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texl1649 wrote:
Well put. There are a vast number of hurt feelings in the aviation/media on this, but it's really not too complicated. Tread lightly vs. bureaucrats no matter what country you are in. Bombardier (which, as we all know, is actually massively subsidized) decided to flip the proverbial bird at USDOC. Now they can deal with the consequences; the main one is that the CS500 won't be launched, if ever, for another 10 years.
AirbusCanada wrote:texl1649 wrote:
Well put. There are a vast number of hurt feelings in the aviation/media on this, but it's really not too complicated. Tread lightly vs. bureaucrats no matter what country you are in. Bombardier (which, as we all know, is actually massively subsidized) decided to flip the proverbial bird at USDOC. Now they can deal with the consequences; the main one is that the CS500 won't be launched, if ever, for another 10 years.
If i was the Canadian govt, I would give out juicy Defense contact to BBd to develop a CS500 based AWACS to replace CP-140 Auroras. If Bombardier can amortized entire cost of developing CS500 on a defense contract, they can dump free CS500 on Boeing's Best customer (Southwest).
bigjku wrote:.
Now if you wanted to develop an MPA and a stretch of the C-Series and then buy just a dozen of them I would suggest you might also still get fired when the other party runs campaign commercials on your billion plus dollar a piece MPA aircraft. I suppose you can stand and defend it as charity for BBD but that isn’t quite the campaign commercial that the other side could run.
Good luck though, it sounds like a brilliant scheme.
washingtonflyer wrote:iamlucky13 wrote:Utterly absurd. I'm not sure I can defend Bombardier's aid or pricing, but the scale of duties is completely unsupportable.
Again, the dumping deposit rate is based on the petition rate. Bombardier refused to answer Commerce's questions. So, Commerce found that the only margin on record is the margin that the Petitioner proposed.
Nean1 wrote:washingtonflyer wrote:If the IRS calls you in for an audit and you tell the IRS, "I think your questions are stupid and irrelevant and I'm not going to give you any records", don't be surprised when the IRS tags you with a nice penalty.
I totally agree. The extremely high penalty gives a hint that the BBD must have conducted this issue quite inappropriately, possibly in total disrespect to the commission.
JoeCanuck wrote:You said you were a lawyer, right? I believe you.
ExMilitaryEng wrote:It was a lost cause at the USDOC anyways.
Historically, 90% of their preliminary decisions always sided with the (US) original complaint. USDOC even helps those US firms in their complaint filing / writing to ensure a win.
ExMilitaryEng wrote:There was no points for BBD revealing any confidential information to the opposing party while it is not getting the same confidential info from Boeing.
ExMilitaryEng wrote:On the other hand, the determination of harm is historically determined 60% of the times. Less many kangaroos here...
leghorn wrote:Ah, now I get ya. It's all about "Respect my authoritah" like something out of a juvenile cartoon.
If someone came to me and said I want to know everything about your cost structures forcing me to give information which will find its way in to the hands of my competitors that would otherwise only be leaked through industrial espionage for product I haven't even yet sold on their street corner wouldn't I be best advised to keep quiet.
I myself have no respect for the Wilbur Ross driven DoC and if I was going to loose either way with him driving a kangaroo court I'd keep quiet.
danman132x wrote:Quote from an article I read
"U.S. Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross said the decision affirmed Trump's "America First" policy"
What about "innovation first"? The c-series is an amazing plane. We need new technologies and more efficient planes! Boeing and airbus sure as hell didnt do it with this size aircraft. Innovation is a good thing. This whole case makes me so angry and I hope to see this whole thing drop at the end! Bombardier did no harm to Boeing. They are just scared of the future that a new player might emerge with better planes. Maybe it'll force them to INNOVATE more and spend more money for better planes! Yes Boeing have good planes now too, but it never hurts to try and be better. And without new competition, that will not happen. But as with all big companies, they are lining the pockets of some politicians and persuading them in their favor. All crooked to one extent or another.
washingtonflyer wrote:Let me say this, if you think thumbing your nose at a Federal agency is going to get you the result you want (i.e., a low dumping margin), then you're living in a universe that is far, far away.
washingtonflyer wrote:leghorn wrote:and let me say this, a trade war and an isolated U.S is the logical conclusion of the unreasonable actions of the Department of Commerce. The U.S. are the aggressors here and I will have no sympathy for them when their "acting out" blows up in their faces.
The DOC may imagine themselves righteous based on the rules they have constructed for themselves but they are being observed by others who frame policy and decide terms of trade abroad.
