LockheedBBD wrote:

Looks like the Canadian government might want to show Airbus some gratitude for saving Canadian jobs by purchasing some Eurofighter Typhoons (Airbus joint venture).

I was thinking is, but I'll put my money on A330MRTT first (and sooner than late) and Bombardier gets the new FWSAR service and support contracts.

Even though Dassault is a competitor, I am sure besides Bombardier/Airbus, there was a significant amount of Canada/France, and that Canada may pay for the FAL in Mirabel for Rafales which then turns into CSeries production when they are finished.

I really do think that this will be a positive experience in the long run.

Alabama plant was sized to handle all the a330 production I believe. They was when the tanker contract was still in question.

sadiqutp wrote:

As expected, Boeing didn't take it well

“This looks like a questionable deal between two heavily state-subsidised competitors to skirt the recent findings of the U.S. government,”

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bomba ... KKBN1CM02H

The hilarious part is that they can do exactly zero about it. Can't stop Airbus from building airplanes inside the US.

LoftleidirDC8 wrote:

I'm skeptical. Boeing promised a bright future for the 717 and MD-11F......

And they were sub-par products when Boeing bought them. Airbus just purchased a product line that forced Boeing to hand out a 70% discount on 737NGs.

Where is The Price is Right fail horn for Boeing? I hope the Canadian military goes through with not buying the F-18. Boeing won't help the US3 against the ME3 and pushed the C-series right into Airbus' arms. This is comedic gold.

pipeafcr wrote:

Found the first render as a consequence of this partnership!

Isn't Avianca an Embraer operator?

I hope to see some orders for the CS100/300 in the near future now that Airbus is backing the program. More from the LH group that basically has an all Airbus fleet? B6?

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I now see the CS500 being developed and the A319neo being effectively dead. This is a coup for Airbus...as they can market the CSeries.

The A319NEO and -7 MAX were already effectively dead. This just puts enough life into the CS300 to make it thrive.

I'm alternating opinions on the CS500 (will it happen or not). The 50% and a smidge makes it an interesting business decision on Airbus' part. For the CS500 would really dig into A320NEO sales (most flights do not need the range and thus the weight savings would help economics). Oh... what a decision. Probably no CS500 until after the options hit... (Call or put).


Lightsaber

Jon Ostrower tweeted:

Jon Ostrower‏ Verified account @jonostrower 1h1 hour ago

The fine print on the deal is that by 2023 Airbus will buy out the remaining Bombardier and Quebec C Series shares.

That suggests some scenarios:

1) Airbus goes all-in and the program is making good profits in 2023 which means its market value is high and Airbus has to spend a lot of money to buy out BBD and the Canadian govts.

2) Airbus gives it moderate support with the goal of getting to break even so Airbus can get the intellectual property of the program at minimal cost in 2023, which is still 2 years before Boeing can do a MOM.

3) Airbus gives it the bare minimum support and leaves it all up to BBD and Canada to keep pumping in more money. It sinks or swims on its own. If it sinks, it's at least been a threat for Boeing to deal with. If it swims, it's "found money" for Airbus.

4) Others?

Oh, and congrats to Delta! The relationship between Delta and Boeing just got more interesting.

ytz wrote:

Cruiser wrote:

ytz wrote:

Is Alabama really that much cheaper to build planes? I mean these are highly skilled people in either Toronto or Alabama.

Also, airlines now no longer have to worry if the company that built their brand new shiny plane will even be around in a few years to support them. At least Airbus brings this stability.

I can't imagine a right-to-work state being more expensive than Quebec of all places. I don't think it's as relevant as just giving the CSeries a way to bypass American tariffs. It's a nice bonus to be sure.

Also, Bombardier's ramp was pretty slow. Because they never planned on getting a huge share of the market. Now that Airbus is in the mix, and they have some more sure customers in the bag, they'll need more production anyway. What better way than to just build it in the US. I expect we'll hear a large adjustment of Delta's order soon. Along with B6 and a few others jumping onboard over the course of the next year.

