c933103 wrote:

eamondzhang wrote:

c933103 wrote:

When the current airlines booking option cannot actually reflect the different in comfort level between various economy seats, and PY are overpriced like double standard economy fare for a better profit margin, I don't think that is fair to say customer have been given the choice to pick.

But they still can fill the seats with the price. Why should they lower the W class price just to please you?

Michael

It just indicate how bad the basic economy class experience have become that people are willing to overpay that much to escape from them.

B737900ER wrote:

c933103 wrote:

When the current airlines booking option cannot actually reflect the different in comfort level between various economy seats, and PY are overpriced like double standard economy fare for a better profit margin, I don't think that is fair to say customer have been given the choice to pick.

Given the option between a bare bones fare on Norwegian or spirit or paying 10 dollars more for an all inclusive fare on another airline, or paying 50 dollars less to fly a 3-4-3 777 on EK vs a 3-3-3 777 on another Airline, the consumer has made a choice. It’s not debatable anymore and the data and research clearly shows the majority shop on price. Out of 300 people on a flight how many do you think did research on comfort and amenities? When you do a flight search what are the only two metrics shown? Price, then schedule. Very few people in the real world care about meals and aircraft configuration when purchasing a ticket.

- The seat experience and comfort level with barebone fare on ULCC aren't that much different from legacies especially on short haul route so that's not related to the discussion. I ain't really talking about meals or amenities.
- As for paying 50 less for 3-4-3 777 instead of 3-3-3 777, as I said, I conceive the reason it as that passengers are not presented with the information on the difference between of those seats. People do not research on comfort level of seats, and that should be the job of flight searchers to tell them that as those seats are what they're selling but I don't think this piece of information is available in many booking site. At the end consumer might still know about it but the feedback process is more convoluted. Just like when Skymark was flying 2-4-2 767, people don't know what 2-4-2 mean, but they know seats on Skymark are tight and end up avoid flying the airlines and that at least partially caused the company's demise. Now every airlines switched into tighter config within just a few years time and almost all airlines have moved toward tighter seat, before the market ever have time to react via factors like brand image, these indirect response cannot occur immediately.

Anyone buying ticks without looking at Seat guru...

But Y+ if there is an issue. People are buying only on price. Airlines must adapt to that...

Lightsaber

c933103 wrote:

I conceive the reason it as that passengers are not presented with the information on the difference between of those seats. People do not research on comfort level of seats, and that should be the job of flight searchers to tell them that as those seats are what they're selling but I don't think this piece of information is available in many booking site.

People don’t do research, and flight searchers don’t tell them, because people don’t care. They only care about price. It’s a fact. There’s no other argument to be had.

c933103 wrote:

eamondzhang wrote:

c933103 wrote:

When the current airlines booking option cannot actually reflect the different in comfort level between various economy seats, and PY are overpriced like double standard economy fare for a better profit margin, I don't think that is fair to say customer have been given the choice to pick.

But they still can fill the seats with the price. Why should they lower the W class price just to please you?

Michael

It just indicate how bad the basic economy class experience have become that people are willing to overpay that much to escape from them.

Airlines like JL, QF, BA has been pricing their W in that level for more than 10 years, or even cheaper I would argue. I didn't see you complain about the price at that time, and that's when Y class is already shrinking in terms of quality and much more expensive on most long haul than today's price.

So stop complaining and pay for it or just swap with another airline. End of the story.

Michael

eamondzhang wrote:

Airlines like JL, QF, BA has been pricing their W in that level for more than 10 years, or even cheaper I would argue. I didn't see you complain about the price at that time, and that's when Y class is already shrinking in terms of quality and much more expensive on most long haul than today's price.

So stop complaining and pay for it or just swap with another airline. End of the story.

Michael

What you are saying, apparently, would only reinforce my statement? You are saying the different in price tag as well as the discrepancy in product definition between W and Y is now larger than 10 years ago.

lightsaber wrote:

Anyone buying ticks without looking at Seat guru...

But Y+ if there is an issue. People are buying only on price. Airlines must adapt to that...

Lightsaber

Y+ is still same width as Y..

B737900ER wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I conceive the reason it as that passengers are not presented with the information on the difference between of those seats. People do not research on comfort level of seats, and that should be the job of flight searchers to tell them that as those seats are what they're selling but I don't think this piece of information is available in many booking site.

