2018 SNA Slot Allocation Released

LAXintl · Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:10 pm

Orange County is out with its annual slot and seat capacity allocation for John Wayne Airport for the 2018 calendar year.

The 2018 daily departure slot allocation and annual passenger capacity allocation for each carrier is as follows:

Alaska - 15 / 1,570.376
American - 18 / 2,059,328
Compass - 5 / 277,400
Delta - 15 / 1,542,700
FedEx - .725 / 0
Frontier - 2 / 267,180
Horizon - 7 / 388,360
Southwest - 42 / 4,455,400
United - 19 / 2,022,202
UPS - .6 / 0
WestJet - 1 / 91,388

Note:
• 7 AS/QX slots shall to be operated by SkyWest
• 7 DL slots shall be operated by Skywest
• 1 UA slots shall be operated by Skywest

This years award again AS/QX and DL a boost in their slot portfolio and passenger allocation authorization primarily at the loss of WN. Overall airlines requested about 2.5mil seat beyond allocation allowance. Though as traditional its likely WN will pick up additional slots during the year as other carriers either not fully utilize their allocations, or return their slots to back to the airport on temporary or permanent basis.

No new entrant air carriers is planned in 2018, though a new commuter carrier Delux Air (JetSuite) was to have commenced service in 2017 with 3 awarded slots. Delux remains the sole new entrant on airports waiting list. SNA states they willing to award them 2018 slots if Delux meets all entry requirements on or before January 1, 2018. If not airport will award additional authorizations to two incumbent air carriers - DL and WN which have pending allocation request.

Lastly, the airport also allocates overnight parking spaces. Authorized 2018 allocation is as follows:
AA – 5
AS – 2
DL – 6
CP – 1
UA – 6
WN - 8

Source: County of Orange Airport Division

msycajun · Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:15 pm

I hope you don't mind, but I copied the 2017 Allocation below for comparison:

Alaska - 16 / 1,619,944
American - 18 / 2,102,080
Compass - 4 / 221,920
Delta - 15 / 1,349,222
FedEx - .7 / 0
Frontier - 2.1 / 277,380
Horizon - 2.4 / 131,784
Southwest - 49 / 5,096,861
United - 19 / 1,985,014
UPS - .6 / 0
Westjet - 1 / 88,140

Note:
• 1 QX slot temporarily returned till August 16, 2017
• 5 AS slots shall to be utilized by SkyWest
• 4 DL slots shall be operated by Skywest effective April 1, 2017
• 1 F9 slot temporarily returned through Nov 2017

OzarkD9S · Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:34 pm

So WN loses another 7 slots next year? No wonder they wanted to get into LGB.

kiowa · Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:44 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
So WN loses another 7 slots next year? No wonder they wanted to get into LGB.

and yet they still have over twice as many slots as anyone else---

Jetmarc · Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:54 pm

I thought JetBlue applied for slots... or is that for 2019?

LAXintl · Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:08 pm

Yes Southwest ends up being the swing slot holder largely because of a complex system of different slot classes and how slots were initially acquired.

Back in 2015 when County amended the airport's access plan they started a transition period through end of 2020 that transitions some supplemental slots which Southwest was largest user of into permanent ones based on a ratio. Per the agreement Southwest gets the lowest reallocation priority of incumbent slots, but in return gets highest priority in reallocation of vacated slots. Its a bit of a good news/bad news story. In the long run WN will end up with fewer slots and seat capacity allocation than 2015, but they will be permanent and not subject to annual reallocation while holding a great opportunity being first in line to rebuild its portfolio if other carriers vacate theirs.

LAXintl · Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:09 pm

Jetmarc wrote:
I thought JetBlue applied for slots... or is that for 2019?

Per County, no air carrier is on the new entrant list besides Delux.

ckfred · Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:48 pm

I'm curious as to why SNA not only limits operations, but the number of seats over the course of a year. Considering that SNA's main runway is too short for widebodies, does it really make much difference if an airline runs 737-700s or A319s versus 737-900s, 757-200s, or A321s?

Having been to Orange County this year, it doesn't seem to me that if AA ran all 752s and A321s versus A319s and 738s would make that much of a difference on any given day. An extra 15 or 20 people on a flight, times 18 flights, doesn't seem to put that much of a strain on traffic flow in the terminal.

airliner371 · Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:53 pm

ckfred wrote:
An extra 15 or 20 people on a flight, times 18 flights, doesn't seem to put that much of a strain on traffic flow in the terminal.

Well the restrictions aren't because of constrained space, rather, NIMBYs.

