Boeing may consider restarting 767 pax model production

MoKa777 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:30 pm

Hi everyone.

According to a Leeham article:

https://leehamnews.com/2017/10/19/boein ... nger-line/

Boeing may consider restarting 767-300ER pax production to bridge the gap for customers until the potential MoM aircraft arrives sometime next decade.

It is by no means a sure thing but interesting nonetheless.

Opinions..?

Edit: wording

MD80MKE · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:40 pm

This probably means a long time before MOM gets built.

SFOtoORD · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:41 pm

Wonder if they’d reduce weight or PIP the engines to have a slightly better product.

PPVRA · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:41 pm

You’d think replacing the 737 would be a higher priority than the MoM

ikolkyo · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:43 pm

Wow I wonder who is onboard with this.

fcogafa · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:44 pm

50-60 might suggest United as that is about their fleet size. Is the replacement for a 767 a 767? Who would have guessed that

2175301 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:50 pm

A new engine would make this very realistic... Can they someone to build one? It could also be retrofitted onto older aircraft as well...

Have a great day,

jplatts · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:57 pm

Is there a real need to continue to produce the 767-300, 767-300ER, and 767-400ER if Boeing already manufactures 787-8 and 787-9 planes that are similar in size to the 767-300, 767-300ER, and 767-400ER planes? If so, why is the need there to produce 767-300, 767-300ER, and/or 767-400ER planes?

MoKa777 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:57 pm

Maybe a major-ish overhaul of the 767 will offer a fantastic, right-sized aircraft faster and cheaper (for Boeing and airlines) than a MoM.

Something along the lines of the A330neo.

I know this option has been discussed to death but with this news maybe it won't be such a bad idea.

Airbus may have the A321 and A339 but Boeing has something in a sweet spot inbetween that they don't... the 767.

After all these years, it speaks volumes that this aircraft can't really find an adequate replacement...

Those engineers, designers and/or their families need to get some retroactive royalties for the work they did back then.

32andBelow · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:58 pm

The already replaced the 767. It is the 787-8

cheapgreek · Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:59 pm

I always felt a 767MAX would do quite well. If the 737 can go through four versions, what about one upgrade for the 767. The line is still open, the 767 was well received by many airlines and it would be the lowest cost option.

codc10 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:00 pm

2175301 wrote:
A new engine would make this very realistic... Can they someone to build one? It could also be retrofitted onto older aircraft as well...

Have a great day,

I wonder if the 763ER could be revamped with the 764 main gear, possibly allowing installation of the GEnx-2B67 (105" fan)?

32andBelow wrote:
The already replaced the 767. It is the 787-8

The 787-8 is about 30t heavier than the 763ER, despite a similar configuration. A reengined 763ER (or even 764) would be very competitive with 787 economics on shorter hauls.

flyingclrs727 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:04 pm

2175301 wrote:
A new engine would make this very realistic... Can they someone to build one? It could also be retrofitted onto older aircraft as well...

Have a great day,

Well there is the GENx-2 used on the 747-8. If new passenger 767's are possible, why not additional 767-400's too?

Aptivaboy · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:05 pm

Wow. For years, A-Netters have discussed the possibility of a 767-MAX, and dreaming of a production line restart, and no wit may actually, just possibly occur? Maybe the collective mental karma of A-Net had an impact!!!

Seriously, a serious PIP, some judicious weight savings, potentially new winglets or raked wingtips and engines and the basic 763 becomes a whole lot more competitive. I’d love to see some numbers on this. I just wonder if it's worth Boeing's while in effort and treasure to build a "bridge" aircraft until the MOM arrives, let alone whether many potential buyers will want an airplane whose replacement is already on the horizon in some vague form. Let the bean counting commence.

32andBelow · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:14 pm

codc10 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
A new engine would make this very realistic... Can they someone to build one? It could also be retrofitted onto older aircraft as well...

Have a great day,

I wonder if the 763ER could be revamped with the 764 main gear, possibly allowing installation of the GEnx-2B67 (105" fan)?

32andBelow wrote:
The already replaced the 767. It is the 787-8

The 787-8 is about 30t heavier than the 763ER, despite a similar configuration. A reengined 763ER (or even 764) would be very competitive with 787 economics on shorter hauls.

