With all the recent TATL announcements to Smaller/middle sized cities that would have not been expected before how come has HAM not received any new TATL announcements with it being a high yielding market?

Maybe the assertion that HAM is a high yielding market is misplaced, especially when looking at TATL traffic.

Airlines don’t tend to stay away from markets that have strong opportunities to make a profit, which seems to indicate that they see stronger options on the table at this stage.

It is also population wise a big market, 5 million metro. I think historically, on the US side, DL and CO both served it maybe even NW way back. Given that it's size it is interesting that it has so little trans Atlantic service. With UA only doing seasonal service to Newark. With Air Berlin going bankrupt and other looking to fill the Berlin/Dusseldort void, I doubt that this will change. It really is a curious case and could be an interesting thread.

United used to fly between Newark and Hamburg, but the route was shut down. It seems Hamburg isn't as high-yielding as some people think. However, a while ago there was talk about Norwegian starting TATL flights out of Hamburg. If you ask me, Norwegian is just the airline for long haul flights in low-yielding markets.

I think it has something to do with mentality and changing habits and close proximity to a major hub. Hamburg residents are used to getting on a fast train and making for FRA where they have the world of options in terms of flights. No doubt there is a big population with plenty of industry. But the predominant carrier flies no long haul out of HAM to my knowledge so life goes on as usual. I suppose it also has to do with the diversity of industry in Hamburg and the multiple destinations they need to access. Easier through FRA.

Was the 5th freedom EK fliht mentioned? HAM has plenty of one stop Services to the US via FRA MUC AMS CPH LHR, CDG and that kist is not complete. With a further stop in the US the whole Country is covered.

This topic has been discussed numerous times here. CO was in the market long before the merger. The route was upgraded to a 767 from the 757.
As we know, many old CO 757 routes have fallen away: BRS, OSL, CGN, BFS, CPH, etc.
HAM survived but for whatever reason, UA only flies the route for 5 months a year now. They could revert to the 757, but aren't doing that either.
I can't explain why. I am just giving the facts.
UA/CO has been there forever, and DL doesn't appear very interested.

Perhaps the reason UA does not want to fly it year round is the absence of strong business links between the Hamburg region and the US? (I am not stating there is/is not, I am asking a question). Plenty of cruise ships depart Hamburg so I believe the seasonal approach here is designed to serve that market, not the business one. How big is Air Berlin in the HAM market? With the airline shutting down, and its assets likely taken over largely by LH and Easy Jet, its unlikely that either of these two companies plan to commit resources to HAM for long haul routes. My guess is that HAM can and will continue to be served via FRA and MUC largely (* A strategy).

I believe you'll see Air Canada rouge from YYZ at some point. Beyond that Norwegian is probably where the growth will come from.

Air Berlin never was a big player in Hamburg. So far they only got one route left, to Dusseldorf which is their largest hub. Lufthansa isn't big in Hamburg either with only routes to their bases in Frankfurt and Munich. EuroWings does have a lot of destinations from Hamburg, but only short/medium haul and nothing TATL.

Of course there's the port of Hamburg which creates some demand, both from cruise ship passengers as from sailors. However, since this demand is spread in almost every direction you can't focus on one long-haul route. For most of those people that route will not take them where they need to be. Better let the airport be served by network carriers from the region that can connect people to their destinations.

Germany is interesting, what other country does not have true international hubs in it's two largest cities(Berlin and Hamburg). I know the reasons for Berlin are probably largely political. Hamburg is I guess just that Frankfurt and Munich developed as the hubs for LH and there has really never been a strong secondary International airline in Germany.

I flew CO back in the day. It wasn't the best premium experience for BF customers. They had the whole flight shoved in a little room with its own secondary security, isolated from all concessions. A concierge boarded me personally which was nice, but hardly a "high yield" experience, especially for those paying a premium price to fly coach.