LAXintl · Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:57 pm

ckfred wrote:
I'm curious as to why SNA not only limits operations, but the number of seats over the course of a year.

The airport has a maximum annual passenger cap - 10.8mil, so they allow about ~12.5mil seats annually.

golfradio · Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:02 pm

I was hoping for a restart of YYZ -SNA by Rouge. Maybe after AC gets the CS-300 :crossfingers:

wnflyguy · Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:08 pm

I going to predict WN drops SNA-SFO and SNA-SJD with this further slot pulling from them.

Flyguy

diverdave · Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 pm

LAXintl wrote:
ckfred wrote:
I'm curious as to why SNA not only limits operations, but the number of seats over the course of a year.

The airport has a maximum annual passenger cap - 10.8mil, so they allow about ~12.5mil seats annually.

Exactly. There are settlements going back to 1985. The latest runs through 2030.

http://www.ocair.com/newsroom/facts/?fa ... -agreement

David

LAXintl - thanks for starting this thread.

mikegigs · Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:38 pm

Surprised DL has so many RON spots compared to how many slots they have versus other airlines slots (WN has three times the slots and only two more RON parking spots).

Thanks for gathering this data!

ckfred · Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:00 pm

Ah, the NIMBY crowd. Never mind the fact that MacArthur Blvd. would be a main thoroughfare without the airport, or that I-405 is about 3 minutes from the airport.

ucdtim17 · Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:37 pm

So 4.6 new slots for QX. Will they actually be able to use these? They could add OAK and SMF if they have the planes and crews

redrooster3 · Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:43 pm

What is the biggest gate in SNA?

mercure1 · Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:56 pm

The freighter operators bring in A300/B763s so its not that small

MrBretz · Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:01 am

As far as NIMBY, SNA was not a commercial airport until the late 1960s. Now there are 200 commercial jets plus business jets daily. And those homes in Balboa Island were there in the 1960s. Oh sure, they have been remodeled and upgraded but they were almost all there in the 1960s. My mother's old house in Orange was at a spot the planes would often turn over to line up with the runway. And those were not generally the flight from the East. So that really wasn't a problem. But there was not a single flight over the house when I was a kid. To me, the new, bigger player in the area is the jet traffic to/from the airport. Most houses have been there for a long time. So, I don't buy NIMBY. As much as I like seeing planes take off and land, I am happy the noise is way away from my current residence.

flyfresno · Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:10 am

AS in the E175? Could we see a FAT slot?

FlyHappy · Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:11 am

MrBretz wrote:
As far as NIMBY, SNA was not a commercial airport until the late 1960s. Now there are 200 commercial jets plus business jets daily. And those homes in Balboa Island were there in the 1960s. Oh sure, they have been remodeled and upgraded but they were almost all there in the 1960s. My mother's old house in Orange was at a spot the planes would often turn over to line up with the runway. And those were not generally the flight from the East. So that really wasn't a problem. But there was not a single flight over the house when I was a kid. To me, the new, bigger player in the area is the jet traffic to/from the airport. Most houses have been there for a long time. So, I don't buy NIMBY. As much as I like seeing planes take off and land, I am happy the noise is way away from my current residence.

hey, to be fair - I don't think NIMBY really has anything inherently to do with who predates who (homes vs airport).
NIMBY is NIMBY. people don't want aircraft noise, that's understandable... but its still NIMBY.

LAXintl · Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:17 am

redrooster3 wrote:
What is the biggest gate in SNA?

2 gates were designed to accept 762.

flymco753 · Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:36 am

How does DL's slots compared to what they have now?

727200 · Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:12 am

Who is SW paying off? They have more than double the amount of the majors just like last year. Something fishy going on here.

PlanesNTrains · Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:27 am

727200 wrote:
Who is SW paying off? They have more than double the amount of the majors just like last year. Something fishy going on here.

1. WN?
2. They have less slots than in the past.
3. Something fishy going on?

Maybe it's late....

LAXintl · Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:57 pm

WN keeps losing slots. They peaked at 55 in 2015 before the updated community settlement agreement and transition to an updated slot allocation process.

SurfandSnow · Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:08 pm

I'm guessing B6 has to wait for the neo before it can serve SNA. HA would probably love to serve this airport but even with the A321neo still does not have any plane that can viably do so? Still no service from a Mexican carrier either, though we may have to wait for a new president for that to happen now.

