eamondzhang
Posts: 332
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:44 pm

jmc1975 wrote:
This will finally give LH the necessary 332s to resume FRA-PHX and do something similar to what they did to Condor in SAN.

I don't think LH's taking up any A332s since most of them are leased (and returned to lessors already) while the rest of them is not included in the deal.

Michael
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:27 am

leghorn wrote:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/niki-lauda-zu-air-berlin-frau-merkel-hat-ein-monopol.694.de.html?dram:article_id=398026

Niki Lauda says that Merkel's government created a monopoly and that prices will only go up as a result.


True, but no one seems to care.

We're told governments should not step in and market forces should correct imbalances but that doesn't happen when there is no competition in the market.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
DeltaB717
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:54 am

eamondzhang wrote:
jmc1975 wrote:
This will finally give LH the necessary 332s to resume FRA-PHX and do something similar to what they did to Condor in SAN.

I don't think LH's taking up any A332s since most of them are leased (and returned to lessors already) while the rest of them is not included in the deal.

Michael


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the A332s are going to Malaysia Airlines? They just announced the other day they would be flying ex-AB A332 to AKL, and I swear I read somewhere MH is taking 5x A332.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:00 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
jmc1975 wrote:
This will finally give LH the necessary 332s to resume FRA-PHX and do something similar to what they did to Condor in SAN.

I don't think LH's taking up any A332s since most of them are leased (and returned to lessors already) while the rest of them is not included in the deal.

Michael


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the A332s are going to Malaysia Airlines? They just announced the other day they would be flying ex-AB A332 to AKL, and I swear I read somewhere MH is taking 5x A332.

Correct, and IIRC MH is taking 6x A332 not 5. However AB has/had as many as 17 A332s, so still a lot for storage right now.

Michael
 
DeltaB717
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:43 am

eamondzhang wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:


You're right - it was 6 that I read, not 5. Thanks for clarifying the number still hanging around at AB, I thought all but the 6 must already have left AB.

Cheers
Rowan
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 332
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:47 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:


You're right - it was 6 that I read, not 5. Thanks for clarifying the number still hanging around at AB, I thought all but the 6 must already have left AB.

Cheers
Rowan

Planespotters saying they still have 5 - the number peaked at 17 but after the mass retirements in late last month the number is 5 and I think this will extend till the AB's cessation of ops.

Cheers
Michael
 
speedbird52
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:00 am

Last I checked the A330s are all going to Eurowings
"I have control" Three Words That Could Have Saved Lives.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:48 am

sf260 wrote:
I also think that we should look at EU as one big aviation market. Not just each airport separately. In that respect, Ryanair would also have many quasi monopolies (Weeze, Beauvais, Brussels-Charleroi, Paris-Beauvais, Frankfurt-Hahn, etc)


??? These are low-cost alternatives to larger airports. Using your own logic look at the larger market and not the single airport.

Weeze is an alternative to DUS (AB, EW)
Beauvais is an alternative to CDG & ORY (AF, U2)
Charleroi is an alternative to BRU (SN, TUI)
Hahn is an alternative to FRA (LH)

In what way are these monopolies? LOL
 
konrad
Posts: 483
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:00 am

leghorn wrote:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/niki-lauda-zu-air-berlin-frau-merkel-hat-ein-monopol.694.de.html?dram:article_id=398026

Niki Lauda says that Merkel's government created a monopoly and that prices will only go up as a result.


I couldn't agree more.

This shows how useless are the anti-monopoly laws and agencies supposed to enforce them in the EU and especially in Germany. IMHO and in the first place Lufthansa should not be allowed to own both Swiss and Austrian creating a quasi-monopoly in Germany and in the center of Europe. Now, without Air Berlin, the only competitors are the LCCs which are after just part of the airline business. Practical lesson: if it is good for German business all rules will be bent.
 
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juliuswong
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:07 am

speedbird52 wrote:
Last I checked the A330s are all going to Eurowings

Not really, as some posters here have stated, 6 A332 will be going to MH. Deal was signed few days after airBerlin filed for bankruptcy protection.
 
ei146
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:09 am

rickabone wrote:
Has there been any discussion of what will happen to the international routes? Personally I would like to see BER-SFO and DUS-SFO continue, at least seasonally.


The common understanding seems to be that the longhaul part of Air Berlin will simply die. There was no serious bidder for it, probably because the assets are no that attractive:
-Planes are leased, so if you want them you can get them from the lessor directly.
-Some slots, but compared to the short haul business they are not that important.
-an unfavourable cost structure (different reasons for it but one example are some expensive crew contracts still dating from LTU times. And the wildcat strike of the affected pilots didn't help either.)
But the expectation is that others will fill the void where it seems profitable. LH/EW seems to prepare to fly some routes from DUS and TXL using their own ressources. And Norwegian is mentioned as well, but I don't know if this is more then a rumour.
 
