AA CEO: "we'll never lose money again"

ckfred · Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:17 pm

The airline industry didn't get to where it is overnight, and any chance of the industry going back to what it was in the 80s and 90s is almost zilch. The problem was that the legacies had clear advantages over carriers like Southwest, Jet Blue, Air Tran, Frontier, ValuJet, Midway, and so on. Yet, they decided to match fares while offering a higher level of service.

That isn't how business works.

If you offer a higher level of service, you then charge higher prices.

I drive a Chevy. About the only thing free in the service department waiting room is coffee and tea. Snacks and soda are in vending machines.

When I drove an Oldsmobile, the dealership was bought out by a Cadillac dealership down the street. They had bottled water, coffee, tea, bottled tea, and pastries set out in the waiting room.

But then, when a Cadillac CTS costs twice as much as a Chevy Malibu, the customer expects better treatment while waiting for the car.

If the likes of AA, UA, DL, NW, CO, et al had understood that for having coach meals, reserved seats, and such, they could market those perks and charge higher fares, both walk-up and leisure, we would see better service, fewer fees, and probably higher fares.

When people think that a product is a commodity, like milk or gasoline, then trying to market a better product becomes difficult. It will be all about price.

jnev3289 · Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:24 pm

ckfred wrote:
The airline industry didn't get to where it is overnight, and any chance of the industry going back to what it was in the 80s and 90s is almost zilch. The problem was that the legacies had clear advantages over carriers like Southwest, Jet Blue, Air Tran, Frontier, ValuJet, Midway, and so on. Yet, they decided to match fares while offering a higher level of service.

That isn't how business works.

If you offer a higher level of service, you then charge higher prices.

I drive a Chevy. About the only thing free in the service department waiting room is coffee and tea. Snacks and soda are in vending machines.

When I drove an Oldsmobile, the dealership was bought out by a Cadillac dealership down the street. They had bottled water, coffee, tea, bottled tea, and pastries set out in the waiting room.

But then, when a Cadillac CTS costs twice as much as a Chevy Malibu, the customer expects better treatment while waiting for the car.

If the likes of AA, UA, DL, NW, CO, et al had understood that for having coach meals, reserved seats, and such, they could market those perks and charge higher fares, both walk-up and leisure, we would see better service, fewer fees, and probably higher fares.

When people think that a product is a commodity, like milk or gasoline, then trying to market a better product becomes difficult. It will be all about price.

Honestly, lets just have the government take it all over like they do with agriculture. If it's so factually a commodity like everyone says it is, lets just have USA airlines

AI126 · Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:29 pm

jayunited wrote:
I'm shocked by how many people are hoping his words come back to bite him. I hope they don't, his statement reminds me of something Oscar Munoz said at a town hall where he said something to the effect that if the industry learns from its past mistakes we should not have to worry about bankruptcy ever again. As much as people take to this cite and bash the US3 we tend to forget the US3 combined employs hundreds of thousands of people worldwide and when an airline looses money it not only effects the airline it effects the employees which in turn effects the employees family.
I like when airlines succeed and are profitable it makes for a better place to work. I realize it is people who make the airline and that because of the success of the airline they are able to keep a roof over their head, food on the table, put their children through school, take care of their aging parents and many other things. I don't know about international carriers but now the US3 and WN seem to paying their employees who've reach mid to top scale a livable wage; a wage where employees no longer have to work 2 to 3 jobs just to make ends meet. Every airline employee I know wants to see their airline succeed no one wants to go through another bankruptcy because those of us who live through it understand the effects bankruptcy has on everyone who connected to that airline.
I understand every industry has its ups and down the airlines are no exception but I hope AA, DL and UA have learned from past mistakes, I hope other airlines have learned from their mistakes so that we don't repeat the bankruptcy nightmare in the future. Even though AA is UA's competitor I have friends who work for AA so I most certainly do not want to see Doug Parker's words come back to bite him like some of you are hoping they will.

There's a phrase for what you're talking about and the disgusting logic you are employing here: "Worship your master".