As for the existing carriers, looks like F9 is still committed to the airport. DL has just added DTW, LAS and SEA - and still wants to add more service? Do their 73Gs have ETOPS? Maybe they just want to give JFK-SNA another try? On the other hand, AS and its regional partners have all kinds of opportunities. Ultimately, I could see them trying anything from trunk routes like OAK and SMF to niche routes like AUS, BOI, EUG, FAT, GEG, HDN, MCI, MKE, MMH, MRY, SAT, STL, TUS, etc. Looks like WN will have to cut service once again - if so, it will be interesting to see if they simply cull redundant frequencies or cut more routes altogether.

LAXintl · Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:50 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Still no service from a Mexican carrier either, though we may have to wait for a new president for that to happen now.

Remember Interjet served SNA while the airport had an incentive program for Mexico flights, but now has moved its ops to LAX instead.

Similarly, SNA has tried hard to lure Volaris, but without return interest preferring also to primarily focus on LAX.

SurfandSnow wrote:
Do their 73Gs have ETOPS?

No.

Narfish641 · Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:17 am

ckfred wrote:
I'm curious as to why SNA not only limits operations, but the number of seats over the course of a year. Considering that SNA's main runway is too short for widebodies, does it really make much difference if an airline runs 737-700s or A319s versus 737-900s, 757-200s, or A321s?

Having been to Orange County this year, it doesn't seem to me that if AA ran all 752s and A321s versus A319s and 738s would make that much of a difference on any given day. An extra 15 or 20 people on a flight, times 18 flights, doesn't seem to put that much of a strain on traffic flow in the terminal.

Delta uses their 757-200 on the long distance routes like from ATL.

CobaltScar · Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:08 am

B6 announced they were putting in for slots here, what happened? Not awarded or b6 said never mind?

wnflyguy · Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:26 am

CobaltScar wrote:
B6 announced they were putting in for slots here, what happened? Not awarded or b6 said never mind?

B6 planned for possible adding SNA service pending that it was most likely going to win the VX bid.
SNA would have been used as a possible feeder flights to a combined Merger SFO JetBlue gateway.
But once B6 lost it's bid for VX to AS they pulled the request for SNA service.
They are also in the process of adding additional seats back to the A320's again making it a horrible for any Eastcoast long hauls out of SNA because of runway W&B restrictions.

I think for the next year or two their going to keep LGB as it's Orange County airport.

Flyguy

flyfresno · Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:11 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
I'm guessing B6 has to wait for the neo before it can serve SNA. HA would probably love to serve this airport but even with the A321neo still does not have any plane that can viably do so? Still no service from a Mexican carrier either, though we may have to wait for a new president for that to happen now.

As for the existing carriers, looks like F9 is still committed to the airport. DL has just added DTW, LAS and SEA - and still wants to add more service? Do their 73Gs have ETOPS? Maybe they just want to give JFK-SNA another try? On the other hand, AS and its regional partners have all kinds of opportunities. Ultimately, I could see them trying anything from trunk routes like OAK and SMF to niche routes like AUS, BOI, EUG, FAT, GEG, HDN, MCI, MKE, MMH, MRY, SAT, STL, TUS, etc. Looks like WN will have to cut service once again - if so, it will be interesting to see if they simply cull redundant frequencies or cut more routes altogether.

SMF-FAT would fail horribly, even with all the new connection opportunities there. It's only a 3 hour drive from downtown Fresno to the capitol, flying could actually take MORE time than that, and certainly wouldn't save a lot, when you factor in getting to/from the airports and checking in. Plus, there's always the train, which only takes 3:30. So there would be almost zero O&D.

WN732 · Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:55 pm

flyfresno wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
I'm guessing B6 has to wait for the neo before it can serve SNA. HA would probably love to serve this airport but even with the A321neo still does not have any plane that can viably do so? Still no service from a Mexican carrier either, though we may have to wait for a new president for that to happen now.

As for the existing carriers, looks like F9 is still committed to the airport. DL has just added DTW, LAS and SEA - and still wants to add more service? Do their 73Gs have ETOPS? Maybe they just want to give JFK-SNA another try? On the other hand, AS and its regional partners have all kinds of opportunities. Ultimately, I could see them trying anything from trunk routes like OAK and SMF to niche routes like AUS, BOI, EUG, FAT, GEG, HDN, MCI, MKE, MMH, MRY, SAT, STL, TUS, etc. Looks like WN will have to cut service once again - if so, it will be interesting to see if they simply cull redundant frequencies or cut more routes altogether.

SMF-FAT would fail horribly, even with all the new connection opportunities there. It's only a 3 hour drive from downtown Fresno to the capitol, flying could actually take MORE time than that, and certainly wouldn't save a lot, when you factor in getting to/from the airports and checking in. Plus, there's always the train, which only takes 3:30. So there would be almost zero O&D.