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juliuswong
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:11 am

konrad wrote:
leghorn wrote:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/niki-lauda-zu-air-berlin-frau-merkel-hat-ein-monopol.694.de.html?dram:article_id=398026

Niki Lauda says that Merkel's government created a monopoly and that prices will only go up as a result.


I couldn't agree more.

This shows how useless are the anti-monopoly laws and agencies supposed to enforce them in the EU and especially in Germany. IMHO and in the first place Lufthansa should not be allowed to own both Swiss and Austrian creating a quasi-monopoly in Germany and in the center of Europe. Now, without Air Berlin, the only competitors are the LCCs which are after just part of the airline business. Practical lesson: if it is good for German business all rules will be bent.

One of the many reasons for anti-EU folks to push for EU dismissal. Germany gives them every bullet to do so with many other reasons.

Back in Malaysia, when AK bought into MH uner the guise of helping MH to survive, AK managed to siphoned off the lucrative HND and SYD slot from MH, MH ended up could not deploy A380 on its remaining SYD slots. The share swap deal ended in disastrous manner, both were hit with RM100 million penalty from Competition Commission.
 
bennett123
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:19 am

Apart from LH, what were the viable other bidders?.
 
sf260
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:35 am

NYCVIE wrote:
sf260 wrote:
I also think that we should look at EU as one big aviation market. Not just each airport separately. In that respect, Ryanair would also have many quasi monopolies (Weeze, Beauvais, Brussels-Charleroi, Paris-Beauvais, Frankfurt-Hahn, etc)


??? These are low-cost alternatives to larger airports. Using your own logic look at the larger market and not the single airport.

Weeze is an alternative to DUS (AB, EW)
Beauvais is an alternative to CDG & ORY (AF, U2)
Charleroi is an alternative to BRU (SN, TUI)
Hahn is an alternative to FRA (LH)

In what way are these monopolies? LOL


Thank you for confirming my point, we should indeed not concentrate at the market share of one airline at one single airport. The market is much bigger.
 
PanHAM
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:57 am

bennett123 wrote:
Apart from LH, what were the viable other bidders?.


with the emphasis o "viable" : None. Except U2 and they seem to be shying away from their courage shown

In the evening News last night we had an interview with a "cartel expert". It was amazing to learn how Little that man knew about Commercial aviation. As if the government could force other Airlines on a route like MUC TXL. The Situation is, that any ECAA carrier can serve that route, but no one can force them.

Looking at the pres Releases of LH, they just maintain their current schedules on the existing domestic routes, there will be no routes attached to the remaining19 or so A320. The only Slots attached to aircraft they will take over are those of Niki and LGW
Everything else will be Status quo ante.

Long distance is out completely, which does not Keep LH by way of EW to fly DUS to LAX and RSW next summer, they have the traffic rights with or without AB.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
ei146
Posts: 118
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:00 am

leghorn wrote:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/niki-lauda-zu-air-berlin-frau-merkel-hat-ein-monopol.694.de.html?dram:article_id=398026

Niki Lauda says that Merkel's government created a monopoly and that prices will only go up as a result.


From what I understand an investors group represented by Niki Lauda wanted to make an initial offer but could not convince the creditors and thus was not invited for detailed negotiations. What do you expect him to say? That he likes it?
Also in the same interview he accuses LH group for preparing themselfs for the insolvency of Air Berlin. Every smart businessman constantly looks what the competition does and how he can use that for the advantage of his business and his share holders. That is what he is paid for. They were just doing their job! And if Niki Lauda had done the same maybe he would have come up with a more convincing offer.

You don't need a conspiracy to explain what happened. Each of the players just did what they thought was in their own interest. Some will see a luckier outcome for themself, others will not.

Air Berlin was run into insolvency. An administrator was appointed by court. The administrator according to law has to the following tasks:
-look after the interests of the creditors,
-make sure the interests of ALL creditors (e.g. share holders, credit grantors, employees, customers, suppliers, contractors, ...) are given the appropriate priorities.
-make sure the law is followed in the process
His actions are supervised by the court and the creditors' meeting or a creditors' board appointed by creditors meeting

The adminstrator with the approval of the creditors wanted to keep the business running (at least for a while). This was deemed the only way to preserves any value of the few remaining assets and prevent additional claims. Therefor he asked for DIP financing.
Public-law KfW Bank was more then happy to provide it. It is low risk for the bank because of priority amongst creditors. Politics wanted to prevent a messy bankrupt with all its side effects in the middle of the election campaign, so no problem from that side.

Now the Lufthansa offer was accepted. Not to protect the German market from foreign competition. Not to make Merkel happy. Not to keep Air Berlins planes in the air to produce chemtrails. Politions don't have a say here. It was simply because the administrator and the majority of the creditors considered it the best deal. They don't care about monopolies or to keep an open market. They care about their own money.

You may like the outcome or not but everybody just did his job.