I suggest you open the American history books and read about the Homestead Massacre, Ludlow Massacre, and Battle of Blair Mountain.

Bosses are not gods, and anyone who makes the assertion that workers owe their livelihood to keeping their employers and bosses happy and begging them for subsistence is making an abominable assertion and has sheer hatred for the working class.

gwrudolph · Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:04 pm

jayunited wrote:
I'm shocked by how many people are hoping his words come back to bite him. I hope they don't, his statement reminds me of something Oscar Munoz said at a town hall where he said something to the effect that if the industry learns from its past mistakes we should not have to worry about bankruptcy ever again. As much as people take to this cite and bash the US3 we tend to forget the US3 combined employs hundreds of thousands of people worldwide and when an airline looses money it not only effects the airline it effects the employees which in turn effects the employees family.
I like when airlines succeed and are profitable it makes for a better place to work. I realize it is people who make the airline and that because of the success of the airline they are able to keep a roof over their head, food on the table, put their children through school, take care of their aging parents and many other things. I don't know about international carriers but now the US3 and WN seem to paying their employees who've reach mid to top scale a livable wage; a wage where employees no longer have to work 2 to 3 jobs just to make ends meet. Every airline employee I know wants to see their airline succeed no one wants to go through another bankruptcy because those of us who live through it understand the effects bankruptcy has on everyone who connected to that airline.
I understand every industry has its ups and down the airlines are no exception but I hope AA, DL and UA have learned from past mistakes, I hope other airlines have learned from their mistakes so that we don't repeat the bankruptcy nightmare in the future. Even though AA is UA's competitor I have friends who work for AA so I most certainly do not want to see Doug Parker's words come back to bite him like some of you are hoping they will.

I would agree with you. I hope his words don't come back to bite him for all of the reasons you cite. However, I don't think that Oscar's statement about *bankruptcy* not being a threat *if* the industry learns from its mistakes is the same as Doug saying we'll never *lose money* again. The latter is a much bolder statement and prediction

gwrudolph · Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:15 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
I haven't stepped foot on an American Airlines plane since March. The US Airways culture absolutely destroyed the airline and the product is worst in the domestic industry in every aspect - loyalty program, catering, hard product (although admittedly the new 77W J seats are fantastic, and assume the new 789s are, too). Loving Alaska and JetBlue, such a more refreshing experience, especially JetBlue Mint.

PMUS was the worst in my opinion. Awful hub facilities (not well maintained), dirty airplanes, rude employees who could care less, and sloppy uniforms (including the cabin crew). I once boarded an A320 in PHX and as I got into my aisle seat (aircraft still at the gate and door opened), I noticed the adjacent window seat had blood smeared all over the window and sidewall. I told the flight attendant and she said yea, it is a turnaround so it doesn't get a full clean then went on her way . . .

Flighty · Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:22 pm

You guys are kinda overlooking how well managed PMUS was... few airlines have ever achieved more... that team is today considered the leaders of the industry... just my opinion.

ADrum23 · Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:18 pm

Very arrogant of Mr. Parker to say that. Sounds like he may need to be replaced........

DarthLobster · Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:46 pm

Those words will be emblazoned on the side of the cart that carries his drunken ass to CEO hell, where he’ll rot with the likes of Frank Lorenzo and Jeff Smisek...

nwcoflyer · Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:47 pm

AI126 wrote:
Doug Parker is one of the most egregiously anti-worker and anti-customer executives in the country, right up there with the CEOs of Wall Street.

It's time for the US government to bring in the Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts and break up the airlines (among other industries including banking) and end all ATI JVs. All of this has been the most patently horrid anti-worker action in American history since the Progressive Era, and it's time we cleaned up this mess we've got ourselves in. Enough if enough.

As someone who has worked at American for a long time, I'd say working conditions have improved. Doug has made good on his promise to share. I feel like many of my coworkers are of the mindset that if they company isn't bleeding money- they are not being compensated accordingly. I know some airport agents and clerks who are making more than their managers. I don't think that is bad for front line employees. I don't know how you call that "anti worker"...

