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buzzard302
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 15, 2018 10:26 pm

salttee wrote:
buzzard302 wrote:
Interesting that lots of large news agencies are willing to put the article out saying the pilot did it. With no other evidence to support otherwise, I have always agreed with the theory. But at the end of the day, there still is no factual evidence to prove the pilot's ill will.

If the pilot did it, how did he eliminate the co-pilot from intervening? Must have waited until co-pilot left the cockpit for a break.
There is a lot of evidence showing that Zaharie did it. You must have avoided seeing it.


No, I read it all over the years. I agree there are plenty of possible motives as to why Zaharie would have done it. But there is no clear cut piece of evidence left behind by Zaharie that proves he set out to purposely commit suicide and make a 777 disappear. By all logic, he is behind it yes. But nothing that leaves exact closure. Do you know of something specific that provides finalization on the pilot did it theory?

I am an engineer, I have always kept an open mind that a technical issue could have been at hand. But I fail to read any evidence that a technical malfunction/occurrence led to the disappearance.
 
asdf
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 15, 2018 11:19 pm

i guess i will not bring us further if we resume the last few hundred pages of discussion

theres is no evidence, no hard facts

there are theories

some are pretty straith forward theories and those often show the true
but there are cases where the reality proofs a pretty logical, straight forward theorie wrong

the theorie that a pilot was involved is the most straight forward and logic theorie
but no one really can safely say that it is impossible that it was a freaky weired chain of technical cases

if it is a fact that it was a pilot involved ... there are pointing more informations on Z. than on his co-pilot
but his co- pilot has a lot of privat cases too, as we could learn on the first hundred thread pages, he had the same opportunaty, it could has been him as well

btw:
completely independed from the whole „ how does it happend“ case ... i dont thrust the inmarsat data at all
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 15, 2018 11:55 pm

There are a lot of hard facts. You have to try hard to dismiss them. And I have to point out that if you've looked at the Inmarsat data and you don't trust at least the BTO data, then you must not be capable of middle school math. There is nothing complicated about using the time it takes for EMF pulse travel to calculate distance.

Also, with the first officer Fariq being so normal and squeaky clean and Zaharie being such an obvious angry nutcase (re: his facebook posts) I can't see how anybody could be confused about which one of them did it. And then there's the fact that Zaharie handled the sign off from Malaysian ATC. He was on the deck when things went sour.
 
trnswrld
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 12:05 am

buzzard302 wrote:
salttee wrote:
buzzard302 wrote:
Interesting that lots of large news agencies are willing to put the article out saying the pilot did it. With no other evidence to support otherwise, I have always agreed with the theory. But at the end of the day, there still is no factual evidence to prove the pilot's ill will.

If the pilot did it, how did he eliminate the co-pilot from intervening? Must have waited until co-pilot left the cockpit for a break.
There is a lot of evidence showing that Zaharie did it. You must have avoided seeing it.


No, I read it all over the years. I agree there are plenty of possible motives as to why Zaharie would have done it. But there is no clear cut piece of evidence left behind by Zaharie that proves he set out to purposely commit suicide and make a 777 disappear. By all logic, he is behind it yes. But nothing that leaves exact closure. Do you know of something specific that provides finalization on the pilot did it theory?

I am an engineer, I have always kept an open mind that a technical issue could have been at hand. But I fail to read any evidence that a technical malfunction/occurrence led to the disappearance.


If what they said about them finding a similar flight path flown on his flight simulator then that right there says it all...IMO. However, if he was smart enough to make a 777 disappear almost without a trace, then surely he would have thought that his computer and flight simulator were going to be looked at. Or maybe he didn’t necessarily care whether he was to eventually be blamed for this.
 
mywaterbroke
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 2:25 am

Given many of you studied the data in-depth and looked into all the factors relating to the disappearance of MH370 in great detail, I do have a legit question: what’s the merit to the theory that the plane may have turned again over the Indian Ocean, flew over the Maldives and then turned again towards/in the vicinity of Diego Garcia? I am neither suggesting anything specific nor arguing a conspiracy theory, but there were witnesses that reported seeing the plane in the southern Maldives (instantly discredited by their own country) and this may be in line with some of the wreckage being found all the way from the coasts of Tanzania down to Madagascar, Mauritius, Reunion and South Africa. AFAIK this theory was dismissed early on and never revisited. Diego Garcia may or may not have been targeted or an intended destination but surely they must have seen or know something? After all, the pilot’s flight simulator did feature training for a landing path on a small secluded island
 
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notaxonrotax
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 3:16 am

I for one am happy that the search continued. Very valuable data has been gathered for an area of our planet that commercially would not have been researched this extensively.
Think about the accurate mapping, for instance for B.A charts.

Obviously, I hope parts of the plane will be found.
I doubt very much the plane broke in 10 million small little pieces upon impact, just looking at other water crash impact sites.
Larger parts of the remnants can and should be found!