On a side note: I find it interesting how much bigotry and double standards some posters show here. Whatever happens is always one of the following:
-a big conspiracy <-> the forces of the market working
-the creation of a monopoly <-> the long needed market adjustment and consolidation
-politics intervening in a communism like way destroying the open market <-> politics rightful intervening to preserve public interests
And in which way things are seen is only determined by the way they may help or damage the own airline or the competition.
 
leghorn
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:05 am

@ei146; I might agree with you if the Liquidators got a strong price for Air Berlin but they didn't.
This was a stitch up and did you actually read the article in the link.

It was obvious that other parties were only invited to make offers to give the appearance of good practice being followed although the outcome had been decided long before.
 
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Polot
Posts: 7358
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:08 am

ei146 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/niki-lauda-zu-air-berlin-frau-merkel-hat-ein-monopol.694.de.html?dram:article_id=398026

Niki Lauda says that Merkel's government created a monopoly and that prices will only go up as a result.


From what I understand an investors group represented by Niki Lauda wanted to make an initial offer but could not convince the creditors and thus was not invited for detailed negotiations. What do you expect him to say? That he likes it?
Also in the same interview he accuses LH group for preparing themselfs for the insolvency of Air Berlin. Every smart businessman constantly looks what the competition does and how he can use that for the advantage of his business and his share holders. That is what he is paid for. They were just doing their job! And if Niki Lauda had done the same maybe he would have come up with a more convincing offer.

You don't need a conspiracy to explain what happened. Each of the players just did what they thought was in their own interest. Some will see a luckier outcome for themself, others will not.

Air Berlin was run into insolvency. An administrator was appointed by court. The administrator according to law has to the following tasks:
-look after the interests of the creditors,
-make sure the interests of ALL creditors (e.g. share holders, credit grantors, employees, customers, suppliers, contractors, ...) are given the appropriate priorities.
-make sure the law is followed in the process
His actions are supervised by the court and the creditors' meeting or a creditors' board appointed by creditors meeting

The adminstrator with the approval of the creditors wanted to keep the business running (at least for a while). This was deemed the only way to preserves any value of the few remaining assets and prevent additional claims. Therefor he asked for DIP financing.
Public-law KfW Bank was more then happy to provide it. It is low risk for the bank because of priority amongst creditors. Politics wanted to prevent a messy bankrupt with all its side effects in the middle of the election campaign, so no problem from that side.

Now the Lufthansa offer was accepted. Not to protect the German market from foreign competition. Not to make Merkel happy. Not to keep Air Berlins planes in the air to produce chemtrails. Politions don't have a say here. It was simply because the administrator and the majority of the creditors considered it the best deal. They don't care about monopolies or to keep an open market. They care about their own money.

You may like the outcome or not but everybody just did his job.

On a side note: I find it interesting how much bigotry and double standards some posters show here. Whatever happens is always one of the following:
-a big conspiracy <-> the forces of the market working
-the creation of a monopoly <-> the long needed market adjustment and consolidation
-politics intervening in a communism like way destroying the open market <-> politics rightful intervening to preserve public interests
And in which way things are seen is only determined by the way they may help or damage the own airline or the competition.


The thing you are missing is that it’s was all preplanned for LH to take AB since December of last year. Nobody else since then (before AB was officially insolvent/bankrupt) had a legitimate shot at absorbing AB- the Etihad and the German government had already made their decision. The whole idea of AB going to anyone else was just a farce so the German government could try and pretend they were not just handing AB on a silver platter to LH due to the optics of the situation. But election is over so who cares now.
 
leghorn
Posts: 268
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:09 am

bennett123 wrote:
Apart from LH, what were the viable other bidders?.

Lufthansa was only viable in that it allows them to take over planes and some employees by generating super-normal profits on monopoly routes.
replace "viable bidders" with "best outcome" and shutting down the airline and the routes becoming avaialble to everyone on market terms was is and will always be the best outcome.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 6124
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:19 am

Polot wrote:
ei146 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/niki-lauda-zu-air-berlin-frau-merkel-hat-ein-monopol.694.de.html?dram:article_id=398026

Niki Lauda says that Merkel's government created a monopoly and that prices will only go up as a result.


From what I understand an investors group represented by Niki Lauda wanted to make an initial offer but could not convince the creditors and thus was not invited for detailed negotiations. What do you expect him to say? That he likes it?
Also in the same interview he accuses LH group for preparing themselfs for the insolvency of Air Berlin. Every smart businessman constantly looks what the competition does and how he can use that for the advantage of his business and his share holders. That is what he is paid for. They were just doing their job! And if Niki Lauda had done the same maybe he would have come up with a more convincing offer.

You don't need a conspiracy to explain what happened. Each of the players just did what they thought was in their own interest. Some will see a luckier outcome for themself, others will not.