Articles like this would have been laughable even 5 years ago. Imagine Tom Horton or Gerard Arpey or cAArty doing anything of the sort...

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-american-airlines-raises-20170427-story.html

Time's change... so do attitudes. Especially when you stick around.

Super80Fan · Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:30 am

sw733 wrote:
itchief wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
[*]

Funny, I have been on several flights. Every one of them packed to the gills. It does not appear by my experience that the airline is "destroyed."

Just because the seats are full does not mean that the customer service of the "Old AA" has not been destroyed. They are nothing but a Spirit Airlines wannabe now.

Spirit's doing just fine these days, so I would imagine a lot of airlines around the world would "wannabe" Spirit.

Difference being, Spirit is upfront in saying, "We're offering you a cheap fare, having you pay for everything else, and not giving you anything else other than safe transportation from Point A to Point B". American, United, Delta etc are saying, "We're offering you these fares with award winning service", saying they are a full service premium carrier only for everything to be extra or crappy. At least Spirit isn't lying to my face.

jeffrey1970 · Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:34 am

330west wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
I happen to love American Airlines. I have always been treated with wonderful customer service by their employees, as well as when I flew on Us airways.

I did love American Airlines - I flew around a hundred thousand miles with them(and BA, Cathay and Qatar) each year for the last five. I've had a lot of good experiences, a few amazing experiences and a small number of bad ones. Unfortunately with the complete devaluation of AAdvantage I've had to rethink my allegiance to an airline that forces me to connect on my most frequently traveled route and I decided it just wasn't worth it anymore so I now fly them when it makes sense and not when it doesn't.

The last time I flew with them each flight attendant was very friendly, and they went out of their way to welcome some children who were on their first flight. I found out that they all got started with Alleghany airlines, and I told them how I used to fly on Alleghany all the time.

United787 · Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:53 am

Putting his comments aside, the airline industry in the US has come a long way and I think they have finally figured out some sort of equilibrium post deregulation, it took 35 years and many bankruptcies. The airlines will have years with losses but they shouldn't be crippling. No more flying prestige routes, no more 1/2 empty planes, airlines are finally being run like businesses. They have learned to compete with the LCCs in the US and the "luxury" airlines of Asia and make money doing it. And it isn't just consolidation.

frmrCapCadet · Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:31 am

Record profits tend to attract more companies, it will not happen fast but expect more competition.

MIflyer12 · Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:05 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Record profits tend to attract more companies, it will not happen fast but expect more competition.

Good luck with that. It won't be foreign carriers - restrictions on cabotage will be an existential battle. It will take very deep pockets to start a meaningful domestic competitor.

DocLightning · Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:19 am

77H wrote:
Well in that case....

I will never win the powerball within the next 6 months!

77H

You now officially owe me 20% of your winnings.

ITB · Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:44 am

“I don’t think we’re ever going to lose money again,” Parker said. “We have an industry that’s going to be profitable in good and bad times.”

Famous last words. It's good to be optimistic, but this is a reach.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/a ... ney-again/

zelalemon · Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:50 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Very arrogant of Mr. Parker to say that. Sounds like he may need to be replaced........

A CEO of an extremely profitable company should be replaced because he's being a bit arrogant? If you ask me, if anyone deserves to be arrogant its him.

acentauri · Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:04 am

If you've been here and on other online airline forums long enough, you'd notice the same ole same ole people bashing the new American and personally attacking it's CEO. Me thinks the majority of these people lost $, perks AND mostly Face (reputation) when the merger was approved (after they blatantly sang their song over and over, "It'll never be approved"). They just can't live with Parker's success at/with AA. I've made lots investing in this airline post merger and LOVE Parker and his employees for it !! Sure, I wish AA was the U.S. version of QR., but it'll have to do in this highly regulated industry.

acentauri · Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:05 am

If you've been here and on other online airline forums long enough, you'd notice the same ole same ole people bashing the new American and personally attacking it's CEO. Me thinks the majority of these people lost $, perks AND mostly Face (reputation) when the merger was approved (after they blatantly sang their song over and over, "It'll never be approved"). They just can't live with Parker's success at/with AA. I've made lots investing in this airline post merger and LOVE Parker and his employees for it !! Sure, I wish AA was the U.S. version of QR., but it'll have to do in this highly regulated industry.

