait and see.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

If and when Brandenburg ever opens, will DY seek to develop that airfield as a new hub or focus city? It looks as though Eurowings will focus on Cologne.

Eurowings wants to move from Cologne to Düsseldorf (after Air Berlins longhaul-hub in DUS is closed now). Maybe Cologne is "open" as well soon.

Meanwhile Transavia is closing their operations in Munich tomorrow. Air Berlins last flight is friday - MUC-TXL.

LH would be foolish not to hub in Berlin. Down the line it will likely be a profitable market with a good catchment area. Yet the current airport situation is far from optimal and has certainly contributed to AB’s woes.

TheLion wrote:

LH would be foolish not to hub in Berlin. Down the line it will likely be a profitable market with a good catchment area. Yet the current airport situation is far from optimal and has certainly contributed to AB’s woes.

Even if they do eventually hub at BER, why reveal all the cards to the world now?

GianiDC wrote:

It is quite understandable that LH doesn´t want to hub in Berlin. BER is still not open and already to small, TXL will likely close when BER opens. So they have no certainty to plan and it is resonable to wait and see.

The current airport situation forces a wait and see. BER is too small to close TXL now.

At least people are being moved so the economy functions.

The politicians were just schooled in the cost of delays and limited expansion.

What is small about BER? Is it the terminal?

BAINY3 wrote:

What is small about BER? Is it the terminal?

Mostly the terminal. Original concepts were 3 runway, and now it will be 2. Cities always outgrow their airports and BER won't meet regional demand. It isn't LHR with large widebodies. The airport is also going to have a curfew which cuts capacity.

Lightsaber

Berlin is not that high yielding and the infrastructure is not up to it anyway. AB burned a lot of money trying long haul in BER using TXL and if BER opens as the only airport it will be too small anyway. If TXL and BER stay open, TXL is the city airport and for many passengers flying from TXL via FRA is probably as fast as taking the train to BER.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

If and when Brandenburg ever opens, will DY seek to develop that airfield as a new hub or focus city? It looks as though Eurowings will focus on Cologne.

I was thinking the same thing. It seems like it's a godsend for expansion hungry DY.

The nightmares of BER just keep on rolling on. New airport is built but not to code resulting in possible knock down & rebuild. AB goes belly up & LH have made it clear BER won’t become a hub.
Like many have said LH give this opportunity a miss I’m sure a LCC, or KL/AF/BA will move in.

EK413

Maybe we will see Transavia trying Berlin out as well. They tried the german market and while not being totally unsuccesfull the MUC is to competitve.

You know that BER has to take all the traffic from TXL and SXF? If it opens, slots will be used up by airlines already having slots at either TXL or SXF.

If it opens. Big IF.

keesje wrote:

If Lufthansa refuses to develop Berlin, other airlines will come in with their A321's, MoM's, 787 for long haul connections. Or KL & BA offering that one stop hub from Berlin to the rest of the world. Maybe KLM will fly A333 from Berlin to AMS in the morning.

I see a lot of hope in Hohmeister's comments. W'll see.

Hi Keesje,

Not to pi** on your parade, but the reason LH is not particularly willing to bet&invest in the Berlin market is probably because the market is neither particularly large (for the size of the city) nor high yield. People seem to forget that the failure of AB is also due in part to Berlin's infrastructural problems (BER), as well as the local market never blossoming into anything beyond what would mostly suit LCCs, hence the need to invest heavily into a far richer market: DUS.
There's no creamy cake to be split there really, so it only makes sense that they are re-accommodating pax via their existing hubs - it's just an momentary emergency contingency plan, nothing more than that . Having a third hub in Berlin would not make sense for LH. Don't hold your breath...no airlines will be flocking to Berlin with 321s, MoMs (!?) and 787s... simply because they never did...it's not as if the market is suddenly going to explode in Berlin.... the city and the catchment are remaining exactly what they always were....

oldannyboy wrote:

keesje wrote:

If Lufthansa refuses to develop Berlin, other airlines will come in with their A321's, MoM's, 787 for long haul connections. Or KL & BA offering that one stop hub from Berlin to the rest of the world. Maybe KLM will fly A333 from Berlin to AMS in the morning.