Air Berlin was run into insolvency. An administrator was appointed by court. The administrator according to law has to the following tasks:
-look after the interests of the creditors,
-make sure the interests of ALL creditors (e.g. share holders, credit grantors, employees, customers, suppliers, contractors, ...) are given the appropriate priorities.
-make sure the law is followed in the process
His actions are supervised by the court and the creditors' meeting or a creditors' board appointed by creditors meeting

The adminstrator with the approval of the creditors wanted to keep the business running (at least for a while). This was deemed the only way to preserves any value of the few remaining assets and prevent additional claims. Therefor he asked for DIP financing.
Public-law KfW Bank was more then happy to provide it. It is low risk for the bank because of priority amongst creditors. Politics wanted to prevent a messy bankrupt with all its side effects in the middle of the election campaign, so no problem from that side.

Now the Lufthansa offer was accepted. Not to protect the German market from foreign competition. Not to make Merkel happy. Not to keep Air Berlins planes in the air to produce chemtrails. Politions don't have a say here. It was simply because the administrator and the majority of the creditors considered it the best deal. They don't care about monopolies or to keep an open market. They care about their own money.

You may like the outcome or not but everybody just did his job.

On a side note: I find it interesting how much bigotry and double standards some posters show here. Whatever happens is always one of the following:
-a big conspiracy <-> the forces of the market working
-the creation of a monopoly <-> the long needed market adjustment and consolidation
-politics intervening in a communism like way destroying the open market <-> politics rightful intervening to preserve public interests
And in which way things are seen is only determined by the way they may help or damage the own airline or the competition.


The thing you are missing is that it’s was all preplanned for LH to take AB since December of last year. Nobody else since then (before AB was officially insolvent/bankrupt) had a legitimate shot at absorbing AB- the Etihad and the German government had already made their decision. The whole idea of AB going to anyone else was just a farce so the German government could try and pretend they were not just handing AB on a silver platter to LH due to the optics of the situation. But election is over so who cares now.


How is this different to what happened in USA, when the big airlines merged? There were bankruptcies without the airlines going under, they later merged. How did secondary bidders had a chance there to overtake the bankrupt airlines?

This overtaking of Air Berlin by LH does not produce a monopoly. People should read up on monopoly, it means that competition is banned or non existing. We will see on some inner German flights a reduced competition, yes it will even come to only one airline for direct flights. When LH or EW pushes the prices up to much, we will see competition dropping in and there will be competition through one stop flights.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:28 am

Besides, a monopoly itself doesn't have to be an issue, as long as the giant does not abuse its power in the market.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:29 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
ei146 wrote:

From what I understand an investors group represented by Niki Lauda wanted to make an initial offer but could not convince the creditors and thus was not invited for detailed negotiations. What do you expect him to say? That he likes it?
Also in the same interview he accuses LH group for preparing themselfs for the insolvency of Air Berlin. Every smart businessman constantly looks what the competition does and how he can use that for the advantage of his business and his share holders. That is what he is paid for. They were just doing their job! And if Niki Lauda had done the same maybe he would have come up with a more convincing offer.

You don't need a conspiracy to explain what happened. Each of the players just did what they thought was in their own interest. Some will see a luckier outcome for themself, others will not.

Air Berlin was run into insolvency. An administrator was appointed by court. The administrator according to law has to the following tasks:
-look after the interests of the creditors,
-make sure the interests of ALL creditors (e.g. share holders, credit grantors, employees, customers, suppliers, contractors, ...) are given the appropriate priorities.
-make sure the law is followed in the process
His actions are supervised by the court and the creditors' meeting or a creditors' board appointed by creditors meeting

The adminstrator with the approval of the creditors wanted to keep the business running (at least for a while). This was deemed the only way to preserves any value of the few remaining assets and prevent additional claims. Therefor he asked for DIP financing.
Public-law KfW Bank was more then happy to provide it. It is low risk for the bank because of priority amongst creditors. Politics wanted to prevent a messy bankrupt with all its side effects in the middle of the election campaign, so no problem from that side.

Now the Lufthansa offer was accepted. Not to protect the German market from foreign competition. Not to make Merkel happy. Not to keep Air Berlins planes in the air to produce chemtrails. Politions don't have a say here. It was simply because the administrator and the majority of the creditors considered it the best deal. They don't care about monopolies or to keep an open market. They care about their own money.

You may like the outcome or not but everybody just did his job.

On a side note: I find it interesting how much bigotry and double standards some posters show here. Whatever happens is always one of the following:
-a big conspiracy <-> the forces of the market working
-the creation of a monopoly <-> the long needed market adjustment and consolidation
-politics intervening in a communism like way destroying the open market <-> politics rightful intervening to preserve public interests
And in which way things are seen is only determined by the way they may help or damage the own airline or the competition.


The thing you are missing is that it’s was all preplanned for LH to take AB since December of last year. Nobody else since then (before AB was officially insolvent/bankrupt) had a legitimate shot at absorbing AB- the Etihad and the German government had already made their decision. The whole idea of AB going to anyone else was just a farce so the German government could try and pretend they were not just handing AB on a silver platter to LH due to the optics of the situation. But election is over so who cares now.


How is this different to what happened in USA, when the big airlines merged? There were bankruptcies without the airlines going under, they later merged. How did secondary bidders had a chance there to overtake the bankrupt airlines?

