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keesje
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Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:25 pm

There's a solid airline for sale.

- A strong leisure driven network from one of Europes biggest markets.
Image

- 35 A320's including everything, pilots, support.
- 737MAX order, although it's unclear who paid what.

I can't imagine Easyjet isn't looking at this.The leisure market is stronger then ever before, Airbus is sold out for years.

Of course drastic reorganization is required. But you can't wait too long though the company is already disintegrating. Who needs an A320 / pilot?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/19/ryanair-offers-pilots-12000-bonus-to-tackle-cancelled-flights-fiasco
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:31 pm

I feel that Jet2's expansion really hurt Monarch, especially when they started flying from London. Jet2 has been expanding rapidly and has over 50 737s by now. I expect they'll be going heavily after the markets and passengers that Monarch had. I doubt they have any interest in A320s or any shreds of Monarch. You have TUI, which are also a 737 operator and has a vast network of affiliates to move capacity and airplanes around if needed. Thomas Cook has a similar fleet to Monarch, but I don't know if they are in the financial position to expand or have interest.

In short, there's plenty of options for the UK holiday crowd already. The pilots can easily find work elsewhere. The A320/A321 has a robust used market, so the planes will likely end up sold within a year.
 
GianiDC
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:36 pm

I don´t think there is anybody buying Monarch. There isn´t much to buy as the airline doesn´t really exists/fly anymore in contrast to AB. The planes are being returned to the lessor and I read some companies already recruit former Monarch crews.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:39 pm

Nobody.

It was up for sale for a year and nothing happened. The rumours of IAG, easyJet and Wizzair sniffing around only appeared in the days leading to Monarch's demise and clearly weren't serious enough to save the airline.

As of now, not much exists of Monarch, the fleet was leased and is returning to lessors, staff are hopefully finding new jobs at other carriers and pretty much everyone involved as accepted the business is dead.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:43 pm

The conpany is being stripped down and any remaining assets sold off. There is no ongoing airline to purchase.

Very different rules in the UK compared to USA and Germany.

No chapter 11 protections or similar... once you go bust.... that’s it.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:45 pm

Someone might buy Monarch's engineering and maintenance but that's about it. Monarch leased everything. I assume that the slots will be put up for auction as part of the liquidation but I dont think there's anything else that anyone would want.
 
Nickd92
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:47 pm

And where did you get that route map from? 2003?

Monarch are not an asset to buy, unfortunately. Mainly due to the amount of debt that comes with them. I would suggest we let the profitable airlines pick up the remaining assets/slots/capacity.
 
sk736
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:03 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Someone might buy Monarch's engineering and maintenance but that's about it. Monarch leased everything. I assume that the slots will be put up for auction as part of the liquidation but I dont think there's anything else that anyone would want.

Monarch Aircraft Engineering Limited is now a separate company that is not affected by Monarch's collapse and is, therefore, not in need of a buyer.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:32 pm

sk736 wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
Someone might buy Monarch's engineering and maintenance but that's about it. Monarch leased everything. I assume that the slots will be put up for auction as part of the liquidation but I dont think there's anything else that anyone would want.

Monarch Aircraft Engineering Limited is now a separate company that is not affected by Monarch's collapse and is, therefore, not in need of a buyer.


Didn't they close their Manchester engineering hangar last year ?
 
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mikegigs
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:45 pm

Richard28 wrote:
The conpany is being stripped down and any remaining assets sold off. There is no ongoing airline to purchase.

Very different rules in the UK compared to USA and Germany.

No chapter 11 protections or similar... once you go bust.... that’s it.


Exactly... This ship has sunk. There's no bailing anything out now. Air Berlin on the other hand is still in the process of sinking and has found someone (LH) to come and give order to the chaos.

Bits and pieces of Monarch will be sold off, sure. I think their most lucrative former asset are its landing slots. I believe I heard many of their current aircraft were leased so there's no selling them off to the highest bidder, and with so many other 737MAX orders on the books (that airlines likely paid full price for), i don't think Boeing will be desperate to find someone else to pick them up. Not immediately at least.
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smallvoyageur
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:11 pm

As many of the others have said what the administrators would do is start selling off the company first, and then any assets that company has to pay its creditors. This can mean anything, rather like when the retailers Woolworths or BHS went under the company started flogging or auctioning-off anything to get cash, this included the carrier bags and the staff recreation room furniture.

I wouldn't be surprised if any of the other airlines started to grab of the bits and bobs of the company like drinks trolleys, staff uniform or maintenance kit.
 
Jerry123
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:15 pm

keesje wrote:
There's a solid airline for sale.