There isn't a single investigative authority out there that oversees AD/CVD cases that permits a company to decide for itself what information its going to submit and what information its not going to submit. Emasculation of the investigative agency isn't something the various authorities stand for. Not CBSA in Canada, not SAT in Mexico, not the DGTR in India.
ytz wrote:Time for Nav Canada to increase fees for US registered aircraft transiting Canadian airspace..... Sure the FAA will retaliate. But that just makes a few vacation trips more expensive. On the other hand, every US flight going to Europe or Asia will now be at a disadvantage against their Asian and European competitors. If they cost us airframe jobs, it's time for us to show them, we can cost them airline jobs.
washingtonflyer wrote:NAFTA negotiations will take years. This case will be over by February.
airnorth wrote:washingtonflyer wrote:leghorn wrote:and let me say this, a trade war and an isolated U.S is the logical conclusion of the unreasonable actions of the Department of Commerce. The U.S. are the aggressors here and I will have no sympathy for them when their "acting out" blows up in their faces.
The DOC may imagine themselves righteous based on the rules they have constructed for themselves but they are being observed by others who frame policy and decide terms of trade abroad.
There isn't a single investigative authority out there that oversees AD/CVD cases that permits a company to decide for itself what information its going to submit and what information its not going to submit. Emasculation of the investigative agency isn't something the various authorities stand for. Not CBSA in Canada, not SAT in Mexico, not the DGTR in India.
Just curious, in the BBD press release, they say they could not provide the information as the aircraft have yet to be produced. Is this what you are referring to in your post about emasculating the investigative agency?
I always find these sorts of hearings very confusing as nothing appears to be simply black or white.
"As we have explained repeatedly to the Department, Bombardier cannot provide the production costs for the Delta aircraft for a very simple reason; they have not yet been produced. Commerce’s attempt to create future costs and sales prices by looking at aircraft not imported into the United States is inappropriate and inconsistent with the agency’s past practices. This departure from past precedent and disregard of well-known industry practices is an apparent attempt to deprive U.S. airlines from enjoying the benefits of the C Series, even though Boeing abandoned the segment of the market served by the C Series more than a decade ago."
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/news ... ercom.html
I guess all of this public consumable information is for the most part just posturing, but is there a grain of truth in their release?
Again, genuinely curious.
It’s not that Boeing can’t innovate. It is that economically it decided a program to do this wasn’t viable. Seeing as it effectively put BBD out of business before it was bailed out it seems hard to disagree with them.
So that’s the problem. You have a great product, but it isn’t great enough to command a price at which it can return a real profit, that probably shouldn’t exist. If we are all mature about it I think we could all admit that is pretty much the circumstance we are in. In fact that was the whole issue in the smaller aircraft market. Nothing outside radical innovation promised a return on investment. Now we have this plane that made it because Canada stepped well over the line and it’s a mess.
GalaxyFlyer wrote:It’s not that Boeing can’t innovate. It is that economically it decided a program to do this wasn’t viable. Seeing as it effectively put BBD out of business before it was bailed out it seems hard to disagree with them.
So that’s the problem. You have a great product, but it isn’t great enough to command a price at which it can return a real profit, that probably shouldn’t exist. If we are all mature about it I think we could all admit that is pretty much the circumstance we are in. In fact that was the whole issue in the smaller aircraft market. Nothing outside radical innovation promised a return on investment. Now we have this plane that made it because Canada stepped well over the line and it’s a mess.
Absolutely true, BUT if the Canadians want to subsidize it, all the better for the customer. The only harm is to the taxpayers who seem ok with it as they elected Trudeau.
GF
bigjku wrote:Put it this way, BBD’s biggest division is it’s trains right? If the US subsidized a more efficient but otherwise uneconomical train engine and dumped it in Canada how would they respond?
bigjku wrote:If the US subsidized a more efficient but otherwise uneconomical train engine...
SheikhDjibouti wrote:bigjku wrote:If the US subsidized a more efficient but otherwise uneconomical train engine...
More efficient, but otherwise uneconomical?
I am intrigued. How does that add up?
surfdog75 wrote:What’s the next step? WTC?, Courts? Too bad Boeing didn’t decide to compete with a better product instead of abdicating the category then using the Trump administration to try and kill what appears to be a great aircraft from one of our historically best friends. Boeing has seemed like a rudderless ship since the 787 development debacle.
SheikhDjibouti wrote:bigjku wrote:If the US subsidized a more efficient but otherwise uneconomical train engine...