Ok but why have 2 subfleets if they are only competitive? Boeing pitched the 787-3 and no one wanted it.

flyingclrs727 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:18 pm

codc10 wrote:
The 787-8 is about 30t heavier than the 763ER, despite a similar configuration. A reengined 763ER (or even 764) would be very competitive with 787 economics on shorter hauls.

How much difficulty would there be to certify the cockpit for the the 767-2C in the 767-300 or 767-400.

Also, would it be possible to thin the walls of the 767 enough to fit the same seats as the 9-abreast 787? An 8-abreast 767 with the same seats as a 787 would have better economics than existing 767's.

I wonder if Boeing could offer a winglet like the ones on the 737 Max on new build 767's?

NichCage · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:18 pm

There are some operators who have newer 767's. Airlines like Air Astana and LATAM do, and they work pretty well for them.

JannEejit · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:26 pm

So would a MAX'd up 767 have raked wing tips like the 764 or blended winglets like the 763 ? I'm all for a new take on this fine bird. It's another step towards a 'MOM'. Hey let's call it the 767-STEP-MOM ! ;-)

DfwRevolution · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:31 pm

codc10 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The already replaced the 767. It is the 787-8

The 787-8 is about 30t heavier than the 763ER, despite a similar configuration. A reengined 763ER (or even 764) would be very competitive with 787 economics on shorter hauls.

The 787-8 has about 20% more cabin area than a 763ER. With equal cabin products, the seating configuration will not be similar.

And for the 10^6 time, the OEW of the 787-8 is among the most overwrought subject on this site.

Devilfish · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:31 pm

codc10 wrote:
I wonder if the 763ER could be revamped with the 764 main gear, possibly allowing installation of the GEnx-2B67 (105" fan)?

A reengined 763ER (or even 764) would be very competitive with 787 economics on shorter hauls.

As a few on this board had been saying all along, a new composite wing, a lower-thrust GEnx-2B derivative and the 787's flight deck would make for a very compelling 767MAX MoM on the cheap and quick :!:

Anything less would be a non-starter. It took Boeing until the A330neo's first flight before at least hinting that the idea may indeed have some merit. :idea:

Boeing778X · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:32 pm

Pretty soon they'll get the idea that the 767 is already their MoM, and then they'll fall further behind, marketwise.

Boeing is quickly losing their drive! By 2025 they have a few awesome widebodies and basically inferiority under the 787 :banghead:

While Airbus figures out "Hey, this A322 thing actually might not be a bad idea!"

Then they say "Huh! The CS500 might actually be a great airplane!"

Then Airbus says "I'm making all the right decisions and-WOW! Let's do this!":

Is is bad that I'm rooting for Airbus at the moment? :gasp:

717atOGG · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:35 pm

I personally think a 767 MAX would do very well. If Boeing reengines the 763, redesigns the wing and cockpit, and uses some cabin design ideas from the 787, they'd have a very competitive product. Sure, the 767 design is 40 years old, but I think it's still sufficient in this day and age, and it'd be a good stopgap MOM.

NameOmitted · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:36 pm

So... What's the chance that Boeing is seriously thinking of re-doing their priorities for a small aircraft (say, sized for the C-Series and the 737) vs a MOM?

subramak1 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:38 pm

717atOGG wrote:
I personally think a 767 MAX would do very well. If Boeing reengines the 763, redesigns the wing and cockpit, and uses some cabin design ideas from the 787, they'd have a very competitive product. Sure, the 767 design is 40 years old, but I think it's still sufficient in this day and age, and it'd be a good stopgap MOM.

If you have a new engine, new wing, new cockpit wont you call it a new plane :-)

Subu

nine4nine · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:40 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Pretty soon they'll get the idea that the 767 is already their MoM, and then they'll fall further behind, marketwise.

Boeing is quickly losing their drive! By 2025 they have a few awesome widebodies and basically inferiority under the 787 While Airbus figures out "Hey, this A322 thing actually might not be a bad idea!"

Then they say "Huh! The CS500 might actually be a great airplane!"

Is is bad that I'm rooting for Airbus at the moment?

No. I love Boeings but I'm with you on this. Airbus is dancing circles around Boeing. While Boeing continues to play dress up with antique mid century models, Airbus is killing them with newer modern and innovative product. They WILL beat Boeing to the punch on a MOM aircraft unless Boeing decides to do a 707MAX.

Boeing778X · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:41 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
So... What's the chance that Boeing is seriously thinking of re-doing their priorities for a small aircraft (say, sized for the C-Series and the 737) vs a MOM?