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Planeflyer
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 4:29 am

Well if it can be shown that the plane tipped its wings over the captain’s home down can we all agree that w/o doubt one or both pilots or other crew members were involved?
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 5:51 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Well if it can be shown that the plane tipped its wings over the captain’s home down can we all agree that w/o doubt one or both pilots or other crew members were involved?
I have a problem with that.

I have made many posts here in support of the idea that Captain Zaharie was the sole perpetrator of this event, I hold that view as a result of my personal studies if the event and the many debates I've had and debates I've witnessed with people who believe the opposite both here and elsewhere. That hasn't changed. But I've come to believe that a key point in the 60 Minutes program is fraudulent.

The major selling point of the 60 minutes program is the "wing dip" the plane is supposed to have made at Penang. That particular part of the flight has always remained the most elusive part of the flight to nail down because the Malaysians are holding the data from the radar at Pulau Penang as a state secret. I have actually found it hard to believe that 9M-MRO ever flew directly over Penang because the timing is so tight on that leg. But everyone else accepts it so I have conceded that point. As a result, I never challenged the "wing dip" assertion by 60 Minutes. I assumed that one of the participants had viewed the radar tapes during the very early days after the event.

But now after looking into the subject I see that it is the American, the 777 pilot, who makes that reveal, not the Aussie guy who was part of the earlier investigation. I don't believe that guy ever saw the radar returns from Pulau Penang. I believe he made up the "wing dip" from whole cloth.

I continue to believe that Zahrie did it but I don't want that idea supported by fraud or deception.
 
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PW100
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 3:36 pm

salttee wrote:
buzzard302 wrote:
Interesting that lots of large news agencies are willing to put the article out saying the pilot did it. With no other evidence to support otherwise, I have always agreed with the theory. But at the end of the day, there still is no factual evidence to prove the pilot's ill will.
If the pilot did it, how did he eliminate the co-pilot from intervening? Must have waited until co-pilot left the cockpit for a break.

There is a lot of evidence showing that Zaharie did it. You must have avoided seeing it.


Ignoring apparently different interpretation (or even standards) in "evidence", I find the initial questions quite interesting: What new "evidence" has surfaced lately for all these large news agencies to bring out articles, claiming "the pilot did it"? What has changed over the course of last (couple of) years) that they now bring out these reports and conclusions, which they had not done before (not to this level at least).
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PW100
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 3:39 pm

salttee wrote:
I don't believe that guy ever saw the radar returns from Pulau Penang. I believe he made up the "wing dip" from whole cloth.

Is a "wing dip" manoeuvre even recognizable as such on (primary) radar returns?
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 4:50 pm

PW100 wrote:
salttee wrote:
I don't believe that guy ever saw the radar returns from Pulau Penang. I believe he made up the "wing dip" from whole cloth.

Is a "wing dip" manoeuvre even recognizable as such on (primary) radar returns?


I very much doubt it.

I hadn't weighed in till now since this looks like yet another baseless smear campaign designed purely to attract views and clicks - but since you are (finally) the first person to bring this up I want to echo the question,

Secondly - even if you could measure that kind of manoeuvre with that kind of accuracy, what would that even imply? Initiating the turn which followed? Attempting a descent under loss of controls? Fighting the autopilot? "Wing wave" seems way down the list to me.

Thirdly - if the radar was that accurate then I would expect a heck of a lot more detailed information about the condition of the aircraft would be known throughout the first couple of hours of its flight.

Fourthly - as usual - this "evidence" is once again far beyond circumstantial and is being massaged to fit a preconceived theory.


Perhaps I should remind people how "serious science journalism" (PBS and BBC) were convincing everyone there was a strange new weather phenomenon - probably the result of increases in the levels of man-made atmospheric particulates - causing supercooled water vapour to crystallise on contact with aircraft instruments at certain altitudes... meaning that the industry should be redesigning and replacing all its pitot tubes double-quick! And this story was doing the rounds right up until the AF447 black box was found showing that accident was actually just down to dumb piloting.

That was with much more concrete evidence than we have for MH370 - and some actual scientific reasoning - yet I felt even that was highly speculative and sensationlist. Which of course it was and it turned out to be utterly wrong.

So this is why I caution against drawing any kind of conclusion on MH370 when we know almost nothing about what happened - let alone start blaming people and ascribing unsubstatiated motives based on diddly squat.
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trnswrld
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 10:30 pm

I agree, all this latest news is ridiculous. I have no clue what they even mean by this "wing dip". Its the most stupid thing I have heard. The articles state that someone dipped the wings do get a look at his hometown. WTF lol. First of all the captain has large windows all around, what makes them think he needed to dip the wings to see anything? Or the idea of a "wing wave" to say a final good bye. Just ridiculous, and I to wonder why all of a sudden, with apparently no new data are all these news agencies putting out this story.

I also think the captain had something to do with it, but to randomly put out some bogus wing dip story that wouldn't even really mean anything one way or the other anyway is just stupid.