I see a lot of hope in Hohmeister's comments. W'll see.

Hi Keesje,

Not to pi** on your parade, but the reason LH is not particularly willing to bet&invest in the Berlin market is probably because the market is neither particularly large (for the size of the city) nor high yield. People seem to forget that the failure of AB is also due in part to Berlin's infrastructural problems (BER), as well as the local market never blossoming into anything beyond what would mostly suit LCCs, hence the need to invest heavily into a far richer market: DUS.
There's no creamy cake to be split there really, so it only makes sense that they are re-accommodating pax via their existing hubs - it's just an momentary emergency contingency plan, nothing more than that . Having a third hub in Berlin would not make sense for LH. Don't hold your breath...no airlines will be flocking to Berlin with 321s, MoMs (!?) and 787s... simply because they never did...it's not as if the market is suddenly going to explode in Berlin.... the city and the catchment are remaining exactly what they always were....

I think one can talk a market down, if one wants to. Berlin may not be the richest catchment in Germany, but it is also not poor on an international standard. Yes LH does not want to set up a hub in BER and I assume direct flights from BER will decline. LH has never liked to increase the number of its hubs, it has fought long to keep those hubs to first one and then two only in Germany, but has given up on that and adds DUS as a third now. Here I define Eurowings as LH.
But If LH wants to move passenger from Berlin through its hubs in FRA, MUC, VIE, ZRH and DUS, there must be the capacity to move those passengers from BER to those hubs. So either LH keeps using wide body frames on those routes, or buys additional narrow body frames and hires the personal to run them for this traffic with a high frequency. The number of passengers will not decrease. Or LH accepts to loose this traffic.

Increasing capacity or frequency on the connections mentioned is unavoidable anyway, as lots of the traffic is O+D.

mjoelnir wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

keesje wrote:

If Lufthansa refuses to develop Berlin, other airlines will come in with their A321's, MoM's, 787 for long haul connections. Or KL & BA offering that one stop hub from Berlin to the rest of the world. Maybe KLM will fly A333 from Berlin to AMS in the morning.

I see a lot of hope in Hohmeister's comments. W'll see.

Hi Keesje,

Not to pi** on your parade, but the reason LH is not particularly willing to bet&invest in the Berlin market is probably because the market is neither particularly large (for the size of the city) nor high yield. People seem to forget that the failure of AB is also due in part to Berlin's infrastructural problems (BER), as well as the local market never blossoming into anything beyond what would mostly suit LCCs, hence the need to invest heavily into a far richer market: DUS.
There's no creamy cake to be split there really, so it only makes sense that they are re-accommodating pax via their existing hubs - it's just an momentary emergency contingency plan, nothing more than that . Having a third hub in Berlin would not make sense for LH. Don't hold your breath...no airlines will be flocking to Berlin with 321s, MoMs (!?) and 787s... simply because they never did...it's not as if the market is suddenly going to explode in Berlin.... the city and the catchment are remaining exactly what they always were....

But If LH wants to move passenger from Berlin through its hubs in FRA, MUC, VIE, ZRH and DUS, there must be the capacity to move those passengers from BER to those hubs. So either LH keeps using wide body frames on those routes, or buys additional narrow body frames and hires the personal to run them for this traffic with a high frequency. The number of passengers will not decrease. Or LH accepts to loose this traffic.

This: or buys additional narrow body frames and hires the personal to run them for this traffic with a high frequency
I don't think it would be realistic to (wanting to) see anything beyond this pretty concrete (and perfectly feasible) scenario....

EK413 wrote:

The nightmares of BER just keep on rolling on. New airport is built but not to code resulting in possible knock down & rebuild. AB goes belly up & LH have made it clear BER won’t become a hub.
Like many have said LH give this opportunity a miss I’m sure a LCC, or KL/AF/BA will move in.

EK413

Wait---tearing down the terminal at Brandenburg that hasn't opened yet? I did read about how the building has problems---but is a knock-down the only real option?

well, knocking down the building might indeed be an Option when the last step of a moving escalator is not part of that escalator. The longer it takes the more outdated is that place. Thank God the Berlin airlift was a Military operatiob.