I would also factor in things like wages and payroll taxes as well. The Conseil du patronat du Québec notes employers in Quebec have to pay the following taxes on payroll:

https://www.cpq.qc.ca/wp-content/upload ... 509_en.pdf

1. Occupational health and safety premiums at an average rate of $2.10 per $100 of insurable payroll;
2. Régime des rentes du Québec (RRQ), paid in equal parts by the employer and employee (employers’ rate is 4.95%);
3. Employment insurance premiums (employers’ rate is 1.93%);
4. Régime québécois d’assurance parentale (rate of 0.677%), both of which are paid by the employer (7/12) and employee (5/12);
5. Contributions to the health services fund (rate of 2.7% to 4.26% depending on total payroll);
6. 1% training;
7. And funding for the Commission des normes du travail (rate of 0.08%)

The council also notes that Quebec has one of the highest payroll taxes in all of Canada... and generally, payroll taxes in Canada are much higher than in the US.

777Mech wrote:

Where is The Price is Right fail horn for Boeing? I hope the Canadian military goes through with not buying the F-18. Boeing won't help the US3 against the ME3 and pushed the C-series right into Airbus' arms. This is comedic gold.

I agree the Super Hornet was a stupid idea for Canada to begin with. They were going to buy a plane that was going to serve 40 years and be and orphan platform for about 20 of those. The reason the original Hornet buy worked was because Canada synchronized it purchase to a new fighter entering service with US navy and others. So there was support of airframe through out it life in Canadian service.

Clearly F35 is the only realistic choice Canada can make.

My impression is that POTUS's interest is in dramatically-growing American manufacturing jobs. That's his base.

He doesn't care as much whether American companies make profits, although profits are a good thing because profitable companies pay taxe$ and participate in a virtuous cycle of job growth, and lift the stock market, in which most American's retirement funds (whether through their own individual investment or more likely through the investment of a union pension fund) are invested.

Boeing's reason for wanting to kill the C-Series was the possible competition for the 737 if the -500 came into being, and just wanting to kill a potential competitor generally, I believe.

If manufacturing jobs are being created in the US, particularly in a state like Alabama that is generally Trump-leaning, that's gonna be more interesting to this administration than is the possibility of more profits for Boeing.

ytz wrote:

pipeafcr wrote:

Found the first render as a consequence of this partnership!

Isn't Avianca an Embraer operator?

Only in Central America. AV will eventually want to replace their A318 and the CS was a candidate last time I heard something about it. Now the deal being backed by Airbus will surely push for a CS order from AV in South America.

kabq737 wrote:

If the Cseries is able to take advantage of the massive Airbus support structure and product familiarity around the world it could be very very good. I love Boeing’s aircraft however, I think they are run fairly poorly right now and I think this wake up call needed to be made.

Boeing run poorly right now?? What are you smoking?? Check out their stock price, if only all public companies were so poorly run. As one analyst said; "Boing is a cash flow machine". I wish I had bought far more Boeing stock than I did last year. BA is the best performing stock in the Dow for the past year. I guess you are smarter than wall street.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/st ... tory_quote

I have not stepped foot in the tariff thread (wanted to keep my sanity and really had nothing to add anyhow) but am thrilled to see the CSeries have a more solid future. I'm just not clear that it's a huge blow to Boeing or a huge win for Airbus. More than anything, it legitimizes the CSeries, which is a win for the program. We'll see, though.

ACCS300 wrote:

I'll bet AC is wishing they'd never gone with the MAX now. I see both major Canadian carriers hugely supporting this partnership especially in the wake of Boeing's tanking image here.

I wonder if perhaps you might be overstating the emotion of this mashup a bit?

golfradio wrote:

Karma. As Sun Tzu said, "Never back an enemy into a corner". Now Boeing's nightmare is just beginning.

Airbus buys itself breathing room by allowing C-Series to carry on with the 100-150 and potentially an A320 replacement in the form of a CS-500. While Airbus itself focuses on a response to a potential Boeing MoM initiative.

A great win for Airbus and a good out for BBD.

I see no reason that Airbus needs to replace the A320neo, and I see no reason that Airbus would have struggled in any way deciding between investing in a MoM response and perhaps getting into the 100-150 seat category. In other words, karma aside, I don't see the big gain for Airbus in doing this deal for those specific reasons given.

Clipper101 wrote:

I remember Bombardier approached Airbus previously for a stake in the C-Series, but negotiations broke down & no deal went through. Now the second time around things went well, I am wondering what is the difference in approach between the first time & this one !