And to reply to someone above about the plane breaking in a million small pieces, well we already know that's not true because atleast one fairly large piece has already been recovered. If I remember correctly one of them was a wing control surface part that seemed to be relatively intact and in good shape.
 
747megatop
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 16, 2018 10:44 pm

Folks, one thing we can all conclusively agree without a doubt; MH 370 is the most discussed & debated topic on a.net ever and most definitely the the single most topic with the largest number of posts (all threads combined including the one from 2014); and will remain so for the foreseeable future with more posts and threads to come on this topic. This is one topic where conspiracy theorists will continue having a field day. It won't be long before we see a Hollywood thriller (unless one hasn't already come out or in the works) out of this saga [no disrespects to the lives lost & kin...but just stating this as is.....there will be commercialization of this event soon in terms of a movie and books].
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu May 17, 2018 12:04 am

747megatop wrote:
Folks, one thing we can all conclusively agree without a doubt; MH 370 is the most discussed & debated topic on a.net ever and most definitely the the single most topic with the largest number of posts (all threads combined including the one from 2014); and will remain so for the foreseeable future with more posts and threads to come on this topic. This is one topic where conspiracy theorists will continue having a field day. It won't be long before we see a Hollywood thriller (unless one hasn't already come out or in the works) out of this saga [no disrespects to the lives lost & kin...but just stating this as is.....there will be commercialization of this event soon in terms of a movie and books].
How do you define "conspiracy theorist"?
 
buzzard302
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu May 17, 2018 12:54 am

747megatop wrote:
Folks, one thing we can all conclusively agree without a doubt; MH 370 is the most discussed & debated topic on a.net ever and most definitely the the single most topic with the largest number of posts (all threads combined including the one from 2014); and will remain so for the foreseeable future with more posts and threads to come on this topic. This is one topic where conspiracy theorists will continue having a field day. It won't be long before we see a Hollywood thriller (unless one hasn't already come out or in the works) out of this saga [no disrespects to the lives lost & kin...but just stating this as is.....there will be commercialization of this event soon in terms of a movie and books].


New show coming on NBC called Manifest. And ABC is working on one called Flight 410. Both revolve around the premise of a lost plane from what I can tell.

Back on topic. I have to agree with others about the latest news articles. So there are experts which have concluded there was a purposeful wing dip maneuver (and the reasoning behind such a maneuver). But yet they can't fill in the rest of the flight details other than what Inmarsat data has revealed. Sounds like the latest media grab to me.
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu May 17, 2018 9:15 am

salttee wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Well if it can be shown that the plane tipped its wings over the captain’s home down can we all agree that w/o doubt one or both pilots or other crew members were involved?
I have a problem with that.

I have made many posts here in support of the idea that Captain Zaharie was the sole perpetrator of this event, I hold that view as a result of my personal studies if the event and the many debates I've had and debates I've witnessed with people who believe the opposite both here and elsewhere. That hasn't changed. But I've come to believe that a key point in the 60 Minutes program is fraudulent.

The major selling point of the 60 minutes program is the "wing dip" the plane is supposed to have made at Penang. That particular part of the flight has always remained the most elusive part of the flight to nail down because the Malaysians are holding the data from the radar at Pulau Penang as a state secret. I have actually found it hard to believe that 9M-MRO ever flew directly over Penang because the timing is so tight on that leg. But everyone else accepts it so I have conceded that point. As a result, I never challenged the "wing dip" assertion by 60 Minutes. I assumed that one of the participants had viewed the radar tapes during the very early days after the event.

But now after looking into the subject I see that it is the American, the 777 pilot, who makes that reveal, not the Aussie guy who was part of the earlier investigation. I don't believe that guy ever saw the radar returns from Pulau Penang. I believe he made up the "wing dip" from whole cloth.

I continue to believe that Zahrie did it but I don't want that idea supported by fraud or deception.


I believe that this "wing dip" idea, by definition, is false and has been made up to get clicks. I believe it is a miss leading way of simply referring to the right hand turn in the Penang area that has long been accepted as part of the path flown. That Penang is Z's home area, and it has been discussed that if he did it he might have wanted to have one last look or say good bye or whatever, exaggerating the right hand turn near Penang to be a "wing dip" to say good bye is just a way to get clicks and help speed up a slow news day. And as others have asked, could a wing dip even be picked up on radar? I doubt it. Regardless, the plane turned right there anyway so of course the right wing dipped... (Caveat: I haven't seen the new 60 Minutes story yet because I'm in a jungle area in Thailand right now - hoping to visit the Lauda Air 004 crash site - and the link won't work)...
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu May 17, 2018 11:02 am

I was just able to view the 60 Mins clip and I must say, especially as an Aussie & Aussie tax payer, listening to the ATSB guy really pissed me off... For him, at the end, to say he believed it was intentional is laughable given that they are basing the search on an uncontrolled ending (despite the flaperon condition and earlier maneuvers / chain of events / flight path)... Unbelievable... I agree with the British 777 pilot (Simon Hardy) and the Canadian air crash investigator (Larry Vance) - (my apologies if I spelt the names wrong) - with their ideas about making the plane vanish and about the importance of being there at the end to finish the job properly. If this search comes up empty then it will further cast doubt on the uncontrolled ending and look more favourably upon a long controlled glide ending. Also, FWIW, the stress and look on the ATSB guys face tells it's own story.