I did enjoy the TATL 757 flight in BF. Small cabin of 15 seats (1 seat was reserved for crew) made it feel like true international F.

bfitzflyer wrote:

Germany is interesting, what other country does not have true international hubs in it's two largest cities(Berlin and Hamburg). I know the reasons for Berlin are probably largely political. Hamburg is I guess just that Frankfurt and Munich developed as the hubs for LH and there has really never been a strong secondary International airline in Germany.

politics and geography. Fra is in the middle, muc serves Bavaria. Ham would arrive late to the party as is ber.

Hamburg residents are used to getting on a fast train and making for FRA where they have the world of options in terms of flights.

Not really... why would you take a 4hr "fast" train when you have a LH hourly shuttle running between both? Hamburg residents however, have been "educated" by LH over decades to fly to FRA first, before flying somewhere else.

bfitzflyer wrote:

Germany is interesting, what other country does not have true international hubs in it's two largest cities(Berlin and Hamburg). I know the reasons for Berlin are probably largely political. Hamburg is I guess just that Frankfurt and Munich developed as the hubs for LH and there has really never been a strong secondary International airline in Germany.

Up until 27 years ago, Germany was divided. TXL and THF were dead end streets. HAM lost a part of it's Hinterland and FRA is not only near the demographic and geographic Center of Germany but also was close enough to the government centre in Bonn.
Germany always was and still is polycentric.
MUC is the most modern hub and a Chance for LH to grab. MUC does not only serve Bavaria but also southern Europe and LH even routes international passengers originating in HAM HAJ BRE etcvia MUC. But only a few years ago MUC advanced to a Primary hub, equal with FRA

klwright69 wrote:

This topic has been discussed numerous times here. CO was in the market long before the merger. The route was upgraded to a 767 from the 757.
As we know, many old CO 757 routes have fallen away: BRS, OSL, CGN, BFS, CPH, etc.
HAM survived but for whatever reason, UA only flies the route for 5 months a year now. They could revert to the 757, but aren't doing that either.
I can't explain why. I am just giving the facts.
UA/CO has been there forever, and DL doesn't appear very interested.

HAM-EWR is a long route for a 757 in winter, just a little bit shorter than TXL-EWR and ARN-JFK. There were many diversions in winter due to strong headwinds, some important companys using this route regularily complained about this, so United finally decided to switch to the 767. Planes are booked pretty good, also there is a lot of cargo demand from Hamburg, which a 767 can take a lot more advantage from than a 757.

However there seems to be a problem in the cold months; the 757 maybe still was profitable in the worst months January and February. Seems there is not enough demand for the 767. What I dont untderstand is why they axe the route all the way from early October to early May, flying only 5 months.
When the 757 still flew, they reduced to 5 weekly in winter, some years 6 weekly. But from early March already they ramped up to a daily flight again, reducing from daily in late October or even early November.
So they could fly seasonal from early March to mid October, flights would be booked great in this period too in my optinion. Even better from March to early January, a lot of traffic at Christmas and New Years. I also dont understand why they wouldnt try 3 weekly flights in winter before cutting the whole thing. Maybe it has to do with some operational stuff, the aircraft used elsewere on a winter only seasonal route?

About earlier flights from the US to HAM: there were:

PA MIA-JFK-HAM
NW MSP-LGW-HAM and EWR-CPH-HAM
AA JFK-BRU-HAM
DL ATL-HAM, JFK-HAM on various routings
LH HAM-EWR, HAM-MIA, HAM-JFK
LTU HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA
Last but not least EK DXB-HAM-JFK

I am sure I forgot a few.

In my opinion DL would be sucessful on a ATL-HAM flight, AA could be sucessful trying ORD-HAM. Also norwegian could give it a try: JFK, LAX, MIA are all promising from HAM.

DUS will be losing all 4 of its Air Berlin TATL routes later this month. Despite Hamburg being the second largest city in Germany, DUS is in Germany's largest metro (Rhine-Ruhr) region with greater business demand for international travel.