Price and desperation.

WaywardMemphian wrote:

The content was already said to be 55% American.

Poor Boeing, a great plane will see it's full potential.

I can see Spirit being more interested in it now. Maybe Allegiant now that it has actually bought new planes recently from AB, Frontier and that detached order is still floating in limbo.

I've long thought the CS300 would be a great plane for Allegiant, and the CS500 would as well if ever built. However, I'm guessing that the price may be going up a bit now given Airbus' involvement. Airbus isn't trying to charge less and they sure aren't trying to create a lower cost frame to compete with the A320.

leghorn wrote:

At this stage I think Boeing really need fuel to drop to 10 dollars a barrel. They can produce the 737 cheaply but not cheap enough to make it worth buying if it burns too much expensive fuel. That might get them through until they have a technologically competitive plane.

Because their fuel burn is so horrible right now?

Boeing778X wrote:

And THAT is a huge kick in the head for Boeing! Terrific news for the C-Series!

You know what would be a mind blowing lineup?

CS100
CS300
CS500
A321neo
A321LR
A322

Unstoppable! Boeing has to do an NSA now!

I think this:

CS100
CS300
A320neo
A321neo
A322neo

Does the job nicely. I've long thought that the CS100/CS300/A320neo/A321neo would be a killer lineup for an airline. And frankly, an E175/E190/MAX 8/MAX 10 wouldn't be all that bad either. You can throw in the E195 and MAX 9 but they are somewhat superfluous in the big picture.

Revelation wrote:

Jon Ostrower tweeted:

Jon Ostrower‏ Verified account @jonostrower 1h1 hour ago

The fine print on the deal is that by 2023 Airbus will buy out the remaining Bombardier and Quebec C Series shares.

That suggests some scenarios:

1) Airbus goes all-in and the program is making good profits in 2023 which means its market value is high and Airbus has to spend a lot of money to buy out BBD and the Canadian govts.

2) Airbus gives it moderate support with the goal of getting to break even so Airbus can get the intellectual property of the program at minimal cost in 2023, which is still 2 years before Boeing can do a MOM.

3) Airbus gives it the bare minimum support and leaves it all up to BBD and Canada to keep pumping in more money. It sinks or swims on its own. If it sinks, it's at least been a threat for Boeing to deal with. If it swims, it's "found money" for Airbus.

4) Others?

4) Airbus doesn't want the inevitable vengeful (Boeing/MD payback) shake down by US anti trust agencies that taking over BBD would expose it to right now.

5) This is a way of keeping BBD away from Chinese.

lightsaber wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I now see the CS500 being developed and the A319neo being effectively dead. This is a coup for Airbus...as they can market the CSeries.

The A319NEO and -7 MAX were already effectively dead. This just puts enough life into the CS300 to make it thrive.

I'm alternating opinions on the CS500 (will it happen or not). The 50% and a smidge makes it an interesting business decision on Airbus' part. For the CS500 would really dig into A320NEO sales (most flights do not need the range and thus the weight savings would help economics). Oh... what a decision. Probably no CS500 until after the options hit... (Call or put).


Lightsaber

Could be the "no cash" is because they will guarantee to put in cash and develop the CS500? That would be their end of the overall investment, make sense? They add a model for a fraction of a new one and free resources for something else.

wjcandee wrote:

If manufacturing jobs are being created in the US, particularly in a state like Alabama that is generally Trump-leaning, that's gonna be more interesting to this administration than is the possibility of more profits for Boeing.

That's a big IF.

Again, the presser says:

CSALP’s headquarters and primary assembly line and related functions will remain in Québec, with the support of Airbus’ global reach and scale. Airbus’ global industrial footprint will expand with the Final Assembly Line in Canada and additional C Series production at Airbus’ manufacturing site in Alabama, U.S.

In reading the Twittersphere, Canadians are already quite unhappy (in their usual polite way) that their government's money has been used to hand the Cseries program to foreign owners.

Quebec can do some bad things to the program if Airbus moves the jobs to the US.

Personally, I don't see it becoming a US jobs program, but I'm sure t-rump will try to make it look that way.

ytz wrote:

LoftleidirDC8 wrote:

I'm skeptical. Boeing promised a bright future for the 717 and MD-11F......