I did hear the part about the left turn "wing dip" before the right turn near Penang but that is the first I have heard of that and I'd like to know how the 777 pilot worked that out because he did say something to the effect of 'if you look at the info carefully' - so, what info is he using to work out that there was a left wing dip before the accepted right turn?

Again, disappointed at ATSB basing the search area on an uncontrolled ending despite the flaperon and other things pointing to intentional flight / controlled ditching, and hoping that when this search comes up empty they will search where a controlled glide ending would put the aircraft.
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moa999
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu May 17, 2018 11:25 am

777Jet wrote:
Again, disappointed at ATSB basing the search area on an uncontrolled ending despite the flaperon and other things pointing to intentional flight / controlled ditching, and hoping that when this search comes up empty they will search where a controlled glide ending would put the aircraft.


I didn't think this was well covered in the program.

I can think of a few reasons.
1. The Southern Ocean isn't like the Hudson River - it has massive swells so a controlled 'landing' is unlikely and may not be that different to uncontrolled
2. I find it hard to accept the aircraft would fly dead straight for 6hrs, and then the pilot would take control
3. If I recall from many moons ago the 7th Inmarsat signal was incomplete and consistent with loss of all power
4. If you did accept that the pilot controlled the aircraft for another 80miles, they could presumably also turn the aircraft somewhat which probably expands a possible search zone by 100x or so, making it an even more improbable search task
 
gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu May 17, 2018 1:32 pm

Gentlemen, a few months ago there was a link to another forum where I found the most interesting thing I have read about this story: that the experts who examined the flaperon have concluded from the damage it sustained and from some tell-tale signs that the aircraft made a controlled ditching and upon hitting the water it flipped over just like the Ethiopian 767 in that famous 1996 video. This is food for thought...
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu May 17, 2018 2:02 pm

moa999 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Again, disappointed at ATSB basing the search area on an uncontrolled ending despite the flaperon and other things pointing to intentional flight / controlled ditching, and hoping that when this search comes up empty they will search where a controlled glide ending would put the aircraft.


I didn't think this was well covered in the program.

I can think of a few reasons.
1. The Southern Ocean isn't like the Hudson River - it has massive swells so a controlled 'landing' is unlikely and may not be that different to uncontrolled
2. I find it hard to accept the aircraft would fly dead straight for 6hrs, and then the pilot would take control
3. If I recall from many moons ago the 7th Inmarsat signal was incomplete and consistent with loss of all power
4. If you did accept that the pilot controlled the aircraft for another 80miles, they could presumably also turn the aircraft somewhat which probably expands a possible search zone by 100x or so, making it an even more improbable search task


1- When the Ocean expert said 3-4 meter swells on that day, I think it was the 777 pilot that said still could be successfully ditched. The Canadian investigator still said it could remain in large pieces (engines off, one wing off and possibly one wing even connected). Regardless of if it broke up or not after impact, the controlled glide v dive debate is regarding determining the impact area and hence where to search. Doesn't matter if it broke up or not upon impact, how far it flew is more important in locating it.

2- Why not? The auto pilot flying a heading for most of the flight before the pilot hand flies the landing is the norm anyway, no?

3- RAT would deploy and provide enough control to steer it down and then flare before the belly flop.

4- Correct. Worst case scenario... Glide starts at max cruise speed from max 777 altitude in any direction, straight, left, right, u-turn - massive area to cover right there. IIRC the 777 pilot said he glided it for 88nm over 9 mins... I reckon it could stretch farther than that... Let's say 100nm + in any direction, so a 360 degree radius from that final ping, plus a few extra miles to cover debris drifting in currents on the way down = massive search area!

I wonder if it's worth this search company dropping an old engine core or landing gear 6kms or so down to the sea floor just to check if their good toys can even pick it up... under silt...
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu May 17, 2018 2:34 pm

One important aspect about this whole discussion about the search, and not mentioned very often, is how useful or futile could be an eventual finding of the remains in order to provide real, effective and useful answers re what really happened to this flight. If they find the wreckage 4 or 5 kms. down, the actual recovery of relevant pieces like the black boxes or the engines could be extremely hard to achieve.
And even then, the information that the investigators could obtain from the debris after so many years exposed to the deep sea will be very limited and non conclusive. I’m not saying the search is a scam , I would love to know the truth about this flight like everybody else here, but IMHO this search effort is more a political issue and a PR issue with every single day passing since the aircraft vanished.
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salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu May 17, 2018 4:22 pm

All I need to know is: whose bones are on the flight deck?
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 12:39 am

salttee wrote:
All I need to know is: whose bones are on the flight deck?