So when did EK's fifth freedom to JFK end? I thought this was a cool route with EK's sponsorship of the local football club. Here is some context when the route was announced in 2006 from "Emirates launched Dubai-Hamburg flights only last month (March) so this move next autumn (when the existing A330 is switched to a larger B777) means a service upgrade. Hamburg is one of Germany’s wealthiest cities and the airport’s catchment area covers Northern Germany, Berlin and areas of Denmark. Yet it is poorly served by long distance flights. Lufthansa, for example, hasn’t a single long haul flight from Hamburg. As a result, passengers seeking to reach the outside world invariably have to change planes at another hub. Emirates is expected to price keenly in all classes and will operate a wide-bodied B777 which has more passenger appeal than Continental’s narrow-bodied B757."

Not that they're a true TATL service, but FI 4x weekly to KEF is de facto a link to N-America (kind of the same as ME3 service in the other direction), linking 20+ destinations in the US and Canada to its European destinations.

DLHAM wrote:

klwright69 wrote:

This topic has been discussed numerous times here. CO was in the market long before the merger. The route was upgraded to a 767 from the 757.
As we know, many old CO 757 routes have fallen away: BRS, OSL, CGN, BFS, CPH, etc.
HAM survived but for whatever reason, UA only flies the route for 5 months a year now. They could revert to the 757, but aren't doing that either.
I can't explain why. I am just giving the facts.
UA/CO has been there forever, and DL doesn't appear very interested.

HAM-EWR is a long route for a 757 in winter, just a little bit shorter than TXL-EWR and ARN-JFK. There were many diversions in winter due to strong headwinds, some important companys using this route regularily complained about this, so United finally decided to switch to the 767. Planes are booked pretty good, also there is a lot of cargo demand from Hamburg, which a 767 can take a lot more advantage from than a 757.

However there seems to be a problem in the cold months; the 757 maybe still was profitable in the worst months January and February. Seems there is not enough demand for the 767. What I dont untderstand is why they axe the route all the way from early October to early May, flying only 5 months.
When the 757 still flew, they reduced to 5 weekly in winter, some years 6 weekly. But from early March already they ramped up to a daily flight again, reducing from daily in late October or even early November.
So they could fly seasonal from early March to mid October, flights would be booked great in this period too in my optinion. Even better from March to early January, a lot of traffic at Christmas and New Years. I also dont understand why they wouldnt try 3 weekly flights in winter before cutting the whole thing. Maybe it has to do with some operational stuff, the aircraft used elsewere on a winter only seasonal route?

About earlier flights from the US to HAM: there were:

PA MIA-JFK-HAM
NW MSP-LGW-HAM and EWR-CPH-HAM
AA JFK-BRU-HAM
DL ATL-HAM, JFK-HAM on various routings
LH HAM-EWR, HAM-MIA, HAM-JFK
LTU HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA
Last but not least EK DXB-HAM-JFK

I am sure I forgot a few.

In my opinion DL would be sucessful on a ATL-HAM flight, AA could be sucessful trying ORD-HAM. Also norwegian could give it a try: JFK, LAX, MIA are all promising from HAM.

DL to ATL, and AC Rouge to YYZ seem logical. If ORD gets HAM, it would be on LH or UA. AA is weak in Germany, heck they can’t make ORD-FRA route Work (Star owns ORD-Germany).

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Air Berlin never was a big player in Hamburg.

Close to 40 flights a day is not a big player? This was around 2009-2012. Then the shrink of airberlin started. Now almost nothing is left. Too bad they never tried longhaul from HAM, just to stay on topic. MIA and BKK would have worked fantastic.

Regarding AC Rouge to YYZ: would be great. There were three canadian Airlines already serving Hamburg. Last was Air Transat, they flew YYZ-HAM seasonal for 6 years (2005-2011). First one or two years once a week, then they extended to twice a week.

As they cancelled the route newspapers wrote its because of the A310 retirement and the A330 would offer too much capacity. Strange that they still fly the A310 today. Load Factor was north of 90% most times.

The argument, because there are no TATL connections from HAM is proof that there is no business to make for an airline is a bit self serving. Airlines have certain policies and that often decides what they do rather than the plain business case.
LH decided to serve HAM via its hubs FRA and MUC. As long as no other airline starts direct flights from HAM LH will not even look at, if direct flights from HAM make money.