This overtaking of Air Berlin by LH does not produce a monopoly. People should read up on monopoly, it means that competition is banned or non existing. We will see on some inner German flights a reduced competition, yes it will even come to only one airline for direct flights. When LH or EW pushes the prices up to much, we will see competition dropping in and there will be competition through one stop flights.

Creditors and outside parties are allowed to submit plans/takeover attempts during Chap 11 bankruptcy (although iirc the company itself has the first shot at submitting a restricting plan) That is how US attempted to takeover DL in 2007. DL however was able to successfully persuade their creditors to vote against US’s restructuring plan in favor of their own and US’s hostile takeover attempt failed.

The US government never got involved at all with any of the mergers, other than reviewing them for antitrust approval (with possible concessions to get that approval). Everything was planned by the airlines/their creditors however.
Last edited by Polot on Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
HHScot
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:11 pm

Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:36 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Besides, a monopoly itself doesn't have to be an issue, as long as the giant does not abuse its power in the market.

True, but who's looking out for that and what would they do (be able to do) if they did spot potential abuse?
 
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Btblue
Posts: 656
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:57 am

Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:43 am

So reading between the lines here, LH has actually been given an unfair advantage by taking over AB as a result of government interference? That interference being inviting airlines to bid on AB, knowing full well the intention was to offer to LH all along but creating the illusion of an 'open and fair' bidding process as a smokescreen? If this is true surely the regulators and other airlines would be kicking up a fuss?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 6124
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:47 am

HHScot wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Besides, a monopoly itself doesn't have to be an issue, as long as the giant does not abuse its power in the market.

True, but who's looking out for that and what would they do (be able to do) if they did spot potential abuse?


The market. If there will be a lucrative route that LH or EW operates alone, competition will materialize. There is much less power for the airlines in Europe to protect a "fortress hub" than in the USA, you see what happens between LH and FRA in this times.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9368
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:57 am

leghorn wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Apart from LH, what were the viable other bidders?.

Lufthansa was only viable in that it allows them to take over planes and some employees by generating super-normal profits on monopoly routes.
replace "viable bidders" with "best outcome" and shutting down the airline and the routes becoming avaialble to everyone on market terms was is and will always be the best outcome.


Lufthansa is 100% privately owned. The coporate officers are responsible to the owners, not to the government. That is the law in a free Enterprise Country. The Governmen cannot allow the board to buy aircraft, the board has a right to do that once the supervisory board gave their OK. Mrs Merkel has a lot of political inlfuence in the world but she cannot order a CEO or run Germany as a private Enterprise. Germany is not America or Turkey. The onöy Thing where the government was needed that loan That was to Keep AB flying , the alternative would have been grounding. That loan, will be paid back including 1 Million € handling costs and 11% interest. The routes are available to everyone. There is no Monopoly in European aviation, as others have already pointed out. Any ECAA can open routes in any ECAA member country
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
leghorn
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:04 pm

PanHAM wrote:
leghorn wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Apart from LH, what were the viable other bidders?.

Lufthansa was only viable in that it allows them to take over planes and some employees by generating super-normal profits on monopoly routes.
replace "viable bidders" with "best outcome" and shutting down the airline and the routes becoming avaialble to everyone on market terms was is and will always be the best outcome.


Lufthansa is 100% privately owned. The coporate officers are responsible to the owners, not to the government. That is the law in a free Enterprise Country. The Governmen cannot allow the board to buy aircraft, the board has a right to do that once the supervisory board gave their OK. Mrs Merkel has a lot of political inlfuence in the world but she cannot order a CEO or run Germany as a private Enterprise. Germany is not America or Turkey. The onöy Thing where the government was needed that loan That was to Keep AB flying , the alternative would have been grounding. That loan, will be paid back including 1 Million € handling costs and 11% interest. The routes are available to everyone. There is no Monopoly in European aviation, as others have already pointed out. Any ECAA can open routes in any ECAA member country

You know precisely what about the German market? With the takeover of Air Berlin, Lufthansa has an effective monopoly position in the German Speaking world.
If LCCs could have got in to the major German airports they would have but they can't.
If the market was as free and open as you claim they are then the German market would look much more like Italy or the UK.

I expect you to provide a long winded response as to why this isn't true in an attempt to exhaust the time of other posters but truth of the matter is that if one wishes to fly between German cities it is very expensive despite the short flight distances and Lufthansa are earning extremely healthy profits.
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:08 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
How is this different to what happened in USA, when the big airlines merged? There were bankruptcies without the airlines going under, they later merged. How did secondary bidders had a chance there to overtake the bankrupt airlines?

Why is the US being inserted into this conversation? It is no paragon of virtue.

The end result of the US Big 6 becoming the Big 3 has indeed been less consumer choice and much greater profit for the corporations.

mjoelnir wrote:
This overtaking of Air Berlin by LH does not produce a monopoly. People should read up on monopoly, it means that competition is banned or non existing. We will see on some inner German flights a reduced competition, yes it will even come to only one airline for direct flights. When LH or EW pushes the prices up to much, we will see competition dropping in and there will be competition through one stop flights.