- A strong leisure driven network from one of Europes biggest markets.
Image

- 35 A320's including everything, pilots, support.
- 737MAX order, although it's unclear who paid what.

I can't imagine Easyjet isn't looking at this.The leisure market is stronger then ever before, Airbus is sold out for years.

Of course drastic reorganization is required. But you can't wait too long though the company is already disintegrating. Who needs an A320 / pilot?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/19/ryanair-offers-pilots-12000-bonus-to-tackle-cancelled-flights-fiasco

The aircraft have gone back to the lessors. The crew and pilots will be snapped up by other airlines.
Not much left of Monarch to buy apart from the name and the debt.
 
mwhcvt
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:22 pm

Trouble is as already mentioned there really isn't all that many tangible assets to buy, the aircraft were all leased and have mostly if not completely been repossessed by the various leasing company's so that they can checked over and put on a new lease ASAP, Monarchs Engineering Side which is profitable and well used especially on 787 contracts for which they currently have with VS, DY, RJ and even some work for BY was spun off by greybull into a separate entity a while ago, this rampart asset stripping is part of the issues that brought down the airline and further more stopped any real interest in purchasing the airline

As most of the remaining assets were intangible such as the staff
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
TheGeordielad
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:44 pm

JannEejit wrote:
sk736 wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
Someone might buy Monarch's engineering and maintenance but that's about it. Monarch leased everything. I assume that the slots will be put up for auction as part of the liquidation but I dont think there's anything else that anyone would want.

Monarch Aircraft Engineering Limited is now a separate company that is not affected by Monarch's collapse and is, therefore, not in need of a buyer.


Didn't they close their Manchester engineering hangar last year ?

It was sold to Jet2.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:51 pm

Richard28 wrote:
The conpany is being stripped down and any remaining assets sold off. There is no ongoing airline to purchase.

Very different rules in the UK compared to USA and Germany.

No chapter 11 protections or similar... once you go bust.... that’s it.

The aircraft are all being re-registered to leasing entities at the moment. Some will get temporary registrations too.

All that remains of ZB are some buildings and ground equipment. That's the picture at the moment. It's just empty offices and a bit of machinery.

How this plays out for the Engineering side is the issue to watch. I have a feeling it was used to secure a loan, and will be spun out soon to a buyer or even retained by Greybum in lieu of a note they hold.
 
mattyfitzg
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:52 pm

Does anybody know what is happening with the aircraft?

So far, all but a couple (G-ZBAH to Victorville, others returned to Air Malta and Pegasus), have remained in the UK/Ireland and still remain in Monarch colours, over a month after they ceased operations. G-ZBAG is even still parked at Manchester.
Does anybody have any insight as to what is happening? Will we see a revival? Will there be a buyout? I'm aware theres nothing to buy other than debt and a name, but surely these aircraft would have been long gone by now?

With my lack of knowledge, this is all odd to me, so any insight would be appreciated :)
 
Kilopond
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:33 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
[...]I assume that the slots will be put up for auction as part of the liquidation but I dont think there's anything else that anyone would want.


Monarch didn't have any attractive sets of slots, neither at Gatwick nor at Manchester nor anywhere else. Their chaotic mingle-mangle of mostly once-weekly slots is back in the pool and anyone can grab them free of charge by applying to www.acl-uk.org .
 
User001
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:50 pm

Kilopond wrote:
Monarch didn't have any attractive sets of slots, neither at Gatwick nor at Manchester nor anywhere else. Their chaotic mingle-mangle of mostly once-weekly slots is back in the pool and anyone can grab them free of charge by applying to http://www.acl-uk.org .


Did you conduct ANY research before constructing that post? Genuine question?

No attractive slots? Really? So 9-10 based aircraft with lovely early departure slots for a start that could easily be flipped around for carriers that prefer longer turns (CX/HU as examples), or other based carriers that want to expand their based offering, at the busiest single runway airport in the world for starters. 9-10 more aircraft stands to help growth? No, your right, nothing attractive there at all.

Once weekly flights? A vast majority of their flights were daily>2 daily, like Malaga, Alicante, Palma, Ibiza and so on.

Slots back in the pool? No they are not, they are still ring fenced and about to go through the courts as to who 'owns' them as we speak. No carriers currently have the right to apply for the LGW/MAN slots, not sure about others as LTN/LBA/BHX are not as slot controlled as the former 2.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:58 pm

mattyfitzg wrote:
Does anybody know what is happening with the aircraft?