AAplat4life · Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:43 am

Based on the last couple of quarters, AA's financial returns continue to fall behind Delta and United. We will see if this continues, but there's anecdotal evidence that certain parts of AA's network are underperforming and AA does not have a compelling business strategy to address this other than Mr. Parker making arrogant statements such as how good the product is despite evidence to the contrary. AA's focus is on the 70% of its customers who fly cheap and account for 50% of its revenues, but the remaining customer base represents more revenue per passenger. So given AA's mantra lately of doing everything it can to devalue its best customers, this will show up much quicker in the bottom line. It's more than legacy status members complaining, because they have choices in many AA markets. His mentality appears to be stuck in hubs where the choices are fewer.After last quarter's earnings, Mr. Parker indicated that he was not interested in comparisons to the competitors. We can all read our own conclusions into that. My personal view is that the board members should have been appalled.

ldvaviation · Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:24 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
Based on the last couple of quarters, AA's financial returns continue to fall behind Delta and United. We will see if this continues, but there's anecdotal evidence that certain parts of AA's network are underperforming and AA does not have a compelling business strategy to address this other than Mr. Parker making arrogant statements such as how good the product is despite evidence to the contrary. AA's focus is on the 70% of its customers who fly cheap and account for 50% of its revenues, but the remaining customer base represents more revenue per passenger. So given AA's mantra lately of doing everything it can to devalue its best customers, this will show up much quicker in the bottom line. It's more than legacy status members complaining, because they have choices in many AA markets. His mentality appears to be stuck in hubs where the choices are fewer.After last quarter's earnings, Mr. Parker indicated that he was not interested in comparisons to the competitors. We can all read our own conclusions into that. My personal view is that the board members should have been appalled.

Here's a comparison for you:

If AA is "doing everything it can to devalue its best customers," why is that AA's RASM and yield increased at a higher rate over the last two quarters than that of United and Delta? In absolute terms, AA's yield and RASM numbers are higher than United's and approaching Delta's.

To be sure, there has been a devaluation, but it has been targeted at customers whose revenue contribution never justified the benefits or products they received. Were you one of those customers?

ckfred · Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:31 am

AI126 wrote:
Doug Parker is one of the most egregiously anti-worker and anti-customer executives in the country, right up there with the CEOs of Wall Street.

It's time for the US government to bring in the Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts and break up the airlines (among other industries including banking) and end all ATI JVs. All of this has been the most patently horrid anti-worker action in American history since the Progressive Era, and it's time we cleaned up this mess we've got ourselves in. Enough if enough.

If Parker is anti-worker, well, he learned it from his initial stint at AA, when Bob Crandall was CEO. I know a few pilots who have always felt that Crandall was an SOB, when it came to labor relations, but they were glad he was AA's SOB and not Delta, United, Trans World, etc.

By the same token, about the only airline that really thinks about the customer is Southwest. If an airline devises a new fee or a cutback on the on-board product, everyone copies it.

As for the various anti-trust laws on the books, let's remember that just about every merger in the history of U.S. commercial aviation has been either approved by CAB/DOT/DOJ or, if a merger was rejected, many of them later went through pursuant to settlement talks with the government. About the only merger that was rejected, and that the two carriers chose not to fight was UA/US.

Let's remember some basic economics. Every industry has an optimal number of competitors. If an industry has too many, consumers do well for a while with low prices. But, competitors don't make enough money to invest in capital improvements. For the airline industry, that would include new aircraft, improved cabin product, such as Wi-Fi, improved IT, refurbishing terminals and gates, and so on.

Think about how shabby airports started to look a few years after 9/11, because airlines weren't investing in refurbishing gates, clubs, and so on. We know that airlines were deferring and cancelling aircraft orders, and that those cancellations came back to bite the airlines when the price of jet fuel ran up in 2007 and 2008.