People don’t do research, and flight searchers don’t tell them, because people don’t care. They only care about price. It’s a fact. There’s no other argument to be had.

Most people around the world are lazy, and they won't do research on things that even if they care about, that's why we have product labelling laws for lots of different goods being sold around the world.

c933103 wrote:

eamondzhang wrote:

Airlines like JL, QF, BA has been pricing their W in that level for more than 10 years, or even cheaper I would argue. I didn't see you complain about the price at that time, and that's when Y class is already shrinking in terms of quality and much more expensive on most long haul than today's price.

So stop complaining and pay for it or just swap with another airline. End of the story.

Michael

What you are saying, apparently, would only reinforce my statement? You are saying the different in price tag as well as the discrepancy in product definition between W and Y is now larger than 10 years ago.

Your statement is NOT reinforced. I'll repeat, the price tag has not been increased, in fact reduced on many routes, and these airlines offer TRUE W.

So again, stop complaining about the price tag or whatever that you are trying to put on. Seriously, simple logic really, you pay what you get. If you're not happy with what UA offers and what others offer, go find another one that suits you. Today we've got so many flights than what we had 10 years ago, and it's easier than ever to find a substitute.

Is it really hard to understand? I never thought A.net has come to this standard.

Michael

eamondzhang wrote:

c933103 wrote:

eamondzhang wrote:

Airlines like JL, QF, BA has been pricing their W in that level for more than 10 years, or even cheaper I would argue. I didn't see you complain about the price at that time, and that's when Y class is already shrinking in terms of quality and much more expensive on most long haul than today's price.

So stop complaining and pay for it or just swap with another airline. End of the story.

Michael

What you are saying, apparently, would only reinforce my statement? You are saying the different in price tag as well as the discrepancy in product definition between W and Y is now larger than 10 years ago.

Your statement is NOT reinforced. I'll repeat, the price tag has not been increased, in fact reduced on many routes, and these airlines offer TRUE W.

So again, stop complaining about the price tag or whatever that you are trying to put on. Seriously, simple logic really, you pay what you get. If you're not happy with what UA offers and what others offer, go find another one that suits you. Today we've got so many flights than what we had 10 years ago, and it's easier than ever to find a substitute.

Is it really hard to understand? I never thought A.net has come to this standard.

Michael

- W class price have not increased, but Y class price and the experience have been reduced. Thus the gap between them enlarged.
- I am not talking about just UA but all airlines in general. How many airlines still offer the like of 3-3-3 777?

c933103 wrote:

eamondzhang wrote:

c933103 wrote:

What you are saying, apparently, would only reinforce my statement? You are saying the different in price tag as well as the discrepancy in product definition between W and Y is now larger than 10 years ago.

Your statement is NOT reinforced. I'll repeat, the price tag has not been increased, in fact reduced on many routes, and these airlines offer TRUE W.

So again, stop complaining about the price tag or whatever that you are trying to put on. Seriously, simple logic really, you pay what you get. If you're not happy with what UA offers and what others offer, go find another one that suits you. Today we've got so many flights than what we had 10 years ago, and it's easier than ever to find a substitute.

Is it really hard to understand? I never thought A.net has come to this standard.

Michael

- W class price have not increased, but Y class price and the experience have been reduced. Thus the gap between them enlarged.
- I am not talking about just UA but all airlines in general. How many airlines still offer the like of 3-3-3 777?

- W class price have DECREASED. I've said that crystal clear and you're still ignoring the fact.
- Too many, have you not bothered just trying to do some research? Last time I counted (in another thread a couple days ago) there's at least 15, and I'm just grabbing them out of my mind. It may not be a thing in your country, whether in NA or EU, but that's far from the implication that 3-3-3 777 is extinct from the planet, or even 2-4-3 777 for that matter.

Michael

c933103 wrote:

- W class price have not increased, but Y class price and the experience have been reduced. Thus the gap between them enlarged.
- I am not talking about just UA but all airlines in general. How many airlines still offer the like of 3-3-3 777?

Bottom line, it's real simple: airlines are responding to what customers want. All that is happening is product segmentation and differentiation.

There are customers who want more comfort and a better inflight experience, and for those people, the proliferation of premium economy offerings provides a new and better option, but of course at a higher price commensurate with the higher opportunity cost, and higher value, of offering that level of product/service offering.