No, there are actual monopolies and there are effective monopolies. You don't need to get to zero competition to have a monopoly.

I'm glad you have faith in the power of LH's competitors. I for one do not.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
ei146
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:17 pm

Polot wrote:

The thing you are missing is that it’s was all preplanned for LH to take AB since December of last year. Nobody else since then (before AB was officially insolvent/bankrupt) had a legitimate shot at absorbing AB- the Etihad and the German government had already made their decision. The whole idea of AB going to anyone else was just a farce so the German government could try and pretend they were not just handing AB on a silver platter to LH due to the optics of the situation. But election is over so who cares now.


And what if it was?
What I know for sure is that every investor ever had only one major interest: MORE MONEY. The owners of Air Berlin had a problem: An airline constantly losing money and no way to stop it. It only survived because of money injections from Etihad. If the owners decided a deal with Lufthansa is the best way to stop the losses or even get some money, so be it. Do you really think they would have turned down an offer from someone else to make more money? On the other hand LH group would be stupid not to take advantage of the situation.
Etihad is the largest owner of Air Berlin and probably one of the largest credit grantors. On that side you are right: The Abu Dhabi government owns Etihad. But did you look up the shareholder structure of Lufthansa? Do you really think the German government has any say in the board of directors or in the shareholders meeting?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:33 pm

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
How is this different to what happened in USA, when the big airlines merged? There were bankruptcies without the airlines going under, they later merged. How did secondary bidders had a chance there to overtake the bankrupt airlines?

Why is the US being inserted into this conversation? It is no paragon of virtue.

The end result of the US Big 6 becoming the Big 3 has indeed been less consumer choice and much greater profit for the corporations.


I just compare the situation with the situation in the USA to make a reference. The executor overseeing the demise of Air Berlin is not the German government. The executor, I think it is PLC, has to take the bid giving the most money for the creditors. Many other entities could have foreseen a demise of Air Berlin and prepared a bid, my take is that nobody else was really interested to overbid LH.

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
This overtaking of Air Berlin by LH does not produce a monopoly. People should read up on monopoly, it means that competition is banned or non existing. We will see on some inner German flights a reduced competition, yes it will even come to only one airline for direct flights. When LH or EW pushes the prices up to much, we will see competition dropping in and there will be competition through one stop flights.

No, there are actual monopolies and there are effective monopolies. You don't need to get to zero competition to have a monopoly.

I'm glad you have faith in the power of LH's competitors. I for one do not.


I see how LH reacts to having RyanAir in FRA, nobody can tell me that RyanAir for example is not a serious competition. Nobody can tell me that if RyanAir does see possibilities on an inner German route they will not take it. There is also EasyJet.
If our example would be HAM - STR, there was no direct flight by Air Berlin anyway, only LH or EW. You could go one stop with Air Berlin, but that you can still do with KLM Cityhopper for example. I still think that the biggest competition for cheap inner German flights is rail or Bus, that does not compare time wise to bad to one stop connections.
 
PanHAM
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:13 pm

@Leghorn. I got News for you about the German market - Fraport invited Ryanair recently, they even build a Pier exclusively for LCC atr the yet to build T3. It was FRs choice not to serve the big Airports but theyy have changed their minds and they got what they want. Makes me wonderr that FR did not use some of their Slots for domestic fligths.

The German market IS free and open, not only for aviation. The only obstacle might be the NIMBYs and politics. If BER ever opens as a single Airport with a capping of movements at 360 K, then this might become a severe handicap. But you cannot blame the Airlines for that,
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
leghorn
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:19 pm

I've got news for you.. a plane takes off and hopefully lands. having frankfurt as an airport which you can take off from doesn't guarantee that you can get access to another major airport at which to land.
I have booked a flight with Ryanair from a major German Airport for next march. It is for a route which isn't going to another German airport which is no surprise as they can't get access to those routes.
 
PanHAM
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:24 pm

leghorn wrote:
I've got news for you.. a plane takes off and hopefully lands. having frankfurt as an airport which you can take off from doesn't guarantee that you can get access to another major airport at which to land.
I have booked a flight with Ryanair from a major German Airport for next march. It is for a route which isn't going to another German airport which is no surprise as they can't get access to those routes.


They can if they were serious. They got Slots at MUC for 2 daily fllights from DUB. They could have used These fr FRA as well. FRA to Memmingen would be a super niche route with no competition. Or FRA to HAM/SXF. They are not interested.

good luck for your FR flight in March. Maybe you heard that planes cannot take off without pilots.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
leghorn
Posts: 268
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:36 pm

"They can if they were serious"
you can't just hop in your plane and fly in to some airports without a slot but you have been told this here so many times that I've come to the conclusion that you will not accept this as it totally undermines your lunatic world view.
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:03 pm

leghorn wrote:
@ei146; I might agree with you if the Liquidators got a strong price for Air Berlin but they didn't.
This was a stitch up and did you actually read the article in the link.