Well, the San Joaquin is prone to some pretty horrible delays though. We had a 6 hour run due to train congestion on that route.

BGS91762 · Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:54 pm

LAXintl wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Still no service from a Mexican carrier either, though we may have to wait for a new president for that to happen now.

Remember Interjet served SNA while the airport had an incentive program for Mexico flights, but now has moved its ops to LAX instead.

Similarly, SNA has tried hard to lure Volaris, but without return interest preferring also to primarily focus on LAX.

SurfandSnow wrote:
Do their 73Gs have ETOPS?

Volaris seems to also doing well at ONT with flights to GDL and BJX with MEX coming next year. Seems like international carriers will always concentrate at LAX and increasingly ONT in the LA area.

No.

BGS91762 · Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:54 pm

LAXintl wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Still no service from a Mexican carrier either, though we may have to wait for a new president for that to happen now.

Remember Interjet served SNA while the airport had an incentive program for Mexico flights, but now has moved its ops to LAX instead.

Similarly, SNA has tried hard to lure Volaris, but without return interest preferring also to primarily focus on LAX.

SurfandSnow wrote:
Do their 73Gs have ETOPS?

Volaris seems to also doing well at ONT with flights to GDL and BJX with MEX coming next year. Seems like international carriers will always concentrate at LAX and increasingly ONT in the LA area.

No.

EXMEMWIDGET · Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:51 pm

I see that FedEx(.725) and UPS(.6) have less than one slot per day. Exactly how does that work?

wnflyguy · Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:58 pm

EXMEMWIDGET wrote:
I see that FedEx(.725) and UPS(.6) have less than one slot per day. Exactly how does that work?

No ops on Sunday
Flyguy

LAXintl · Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:56 pm

Media picked up news of more WN cuts at the airport.

Southwest Could See More JWA Cuts
http://www.ocbj.com/news/2017/oct/16/so ... -jwa-cuts/

WN732 · Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:03 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Media picked up news of more WN cuts at the airport.

Southwest Could See More JWA Cuts
http://www.ocbj.com/news/2017/oct/16/so ... -jwa-cuts/

I'm not sure why they feel that they need to screw the largest operator out of slots.

FermiParadox · Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:31 pm

WN732 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Media picked up news of more WN cuts at the airport.

Southwest Could See More JWA Cuts
http://www.ocbj.com/news/2017/oct/16/so ... -jwa-cuts/

I'm not sure why they feel that they need to screw the largest operator out of slots.

I'm not sure why WN felt they needed to screw the largest operator out of slots in LGA, DCA, EWR, but here we are.

WN732 · Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:51 pm

FermiParadox wrote:
WN732 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Media picked up news of more WN cuts at the airport.

Southwest Could See More JWA Cuts
http://www.ocbj.com/news/2017/oct/16/so ... -jwa-cuts/

I'm not sure why they feel that they need to screw the largest operator out of slots.

I'm not sure why WN felt they needed to screw the largest operator out of slots in LGA, DCA, EWR, but here we are.

That's not true at all. They paid to have those slots. This was also part of AA's merger agreement, and the demise of ATA back in 2008. The Port Authority did not wake up one day and decide to revoke slots and give them to other airlines. All other airlines had the option of buying those slots, but WN wanted them the most. So no, WN has not "screwed" anyone. EWR does not even have slots anymore so everyone has equal opportunity there.

SANFan · Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:03 pm

msycajun wrote:
I hope you don't mind, but I copied the 2017 Allocation below for comparison:
Alaska - 16
Note:
• 1 QX slot temporarily returned till August 16, 2017
• 5 AS slots shall to be utilized by SkyWest

I'm confused.

Assuming these numbers are correct (and I have no reason to doubt them), I just created a turn schedule for AAG for SNA effective Nov 5, 2017 and found the following counts of AAG's 21 flight total:

>AS mainline flights: 11
>QX flights: 3
>OO flights: 7
(for a slot total of 21.)

Does SNA really care about the actual breakdown of the 21 slots? (IMO, it looks like they don't.) Does the "Alaska" total of 16 listed in the referenced post by definition include QX? OO flights total 7, not the 5 mentioned in the referenced post.

This is not a big deal but I'd like to understand exactly how this very restricted airport slot allotment program works for a carrier such as AAG. (I will do the same for 2018 when I'm sure there is a correct and finalized schedule in place, using the 2018 numbers posted by the OP.)

bb

FermiParadox · Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:43 pm

WN732 wrote:
FermiParadox wrote:
WN732 wrote:

I'm not sure why they feel that they need to screw the largest operator out of slots.