Noshow wrote:

If it opens. Big IF.

IF were based at Schonefeld weren't they?

oldannyboy wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

Hi Keesje,

Not to pi** on your parade, but the reason LH is not particularly willing to bet&invest in the Berlin market is probably because the market is neither particularly large (for the size of the city) nor high yield. People seem to forget that the failure of AB is also due in part to Berlin's infrastructural problems (BER), as well as the local market never blossoming into anything beyond what would mostly suit LCCs, hence the need to invest heavily into a far richer market: DUS.
There's no creamy cake to be split there really, so it only makes sense that they are re-accommodating pax via their existing hubs - it's just an momentary emergency contingency plan, nothing more than that . Having a third hub in Berlin would not make sense for LH. Don't hold your breath...no airlines will be flocking to Berlin with 321s, MoMs (!?) and 787s... simply because they never did...it's not as if the market is suddenly going to explode in Berlin.... the city and the catchment are remaining exactly what they always were....

But If LH wants to move passenger from Berlin through its hubs in FRA, MUC, VIE, ZRH and DUS, there must be the capacity to move those passengers from BER to those hubs. So either LH keeps using wide body frames on those routes, or buys additional narrow body frames and hires the personal to run them for this traffic with a high frequency. The number of passengers will not decrease. Or LH accepts to loose this traffic.

This: or buys additional narrow body frames and hires the personal to run them for this traffic with a high frequency
I don't think it would be realistic to (wanting to) see anything beyond this pretty concrete (and perfectly feasible) scenario....

Than they have to do that, buy frames and add crew, both not done overnight.

Can someone in the know provide a short summary, if possible on the infrastructure issues facing the new airport?

C010T3 wrote:

TheLion wrote:

LH would be foolish not to hub in Berlin. Down the line it will likely be a profitable market with a good catchment area. Yet the current airport situation is far from optimal and has certainly contributed to AB’s woes.

Even if they do eventually hub at BER, why reveal all the cards to the world now?

If they don't, others will...

FlyRow wrote:

Maybe we will see Transavia trying Berlin out as well. They tried the german market and while not being totally unsuccesfull the MUC is to competitve.

They could. AMS is a well known hub and KLM has a good brand recognition in Berlin. It sounds foolish but "Transavia" just doesn't work in German. Sounds like Transylvania/Romanian and there is no connection with KLM/The Netherlands. Just my 2cents but could be one reason they failed in MUC. Does that name even mean anything in Dutch?

Planeflyer wrote:

Can someone in the know provide a short summary, if possible on the infrastructure issues facing the new airport?

That is hard. Many, many reasons. To keep it very short, after a law suite of the loosing general contractor for the construction of the airport, the public airport operation company (owned by 2 states and the federal government no less) of the then 3 Berlin airports was charged with building one. Turns out they didn't know shit how to do that. What a surprise.

mat66 wrote:

Does that name even mean anything in Dutch?

I guess the origin of the name is pretty obvious - TRANSport and AVIAtion

Btw. I don’t like the name at all. It sounds like it was an airline for transgender people.

DY is drooling over this. Expect a variety of longhauls from them.

Brixerl wrote:

Today Lufthansa starts its Berlin Airlift 2.0: FRA-TXL with A340-300, from november 747-400; MUC-TXL with A340-600; ZRH-TXL with Swiss A330-300; VIE-TXL with Austrian Airlines 767. Planning with this equipment on daily basis. Intermediate increase of seats with heavy equipment due to need. Regular operations with additional A321s starting summer 2018.

Add: No gate service for 747 in TXL possible, handling via stairs and buses.