Sadly, that, nor the FDR data showing which side control inputs were coming from, nor the CVR showing which side human noise was coming from, will confirm anything if this was as meticulously planned as many suspect.

In a perfect crime scenario (so far this is what seems to have happened because it worked!), the pilot flying the ditching would sit in the seat of the other pilot so the FDR, if ever found and in working condition, would point to the other pilot. CVR mics would also pick up breathing and noises coming from the other pilot's side thus further pointing to the other pilot. If the ditching was a success, and that is possible, after ditching, the bad pilot would place the body of the good pilot back in his seat, strap it in, exit the cockpit, close the door, and then pick a spot somewhere else in the plane to make it look like you were locked out of the cockpit by the other pilot. There would be enough time to do this if the ditching went somewhat okay. The hardest part would be just waiting out the end, but there would be plenty of booze around to help with that and that would be required as the final part of the plan.

Only if we can identify a voice on the CVR at the end will we really 100% know who was in control. Sadly, we will never hear how it went down around the time of the ATC hand-off...
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buzzard302
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 2:01 am

Pretty good thought process 777Jet (even if it didn't happen as you wrote). Either way, intentional or unintentional, this plane did a good job of disappearing. I'm glad I'm still relatively young. I hope it will be found in my lifetime. As time goes on though, any possible evidence found will become more and more difficult to analyze.
 
gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 2:38 am

Nobody will ever give it another try. That was our last chance...don't forget that. Case closed.
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 3:05 am

As he rounded POVUS I'm sure he thought he was home free, he didn't need any more shenanigans.
If the bones aren't Zaharie's, we'll deal with that then.
And I'm sure he flew from the left seat.
 
747megatop
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 5:11 am

moa999 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Again, disappointed at ATSB basing the search area on an uncontrolled ending despite the flaperon and other things pointing to intentional flight / controlled ditching, and hoping that when this search comes up empty they will search where a controlled glide ending would put the aircraft.


I didn't think this was well covered in the program.

I can think of a few reasons.
1. The Southern Ocean isn't like the Hudson River - it has massive swells so a controlled 'landing' is unlikely and may not be that different to uncontrolled
2. I find it hard to accept the aircraft would fly dead straight for 6hrs, and then the pilot would take control
3. If I recall from many moons ago the 7th Inmarsat signal was incomplete and consistent with loss of all power
4. If you did accept that the pilot controlled the aircraft for another 80miles, they could presumably also turn the aircraft somewhat which probably expands a possible search zone by 100x or so, making it an even more improbable search task

What is the accuracy of the Inmarsat analysis. Is there a possibility that the plane flew in some kind of deliberate zig zag pattern and still produce the "arcs" that lead to this search area? It has been 4 years and my memory is faint, not am i an expert on satellites or mathematics. Does anybody know?
 
747megatop
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 5:15 am

777Jet wrote:
salttee wrote:
All I need to know is: whose bones are on the flight deck?


Sadly, that, nor the FDR data showing which side control inputs were coming from, nor the CVR showing which side human noise was coming from, will confirm anything if this was as meticulously planned as many suspect.

In a perfect crime scenario (so far this is what seems to have happened because it worked!), the pilot flying the ditching would sit in the seat of the other pilot so the FDR, if ever found and in working condition, would point to the other pilot. CVR mics would also pick up breathing and noises coming from the other pilot's side thus further pointing to the other pilot. If the ditching was a success, and that is possible, after ditching, the bad pilot would place the body of the good pilot back in his seat, strap it in, exit the cockpit, close the door, and then pick a spot somewhere else in the plane to make it look like you were locked out of the cockpit by the other pilot. There would be enough time to do this if the ditching went somewhat okay. The hardest part would be just waiting out the end, but there would be plenty of booze around to help with that and that would be required as the final part of the plan.

Only if we can identify a voice on the CVR at the end will we really 100% know who was in control. Sadly, we will never hear how it went down around the time of the ATC hand-off...

But the CVR and FDR and the wreckage will not be found for a long time to come. Even if the wreckage is found let's say 20 or 30 or 50 years from now...let's hope the tail section is intact...otherwise who knows where the recorders would be thanks to strong underwater currents.
 
747megatop
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 5:19 am

salttee wrote:
.How do you define "conspiracy theorist"?

How does plane landed in Diego Garcia and then disappeared completely with all bodies in a cover op sound for a start? OR ...one or more govts colluded to pluck it mid air and shipped it off to outer space? You get the picture i guess.
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 1:04 pm

747megatop wrote:
moa999 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Again, disappointed at ATSB basing the search area on an uncontrolled ending despite the flaperon and other things pointing to intentional flight / controlled ditching, and hoping that when this search comes up empty they will search where a controlled glide ending would put the aircraft.


I didn't think this was well covered in the program.