By itself HAM should have a strong market. The Hamburg Metropolitan region has 5.1 million inhabitants. Part of that area is not rich on German standards , but other parts have a high medium income, especially Hamburg itself.
You have in that area a big presence of Airbus, part of the second biggest aerospace cluster in Europe and the third biggest in the world. You have quite a lot of other high tech companies. If you look at wind power for example you have Nordex, Senvion und Siemens with their wind power headquarters in Hamburg. Hamburg is not any longer only a big harbor and the declining shipbuilding. It is a center of the German music industry, newspaper publishers and after Berlin the biggest German cultural center.
GDP per capita in Hamburg is EUR 62.000, a bit above the German average.

HAM does not generate as much transatlantic demand compared to many of its German peers

For comparison - O&D PDEW to NYC the largest US-German market.

FRA - 693
MUC - 332
DUS/CGN - 263
BER - 245
HAM - 154
STR - 85

LAXintl wrote:

HAM does not generate as much transatlantic demand compared to many of its German peers

For comparison - O&D PDEW to NYC the largest US-German market.

FRA - 693
MUC - 332
DUS/CGN - 263
BER - 245
HAM - 154
STR - 85

According to the numbers I have (German Federal Office of Ststistics - Link):

Hamburg to Newark and JFK compared: 5953 Passengers in July oneway. Thats 192 a day. The United flight had a 88,24% loadfactor that month.
In reality its even more, so many people take the train or bus or car to DUS, FRA or BER and even CPH. These passengers never show up in those statistics, but they do in the numbers for Berlin, DUS etc. For example Berlin had four daily flights to NY this summer. This is one reason why they have more passengers; supply creates demand.

And I just dont unterstand why in the early 1990s for example Hamburg could support multiple daily flights to the US, with only 7-8 million annual passengers. Now we are approaching the 20 million mark rapidly (should be around 17,25 Million this year) and only this seasonal flight.

But only a few years ago MUC advanced to a Primary hub, equal with FRA

This is not about being a hub - I think we all agree why HAM cannot be one. This is about the lack of TATL (or any intercontinental) flights there. There are many cities which, without being a hub, have intercontinental connections.

What I dont untderstand is why they axe the route all the way from early October to early May, flying only 5 months.

The reason lies not in individual route profitability. You have to look at the bigger picture of TATL JV's, which have actually reinforced the hubs and done quite the damage to "secondary" EU cities. UA is getting the money anyway, whether these pax fly non-stop or via FRA. They don't care. Same as with STR. And pax have no choice anyway - Star frequent flyers will stay loyal and fly FRA, non-loyal pax are low yielding anyway, so UA doesn't care much if some are lost to AMS or CDG. They half-heartedly send a 767 in the summer because they see additional business in doing so, or because the spill to other airlines would be too great, but in the winter, they don't lose anything by not sending it.

Close to 40 flights a day is not a big player? This was around 2009-2012. Then the shrink of airberlin started.

Indeed, AB pulled its base in HAM long before the bankruptcy. The airport lost half a million pax that year, which were promptly picked up - and exceeded - by U2, DY and 4U/EW the following year.
The AB bankruptcy will not go unnoticed however, as Hamburg may have to suffer monopoly LH prices to core domestic routes.

bfitzflyer wrote:

Germany is interesting, what other country does not have true international hubs in it's two largest cities(Berlin and Hamburg). I know the reasons for Berlin are probably largely political. Hamburg is I guess just that Frankfurt and Munich developed as the hubs for LH and there has really never been a strong secondary International airline in Germany.

HAM is more or less an inner city airport today.

The town has "grown around it".
The airport was very much out on the fringe when established in 1911 for airship use initially.
( There once was a project around to move it out to the countryside.
see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flughafen_Kaltenkirchen )

More traffic would run into significant obstacles.
FRA is out of town from the get go and MUC has been moved into provincial space ( from Fürstenfeldbruck.)

After the war all TATL flights of the reestablished Lufthansa started from Hamburg.
only later moved to FRA.

WIederling wrote:

bfitzflyer wrote:

Germany is interesting, what other country does not have true international hubs in it's two largest cities(Berlin and Hamburg). I know the reasons for Berlin are probably largely political. Hamburg is I guess just that Frankfurt and Munich developed as the hubs for LH and there has really never been a strong secondary International airline in Germany.