And they were sub-par products when Boeing bought them. Airbus just purchased a product line that forced Boeing to hand out a 70% discount on 737NGs.

Just like the CSeries which has floundered in oblivion for years. If it was profitable it would have sold on its own. Airbus has the ability to market planes but can it? The name on the side doesn't take away from the fact that they had to be given away to Delta. Does anyone think B6 is going to jump on the CSeries train and pay more than a major competitor?!?!

Overall, BBD is dead. Airbus has a program that needs to be turned around and has zero commonality with the rest of its product line ala the 717. Airbus is in a take it or leave it position. What we don't know is what effect this has on Boeing, the DOC findings and Embraer. What IF Boeing and Embraer join forces with the new E2 program and produce it at the Embraer facility in Florida?

In addition, how many US carriers are going to want and step into a quagmire involving possible 300% tariffs and US Gov that has yet to weigh in with its take on this business deal? Everyone but the guys who actually put forward the 300% tariff have spoken. What if they say this is a shady deal with zero money changings hands in attempt to subvert US law?

I'll bet Delta knew this was coming and I'm sure the tarriff case is going to be dropped as this deal changes everything. With stability to the program now we can possibly see more US carriers placeng orders for the jet. JetBlue possibly and maybe Spirit. I'm going to go out on a limb and also add in Frontier. I say this because Frontier serves some cities and has served some previous secondary cities where their A320 is too large of an aircraft and where their A319 is not cost effective to operate.

I think this is horrible news. The CS500 is dead and the C-series is basically irrelevant IMO. It is another 717 situation. We just witnessed the death of a mainline narrowbody OEM. Awful news.

jalarner wrote:

Could be the "no cash" is because they will guarantee to put in cash and develop the CS500? That would be their end of the overall investment, make sense? They add a model for a fraction of a new one and free resources for something else.

No, the agreement says nothing along these lines, instead it says BBD will need to keep dumping money into the program:

It also contemplates that Bombardier will continue with its current funding plan of CSALP and will fund, if required, the cash shortfalls of CSALP during the first year following the closing up to a maximum amount of US$350 million, and during the second and third years following the closing up to a maximum aggregate amount of US$350 million over both years

I read this as up to $350M in Y1 and up to $350M during Y2-Y3, but I could be reading this wrong.

Well, Boeing brought his on itself. Boeing only has itself to blame for this disaster. Instead of killing the C-Series, they've more or less guaranteed it's survival. Instead of eliminating a new rival, they've strengthened an existing one who will now have an even stronger foothold in the US market. And, because these Bombardier/Airbus planes will be made in the USA, the duties will apparently not apply, at least to future orders. Toss in Canadian governmental displeasure over this affair and the strong probability that the Super Hornet deal for the RCAF is now a nonstarter and Boeing has created a major headache for itself. And, who knows? UK anger over the potential loss of Northern Irish jobs may also factor into some future (non) orders and contracts not going Boeing's way.

I wonder how much liquor is being consumed at Boeing HQ this fine evening?

Yes!!! Karma hit Boeing right in the balls! I couldn't believe how calm and collected Delta was. I mean, I was furious. Delta had to have known this deal was in the works.

I heard the deal had been in the works for about 2 years now. I think it's a genius move by Airbus. I also suspect the C Series just got a huge shot in the arm, and I am certain the program will be successful. They also said they are keeping production in Canada as well, and there will be little to no job losses.

Congrats Bombardier and Airbus!!! It's refreshing to see Boeing finally get a taste of its own medicine.

Flighty wrote:

I think this is horrible news. The CS500 is dead and the C-series is basically irrelevant IMO. It is another 717 situation. We just witnessed the death of a mainline narrowbody OEM. Awful news.

If the CSeries wasn't a clean sheet, state-of-the-art aircraft family, I might agree. The 717-200 was an inconvenient airframe that offered little to Boeing. The CSeries at least complements the A32X product line for Airbus.

Revelation wrote:

wjcandee wrote:

If manufacturing jobs are being created in the US, particularly in a state like Alabama that is generally Trump-leaning, that's gonna be more interesting to this administration than is the possibility of more profits for Boeing.