I can think of a few reasons.
1. The Southern Ocean isn't like the Hudson River - it has massive swells so a controlled 'landing' is unlikely and may not be that different to uncontrolled
2. I find it hard to accept the aircraft would fly dead straight for 6hrs, and then the pilot would take control
3. If I recall from many moons ago the 7th Inmarsat signal was incomplete and consistent with loss of all power
4. If you did accept that the pilot controlled the aircraft for another 80miles, they could presumably also turn the aircraft somewhat which probably expands a possible search zone by 100x or so, making it an even more improbable search task

What is the accuracy of the Inmarsat analysis. Is there a possibility that the plane flew in some kind of deliberate zig zag pattern and still produce the "arcs" that lead to this search area? It has been 4 years and my memory is faint, not am i an expert on satellites or mathematics. Does anybody know?


I often wondered the same thing about not flying in a straight line (even doing circles or any other pattern) to intentionally throw off those who would naturally assume the plane flew as far as possible. Could the plane have flown (for example) 4 circles in the first hour out to sea, then 3 wider circles in the second hour, then 2, then 1... therefore still progressing South which fits the data. If that happened the plane could be much farther North along the Southern half of the final arc. Whilst I doubt that happened, I have often wondered if that would have been possible?

One part of the chain of events that I can't find a very convincing reason for under the intentional scenario is for turning the SatCom back on. Why would such an experienced Captain trying to make his aircraft vanish turn the SatCom back on thus leaving the trail of pings when everything else was pretty much done perfectly to not be found? Did he turn it back on knowing about the pings, but intentionally not fly in a straight line, to really throw off those who would be searching for the aircraft assuming it went as far as possible in the direction the pings indicate?
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 2:08 pm

Because speed, direction and time combine to place the aircraft at a certain distance from the satellite for each ping. The data matches a steady heading at a steady speed which happens to be typical for cruise...

If they were flying anything like circles then they could never have crossed those arcs unless they were going at supersonic speeds...

Also, no-one would try to fool the satellite data since it had never, ever been used to trace a flightpath like that before.
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gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 2:44 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 266):
] (Caveat: I haven't seen the new 60 Minutes story yet because I'm in a jungle area in Thailand right now - hoping to visit the Lauda Air 004 crash site - and the link won't work)...

Wait a moment, are you serious? We don't go to such places.Haven't you ever heard about "the memory of objects"? Do you want something to be "copy/pasted" on you? 777jet do you read me? Come back to civilization immediately. Over and out._
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 10:30 pm

gzm wrote:
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 266):
] (Caveat: I haven't seen the new 60 Minutes story yet because I'm in a jungle area in Thailand right now - hoping to visit the Lauda Air 004 crash site - and the link won't work)...

Wait a moment, are you serious? We don't go to such places.Haven't you ever heard about "the memory of objects"? Do you want something to be "copy/pasted" on you? 777jet do you read me? Come back to civilization immediately. Over and out._


What are you waffling on about now? And, what are you on? Most of the stuff you post makes no sense...
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buzzard302
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri May 18, 2018 10:39 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Because speed, direction and time combine to place the aircraft at a certain distance from the satellite for each ping. The data matches a steady heading at a steady speed which happens to be typical for cruise...

If they were flying anything like circles then they could never have crossed those arcs unless they were going at supersonic speeds...

Also, no-one would try to fool the satellite data since it had never, ever been used to trace a flightpath like that before.


Exactly. The Inmarsat data is accurate, but still does not provide exact precision as to the final location. The pilot may have been a smart and experienced pilot, but there is no way he had the forethought to manipulate Inmarsat data.
 
gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sat May 19, 2018 3:54 am

Accurate or not we know from those 9/11 videos on YouTube what drone planes can do. Have you watched them? They are very illuminating. After Ocean Infinity you cannot go on about South Indian Ocean. They have used all available technology and found nothing. It is a hoax admit it! Or, look at what 777Jet is doing. Disillusioned, he goes to find another plane. (And take home in his luggage some dreadful souvenirs).
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sat May 19, 2018 2:39 pm

gzm wrote:
Accurate or not we know from those 9/11 videos on YouTube what drone planes can do. Have you watched them? They are very illuminating.


Oh the irony in YOU calling others "Disillusioned" - Why do you keep denying that some humans will intentionally crash aircraft? You have denied the notion of pilot suicide despite events like GermanWings, Egypt Air 990, Silk Air 185 & Fed Ex 705, among others, and now you claim that the 9/11 aircraft were drones...

gzm wrote:
. After Ocean Infinity you cannot go on about South Indian Ocean. They have used all available technology and found nothing. It is a hoax admit it!


They have not even searched the area where a long controlled glide would place the impact point, and as somebody who agrees that the most likely scenario is the rogue pilot secanrio that ends with an attempted ditching, why the heck would I accept the Ocean Infinity 'no 9M-MRO found yet' results as case closed when they haven't been searching in the area the most likely scenario places the aircraft? Is everything a "hoax" to you?

gzm wrote:
look at what 777Jet is doing. Disillusioned, he goes to find another plane. (And take home in his luggage some dreadful souvenirs).