You mean the NSA.

If anyone at Boeing has an iota of common sense, they would develop the MoM AND NSA side-by-side. Now that the C-Series is in the hands of Airbus, they may have to make a decision soon.

flyingclrs727 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:42 pm

JannEejit wrote:
So would a MAX'd up 767 have raked wing tips like the 764 or blended winglets like the 763 ? I'm all for a new take on this fine bird. It's another step towards a 'MOM'. Hey let's call it the 767-STEP-MOM !

Why not 737 Max style winglets?

gatibosgru · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:42 pm

Should be fun seeing the fanboys who criticize Airbus for always wanting to "NEO" everything as an easy solution.

I could see this being very attractive to some airlines, but I expect it to lose to the A330CEO/NEO in terms of orders.

Stitch · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:43 pm

PPVRA wrote:
You’d think replacing the 737 would be a higher priority than the MoM

The 737 MAX is rapidly closing in on 4000 orders and should have many more thousand in her so there is no real urgency to replace it, especially now that the 737-10 is in the mix and finding strong interest from customers.

ikolkyo wrote:
Wow I wonder who is onboard with this.

fcogafa wrote:
50-60 might suggest United as that is about their fleet size.

I expect AA would submit (or has submitted) an RFP as well as they are said to be talking to Airbus about a 767-300ER replacement (A330-800) so why not also talk to Boeing.

jplatts wrote:
Is there a real need to continue to produce the 767-300, 767-300ER, and 767-400ER if Boeing already manufactures 787-8 and 787-9 planes that are similar in size to the 767-300, 767-300ER, and 767-400ER planes? If so, why is the need there to produce 767-300, 767-300ER, and/or 767-400ER planes?

Optimized for

MOM and the 767 are designed around

32andBelow wrote:
codc10 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
A new engine would make this very realistic... Can they someone to build one? It could also be retrofitted onto older aircraft as well...

Have a great day,

I wonder if the 763ER could be revamped with the 764 main gear, possibly allowing installation of the GEnx-2B67 (105" fan)?

32andBelow"Ok but why have 2 subfleets if they are only competitive? Boeing pitched the 787-3 and no one wanted it.

The 787-3 suffered from compromised aerodynamics compared to the 787-8 due to the shorter wing and the planned weight savings probably were not going to be as good as planned due to all the changes the 787-8 design went through. While a 767 also has a shorter wing, it's going to weigh 30,000kg less than the 787-8 and ~20,000kg less than the 787-8.

[quote="NichCage wrote:
There are some operators who have newer 767's. Airlines like Air Astana and LATAM do, and they work pretty well for them.

MoKa777 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:43 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Hey let's call it the 767-STEP-MOM !

Devilfish wrote:
...would make for a very compelling 767MAX MoM on the cheap and quick

Dudes! Awesome names!

Anyway, I think if this is a stopgap offering until a potential MoM, it will not be upgraded in any significant way. Maybe PiPs or slight wingtip device changes but nothing else major or meaningful.

I guess it will just be a way to keep customers of really, really old 767s happy until a real replacement comes around.

I would love to see a true 767-Step-MAX-MoM become a reality and do great, badass things but that is highly unlikely...

Boeing778X · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:45 pm

nine4nine wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
Pretty soon they'll get the idea that the 767 is already their MoM, and then they'll fall further behind, marketwise.

Boeing is quickly losing their drive! By 2025 they have a few awesome widebodies and basically inferiority under the 787 While Airbus figures out "Hey, this A322 thing actually might not be a bad idea!"

Then they say "Huh! The CS500 might actually be a great airplane!"

Is is bad that I'm rooting for Airbus at the moment?

No. I love Boeings but I'm with you on this. Airbus is dancing circles around Boeing. While Boeing continues to play dress up with antique mid century models, Airbus is killing them with newer modern and innovative product. They WILL beat Boeing to the punch on a MOM aircraft unless Boeing decides to do a 707MAX.

707 MAX! Ha! Of course, I guess I can picture what that would kind of look like:

But you're spot on! Boeing needs to stop making Me Too products and actually innovate something in the segments below the 787.

Stitch · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:46 pm

ytz wrote:
So they are going to insist on offering yesterday's airplane tomorrow. Why?