I'm not sure why WN felt they needed to screw the largest operator out of slots in LGA, DCA, EWR, but here we are.

That's not true at all. They paid to have those slots. This was also part of AA's merger agreement, and the demise of ATA back in 2008. The Port Authority did not wake up one day and decide to revoke slots and give them to other airlines. All other airlines had the option of buying those slots, but WN wanted them the most. So no, WN has not "screwed" anyone. EWR does not even have slots anymore so everyone has equal opportunity there.

Given your username, I know you're probably not willing to be impartial here, but WN is probably the worst offender of "Whine about not getting access to slots when you don't serve an airport, but shut off everyone else from getting them when you do" (I.e. DAL). In fact, I'd venture to say that WN was lobbying the DOJ pretty hard over the divestment. Why on earth would AA have to divest DAL of all places?

It's all just business, and that holds true for what's happening in SNA. The airport is providing slots as they see fit for their business needs.

LAXintl · Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:21 pm

WN732 wrote:
I'm not sure why they feel that they need to screw the largest operator out of slots.

In reality, SWA is gaining permanent departure authorizations at SNA, and will benefit in the long term.

The 2015 slot reallocation process will convert most of SWAs supplemental slot into permanent slots not subject to reallocation based on an agreed-upon ratio. For example back in 2010 SWA only had 7 permanent departure authorizations at SNA while now in 2018 it will be up to 18.
Eventually, much of SWA departure portfolio ~30 flights will use permanent slots, and the carrier will have a firmer footing and not be as subject to potentially having departure authorizations removed from year to year.

SANFan wrote:
I'm confused.

Assuming these numbers are correct (and I have no reason to doubt them), I just created a turn schedule for AAG for SNA effective Nov 5, 2017 and found the following counts of AAG's 21 flight total:

>AS mainline flights: 11
>QX flights: 3
>OO flights: 7
(for a slot total of 21.)

Does SNA really care about the actual breakdown of the 21 slots? (IMO, it looks like they don't.) Does the "Alaska" total of 16 listed in the referenced post by definition include QX? OO flights total 7, not the 5 mentioned in the referenced post.

This is not a big deal but I'd like to understand exactly how this very restricted airport slot allotment program works for a carrier such as AAG. (I will do the same for 2018 when I'm sure there is a correct and finalized schedule in place, using the 2018 numbers posted by the OP.)

bb

SNA strictly enforces the number of departure authorizations. But remember the airport's allocation is merely an annual snap shot taken on a certain date.

Airlines feel competitive pressures, see shifts in demand, have fleet issues, etc and must adjust schedules. As such airlines return slots to the airport pool, or borrow slots for short periods. To this end the airport even carries out a mid-year reallocation process in May/June to better reflect what airlines are really doing and carriers like SWA will often able pick up additional departure authorizations to be used for the remainder of the year.

Jshank83 · Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:24 pm

Apparently SW is running STL-SNA over Christmas to New Years. MCI also added. STL is Dec 23-25 and 30,31. MCI is 24,25, and 31st. Didn't really see that coming.

wnflyguy · Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:06 pm

So hearing from Friends at SNA sound like AS is swapping SJD and PVR to Skywest from AS main line. AS/Skywest sounds like there adding 1 EUG,1 TUS and 1 BOI.

Rumored Skywest aircraft routes
BOI-SNA-SJD/PVR-SNA-BOI
TUS-SNA-EUG-SNA-RNO-SNA-TUS
ABQ-SNA-STS-SEA-STS-SNA-ABQ
Flyguy

PlanesNTrains · Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:30 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
So hearing from Friends at SNA sound like AS is swapping SJD and PVR to Skywest from AS main line. AS/Skywest sounds like there adding 1 EUG,1 TUS and 1 BOI.

Rumored Skywest aircraft routes
BOI-SNA-SJD/PVR-SNA-BOI
TUS-SNA-EUG-SNA-RNO-SNA-TUS
ABQ-SNA-STS-SEA-STS-SNA-ABQ
Flyguy

Love the EUG-SNA flight. Wasn't aware of ABQ-SNA but it's hard to keep up these days.

Bazooka · Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:54 pm

We need a SNA - HNL flight...SOUTHWEST?

slcdeltarumd11 · Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:45 pm

I feel like delta applies every opportun at lgb and sna. They seem more concerned of keeping the slots out of others hands.

wnflyguy · Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:05 pm

Bazooka wrote:
We need a SNA - HNL flight...SOUTHWEST?

Unless the MAX8 or MAX7 has great short field performance I don’t think you will ever see SNA-Hawaii from anyone ever again.

Flyguy

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