So far, all but a couple (G-ZBAH to Victorville, others returned to Air Malta and Pegasus), have remained in the UK/Ireland and still remain in Monarch colours, over a month after they ceased operations. G-ZBAG is even still parked at Manchester.
Does anybody have any insight as to what is happening? Will we see a revival? Will there be a buyout? I'm aware theres nothing to buy other than debt and a name, but surely these aircraft would have been long gone by now?

With my lack of knowledge, this is all odd to me, so any insight would be appreciated :)


These aircraft are now owned by the leasing companies who are seeking for a new airline to lease them out to. Until that happens there's no reason to move them. Eventually the new lessors will come to pick them up.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:21 pm

User001 wrote:
Kilopond wrote:
[...]No attractive slots? Really?[...]


Their slots had been chaotically scattered through the week and through the clock. They didn't have any series of 5, 6 or even 7 weekly slot pairs at ANY airport. Absolutely useless because this kind of slot set is freely available at most airports. With the exception of LHR, LIN, ORY and the likes. But at those points Monarch didn't have even one single slot pail.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:02 am

Slots are not property. Think of them more as a licence. If the holder ceases to function as an airline, then they can only go back to ACL. If the airlines are operative they can be rented or deals struck to transfer them with a cash incentive to do so.

Slots don't carry any monetary value. They are nothing substantial; just that licence from ACL to operate a slot at a certain time and place. The courts will rule soon to that effect as the co-ordinator is the only body with rights here, and they will go back to the pool as the holder has gone under.

That is why BA bought BMI off Lufthansa. They needed BMI to be operational so the business could be folded into BA rather than waiting for it to go bust and the slots going back to ACL. All they really wanted were the slots.
 
User001
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:24 pm

Kilopond wrote:

Their slots had been chaotically scattered through the week and through the clock. They didn't have any series of 5, 6 or even 7 weekly slot pairs at ANY airport.


So how were Monarch running up to 3 daily flights on some routes if they didn't have any slots 'up to 5,6 or 7 weekly'?

Or were they piggy backing their Airbus' on the top of other aircraft landing and taking off at that time?
 
anstar
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:10 pm

User001 wrote:
Kilopond wrote:

Their slots had been chaotically scattered through the week and through the clock. They didn't have any series of 5, 6 or even 7 weekly slot pairs at ANY airport.


So how were Monarch running up to 3 daily flights on some routes if they didn't have any slots 'up to 5,6 or 7 weekly'?

Or were they piggy backing their Airbus' on the top of other aircraft landing and taking off at that time?


You could still do 3 daily flights with odd slots.

First flight could be 6am but on some days its 6:30am and 7am other days.

Second flight could be say 11am on 2 days a week and 3pm on 5 days a week.

Third flight might be 4pm some days and 8pm or 9pm other days.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:26 pm

anstar wrote:
You could still do 3 daily flights with odd slots.[...]


That is exactly how they used to operate. For instance flight ZB220 LGW-PMI had been scheduled 6 times a week on days 12345-7. But using a differnt slot on every single day: 05:45, 06:10, 06:25, 06:40, 08:00 and 08:10.

http://info.flightmapper.net/flight/Mon ... nes_ZB_220
 
mattyfitzg
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:08 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
mattyfitzg wrote:
Does anybody know what is happening with the aircraft?

So far, all but a couple (G-ZBAH to Victorville, others returned to Air Malta and Pegasus), have remained in the UK/Ireland and still remain in Monarch colours, over a month after they ceased operations. G-ZBAG is even still parked at Manchester.
Does anybody have any insight as to what is happening? Will we see a revival? Will there be a buyout? I'm aware theres nothing to buy other than debt and a name, but surely these aircraft would have been long gone by now?

With my lack of knowledge, this is all odd to me, so any insight would be appreciated :)


These aircraft are now owned by the leasing companies who are seeking for a new airline to lease them out to. Until that happens there's no reason to move them. Eventually the new lessors will come to pick them up.



Ah thank you for the insight, now I understand the situation a little better!


G-OZBX positioned Shannon-Birmingham a few nights ago, any ideas why????
 
vfw614
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:23 am

Channex757 wrote:
Slots are not property. Think of them more as a licence. If the holder ceases to function as an airline, then they can only go back to ACL. If the airlines are operative they can be rented or deals struck to transfer them with a cash incentive to do so.

Slots don't carry any monetary value. They are nothing substantial; just that licence from ACL to operate a slot at a certain time and place. The courts will rule soon to that effect as the co-ordinator is the only body with rights here, and they will go back to the pool as the holder has gone under.

That is why BA bought BMI off Lufthansa. They needed BMI to be operational so the business could be folded into BA rather than waiting for it to go bust and the slots going back to ACL. All they really wanted were the slots.