That's a big IF.

Again, the presser says:

CSALP’s headquarters and primary assembly line and related functions will remain in Québec, with the support of Airbus’ global reach and scale. Airbus’ global industrial footprint will expand with the Final Assembly Line in Canada and additional C Series production at Airbus’ manufacturing site in Alabama, U.S.

In reading the Twittersphere, Canadians are already quite unhappy (in their usual polite way) that their government's money has been used to hand the Cseries program to foreign owners.

Quebec can do some bad things to the program if Airbus moves the jobs to the US.

Personally, I don't see it becoming a US jobs program, but I'm sure t-rump will try to make it look that way.

The entire purpose is to skirt the US tariffs on cseries by basing production in the US. That means to maintain two production line they will have to duplicate the Canadian line equipment in US. Or they put the Canadian equipment in a shipping create and send it to US. The most cost effective choice is to end the Canadian production line. Will it be chosen who knows but I wouldn't bet on airbus doing anything other then the most cost effective choice. They have much experience with local governments demanding that work stays put. If they had listened to those local governments then they wouldn't be taking a share in cseries at all. So I don't think they will give Canadian demand much thought.

CX747 wrote:

ytz wrote:

LoftleidirDC8 wrote:

I'm skeptical. Boeing promised a bright future for the 717 and MD-11F......

And they were sub-par products when Boeing bought them. Airbus just purchased a product line that forced Boeing to hand out a 70% discount on 737NGs.

Just like the CSeries which has floundered in oblivion for years. If it was profitable it would have sold on its own. Airbus has the ability to market planes but can it? The name on the side doesn't take away from the fact that they had to be given away to Delta. Does anyone think B6 is going to jump on the CSeries train and pay more than a major competitor?!?!

Overall, BBD is dead. Airbus has a program that needs to be turned around and has zero commonality with the rest of its product line ala the 717. Airbus is in a take it or leave it position. What we don't know is what effect this has on Boeing, the DOC findings and Embraer. What IF Boeing and Embraer join forces with the new E2 program and produce it at the Embraer facility in Florida?

In addition, how many US carriers are going to want and step into a quagmire involving possible 300% tariffs and US Gov that has yet to weigh in with its take on this business deal? Everyone but the guys who actually put forward the 300% tariff have spoken. What if they say this is a shady deal with zero money changings hands in attempt to subvert US law?

Does Embraer need to sell itself to Boeing? They seem to be doing very well for themselves.

If you take a step back, this deal makes on chuckle.

Airbus was created to keep Europe in the aviation game. Their newest factory employees Americans.

BBD and the CSeries was propped up to support Canadian aerospace. The CSeries was just given away and more Americans got jobs!

Something like this was predictable. And the arrogance of Boeing only made it more likely. Airbus got it for nothing down!! And this will ensure a big enough war chest to address any and all MOM competitors. Way to go, Boeing.

Let's see, they screwed Seattle, then the state, then their unions. And now themselves.

Turnhouse1 wrote:

So does the Mobile Final Assembly Line mean the tariffs are history?

You can't put a tariff on a product that was made in the U.S. so it seems like it.

Aptivaboy wrote:

Well, Boeing brought his on itself. Boeing only has itself to blame for this disaster. Instead of killing the C-Series, they've more or less guaranteed it's survival. Instead of eliminating a new rival, they've strengthened an existing one who will now have an even stronger foothold in the US market. And, because these Bombardier/Airbus planes will be made in the USA, the duties will apparently not apply, at least to future orders. Toss in Canadian governmental displeasure over this affair and the strong probability that the Super Hornet deal for the RCAF is now a nonstarter and Boeing has created a major headache for itself. And, who knows? UK anger over the potential loss of Northern Irish jobs may also factor into some future (non) orders and contracts not going Boeing's way.

I wonder how much liquor is being consumed at Boeing HQ this fine evening?

The only liquor Boeing Execs are drinking is surely very expensive, since they have made so much money on their stock options this year they probably have no idea how to spend it all.

CX747 wrote:

Just like the CSeries which has floundered in oblivion for years. If it was profitable it would have sold on its own. Airbus has the ability to market planes but can it? The name on the side doesn't take away from the fact that they had to be given away to Delta. Does anyone think B6 is going to jump on the CSeries train and pay more than a major competitor?!?!