HAM is more or less an inner city airport today.

The town has "grown around it".
The airport was very much out on the fringe when established in 1911 for airship use initially.
( There once was a project around to move it out to the countryside.
see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flughafen_Kaltenkirchen )

More traffic would run into significant obstacles.
FRA is out of town from the get go and MUC has been moved into provincial space ( from Fürstenfeldbruck.)

After the war all TATL flights of the reestablished Lufthansa started from Hamburg.
only later moved to FRA.

Yeah, they consciously decided to move it because HAM was too small. It's got crossing runways and is hemmed in, so there's not enough capacity to put a hub there. Once LH started in FRA, the rest was history.

HAM is an interesting case... Germany's second largest city, an economic powerhouse, no highspeed rail, and yet... rather underserved by air compared to similar European peers. IMO it is a combination of factors:

- The city has never cared much about HAM, it sees the airport as a convenient money-maker, not as an economic development tool. They have never fought for intercontinental flights (many of which typically need a little "initial push" from local authorities to kick off), and couldn't have cared less when HAM lost its year-round EWR. Even the amount of EU non-stops is not overwhelming. When a non-stop to a new place launches, it is despite the city & airport authorities, not thanks to them.

- The city airport's footprint is small, and surrounded and constrained by the surrounding city. There is simply no space for modern, large wingspan widebodies. The 767 and 757 are perfect, but the EK 77W blocks out and adjacent gate or two plus a taxiway when it is parked there. There is no physical space to base a meaningful number of widebodies there and park them overnight, or for several widebodies to arrive at the same time. The UEFA Cup final or the G20 showed the limitations: aircraft parked on taxiways or diverted to HAJ. How Hamburg wanted to host a whole Olympics, is a mistery to me. Perhaps, with LH Technik already moving out engine maintenance and some other activities, new space could be gained.

- Average transport connections. The rail to main station and the south is great, but there are no rail connections towards the north (Kiel, Lübeck...). There is no Autobahn link - just an avenue with traffic lights connecting to the A7 on the West. If you come from the East, you are forced to cross the entire city via local avenues. This reduces the catchment area.

r2rho wrote:

Average transport connections. The rail to main station and the south is great, but there are no rail connections towards the north (Kiel, Lübeck...). There is no Autobahn link - just an avenue with traffic lights connecting to the A7 on the West. If you come from the East, you are forced to cross the entire city via local avenues. This reduces the catchment area.

Hamburg isn't really the town to go when your are so very "Wichtig" that you have to commute by business jet.
Especially Olympics are a popular institution. Even if that seems to have gone lost on some.

No limits on rail connectivity really.
Direct destinations are Lübeck, Fehmarn Belt to Denmark,
Berlin,
Hannover, Bremen,
West Coast to Sylt and Denmark
Kiel, Flensburg, Copenhagen ( separating Neumünster )
ICE on HSR to the South, while Kiel has ICE connectivity at regular speeds.
Regular ICE3 trains coming in from Denmark.
A7 ( North, West and South ) access is quite sufficient
going east is a pain, I give you that. but who would want to go to Berlin anyway

Hamburg's issue is that the catchment area is not large enough. By area and especially by population.
Schleswig Holstein has about 1m more inhabitants as the State of Hamburg for together ~5m
for the metropolitan region ( including 1m or two in the Lower Saxonian neighborhood.)
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern to the East is sparsely populated too.

Whichever way you turn it. in a country that is well connected by fast land based public transport
a central large airport makes more sense.

The City state of Hamburg and the state of Schleswig Holstei started to plan a Joint Airport North of HAM in the town of Kaltenkirchen. That was a bit less than 50 years ago and the land was reserved up until a couple of years ago whenfinally the Project was cancelled. At about the same time Pax numbers whent upwards with double Digits.

Still, the decision was OK, aiports have to be where the passengers are and npt out in the boonies. HAM has plenty of room to grow and jezs become quieter every day.