Because it appears that customers are insisting to buy scores of them?

flyingclrs727 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:46 pm

Devilfish wrote:
codc10 wrote:
I wonder if the 763ER could be revamped with the 764 main gear, possibly allowing installation of the GEnx-2B67 (105" fan)?

A reengined 763ER (or even 764) would be very competitive with 787 economics on shorter hauls.

As a few on this board had been saying all along, a new composite wing, a lower-thrust GEnx-2B derivative and the 787's flight deck would make for a very compelling 767MAX MoM on the cheap and quick Anything less would be a non-starter. It took Boeing until the A330neo's first flight before at least hinting that the idea may indeed have some merit.

A new composite wing would not be cheap.

jbs2886 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:50 pm

Seattle Business Journal is reporting that it is United looking to make the order and Boeing has requested suppliers see if they can "urgently" produce the parts by doubling production.

I would assume Boeing would make some upgrades, but who knows if it is going to happen fast.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... nited.html

mat66 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:51 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Pretty soon they'll get the idea that the 767 is already their MoM, and then they'll fall further behind, marketwise.

Boeing is quickly losing their drive! By 2025 they have a few awesome widebodies and basically inferiority under the 787 While Airbus figures out "Hey, this A322 thing actually might not be a bad idea!"

Then they say "Huh! The CS500 might actually be a great airplane!"

Is is bad that I'm rooting for Airbus at the moment?

Hello 767MAX Mk. I aka A330-900 (we wrote about it earlier today

). You are absolutely right, the 767 was done as soon as the A330 got decent MTOW upgrades. Even before it only sold to domestic US airlines, Japan and UK Boeing Airways. The 757/767 was the last program before Asia/Middle East became the dominant market. This is just plain silly. If the A330neo has just 210 orders, how many are there here? If it was April fools...

ytz · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:51 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
So... What's the chance that Boeing is seriously thinking of re-doing their priorities for a small aircraft (say, sized for the C-Series and the 737) vs a MOM?

You mean the NSA.

If anyone at Boeing has an iota of common sense, they would develop the MoM AND NSA side-by-side. Now that the C-Series is in the hands of Airbus, they may have to make a decision soon.

Nahhhhh. They would rather save capital for share buybacks and then whine about "subsidized" competitors to the government. If they don't do the MOM and NSA together, Airbus will hand their rear to them.

lightsaber · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:51 pm

Why are people talking about a MAX? First, Leeham is talking 50 to 60. I bet Boeing offered near term 767s to secure a large 787 or MoM deal. Would anyone else buy?

Leeham tends to be negative on Boeing. The article has more on why there might not be a business case. But if this is part of a launch order...

Boeing778X · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:53 pm

ytz wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
So... What's the chance that Boeing is seriously thinking of re-doing their priorities for a small aircraft (say, sized for the C-Series and the 737) vs a MOM?

You mean the NSA.

If anyone at Boeing has an iota of common sense, they would develop the MoM AND NSA side-by-side. Now that the C-Series is in the hands of Airbus, they may have to make a decision soon.

Nahhhhh. They would rather save capital for share buybacks and then whine about "subsidized" competitors to the government. If they don't do the MOM and NSA together, Airbus will hand their rear to them.

They're making it veeerry hard to root for the home team! :bored:

I know what you're saying is sarcasm, but oddly enough, that's EXACTLY what has and what will continue to happen if they don't wise up.

ikolkyo · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:53 pm

I mean if airlines bite on this it’s a smart move by Boeing, the 767 for them is extremely cheap to produce and they can easily ramp up production for it at a moments notice

Jayafe · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:55 pm

This is a band. With a perspective of 50-60 birds, forget about tweaks other than winglets and/or any easy pip + cabin paint...

airzona11 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:56 pm

I have always been curious why more airlines have not ordered some top off orders. There is most certainly a gap in that size segment.

I wonder what the price is that Boeing could sell them for? AA DL UA AC alone, that is a lot of mid range long haul flights that are going to have to be "over planed" to replace. Boeing is still selling them as freighters, has sold them for decades and has the tanker program, so the costs have to be low per unit that they could sell them for and still make some margin.

There was a time when JAL (ANA too?) among some small central asian carriers as well, took some late model 763s as 787 compensation.

nine4nine · Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:57 pm

ytz wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
So... What's the chance that Boeing is seriously thinking of re-doing their priorities for a small aircraft (say, sized for the C-Series and the 737) vs a MOM?

You mean the NSA.