LH 747 in TXL will be awesome, took that a year ago or two when it was around for a very short time. No F sales mind you

As far as their strategy to do routes like TXL-JFK through LH 330s as a stopgap before switching to EW, that's about as far as LH Group will take long haul routes ex-Berlin. Anyone have the schedules for LX and OS? Did a quick spot check and I see some up gauging to A321s, but not really 767s / 777s on their part. I'm surprised they can't do more A321s instead of 767s / 777s since they're still sending CS100s and E195s...

keesje wrote:

If Lufthansa refuses to develop Berlin, other airlines will come in with their A321's, MoM's, 787 for long haul connections. Or KL & BA offering that one stop hub from Berlin to the rest of the world. Maybe KLM will fly A333 from Berlin to AMS in the morning.

I see a lot of hope in Hohmeister's comments. W'll see.

I've seen the KL 737s sit out there on the tarmac and it's gotta be hell if you have more than 4-5 widebodies out there at the same time. Obviously you could put a 767 or a 330 at A00, and another 777 / 747 next to the LH Technik Hangar and one 777 / 747 next to A00 where all those tarmac AB 320s / Dash 8's used to be, but that's about it. The check in counters, checkpoints right at the gates and the corresponding airside waiting areas would probably be the biggest bottlenecks since 200+ people lining up in front of say A15 (which used to hold the UA 763s) impedes people in reaching their narrow body flights at say A14 through A11.

I don't think airlines are refusing to develop Berlin further, I'd say it's the people (since they elect officials who don't care about air travel and seem more interested in night time curfews and bike lanes) and the limitations of the regional economy. Most capitals in Europe are a lift to their respective national economy, Berlin actually drags it down: https://qz.com/753244/berlin-is-the-onl ... s-economy/

Under those circumstances, one shouldn't be surprised that EW A330s are likely among the biggest regular equipment for TXL (as AB's A330s have been) outside of say UA / DL 767s, TK / HU A330s or the QR 777. Nothing wrong with 1-stops through LHR, AMS, ZRH, VIE, MUC or FRA. Just because you're a political capital doesn't mean you'll automatically get wide bodies to everywhere. You'd need to be a major corporate town as well for that since widebodies have lots of room up front that wants to be paid for.

PanHAM wrote:

well, knocking down the building might indeed be an option when the last step of a moving escalator is not part of that escalator. The longer it takes the more outdated is that place. Thank God the Berlin airlift was a Military operation.

...and the people who blockaded the city back then were / are in charge of closing down the West Berlin airports now. They were happy when THF closed down, and they are pushing for TXL to close. They want SXF to be the jewel that it always was in their minds through 1989, the airport of the capital. Stay colorful, have lots of flights into the world, keep large corporations out, and the mayor's delegation won't need more than 20 seats up front so an A330 will be just fine.

EK413 wrote:

The nightmares of BER just keep on rolling on. New airport is built but not to code resulting in possible knock down & rebuild. AB goes belly up & LH have made it clear BER won’t become a hub.
Like many have said LH give this opportunity a miss I’m sure a LCC, or KL/AF/BA will move in.

EK413

Part of why AB was in trouble is because of excessive taxation. Now much of the extra tax revenue will have to be spent on social plans for soon to be former AB employees.

AB wanted a hub and got half a hub at TXL and nothing at BER / SXF. The politicians who took on the responsibility of supervising the airport replacement / build out of SXF never wanted a large hub airport. They planned on something that would literally combine the capacities of THF, TXL and SXF. They thought the city population would either shrink slightly or stay around the same. They think that rail travel, bus travel to the ICC bus terminal and a couple of leisure flights on A320s to sun destinations and European capitals are as far flying should go.

No one counted on or planned for more intercontinental routes ex-Berlin, basically just clobbering together the existing TXL routes that the above mentioned widebody carriers currently operate. LH group sees it for what it is and acts according by expanding EW there, filling the gap that AB left behind. I guess O&D business traffic was just good enough for a TXL-JFK route, which is neither connected to the rest of LH or the UA hub in EWR for that matter. Couldn't even do MIA, PUJ or VRA from there since it's too much leisure traffic. Good for EW, not good enough for LH non-stops.