Lauda Air 004 wreckage was actually found shortly after the accident. The precise location of the wreckage is known so there is nothing to find. I believe a lot of that wreckage was left in the jungle and some is still there (sadly some has been stolen just like the valuable items on the bodies of the victims by those who arrived first on scene) and people do go there and offer their respects.

If you believe in ghosts following you around and whatever copy / pasted nonsense you last posted about then why do you bother participating in an air crash discussion? Oh wait, let me guess... MH370 was a drone! There were no people on board! Right? You should start writing books like SpyHunter! ;)
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gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sat May 19, 2018 3:17 pm

Quoting 777Jet:
Why do you keep denying that some humans will intentionally crash aircraft?

What you are implying my dear pen pal is that every experienced,distinguished, career pilot about to take his pension is a potential zombie willing to ruin everything for no good reason. There is no way I can agree with that. Period.
You remember why the Ethiopian 767 was ditched in the Comoros Islands? It had two hijackers on board. I suspect that is how it all started in the case of MH 370.
 
ac888yow
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sun May 20, 2018 1:20 am

Ottawa air crash investigators say they've solved the mystery of Flight MH370


http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new ... ight-mh370
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sun May 20, 2018 1:24 am

gzm wrote:
Quoting 777Jet:
Why do you keep denying that some humans will intentionally crash aircraft?

What you are implying my dear pen pal is that every experienced,distinguished, career pilot about to take his pension is a potential zombie willing to ruin everything for no good reason. There is no way I can agree with that. Period.
You remember why the Ethiopian 767 was ditched in the Comoros Islands? It had two hijackers on board. I suspect that is how it all started in the case of MH 370.


How do you know there was no good reason? Are you saying that everything about the pilot is already known? Reasons have been discussed and there are probably more. You don't know what it takes to push each different individual over the edge. And it doesn't matter if anybody else thinks that reason whatever is a good enough reason, it only matters in the mind of the individual who will act upon it. Where the reasons -(owed money, punishment for indecent behaviour resulting in removal from international flying, deteriorating eyesight, insurance payout for family, etc.)- for the other suicide flights "good reasons" to you? Those problems are faced by many, many people who just deal with it. Yet there are a handful that will go out with a bang. I believe that, given certain social media postings over time, combined with the politics / trial on the evening of the flight, possibly combined with a personal issue that may or may not be known to the public, and... combined with getting the perfect opportunity... it could easily be a good enough reason in the individual mind of somebody else.

Now we know you have shifted from your Helios ghost flight scenario to hijacking and are therefore moving away from an accident scenario towards HUMAN intervention. Good day!
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gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sun May 20, 2018 3:50 am

Dood morning, 777Jet
I will tell you something from my point of view as a former gate agent: First of all,how many of you have worked at an airport? None,I suspect. Second, after four years I find it natural to have changed my opinion. Some time ago I suspected the reason was technical and now I understand that it was not. But do you know how serious it is -from a gate agent's point of view-to let two Iranians with false passports board a flight and then the plane disappears? It means you have failed in your business,in your purpose,everything-not to mention that you will be interrogated to say the least.Third, in one of those YouTube videos, two weeks after the disaster,there was one pilot who said:"Why disconnect your radio,transponder,etc,you may still need to communicate". You see,pilots understand more than we do but they just cannot say it for obvious reasons...
 
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9MMPQ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sun May 20, 2018 4:41 am

gzm wrote:
You see,pilots understand more than we do but they just cannot say it for obvious reasons...


And do not want to think/talk about it when possibilities take everyday things to a very dark place.
I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sun May 20, 2018 8:19 am

G'day

777Jet wrote:
They have not even searched the area where a long controlled glide would place the impact point, and as somebody who agrees that the most likely scenario is the rogue pilot secanrio that ends with an attempted ditching, why the heck would I accept the Ocean Infinity 'no 9M-MRO found yet' results as case closed when they haven't been searching in the area the most likely scenario places the aircraft? Is everything a "hoax" to you?


I seriously doubt the ditching theory. Why on earth would a rogue pilot ditch his hijacked plane? He may actually survive the ditching. Then what, use one of the planes flotation devices to survive a few more days before starving to death? As far as I know the plane was not ditched anywhere close to land or some paradise island where the pilot could happily live on before dying a natural death. Maybe the guy swam over to the Australian coast and leads a happy life as a bush man hunting crocs :banghead:


Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sun May 20, 2018 10:52 am

There is no way to know how the last minutes of flight transpired, there is no information about that except for some sketchy Inmarsat data and a flaperon that most likely was dislodged by water. It is all left to one's imagination. Keep in mind that the person on the flight deck could have used the energy of the plane striking the water to bring his life to an abrupt end. 160 knots or so isn't really all that slow.
 
gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sun May 20, 2018 4:09 pm

The plane was ditched carefully,both links attest to that, due to the condition of the flaperon. (One link in reply 288,the other one appeared in November last year). The problem is where that happened. Because people seem to believe that those pieces found their way to Madagascar, Tanzania and Reunion without sinking, all the way from the South Indian Ocean. So where are the others? They have just sunk,you will say. The absence of other pieces in my opinion means that they have been meticulously collected and that those who did that missed the flaperon. We should put the spot of the ditching northward, to mid-Indian Ocean. Let's forget Inmarsat and their primitive technology.
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sun May 20, 2018 10:24 pm

gzm wrote:
The plane was ditched carefully,both links attest to that, due to the condition of the flaperon.
You're drawing an unfounded conclusion from very little data. Maybe the plane was ditched carefully, maybe not.
gzm wrote:
Let's forget Inmarsat and their primitive technology.
If you hadn't made yourself irrelevant with the above sentence you succeeded here. Measuring distance by the speed of light isn't primitive technology even now in the 21st century. I will agree that once the problem has been set up and cross checked (BTO prediction of aircraft location prior to takeoff) the following calculations are but middle school math.
 
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cougar15
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Mon May 21, 2018 2:46 am

for those who have not seen the 60 minutes AU piece mentioned above, it´s on youtube now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm1j1fpldkc
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Mon May 21, 2018 2:57 am

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

777Jet wrote:
They have not even searched the area where a long controlled glide would place the impact point, and as somebody who agrees that the most likely scenario is the rogue pilot secanrio that ends with an attempted ditching, why the heck would I accept the Ocean Infinity 'no 9M-MRO found yet' results as case closed when they haven't been searching in the area the most likely scenario places the aircraft? Is everything a "hoax" to you?


I seriously doubt the ditching theory. Why on earth would a rogue pilot ditch his hijacked plane? He may actually survive the ditching. Then what, use one of the planes flotation devices to survive a few more days before starving to death? As far as I know the plane was not ditched anywhere close to land or some paradise island where the pilot could happily live on before dying a natural death. Maybe the guy swam over to the Australian coast and leads a happy life as a bush man hunting crocs :banghead:


Cheers

Peter


Ditchings have been survived, including the Ethiopian 767 ditching given the chaos going on in that cockpit at the time. If that's what happened, the perpetrator would have then gone down with their vessel in the pilot did it scenario. You have to do what you have to do. Apparently the Titanic Captain just stood there and let himself drown in the end, just stood there, must have been hard to not try and save yourself in the very end and just stand there and let yourself drown... But to add to your story, just for fun, maybe this guy was picked up by a boat full of boat people heading to Oz and ended up in Christmas or Manus Island or was lucky and ended up being transferred to the mainland where he lives off centrelink and Oz taxpayers such as myself...

gzm wrote:
Some time ago I suspected the reason was technical and now I understand that it was not. But do you know how serious it is -from a gate agent's point of view-to let two Iranians with false passports board a flight and then the plane disappears? 


So you now think the two Iranians with fake passports hijacked the plane. Then what?
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gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Mon May 21, 2018 6:22 pm

Found this on the Internet: The theory posited on "60 Minutes" has something in common with previous ones about the fate of MH370,said a skeptical Sara Norton,whose brother died on the plane. They're all guesswork. "Basically it's the same as everything else that's happened with this particular flight", Norton said."It's all assumption and supposition and opinion"."They have no corroborated facts to back any of it up,and we have never had anything corroborated."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Mon May 21, 2018 8:14 pm

gzm wrote:
Found this on the Internet: The theory posited on "60 Minutes" has something in common with previous ones about the fate of MH370,said a skeptical Sara Norton,whose brother died on the plane. They're all guesswork. "Basically it's the same as everything else that's happened with this particular flight", Norton said."It's all assumption and supposition and opinion"."They have no corroborated facts to back any of it up,and we have never had anything corroborated."


Good for her! :thumbsup:
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 22, 2018 12:16 am

corroborated fact: Zaharie was an extreme political radical
corroborated fact: Zaharie made a call to an (illegal) unregistered cell phone before takeoff at KL
corroborated fact: First officer Fariq had handled comms up until the last message
corroborated fact: Zaharie was the one on the microphone at FIR turnover
corroborated fact: Zaharie logged out of KLATCC but never logged into HCMATCC
corroborated fact: Loss of comms after logging out but before logging in at FIR turnover creates an unusual circumstance which delays being reported "missing" by an extra hour
corroborated fact: Zaharie had practiced a nearly identical flight plan to the Southern Ocean on his home flight simulator.
corroborated fact: Zaharie was one of the very few people who would have been capable of manipulating the system and executing the known flight regime after turnover
corroborated fact: Zaharie's friend Anwar Ibrahim had his five year prison sentence for homosexuality upheld earlier in the day of the disappearance.
corroborated fact: The flight regimen flown after turnaround cannot be attributed to accident - the plane was obviously under control of a pilot
corroborated fact: The only other person on the plane who knew how to fly a plane was his very junior First officer.
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