On the other hand, if an industry has too few competitors, then consumers pay monopolistic prices, while competitors sit on monopoly profits, rather than spend them to improve the product.

Case in point would be AT&T, when in controlled both local and long distance. I remember when a call more than a few miles from my house was billed in message units, based on time and distance. Long distance was billed for the first 3 minutes plus each additional minute. Once the monopoly was broken up, a lot of features like Caller ID and Call Wating became standard instead of an expensive option, and there is only a flat fee for all calls, rather the message unit or per minute charge, regardless of distance.

Three legacy carriers, Southwest, JetBlue, Alaska, and Spirit seem to be the number that allows all of the carriers to make money, so that it can afford to offer reasonable wage increases and make capital improvement.

neomax · Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:36 am

ITB wrote:
“I don’t think we’re ever going to lose money again,” Parker said. “We have an industry that’s going to be profitable in good and bad times.”

Famous last words. It's good to be optimistic, but this is a reach.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/a ... ney-again/

It's easy to say that the industry can be profitable in bad times when you're thinking about it from the comfort of a strong economy. Being in it is quite a different thing however.

grbauc · Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:52 am

old news bring this up in the down turn then we can lament.

Bobloblaw · Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:19 am

AI126 wrote:
Doug Parker is one of the most egregiously anti-worker and anti-customer executives in the country, right up there with the CEOs of Wall Street.

It's time for the US government to bring in the Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts and break up the airlines (among other industries including banking) and end all ATI JVs. All of this has been the most patently horrid anti-worker action in American history since the Progressive Era, and it's time we cleaned up this mess we've got ourselves in. Enough if enough.

The industry is more proworker today than it has been in 40 years. Breaking up the airlines will reduce profitability and put pressure on wages and benefits.

Galwayman · Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:51 pm

He’s fairly confident the USh*thole3 have found amazing ways to rip off passengers

Thank god for Emirates ... we’d be lost without them and Turkish etc

Q · Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:56 pm

Nobody can say that "never run of money in business". All business can be running out of cash or bankruptcy or government can shut them down. No earth can be say never run out of money. It's silly to mention by CEO. CEO should join with Trump admn in White House. Go ahead to see how it happened in White House. LOL!

Q

LAX772LR · Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:03 pm

itchief wrote:
They are nothing but a Spirit Airlines wannabe now.

As will nearly ALL airlines be, at least in the Y cabin, in a short time.

Why? Because NK is making money hand over fist, and the public will not punish the larger airlines with their wallets for following suit.

And anyone naive enough to believe that the oh-so-great Asian and European airlines aren't going to eventually follow suit in their own way, are in for one heck of a rude awakening.

sw733 wrote:
Spirit's doing just fine these days, so I would imagine a lot of airlines around the world would "wannabe" Spirit.

neomax · Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:02 am

LAX772LR wrote:
itchief wrote:
They are nothing but a Spirit Airlines wannabe now.

As will nearly ALL airlines be, at least in the Y cabin, in a short time.

Why? Because NK is making money hand over fist, and the public will not punish the larger airlines with their wallets for following suit.

And anyone naive enough to believe that the oh-so-great Asian and European airlines aren't going to eventually follow suit in their own way, are in for one heck of a rude awakening.

sw733 wrote:
Spirit's doing just fine these days, so I would imagine a lot of airlines around the world would "wannabe" Spirit.

I'm going to hold you to that. Just because AA wants to follow Spirit doesn't mean DL and UA are stupid enough to follow suit. They are three different airlines for a reason. Please point me to the thread where Spirit produced record profits of 5.5 billion USD, oh wait...

nutsaboutplanes · Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:38 am

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3322087-a ... -q4-update

AA is making some good progress with RASM and I expect there will be efforts in 2018 to reduce CASM growth. The focus on the premium cabin customers, I believe is the right call. The investments in the Admirals clubs (Flagship Dining in particular) and the lie flat/ premium economy enhancements are producing returns.