Everyone who is premium enough can rough it in Euro business economy seats for an hour or two while going through LHR, AMS, FRA or whereever. No loss to Berlin at that point. Many West Berliners prefer TXL over SXF since that's in the "Eastern Zone", many East Berliners or Brandenburgers only have enough disposable income for U2, FR and similar to get to the Mediterranean or slightly beyond, but are perfectly fine with a 1-stop if it's $50 cheaper. Most people in Berlin either don't want BER or don't care because they don't fly more than twice a year. The biggest thing they care about this the corruption drama around the airport and perhaps the mild embarrassment around the brazen continued milking of government contracts. But look at the construction of train stations, rail lines and highways in the area and it's almost always the same. The main difference is that with BER it's more visible than usual.

Took the second flight with A340-600 MUC-TXL yesterday. LH-340-600 has 307 seats - only 93 (seven business, 86 economy) where sold...

konkret wrote:

mat66 wrote:

Does that name even mean anything in Dutch?

I guess the origin of the name is pretty obvious - TRANSport and AVIAtion

Never figured it out, so thanks. For some strange reason I always pronounced it Tran - savia

Are these widebody routes definitely staying for the whole winter schedule? I've been looking in February (and even next month) on the FRA-TXL and MUC-TXL routes and I only see narrowbodies.

Luxair is taking over the route from TXL to SCN (to be flown 18x week, operated by Adria)

opticalilyushin wrote:

Are these widebody routes definitely staying for the whole winter schedule? I've been looking in February (and even next month) on the FRA-TXL and MUC-TXL routes and I only see narrowbodies.

As I mentioned above - Lufthansa said, they will decide on a daily basis. Those flights are additional lift. Additional lift to the narrowbodys. Flight times seem to be parallel to existing regular flights. For example: Yesterdays 340-600 MUC-TXL departed 5 pm, the regular NB 5 pm as well. Therefore nobody knows in advance when those flights will be scheduled. Except the 747-service from FRA. In this case LH said, it will at least stay for november.

So there's isn't a published schedule for the A346 MUC flights like there is with the 747 to FRA? I would like to take a trip encompassing both of these services

Armodeen wrote:

So there's isn't a published schedule for the A346 MUC flights like there is with the 747 to FRA? I would like to take a trip encompassing both of these services

I found my 340-flight three days in advance...

n729pa wrote:

Noshow wrote:

If it opens. Big IF.

IF were based at Schonefeld weren't they?

(Seems most people missed that posting...)

Can we bring them back as the new Berlin based airline?

but only with Tupolevs and iljushins. and the SED/Linke must pay for it,,,,,,,,,,,

aemoreira1981 wrote:

EK413 wrote:

The nightmares of BER just keep on rolling on. New airport is built but not to code resulting in possible knock down & rebuild. AB goes belly up & LH have made it clear BER won’t become a hub.
Like many have said LH give this opportunity a miss I’m sure a LCC, or KL/AF/BA will move in.

EK413

Wait---tearing down the terminal at Brandenburg that hasn't opened yet? I did read about how the building has problems---but is a knock-down the only real option?

Here’s a brief summary of issues found with BER.

The Brandenburg Terminal 2 will be the old complex of Schönefeld Airport:
https://flug.check24.de/news/schoenefeld-wird-ber-terminal-62244

It's old, but it's already working.
The Terminal 1 has some technical....issues:

Just two months ago, the transformer station exploded:
http://www.bild.de/regional/berlin/flughafen-berlin-brandenburg-international/grosseinsatz-nach-explosion-am-umspannwerk-50708962.bild.html

On february 2017, It became public the faliture of the sprinkler system. The pipes are too thin and the roof needs to be opened and the pipes will get exchanged:
http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/hauptstadtflughafen-wird-zur-farce-ber-kaempft-jetzt-mit-zu-duennen-wasserrohren-und-defekten-tueren_id_6631123.html
(There is also the risk of collapsing of the ceiling. The roof was found to be too heavy to hold up
http://www.dw.com/en/danger-of-collapsing-roof-may-delay-berlin-airport-construction/a-18728091)
In february 2017 It became public that the 80% of the doors do not open and will be replaced:
http://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/neue-probleme-darum-wird-der-ber-auch-2017-nicht-eroeffnet

Also 600 walls will be replaced:
https://www.rt.com/news/316937-berlin-airport-tear-down/

EK413