Zaqattaq787 wrote:

DUS will be losing all 4 of its Air Berlin TATL routes later this month. Despite Hamburg being the second largest city in Germany, DUS is in Germany's largest metro (Rhine-Ruhr) region with greater business demand for international travel.

So when did EK's fifth freedom to JFK end? I thought this was a cool route with EK's sponsorship of the local football club. Here is some context when the route was announced in 2006 from "Emirates launched Dubai-Hamburg flights only last month (March) so this move next autumn (when the existing A330 is switched to a larger B777) means a service upgrade. Hamburg is one of Germany’s wealthiest cities and the airport’s catchment area covers Northern Germany, Berlin and areas of Denmark. Yet it is poorly served by long distance flights. Lufthansa, for example, hasn’t a single long haul flight from Hamburg. As a result, passengers seeking to reach the outside world invariably have to change planes at another hub. Emirates is expected to price keenly in all classes and will operate a wide-bodied B777 which has more passenger appeal than Continental’s narrow-bodied B757."

It's funny that EK still sponsors HSV as they've gone far more upscale since in football sponsorships - Real Madrid, Arsenal, PSG, etc. Shows a commitment to the club and HAM area in general.

PanHAM wrote:

HAM has plenty of room to grow and jezs become quieter every day.

That is basis for a Radio Eriwan question and answer set.

Q: have jets become quieter over time ?

A: in principle yes. But the nimbies feel disturbed from noise as long as they can see the jets.

nothing gained by technical progress.
Very pronounced at FRA / Rhein Main Airbase.
With the super loud ( early civil, all military ) jets the nice burgers building large houses on their cheaply acquired estates kept their trap shut.

When the military left and though newer jets were getting better on noise all the time the same people
sitting in their "wertgesteigert" housing started to increasingly and unendingly complain about noise.

WIederling wrote:

r2rho wrote:

Average transport connections. The rail to main station and the south is great, but there are no rail connections towards the north (Kiel, Lübeck...). There is no Autobahn link - just an avenue with traffic lights connecting to the A7 on the West. If you come from the East, you are forced to cross the entire city via local avenues. This reduces the catchment area.

Hamburg isn't really the town to go when your are so very "Wichtig" that you have to commute by business jet.
Especially Olympics are a popular institution. Even if that seems to have gone lost on some.

No limits on rail connectivity really.
Direct destinations are Lübeck, Fehmarn Belt to Denmark,
Berlin,
Hannover, Bremen,
West Coast to Sylt and Denmark
Kiel, Flensburg, Copenhagen ( separating Neumünster )
ICE on HSR to the South, while Kiel has ICE connectivity at regular speeds.
Regular ICE3 trains coming in from Denmark.
A7 ( North, West and South ) access is quite sufficient
going east is a pain, I give you that. but who would want to go to Berlin anyway

Hamburg's issue is that the catchment area is not large enough. By area and especially by population.
Schleswig Holstein has about 1m more inhabitants as the State of Hamburg for together ~5m
for the metropolitan region ( including 1m or two in the Lower Saxonian neighborhood.)
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern to the East is sparsely populated too.

Whichever way you turn it. in a country that is well connected by fast land based public transport
a central large airport makes more sense.

No ICEs to Denmark any more. Only 2 or 3 daily departures on the bumbling old IC3, a train that will struggle to exceed 150 kph, and take 4-6 hours to get anywhere.

r2rho wrote:

- The city airport's footprint is small, and surrounded and constrained by the surrounding city. There is simply no space for modern, large wingspan widebodies. The 767 and 757 are perfect, but the EK 77W blocks out and adjacent gate or two plus a taxiway when it is parked there. There is no physical space to base a meaningful number of widebodies there and park them overnight, or for several widebodies to arrive at the same time.

There are two Nonschengen positions sized for an A380, two more for 747/777/A340. Additional several remote stands for 747/777 sized planes without blocking taxiways.

in a country that is well connected by fast land based public transport a central large airport makes more sense.

Again: this is not about a hub. This is about TATL or intercont flights. We all agree why HAM is not a hub. But being a hub is not a necessary condition for getting intercont flights (though it helps of course).