It was obvious that other parties were only invited to make offers to give the appearance of good practice being followed although the outcome had been decided long before.


200 millions for practical nothing is a lot imho. AB does not own planes, it does not even own the frequent flyer program any more. The only thing of value are the slots, but they can not be sold, as the default back to the authorities if not used.

leghorn wrote:
I've got news for you.. a plane takes off and hopefully lands. having frankfurt as an airport which you can take off from doesn't guarantee that you can get access to another major airport at which to land.I have booked a flight with Ryanair from a major German Airport for next march. It is for a route which isn't going to another German airport which is no surprise as they can't get access to those routes.


Sure FR could. They could apply for slots as everybody else and if they want to serve a new routes or a route only flown by one competitor they would have decent chances. But FR does also want a special deal with the airport, they want to pay less for ground handling and want reduced fees. They came to FRA once this was granted, as Fraport felt they needed to develop the low cost sector and they had free slots due to the new runway.
Other airports do not have free slots and therefore they have no interest in offering FR a special deal, but without this advantage FR has so far always declined to start flying to those airports.
 
f4f3a
Posts: 339
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:25 pm

Looks like talks continuing with easyjet now luft deal is done ab have resources to work on smaller deal. Although if easy deal doesn't go through could scupper Lufthansa deal because of competition rules
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:30 pm

Polot wrote:
[The whole idea of AB going to anyone else was just a farce so the German government could try and pretend they were not just handing AB on a silver platter to LH due to the optics of the situation. But election is over so who cares now.


total and utter non-sense. The German government doesn´t have a say at all in who the AB shareholders sell their shares to as long as 50% plus 1 share remain in the EU, and even in that case they don´t have a legal option to prevent the sales, the new buyer would just not get ABs traffic rights. IAG or AFKL could have bought AB, but they chose not to.

leghorn wrote:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/niki-lauda-zu-air-berlin-frau-merkel-hat-ein-monopol.694.de.html?dram:article_id=398026

Niki Lauda says that Merkel's government created a monopoly and that prices will only go up as a result.


I guess he has gotten so old that he forgot that "Germany" isn´t a market, but the EU is. Within the EU LH, even with AB, is still nowhere near a market dominating position and every single other EU Airline is free to jump in and try to compete. After the transaction, who will have more Intra-EU monopoly routings, FR or LH?

And of course prices will we an up-tick, after all a competitor dumping tickets for 90ct on the EUR production cost stops to exist.

best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:30 pm

seahawk wrote:
200 millions for practical nothing is a lot imho. AB does not own planes, it does not even own the frequent flyer program any more. The only thing of value are the slots, but they can not be sold, as the default back to the authorities if not used.

And yet, they gladly pay. It says a lot, no?

LH have been elbowing for position since last year so they could shape the deal in their favor.

On Page 1 of this thread it is said LH Group will realize 70M to 90M EUR profit per year from the AB assets, so that 200M will be erased in less than 3 years.

All this facilitated by a quasi-government loan that prevented the slots from ever seeing the open market.

As always, alles ist in Ordnung in Merkel Land.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9368
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:42 pm

leghorn wrote:
"They can if they were serious"
you can't just hop in your plane and fly in to some airports without a slot but you have been told this here so many times that I've come to the conclusion that you will not accept this as it totally undermines your lunatic world view.


Stick your conclusions at a place of your choice. Ryanair got Slots at FRA, earlier this year, they will, Crew availability provided add more flight in wimter and summer 2019 they will have 10aircraft withabout 40 destinations.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
And yet, they gladly pay. It says a lot, no?


Of course, there is no better way to get a lot of planes right now. But then, everybody that would want to use those slots, would need them or cancel a lot of other flights.

LH have been elbowing for position since last year so they could shape the deal in their favor.


Like every other person they could see this coming and prepare accordingly.

All this facilitated by a quasi-government loan that prevented the slots from ever seeing the open market.


The Slots where on the open market, each and every EU Airline could have bought AB and the Slots with it.

Giving bridging loans is common in Europe, if restructuring/sale have a decent chance of success. The load was approved by the EU accordingly. How little lobby power LH has in Germany, despite assumptions to the contrary, is clearly visible by the night curfew in Frankfurt, that even axed flights that would otherwise been gradfathered in.

As always, alles ist in Ordnung in Merkel Land.


Exactly. All done by the book.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
leghorn
Posts: 268
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:55 pm

PanHAM wrote:
leghorn wrote:
"They can if they were serious"
you can't just hop in your plane and fly in to some airports without a slot but you have been told this here so many times that I've come to the conclusion that you will not accept this as it totally undermines your lunatic world view.


Stick your conclusions at a place of your choice. Ryanair got Slots at FRA, earlier this year, they will, Crew availability provided add more flight in wimter and summer 2019 they will have 10aircraft withabout 40 destinations.