And for the large swaths of customers - the vast majority, I'd say - who want a lower fare first and foremost, airlines have adjusted their standard economy offering accordingly, providing (in some cases) less comfort and less amenities, again commensurate with the opportunity cost and value associated with that customer segment's desires.

With respect to basic economy (backpack-only fares, etc.), less legroom, 10-abreast 777s, etc. - all of those things are product attributes that, by and large, people can choose to purchase or not. U.S. carriers' widebodies fly almost exclusively longhaul international routes which means, almost by definition, that they're in competitive markets. There are virtually zero city pairs flown by U.S. widebodies that face zero competition - sometimes that competition is on an alternative airline, or alliance, or with a stopover, etc. But there is competition. So when AA, for instance, flies 10-abreast 777s to Asia, or when Delta introduces basic economy fares to Europe, etc. - and customers don't revolt - the message the market is effectively communicating is that these product/service offerings are acceptable. As soon as people refuse to sit in 10-abreast 777s, or buy basic economy longhaul tickets, the airlines will immediately stop offering such products.

But based on consumer behavior to date, I'm not holding my breath for that to happen anytime soon - contrary to the hysteria that seems to ensue here on A.net, it seems that the market by and large is quite accepting, if not even possibly in some cases enthusiastic, about these choices. Because, outside A.net, there are people who really like these choices.

commavia wrote:

But based on consumer behavior to date, I'm not holding my breath for that to happen anytime soon - contrary to the hysteria that seems to ensue here on A.net, it seems that the market by and large is quite accepting, if not even possibly in some cases enthusiastic, about these choices. Because, outside A.net, there are people who really like these choices.

Incorrect. The product isn’t customized. So whether I buy a F, J, W, Y, or Y- ticket, I’m not necessarily signaling that I like the choices. I am signaling which option is closest to my preference.

Cubsrule wrote:

commavia wrote:

But based on consumer behavior to date, I'm not holding my breath for that to happen anytime soon - contrary to the hysteria that seems to ensue here on A.net, it seems that the market by and large is quite accepting, if not even possibly in some cases enthusiastic, about these choices. Because, outside A.net, there are people who really like these choices.

Incorrect. The product isn’t customized. So whether I buy a F, J, W, Y, or Y- ticket, I’m not necessarily signaling that I like the choices. I am signaling which option is closest to my preference.

...but the product is customizable.

You are buying the base product that most closely fits your needs and then have the option of paying for add ons to make the product what you want.

Book UA in Polaris J class...comes with checked bags, lounge access, premier access boarding ect. Want something slightly more exclusive add United Signature Service and someone will escort you from the gate and manage any issues that come up on your behalf.

Book UA in basic economy...doesn't come with much in the way of frills but lets say you have a long layover and want club access...you can buy a daypass or not the choice is yours.

Ultimately that is what UA, and DL/AA for that matter, are getting very good at...market segmentation, unbundling so you are not paying for things you won't use and providing access to the options you want.

United1 wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

commavia wrote:

But based on consumer behavior to date, I'm not holding my breath for that to happen anytime soon - contrary to the hysteria that seems to ensue here on A.net, it seems that the market by and large is quite accepting, if not even possibly in some cases enthusiastic, about these choices. Because, outside A.net, there are people who really like these choices.

Incorrect. The product isn’t customized. So whether I buy a F, J, W, Y, or Y- ticket, I’m not necessarily signaling that I like the choices. I am signaling which option is closest to my preference.

...but the product is customizable.

. . . to a point. There are only so many seat options, for instance, and it's not like anyone on the plane can have any option. I can't buy up to the J wine list if I'm sitting in back, no matter how much I'm prepared to pay for it.

There needs to be another choice. Its either a very expensive first class or a cramped economy seat. Most people want a little more elbow room. The airlines advertise an economy plus like its so much more comfortable seat. I suffered 12 hours in between two fat people. I lost feeling in my left arm which hurt for a week after. Because I sat with my shoulders curled inward to fit. I would have paid more for a wider seat. The only alternative was a 4 thousand dollar seat. I do very well but 4k is a bit expensive.

strfyr51 wrote:

That has been known for YEARS!! Business class on CO has always Been "Business-First" They never had 3 class service.
Could have been to limit upgrades to paying travelers. Who Knows?? Whether I like it or Not?? That's the way it is..

A more wrong and false statement could not have been made...

http://frequentlyflying.boardingarea.co ... 3x1024.jpg