The main cabin reconfigurations while clearly not popular with people on here will not cause people to book away from AA especially as other airlines do exactly the same thing. Taking the 737 fleet to 170 plus seats and the A321 up to 190 seats is a big revenue opportunity with hundreds of these aircraft in the fleet. This is exactly what they should be doing as it allows them to grow revenue without adding trip costs or additional aircraft/ staff.

As far as Doug Parker is concerned, he is the longest tenured Airline CEO in the US and not by just a little. He knows the business and while the comment may not have been the best thing to say, the dynamics of the business have changed and the airlines are in a far better position to handle a downturn.

I expect AA to continue its efforts to segment the product it offers from Basic Economy through FS first with ongoing efforts to bolster its premium offerings in a way that generates premium revenue.

2175301 · Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 am

I believe Doug's choice of words were poor. Assuming no major financial shocks to the industry or to the US economy... I suspect he is correct; and would not even think of challenging his statement had he put it into words like that.

The problem is the word "never." There are 3 or 4 very plausible future scenarios that could plunge airlines (and other businesses) into losses if not outright failures; and in the end no one may be immune to the worst possible cases. I personally believe that Delta and Southwest are in the best shape to handle such major disruptions due to their debt load and other factors. But, even they could be significantly effected by a major disruption in the oil supplies, manufacturing capabilities, or devaluation of the US dollar due to various man-made or natural events or situations.

Have a great day,

WWads · Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:03 am

2175301 wrote:
I believe Doug's choice of words were poor. Assuming no major financial shocks to the industry or to the US economy... I suspect he is correct; and would not even think of challenging his statement had he put it into words like that.

The problem is the word "never." There are 3 or 4 very plausible future scenarios that could plunge airlines (and other businesses) into losses if not outright failures; and in the end no one may be immune to the worst possible cases. I personally believe that Delta and Southwest are in the best shape to handle such major disruptions due to their debt load and other factors. But, even they could be significantly effected by a major disruption in the oil supplies, manufacturing capabilities, or devaluation of the US dollar due to various man-made or natural events or situations.

Have a great day,

Ironically, I think AA is the most vulnerable of the big four if things go south. They're getting close to surrendering the NY market, have managed to alienate many of their most loyal customers, and have simmering labor issues.

Samrnpage · Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:23 am

What's the seat pitch on the American's MAX's in comparison to Ryanair?

itchief · Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:12 am

Samrnpage wrote:
What's the seat pitch on the American's MAX's in comparison to Ryanair?

A 15 second google search comes up with same same, 30'.

usairways787 · Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:16 am

WWads wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I believe Doug's choice of words were poor. Assuming no major financial shocks to the industry or to the US economy... I suspect he is correct; and would not even think of challenging his statement had he put it into words like that.

The problem is the word "never." There are 3 or 4 very plausible future scenarios that could plunge airlines (and other businesses) into losses if not outright failures; and in the end no one may be immune to the worst possible cases. I personally believe that Delta and Southwest are in the best shape to handle such major disruptions due to their debt load and other factors. But, even they could be significantly effected by a major disruption in the oil supplies, manufacturing capabilities, or devaluation of the US dollar due to various man-made or natural events or situations.

Have a great day,

Ironically, I think AA is the most vulnerable of the big four if things go south. They're getting close to surrendering the NY market, have managed to alienate many of their most loyal customers, and have simmering labor issues.

That simmer has actually began to grow into a boiling point.

LAX772LR · Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:19 am

neomax wrote:
I'm going to hold you to that.

Oh no, not that. :roll:

neomax wrote:
Just because AA wants to follow Spirit doesn't mean DL and UA are stupid enough to follow suit.

What are you talking about? Do you, for some reason, believe that DL/UA haven't introduced similar devaluation in (some aspects of) their program/offering/services similarly to AA?

neomax wrote:
Please point me to the thread where Spirit produced record profits of 5.5 billion USD,

And while you're waiting: here, let me hand you a basic arithmetic book; so you can learn to scale margins to comparative size, and spare yourself ridiculous statements such as this. :razz:

AA CEO: "we'll never lose money again"

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