Overall, BBD is dead. Airbus has a program that needs to be turned around and has zero commonality with the rest of its product line ala the 717. Airbus is in a take it or leave it position. What we don't know is what effect this has on Boeing, the DOC findings and Embraer. What IF Boeing and Embraer join forces with the new E2 program and produce it at the Embraer facility in Florida?

In addition, how many US carriers are going to want and step into a quagmire involving possible 300% tariffs and US Gov that has yet to weigh in with its take on this business deal? Everyone but the guys who actually put forward the 300% tariff have spoken. What if they say this is a shady deal with zero money changings hands in attempt to subvert US law?

In those years in oblivion, CS wasn't even flying, never mind certified and in serial production and in revenue airline service with blue chip customers like LH Group (now) and DL (near future). Add to that Airbus's marketing, support network, supply chain, manufacturing expertise, etc and it really is a different time for the CS.

On the other hand, I am more skeptical about the CS future than many here. I'm not as sure as others that the 100-150 seat market is a great one to be in. I'm not as sure as others that the resources will be made available to make a CS500. I'm not as sure as others that Airbus will ever prefer to sell a CS above an A3xxx.

I can easily see the CS become a solid profitable program selling a lot of units into the 100-150 seat market, but nothing more.

As a Canadian I would have preferred to see the C-Series program flourish on it's own. Canadian ingenuity and engineering made this fine aircraft possible, therefore I am hopeful the agreement with Airbus will help the program to move ahead and become very successful.

It is time to move aside nationalistic views. Our world is a very small place. Everything and everyone is interconnected. We all depend on one another. Nations taking protectionist and isolationist moves will surely suffer in the future.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/16/news/co ... index.html

"Will Airbus and Bombardier's partnership push Boeing closer to Brazil?"

In 2016, Embraer and Boeing tested a slate of new advanced technologies on an Embraer test aircraft. The arrangement was a rare co-mingling of intellectual property that manufacturers normally keep from the prying eyes of potential competitors.


Embraer's former Chief Executive Frederico Curado told the Wall Street Journal that if the pair would team up, it would have to be for a distinct project like a new airliner.
Boeing is actively studying whether it will build a new, small twin-aisle jetliner for medium distance flights, but is seeking ways to significantly reduce the jet's development costs.
"If we do engage in a partnership in the future, we are very much aware of our size our abilities, but it would have to be a true partnership, somebody would have to trust us in all aspects our ability to serve a customer," said Curado.

II can't say that I'm surprised by this announcement. BBD had been in talks with Airbus before but hit a snag and talks broke off. Like someone else stated I am somewhat disappointed that BBD could not stay independent but I get it completely. I'm sure that there will be heads rolling and fist pounding at the Boeing Boardroom in the next days. The Complaint by Boeing should never been giving the light of day in the first place. The 737-7Max program was all but dead in the first place except for BBJ use. But knowing Boeing's mind set I bet they will try something.
I will be cool to see the FAL in Mobile, AL. This is a win for DL and BBD as well as Airbus. I can't wait to see C-100/300 in full DL colors.

Revelation wrote:

CX747 wrote:

Just like the CSeries which has floundered in oblivion for years. If it was profitable it would have sold on its own. Airbus has the ability to market planes but can it? The name on the side doesn't take away from the fact that they had to be given away to Delta. Does anyone think B6 is going to jump on the CSeries train and pay more than a major competitor?!?!

Overall, BBD is dead. Airbus has a program that needs to be turned around and has zero commonality with the rest of its product line ala the 717. Airbus is in a take it or leave it position. What we don't know is what effect this has on Boeing, the DOC findings and Embraer. What IF Boeing and Embraer join forces with the new E2 program and produce it at the Embraer facility in Florida?

In addition, how many US carriers are going to want and step into a quagmire involving possible 300% tariffs and US Gov that has yet to weigh in with its take on this business deal? Everyone but the guys who actually put forward the 300% tariff have spoken. What if they say this is a shady deal with zero money changings hands in attempt to subvert US law?