If anyone at Boeing has an iota of common sense, they would develop the MoM AND NSA side-by-side. Now that the C-Series is in the hands of Airbus, they may have to make a decision soon.

Nahhhhh. They would rather save capital for share buybacks and then whine about "subsidized" competitors to the government. If they don't do the MOM and NSA together, Airbus will hand their rear to them.

And then at that point they will cry foul to DOT, DOJ, WTO and probably even the UN about Airbus subsidies.
It all boils down to make something new, something fresh, something cutting edge and innovative. They see a real 737 killer in the CSeries and went after it very aggressively. Maybe if corporate Boeing decided to invest in some real R&D instead of sitting in a back room counting profit dollars and pandering to Wall Street investors and let their engineers create some magic they may one day offer something amazing other than the sole 787. Everything else they offer is archaic and dull.

kmz · Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:03 pm

A B767MAX with new wings makes no sense, then they could just do a B787-3...

airzona11 · Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:04 pm

mat66 wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
Pretty soon they'll get the idea that the 767 is already their MoM, and then they'll fall further behind, marketwise.

Boeing is quickly losing their drive! By 2025 they have a few awesome widebodies and basically inferiority under the 787 While Airbus figures out "Hey, this A322 thing actually might not be a bad idea!"

Then they say "Huh! The CS500 might actually be a great airplane!"

Is is bad that I'm rooting for Airbus at the moment?

Hello 767MAX Mk. I aka A330-900 (we wrote about it earlier today ). You are absolutely right, the 767 was done as soon as the A330 got decent MTOW upgrades. Even before it only sold to domestic US airlines, Japan and UK Boeing Airways. The 757/767 was the last program before Asia/Middle East became the dominant market. This is just plain silly. If the A330neo has just 210 orders, how many are there here? If it was April fools...

But like the A330NEO, why does it need so many orders? The program is cruising in its 3rd decade, over a thousand built. It has made money. You just described the largest and some of the largest airlines in the world as clients. UA AA DL ANA JAL AC BA, none of them have direct replacements for their 767s... MoM sized planes is an addressable size, the A330 is too big. For the right price...

1989worstyear · Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:06 pm

nine4nine wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
Pretty soon they'll get the idea that the 767 is already their MoM, and then they'll fall further behind, marketwise.

Boeing is quickly losing their drive! By 2025 they have a few awesome widebodies and basically inferiority under the 787 While Airbus figures out "Hey, this A322 thing actually might not be a bad idea!"

Then they say "Huh! The CS500 might actually be a great airplane!"

Is is bad that I'm rooting for Airbus at the moment?

No. I love Boeings but I'm with you on this. Airbus is dancing circles around Boeing. While Boeing continues to play dress up with antique mid century models, Airbus is killing them with newer modern and innovative product. They WILL beat Boeing to the punch on a MOM aircraft unless Boeing decides to do a 707MAX.

You do realize the 767 and A320 were intrintroduced in the same decade, right? Same with the 777 and A330. The whole industry hasn't been innovating for 30 years - it's not just one oem.

Flyglobal · Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:06 pm

I expect that currently the MOM is in danger was the business case doesn't work out.
They may need about 20% higher realistic price to beat the 767 in a similar size.
In addition with the purchase of the C-Series, Airbus will be quick to counter any MOM by optimizing the A320 series for above 170 units..

Flyglobal

Revelation · Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:20 pm

JannEejit wrote:
So would a MAX'd up 767 have raked wing tips like the 764 or blended winglets like the 763 ? I'm all for a new take on this fine bird. It's another step towards a 'MOM'. Hey let's call it the 767-STEP-MOM !

Given how much some here love the idea of a MAX'd 767, maybe it should be called the 767-MILF! ;-)

ytz · Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:24 pm

Stitch wrote:
ytz wrote:
So they are going to insist on offering yesterday's airplane tomorrow. Why?

Because it appears that customers are insisting to buy scores of them?

Scores? Really?

Stitch · Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:30 pm

ytz wrote:
Stitch wrote:
ytz wrote:
So they are going to insist on offering yesterday's airplane tomorrow. Why?

Because it appears that customers are insisting to buy scores of them?

Scores? Really?

Leeham says upward of 50-60 and Puget Sound Business Journal says possibly even more.

fcogafa · Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:32 pm

ytz wrote:
[Scores? Really?

A score is 20, they are talking about 60 orders so that is three scores

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