Slots at FRA with no slots at the airports the Consumers wish to fly to in Germany means that they and other airlines are just relagated to price sensitive bucket and spade routes for the most part.
Lufthansa gets the cream. You don't want to concede this point although it is obvious to everyone that profitable routes are hard to come by but Lufthansa has sewn them up for itself with much help from German government.
 
WIederling
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:14 pm

TheLion wrote:
That's the third key member to go bankrupt in 7 years. They're not very good at choosing member airlines are they...


don't go overboard with your statements.
neither Malev nor Mexicana were "Key Members" were they?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:25 pm

Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
200 millions for practical nothing is a lot imho. AB does not own planes, it does not even own the frequent flyer program any more. The only thing of value are the slots, but they can not be sold, as the default back to the authorities if not used.

And yet, they gladly pay. It says a lot, no?

LH have been elbowing for position since last year so they could shape the deal in their favor.

On Page 1 of this thread it is said LH Group will realize 70M to 90M EUR profit per year from the AB assets, so that 200M will be erased in less than 3 years.

All this facilitated by a quasi-government loan that prevented the slots from ever seeing the open market.

As always, alles ist in Ordnung in Merkel Land.


What LH hopes to achieve with the purchase has no influence on the value of the purchase itself. The only reason why anybody would invest even one dollar into AB is because you can keep the slots if you do. And it seems other bidders or entities that decided to not even bid, do not see enough value in those slots to overbid LH. And regarding the loan, it seems like it was good solution for the taxpayer. No money spent to charter planes to fly back stranded AB passengers and the loan will be returned with interest. The problem with this deal is that competitors did not compete. If FR or IAG would have offered more, they would have forced LH to either raise their offer or they would have taken over the part LH wanted. And to be honest I bet that FR would not have had any interest in serving a larger network in Germany, because then their crew contracts would definitely fall into focus and that would become very expensive. There are reasons why they do not use the slots at FRA for flights to SXF or HAM and the reason is not missing slots at the destinations.
 
runway23
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:41 pm

seahawk wrote:
There are reasons why they do not use the slots at FRA for flights to SXF or HAM and the reason is not missing slots at the destinations.


So you really believe that FR who has bases in Germany for years now would suddenly attract attention because they start some domestic flights from FRA? Unlikely and they’ve operated domestically also... If someone had something against FR they would have been under fire when they opened their Hahn base and the FRA base should have been enough to annoy LH (and whatever lobby they may have) as much as some potential domestic flights.

Your argument makes little sense and I believe once FR resolves its current problems they will launch some domestic flights if the AB void hasn’t been filled.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
All this facilitated by a quasi-government loan that prevented the slots from ever seeing the open market.


Without the loan, Air Berlin would have collapsed immediately and 8,000 people would have lost their job. I cannot imagine anyone preferring that scenario.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:49 pm

What German airport is slot constrained as it is? FRA passed that with the fourth runway, third parallel. MUC is talking about it but has still slots. The airports in Berlin are full up, OK. But we were talking here about the inner German flights, STR - HAM for example and you will find enough slots.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 6820
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:03 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
All this facilitated by a quasi-government loan that prevented the slots from ever seeing the open market.


Without the loan, Air Berlin would have collapsed immediately and 8,000 people would have lost their job. I cannot imagine anyone preferring that scenario.


Plus they would have gotten somewhat between 30 and 50 million in unemployment benefits over 3 month, not repayable, no interest, and social security would have lost something close to double digit millions in contributions too.
So, return on investment wise not govin the loan would not gave been cost effective.

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
ZEDZAG
Posts: 104
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:16 pm

Why so much fuss about FR, They are another kind of a Gorilla then LH, As sehawk noted, FR always wants special airport deals, thin crew contracts .... And if this is not met then they dont do business. heck FR is an ULCC and people question why FR is not/could not be a competiton to LH.
U2 tried to fight with LH, then tuck their tail, why didnt DY try?
 
PanHAM
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:16 pm

I didn't know that Memmingen is Slot restricted. They must be powered by Baerenmarke

Whatever, FR is not interested in domestic German Services at all, mainly for Crew pay issues. If they don't Change their attitude they will have a lot of Problems, not only in Germany. The rules for self-employment are very strict and Irish law does not apply for Crew based in Germany..
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
LTU330
Posts: 219
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:34 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
All this facilitated by a quasi-government loan that prevented the slots from ever seeing the open market.


Without the loan, Air Berlin would have collapsed immediately and 8,000 people would have lost their job. I cannot imagine anyone preferring that scenario.


Plus they would have gotten somewhat between 30 and 50 million in unemployment benefits over 3 month, not repayable, no interest, and social security would have lost something close to double digit millions in contributions too.
So, return on investment wise not govin the loan would not gave been cost effective.

Best regards
Thomas


.....and don't forget the cost to the German Government to repatriate the many thousands of Passengers who would have been stranded. Look at the cost of the repatriation for Monarch Passengers in the UK.

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