In those years in oblivion, CS wasn't even flying, never mind certified and in serial production and in revenue airline service with blue chip customers like LH Group (now) and DL (near future). Add to that Airbus's marketing, support network, supply chain, manufacturing expertise, etc and it really is a different time for the CS.

On the other hand, I am more skeptical about the CS future than many here. I'm not as sure as others that the 100-150 seat market is a great one to be in. I'm not as sure as others that the resources will be made available to make a CS500. I'm not as sure as others that Airbus will ever prefer to sell a CS above an A3xxx.

I can easily see the CS become a solid profitable program selling a lot of units into the 100-150 seat market, but nothing more.

I think that Airbus got its foot in the door of the 100-150 seat market. As you stated, they aren't going to sell a CSeries before and A32X. In addition, I'm not sure where all of these magical orders for the CSeries appear from. If they were their, BBD would have completed them in similar fashion to the Delta deal.

This is a great move by Airbus imo. All the design work(cost) has been done for a 3K ranged sub 150 pax aircraft to fill their lineup.

Siddar wrote:

Boy you Canadians sure showed us in the US. You sold the company to Europeans who will make C Series in the US. Real Trudeau definition of winning you got there. I think ill stick to Trumps definition. I want to thank Quebec government for subsidizing Alabama job and Taxs.

It was a simple choice even to the simple minded, bankruptcy or sell out to Airbus.

If someone could please clarify, does this mean the C Series WILL be built in Alabama or COULD be built in Alabama?

Northwest1988 wrote:

If someone could please clarify, does this mean the C Series WILL be built in Alabama or COULD be built in Alabama?

Based upon the presser and news reports, a parallel production line is going to be set up by Airbus in Alabama.

LockheedBBD wrote:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/16/news/companies/boeing-embraer-collaboration/index.html

"Will Airbus and Bombardier's partnership push Boeing closer to Brazil?"

In 2016, Embraer and Boeing tested a slate of new advanced technologies on an Embraer test aircraft. The arrangement was a rare co-mingling of intellectual property that manufacturers normally keep from the prying eyes of potential competitors.


Embraer's former Chief Executive Frederico Curado told the Wall Street Journal that if the pair would team up, it would have to be for a distinct project like a new airliner.
Boeing is actively studying whether it will build a new, small twin-aisle jetliner for medium distance flights, but is seeking ways to significantly reduce the jet's development costs.
"If we do engage in a partnership in the future, we are very much aware of our size our abilities, but it would have to be a true partnership, somebody would have to trust us in all aspects our ability to serve a customer," said Curado.

Moves and counter moves. Is a Boeing/Embraer team up stronger than Airbus/BBD? What if Boeing supported the new E series?!?!

Siddar wrote:

The entire purpose is to skirt the US tariffs on cseries by basing production in the US. That means to maintain two production line they will have to duplicate the Canadian line equipment in US. Or they put the Canadian equipment in a shipping create and send it to US. The most cost effective choice is to end the Canadian production line. Will it be chosen who knows but I wouldn't bet on airbus doing anything other then the most cost effective choice. They have much experience with local governments demanding that work stays put. If they had listened to those local governments then they wouldn't be taking a share in cseries at all. So I don't think they will give Canadian demand much thought.

It's already announced that there will be two FALS and the primary FAL will be in Quebec and the AL production facility will be used for US customers. Re-read the announcement.

Boeing's response:

"This looks like a questionable deal between two heavily state-subsidized competitors to skirt the recent findings of the U.S. government. Our position remains that everyone should play by the same rules for free and fair trade to work," a Boeing spokesman said in a statement.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/16/news/co ... index.html

tofur wrote:

As a Canadian I would have preferred to see the C-Series program flourish on it's own. Canadian ingenuity and engineering made this fine aircraft possible, therefore I am hopeful the agreement with Airbus will help the program to move ahead and become very successful.

It is time to move aside nationalistic views. Our world is a very small place. Everything and everyone is interconnected. We all depend on one another. Nations taking protectionist and isolationist moves will surely suffer in the future.

Yep, everything is interconnected, like those Canadian fuselages interconnected to Irish wings and American engines whose fate is now controlled by an European corporation.

"At the end of the day, this is going to be an Airbus program," said Rainer Ohler, vice president of communications for Airbus Group in an interview. "It's going to be a threesome, we take the majority now and over time we take 100% of the program," Ohler said.