More efficient, but otherwise uneconomical?
I am intrigued. How does that add up?
CX747 wrote:Overall, the US, Canada and the UK are allies. We shouldn't be treating one another this way. I hope they can all sit down and come to a fair decision for everyone involved.
leghorn wrote:and let me say this, a trade war and an isolated U.S is the logical conclusion of the unreasonable actions of the Department of Commerce. The U.S. are the aggressors here and I will have no sympathy for them when their "acting out" blows up in their faces.
The DOC may imagine themselves righteous based on the rules they have constructed for themselves but they are being observed by others who frame policy and decide terms of trade abroad.
ytz wrote:Time for Nav Canada to increase fees for US registered aircraft transiting Canadian airspace..... Sure the FAA will retaliate. But that just makes a few vacation trips more expensive. On the other hand, every US flight going to Europe or Asia will now be at a disadvantage against their Asian and European competitors. If they cost us airframe jobs, it's time for us to show them, we can cost them airline jobs.
washingtonflyer wrote:There is one little thing that can be done - and I do not know if BBD is willing to do this.
Under US law, there is a mechanism and process called a "suspension agreement". Basically the parties negotiate a settlement with the parties agreeing to terms of a deal that the US government also has to sign off on. I believe that since this includes a countervailing subsidy, that some input is needed from GOC, GOO, GOQ, and UK govt.
The terms are flexible and decided between the parties: agreements on price floors, quantitative limits, quarterly monitoring, etc.
The duties are suspended during the agreement period. And it remains in place until the terms are violated or the deal expires.
I've seen agreements on everything from steel plate, to tomatoes, to sugar.
iamlucky13 wrote:
If DoC found Bombardier's lack of responses contemptuous, I missed that reporting.
Commerce based Bombardier, Inc.’s (Bombardier) preliminary dumping margin on adverse facts available (AFA) because Bombardier failed to provide information requested by Commerce’s AD questionnaire. The Petitioner alleged one dumping margin in the petition. As AFA, Commerce applied the sole dumping margin calculated in the petition for Canadian exports of aircraft, which is 79.82 percent. This rate will apply to all other producers/exporters as well.
CX747 wrote:
Have the Canadian and UK government put +$20 Billion in it's pocket just like was done for BBD and we are good to move forward.
CX747 wrote:ytz wrote:Time for Nav Canada to increase fees for US registered aircraft transiting Canadian airspace..... Sure the FAA will retaliate. But that just makes a few vacation trips more expensive. On the other hand, every US flight going to Europe or Asia will now be at a disadvantage against their Asian and European competitors. If they cost us airframe jobs, it's time for us to show them, we can cost them airline jobs.
Cost you airframe jobs? You mean the ones you illegally subsidized to get? The one that you didn't earn legitimately? The ones you tried to keep by dumping your product in a foreign country?
BBD CHEATED AND GOT CAUGHT. Time to figure out what to do now that reality has finally hit the program. Overall, this is not big news in the US. BBD is going to get hit for breaking the law, because they are guilty.
Again, we are all Allies. Let's treat one another as such. Sell the CSeries for a reasonable price to US carriers and we can all move on.
bigjku wrote:If the US subsidized a more efficient but otherwise uneconomical train engine...
bigjku wrote:It’s pretty simple. If the cost of production and the cost of R&D make the acquisition cost increase too much an operator then an operator can’t make back the acquisition premium over their existing cheaper options.
mjoelnir wrote:But the factories of BBD are in Northern Ireland not in Ireland.
washingtonflyer wrote:BBD refused to provide a Section D response at all. BBD notes in its press release that it hadn't manufactured a CS100 for Delta during the POI. That may or may not be true, but Section D deals with production of all aircraft - regardless of destination market during the POI. It did produce CS100s and CS300s and delivered them to European carriers in 2016 and 2017. So, to say that the company did not have the data is simply false.
As a practical and legal matter, the Federal courts have repeatedly ruled that as the administering agency, Commerce has the right and discretion to ask questions that it believes to be relevant to meeting its statutory duty. A party cannot pick and choose which questions to answer merely because its opinion of an issue differs from that of Commerce. Doing that strips the agency of its investigative mandate. BBD sought to strip Commerce of that mandate. And now BBD gets to pay the price for that decision.