There are two Nonschengen positions sized for an A380, two more for 747/777/A340.

I am not saying that you cannot park them there - even the A380 has made a commercial flight to HAM already, and will regularly soon. I am saying you cannot park more than 1 widebody without disruption to other operations.

No limits on rail connectivity really.

Regarding the city's rail connectivity, at a minimum, the harbor freight operators might disagree with you on the "no limitations" part - Hamburg has huge limitations and is one of the many bottlenecks in Germany. The lines to Hannover and Osnabrück are saturated, you couldn't fit a model train in between all the long-distance, regional and freight trains that have to share those poor tracks. The main station is bursting at the seams, and there is still only a single point to cross the river. And apart from the line to Berlin, Hamburg has no true HSR lines - only after you get to Hannover.

HAM has plenty of room to grow.

Actually... it doesn't, at least within its current footprint. Unless that is, you start bulding on the Kleingärten surrounding the airport, and we know where that would end...
Or alternatively, some of the LHT facilities could be used, since they're moving engine maintenance and others out of HAM that could free up some space
The terminal is showing first signs of saturation. It still manages, but one some days/hours, the airport experience has far worsened. The planned south pier will buy some time, but not forever. IMO, LBC should be reactivated again - with money from Hamburg - and the "Mallorca shuttles" moved there to free up room for higher-yielding flights in HAM.

t wouldn't be the first time that "Kleingärten" have to be razed to make room for other developments. The "other " side of the runway System is an untapped source for expansion. Next, when LH gives up engine overhaul in HAM, would the noise abatement halls for test runs still be needed?. Reacivating LCS would be OK but you cannot legally relocate flights there. Anyway, except for the Feeders to DXB there might be enough traiic for a handful of spokes to other hibs. Kaltenkirchen was conceived as the northern hub and it took 4 decades to realize that they do not have eough traffic for that. So the Region must live with what ift has. Which is not much considering the Status the City Claims for itself.

The ICE between HAM and BER is only 1 hour 40 min. Hamburg, while a great city, is pretty much surrounded by farmland. I would imagine that it would ultimately fall in the catchment of Berlin when (if?) the new airport opens.

simpv wrote:

The ICE between HAM and BER is only 1 hour 40 min. Hamburg, while a great city, is pretty much surrounded by farmland. I would imagine that it would ultimately fall in the catchment of Berlin when (if?) the new airport opens.

It is very unlikely Hamburg falling in the catchment area of Berlin. Both the Berlin metropolitan region and the Hamburg Metropolitan region are surrounded by Farmland. The one and a half hour train ride is a red Herring, you also have to get to the airport, and not all people using HAM live in central Hamburg. The Berlin metro, with 6 million, is only slightly larger than the Hamburg metro with 5.1 million.
I still think that HAM having only few TATL flights depends on the business strategy of airlines rather than there being no passengers. Lufthansa will not increase the number of German hubs unless their hand is forced by competition. I do not expect other legacy airlines to offer direct flights, but perhaps we see Norwegian or something similar in the future.

simpv wrote:

The ICE between HAM and BER is only 1 hour 40 min. Hamburg, while a great city, is pretty much surrounded by farmland. I would imagine that it would ultimately fall in the catchment of Berlin when (if?) the new airport opens.

In fact here are some people travelling to Berlin to catch a flight (also the other way round). But Hamburg will never be part of the catchment area of Berlin. Thats too far (and Germany is not Australia ). Also Hamburg has its own pretty big catchment area without big airports nearby. Next bigger airports are DUS/FRA, AMS, CPH and Berlin to the east, which is the closest, but not close enough. But there definitely is an overlap of the catchment areas of HAM and BER, those people either fly from Berlin or from Hamburg, depending on different factors. For example, from Wittenberge, a town in Brandenburg, it takes around 45-50 minutes to both Hamburg and Berlin by train (ICE).

t wouldn't be the first time that "Kleingärten" have to be razed to make room for other developments. The "other " side of the runway System is an untapped source for expansion. Next, when LH gives up engine overhaul in HAM, would the noise abatement halls for test runs still be needed?