Exactly. That is also why the Lufthansa "take-over" of airberlin was so complicated - what actually happened was that Lufthansa took, amidst massive slot reshuffling within the airberlin-group, over two airberlin subsidiaries (LGW, Niki) that are, in contrast to airberlin, not insolvent to get hold of the slots without being burdened with airberlin's debt and cost structure. Aircraft are being taken over in separate deals from the lessors and airberlin staff are forced to apply for jobs instead of being taken over. That was also the reason why airberlin proper soldiered on until the ink was dry under those deals as otherwise its slot portfolio would have fallen back to the slot co-ordinator,
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:57 am

Kilopond wrote:
anstar wrote:
You could still do 3 daily flights with odd slots.[...]


That is exactly how they used to operate. For instance flight ZB220 LGW-PMI had been scheduled 6 times a week on days 12345-7. But using a differnt slot on every single day: 05:45, 06:10, 06:25, 06:40, 08:00 and 08:10.

http://info.flightmapper.net/flight/Mon ... nes_ZB_220

Please don't shoot me for asking a simple question; but what does it matter if the slots are 06:00 (exactly) x 5 days per week, versus the slight variation you have posted above? I concede that 08:00 & 08:10 are somewhat different, but the three slots around 6am are pretty much the same thing in my eyes. What am I missing?
There are two things that happen when you get old.
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raylee67
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:57 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Kilopond wrote:
anstar wrote:
You could still do 3 daily flights with odd slots.[...]


That is exactly how they used to operate. For instance flight ZB220 LGW-PMI had been scheduled 6 times a week on days 12345-7. But using a differnt slot on every single day: 05:45, 06:10, 06:25, 06:40, 08:00 and 08:10.

http://info.flightmapper.net/flight/Mon ... nes_ZB_220

Please don't shoot me for asking a simple question; but what does it matter if the slots are 06:00 (exactly) x 5 days per week, versus the slight variation you have posted above? I concede that 08:00 & 08:10 are somewhat different, but the three slots around 6am are pretty much the same thing in my eyes. What am I missing?

One thing I can think of is that it complicates operations, and it makes efficient turnaround less possible. It is critical for low cost airlines to turn around their planes as quick as possible at each destination. If the departure time varies from day to day, it would mean that, on some days with earlier departure times, the plane will sit at the next stop much longer. While 10 min may not seem to be a lot, if you think about typical turn around of 35-45 min for a 737 or A320, adding 10 min would be adding 20% to it. Even if the airline finds odd slots for the next flight of the same airplane, the chance is the odd slot would not be odd in the same way, and the operational complications propagate through the system and throughout the day for the particular plane.

For traditional carriers or larger aircraft (such as 777 or A350) which require longer turnaround anyway, the odd slots may not matter too much.
319 320 321 332 333 342 343 345 388 707 717 732 736 73G 738 739 74R 742 743 744 74E 748 757 762 763 772 77E 77L 773 77W D10 M80 135 140 145 175 190 DH1 DH4 CRJ CR7 L10
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Staralexi
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:23 pm

These small slot differences are irrelevant. What does matter about Monarch’s slots at Gatwick is that they enabled Monarch to operate Nine and Nine afternoon departures each day in the summer. Their average block times were around three hours and this means that annual aircraft utilisation was in excess of 4300 hours. This is very good for short haul operations. This is why these slots are valuable if they can be sold. We should hear soon from the high court whether this isn’t possible.
 
mattyfitzg
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:34 pm

Final aircraft G-OZBG departing Manchester tonight at 1900 local time ☹️
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 478
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:54 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Slots are not property. Think of them more as a licence. If the holder ceases to function as an airline, then they can only go back to ACL. If the airlines are operative they can be rented or deals struck to transfer them with a cash incentive to do so.

Slots don't carry any monetary value. They are nothing substantial; just that licence from ACL to operate a slot at a certain time and place. The courts will rule soon to that effect as the co-ordinator is the only body with rights here, and they will go back to the pool as the holder has gone under.

That is why BA bought BMI off Lufthansa. They needed BMI to be operational so the business could be folded into BA rather than waiting for it to go bust and the slots going back to ACL. All they really wanted were the slots.


***********BREAKING NEWS*********
Monarch loses slots battle in High Court
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41913636
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 34
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Re: Looking what happens to Air Berlin, who will buy Monarch?

Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:38 pm

Decision about Monarchs slots has been overturned, which means KPMG will now be able to sell them.
On another note I read that Monarch currently has over 50 employees, including HR staff and pilots? Is this normal?

My very optimistic self is hoping for a return of Monarch, however I know it’s highly unlikely :lol:

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