StTim wrote:I would have loved to see the production costs for any of the first 100 787's compared to the sales price for those frames.
aerolimani wrote:CX747 wrote:ytz wrote:Time for Nav Canada to increase fees for US registered aircraft transiting Canadian airspace..... Sure the FAA will retaliate. But that just makes a few vacation trips more expensive. On the other hand, every US flight going to Europe or Asia will now be at a disadvantage against their Asian and European competitors. If they cost us airframe jobs, it's time for us to show them, we can cost them airline jobs.
Cost you airframe jobs? You mean the ones you illegally subsidized to get? The one that you didn't earn legitimately? The ones you tried to keep by dumping your product in a foreign country?
BBD CHEATED AND GOT CAUGHT. Time to figure out what to do now that reality has finally hit the program. Overall, this is not big news in the US. BBD is going to get hit for breaking the law, because they are guilty.
Again, we are all Allies. Let's treat one another as such. Sell the CSeries for a reasonable price to US carriers and we can all move on.
Great! And while you're at it, block Boeing from predatory pricing. Make a true "level playing field."
This is a schoolyard fight. Boeing is the bully, and BBD is the nerdy kid. The bully is always pushing the nerdy kid around, and the kid just can't get a break. Finally, the kid sees an opportunity to get back at the bully, but it's really just a setup, and now the bully is ratting the kid out to the teacher. The teacher just happens to be the bully's aunt, so she believes the bully's story, hook, line, and sinker. The nerd gets detention, has to wash the chalkboards, sweep the floors, and water the classroom plants for a year. Meanwhile, the bully has walked off with the nerd's lunch money.
At most, what should be happening is a slap on the wrist, a penalty specific to just the Delta deal so that the price is "fair," and a "don't do it again, or there will be more serious consequences." And even that, IMO, would be awfully generous to Boeing.
Quite frankly, I'm dismayed at the level of nationalism and protectionism that is being supported here on a.net; a site devoted to the the global industry that is aviation. I'd expect this on 4chan maybe, but not here. We're talking about one sale of 75 planes. That's a drop in the bucket compared to Boeing's order book. Boeing's suggestions of doom and gloom are the absolutely most pathetic of courtroom gymnastics. It's the legal/corporate equivalent of the worst fake soccer injury dive you've ever seen. It's a gross manipulation of the legal system.
Does anyone here actually believe that BBD has any intention of offering fire-sale prices on an ongoing basis, in order to completely destroy Boeing's (already pathetic) 737-7MAX sales? Since the DL deal, the only only significant order has been from AC. I would think that the lack of sales (in over 15 months!) would be evidence enough that BBD has no intentions of giving away their planes. This was a one-time loss leader sale. Delta knew how frustrated and desperate BBD were getting, and with the promise of becoming a major CSeries maintenance provider, they talked BBD into a bad deal.
SheikhDjibouti wrote:bigjku wrote:If the US subsidized a more efficient but otherwise uneconomical train engine...
More efficient, but otherwise uneconomical?
I am intrigued. How does that add up?bigjku wrote:It’s pretty simple. If the cost of production and the cost of R&D make the acquisition cost increase too much an operator then an operator can’t make back the acquisition premium over their existing cheaper options.
It's pretty simple you say. And yet I still don't understand it.
If the cost of production and the cost of R&D make the acquisition cost increase too much .... then despite the subsidies, the operator will not buy it, and it isn't a threat to the (cheaper) locally produced equivalent.
I'm sure the US is welcome to dump as many trains (or aircraft) in that category as they like, on any country. Quite who will buy them if they are more expensive, I can't say
I must be missing something here. Again, please help me understand your point.
washingtonflyer wrote:Nothing gets revealed to Boeing. Information submitted to the government agencies (Commerce and the Commission) is submitted pursuant to a protective order and the parties themselves may NOT view the other parties' confidential data.
"The danger for the U.S. is in setting a precedent for rivals to treat American aerospace companies badly, [Pilarksi] said.
By pushing the case before the U.S. International Trade Commission — a forum that's unilateral and therefore clearly biased — rather than before an international tribunal, Boeing will only encourage countries like China, Russia and Brazil that have big aerospace ambitions and large home markets to do the same to Boeing in the future, he said.
"You are giving your real competitors an excuse to say, if the U.S. can do this, we can do it," Pilarski said.
Richard Aboulafia, a prominent aviation analyst with the Teal Group, agreed, calling saying this week's ruling "a tactical victory but strategically a disaster" for Boeing.
LockheedBBD wrote:many321 wrote:What do you expect when you have mental cases running the American government at the moment.
Can you blame them for protecting their own interests?