I agree that the Kleingärten offer a smart and inexpensive expansion opportunity... I'm just not sure what politician would dare to touch them, for they can be some of the worst and most vocal NIMBYs.

Reacivating LCS would be OK but you cannot legally relocate flights there.

I guess you mean LBC No, you cannot legally do that, but if both airports were owned by the same operator, and LBC made slightly more attractive with a little investment, they could strike pricing deals that would encourage some flights to move there.

The ICE between HAM and BER is only 1 hour 40 min. Hamburg, while a great city, is pretty much surrounded by farmland. I would imagine that it would ultimately fall in the catchment of Berlin when (if?) the new airport opens.

1h43 is the best achivable duration between both main stations, so you are already taking the ideal case. On top, you have to add getting to Hamburg central, and getting from Berlin central or Südkreuz to BER. Suddenly you're beyond 2h30. And if you miss the flight due to train delays... bad luck. And why would anyone do that anyway, when connecting through [insert any EU hub here] is much easier and guarantees the connection? Sorry, but they are two completely different catchment areas, with small overlap in Wittenberge as has been said.

I do not expect other legacy airlines to offer direct flights, but perhaps we see Norwegian or something similar in the future.

I agree, HAM does not seem the place for classic legacy thinking. I don't even expect EW.

so we come to the conclusion that HAM as well as it's smaller Northern German neighbours HAJ and BRE are mainly feeding their Intercont passengers through a wide choice of hubs in Europe and the ME. While Berlin is, as always, a different planet, runningi out of Airports aktogether..

PanHAM wrote:

so we come to the conclusion that HAM as well as it's smaller Northern German neighbours HAJ and BRE are mainly feeding their Intercont passengers through a wide choice of hubs in Europe and the ME. While Berlin is, as always, a different planet, runningi out of Airports aktogether..

You can not compare HAJ and BRE to HAM. Hannover metro is about 3.9 million and Bremen Metro about 2.7. Both have a lower GDP per capita than Hamburg. The Advantage for HAJ would be that there is area for an expansion. Very unlikely in the near future.

Nowhere did I compare HAJ/BRE with Hamburg meine Perle. What I said is that all three of them will have to feed most of their intercont traffic via various hubs. Whereby HAJ has a lot of direct flight to Russia and former Republics and IIRC no curfew

Next year United restarts Hamburg flights already 10 days earlier, from April 25 departing EWR. Aircraft change from 767-300 to 757-200, as of now for all 2018. But I cant imagine theyll fly the 757 through all of July, August and September. Flights were too good the last two years on the 767-300 and -400!

Aircraft change from 767-300 to 757-200, as of now for all 2018

If true this is a significant downgrade, and is further proof of how half-heartedly UA serves the route. Filling the 767 in the summer was a no-brainer. But as long as the overspill from the 757 flies via FRA, UA still gets the money through the TATL JV. So they don't really care.

r3ho, you are right. Except UA is not that "half hearted" about flying the route. If that were true, they would have just dropped the route just like OSL, BFS, BRS, and CGN. But it's coming back.

The killer for TATL service for places like Hamburg, are alliances and JVs. Hamburg will get more direct flights only when an other airline than the legacies decides to move in.

The killer for TATL service for places like Hamburg, are alliances and JVs. Hamburg will get more direct flights only when an other airline than the legacies decides to move in.

Agree - and that's what I was trying to communicate earlier. Ironically, in the age when supposedly more p2p flying should happen thanks to new aircraft designs, the "secondary" cities are actually losing out versus more hub flying, due to alliances and JVs. UA couldn't care less if a Y pax flies HAM-EWR or HAM-FRA-EWR. As long as he does it within the TATL JV, they'll see the money. Only if a route has enough premium pax willing to pay extra to fly non-stop, and willing to defect to another alliance, will the route survive. With Germany being a Star fortress, HAM's premium frequent flyers will likely stay loyal even if it means an additional stop.

Only non-legacy carriers, like DY, can change this.

The other alterative is, for companies that Need frequent travel, to locate the Office Close to an Airport that offers a wide choice of intercont Services. For internal EU traffic PtP is a reality at places like HAM DUS STR