BBD's short dabbling in the commercial aerospace industry is slowly coming to a close, like many companies before it.

Source: http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/16/news/co ... index.html

So Boeing eliminated a competitor, and likely the greater threat altogether (cs500), while trump gets a win by bringing production to Alabama. Never has a trade dispute ended so quickly to the advantage of the complainant. The Canadian and Euro taxpayers subsidize a delta purchase, even more.

I don’t understand all of the vitriol over the complaint here or elsewhere, especially given bombardiers bird flipping responses to the department of commerce, but none of that really matters. As far as I can tell this doesn’t impact the 737 program other than eliminating the cs500, and marginally impacts iam by putting some production assets in Alabama. I’m glad for the related workers but can’t help but wonder how expanding assembly sites, pledging profit dollars to airbus, and castrating the product line growth potential leads to some sort of Boeing loss, or great profits.

CX747 wrote:

ytz wrote:

LoftleidirDC8 wrote:

I'm skeptical. Boeing promised a bright future for the 717 and MD-11F......

And they were sub-par products when Boeing bought them. Airbus just purchased a product line that forced Boeing to hand out a 70% discount on 737NGs.

Just like the CSeries which has floundered in oblivion for years. If it was profitable it would have sold on its own. Airbus has the ability to market planes but can it? The name on the side doesn't take away from the fact that they had to be given away to Delta. Does anyone think B6 is going to jump on the CSeries train and pay more than a major competitor?!?!

What's so hard to believe about the CSeries being a viable business plan? As it seems to have played out thus far, the only non-viable part of the plan was Bombardier's inability to compete with the fire-sale prices that A and B were capable of offering. Now, if Boeing wants to compete at fire-sale prices, it has to do it with Airbus. Boeing knew it could win against BBD. What are the odds of it winning a price war with Airbus?

CX747 wrote:

Overall, BBD is dead. Airbus has a program that needs to be turned around and has zero commonality with the rest of its product line ala the 717. Airbus is in a take it or leave it position. What we don't know is what effect this has on Boeing, the DOC findings and Embraer. What IF Boeing and Embraer join forces with the new E2 program and produce it at the Embraer facility in Florida?

Embraer is not in a hurtin' position like BBD. Boeing would never be able to get a deal like this one.

As to Airbus "turning around" the CSeries program, I think that would be very easy for them. After all, they just effectively eliminated one of the programs biggest competitors: Airbus! Quite frankly, I think the CSeries is a much better complement to the A320NEO family then it would be to the 737MAX. So, I can see Airbus making it work.

CX747 wrote:

In addition, how many US carriers are going to want and step into a quagmire involving possible 300% tariffs and US Gov that has yet to weigh in with its take on this business deal? Everyone but the guys who actually put forward the 300% tariff have spoken. What if they say this is a shady deal with zero money changings hands in attempt to subvert US law?

I'm sure that there are discussions to this end occurring right now. But, the way this deal looks, I would hardly call it favourable to Bombardier. There's real stakes involved. It's not just a name on the safety card in the seat pocket. As to the tariff… if Airbus wants to set up manufacturing inside the USA, who's going to stop them?

Still plenty of twists and turns ahead, from government reviews to potential competing bids involving cash....

MSPNWA wrote:

So much for wanting a third competitor to the A/B duopoly. This thread hilariously exposes that the real point of rooting for Bombardier wasn't for the existence of another manufacturer.

This is sad news for the CSeries and for manufacturer variety in general. It's a shame to see Bombardier effectively end as a manufacturer. Now the CS500 is likely a non-starter, and having Airbus on board still doesn't change the fact that the business case for the CS100 and CS300 is extremely weak. In fact this might makes CSeries sales even weaker, as Airbus likely won't be willing to put up with loss-making aircraft that somewhat competes against itself. In the end, I think this is Airbus helping kill off BBD and the CSeries. It just might take more time now.

Outside of the A319NEO CJ, Airbus knows the 319NEO is the equivalent to the A318.

This gives Airbus a product for a market segment they weren't competitive in. The CSeries will now gain access to Chi a big time. This will open the floodgates for orders in the next five years. Queue up AA and UA now that DL's will definitely get delivered.