The U.K. hotel claims multiple instances of male crew from PIA making unwanted advances towards female guests:

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1513397/uk ... le-guests/

Article quote:

"A hotel in the United Kingdom has told the Pakistan International (PIA) Airlines that it would not rent rooms to the airline’s crew anymore, Express News reported. The hotel told the national flag carrier that female guests at the hotel felt insecure in the presence of PIA’s male crew. It added that it had received multiple complaints of the airline’s male staff asking female guests at the hotel for their phone numbers. Therefore, the management added, it would not rent rooms to PIA’s male crew until action was taken against those involved in pestering female guests at the hotel."

Stealing from the buffet wasn't enough?

kjeld0d wrote:

Stealing from the buffet wasn't enough?

That was AI, and it doesn't compare to heckling women.

PIA has stories lol.

Seems to me that PIA needs to give everyone on their staff some anti-harassment training including pilots and sack them or exile them to the worst flights/destination they have if there are more complaints.

ltbewr wrote:

Seems to me that PIA needs to give everyone on their staff some anti-harassment training including pilots and sack them or exile them to the worst flights/destination they have if there are more complaints.

Really? You think the lack of diversity training isnhe issue? Seriously?

Good for the hotel, and shame on PIA and their employees.

bigjku wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Seems to me that PIA needs to give everyone on their staff some anti-harassment training including pilots and sack them or exile them to the worst flights/destination they have if there are more complaints.

Really? You think the lack of diversity training isnhe issue? Seriously?

It isn't training so much as letting them know harassment is an automatic termination. No excuses after training.

Obviously it is a corporate culture issue and the hiring managers need to be replaced with female managers quickly.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

Obviously it is a corporate culture issue and the hiring managers need to be replaced with female managers quickly.

I'm all for women's liberation. I've also been in those parts of the world and can tell you your statement is more easily said than done. Some parts of the world are very different than our part. At least the UK hotel took a stand on the issue, though.

lightsaber wrote:

bigjku wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Seems to me that PIA needs to give everyone on their staff some anti-harassment training including pilots and sack them or exile them to the worst flights/destination they have if there are more complaints.

Really? You think the lack of diversity training isnhe issue? Seriously?

It isn't training so much as letting them know harassment is an automatic termination. No excuses after training.

Obviously it is a corporate culture issue and the hiring managers need to be replaced with female managers quickly.

Lightsaber

More far reaching than a "corporate" culture IMHO. But what you are suggesting could be considered "cruel and unusual punishment".

Does that approach EVER work to get a date ? What are these idiots even thinking ??

smithbs wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Obviously it is a corporate culture issue and the hiring managers need to be replaced with female managers quickly.

I'm all for women's liberation. I've also been in those parts of the world and can tell you your statement is more easily said than done. Some parts of the world are very different than our part. At least the UK hotel took a stand on the issue, though.

I fully understand the culture. I went to grad school with several Pakistani raised men. Yes, it is more easily said than done,but only a shock to the corporate culture will change anything.

The training is to let employees know that the old behavior ends. Having 109% of crew hiring managers let's people know their replacement won't be like them.

Or more likely it will continue and PIA will go from press that only a.net reads to the cover story of the BBC, CNN, and FOX. That would hurt the Pakistani economy. The 18-35 adults of today hate that behavior and hate the fact old men in power perpetuate that behavior. And yes, I realize hate is a trigger word.

Evolve or die. I personally have no horse in the PIA race, so I don't care if they adapt or become the example.

Lightsaber

Yea .. western women just love sleazy Pakistani men who come and creep on them. They're really not too smart, these guys, are they?

TWA772LR wrote:

kjeld0d wrote:

Stealing from the buffet wasn't enough?

That was AI, and it doesn't compare to heckling women.

So true.

lightsaber wrote:

bigjku wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Seems to me that PIA needs to give everyone on their staff some anti-harassment training including pilots and sack them or exile them to the worst flights/destination they have if there are more complaints.

Really? You think the lack of diversity training isnhe issue? Seriously?

It isn't training so much as letting them know harassment is an automatic termination. No excuses after training.

Obviously it is a corporate culture issue and the hiring managers need to be replaced with female managers quickly.

Lightsaber

Oh that will open a can of worms on here. I would say a mix & training. However that kind of attitude is ingrained and can be very hard to change. Best of luck to them.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

No, it doesn't work, but if they think all "Western" women are easy and little more than sluts, it makes more sense. They feel superior and believe we should bow to them. Cultural diversity is a western fetish.

GF

In some parts of the world yes, it is not found. But when your work has you traveling to other countries your employer should go over the standards with you. Before they toss you into a place you could be sent to jail for the offense.

This is a combination of 2 factors. However we do need to be mindful this is PIA so in terms of infustructure and organisation it's a different outfit compared to other airlines (as this story demonstrates)
Firstly an airline which has not adjusted training or investment in educating crew to behave In ways that are acceptable within the routes and destinations they visit. I have not visited Pakistan so can not really comment on whether this is a behaviour consistent with how they are as a nation. However cultures are very different regardless so airlines need to factor this into some form of training.
Secondly however the crew themselves need to take responsibility as they are no doubt educated men (especially flight crew) so will fully realise repucutions of actions such as this when in European routes.

I must agree with many other posts here on congratulating the hotel for tackling this and taking such direct action. Many establishments I fear may have dealt with this in a far less direct way in fear of publicity and attention. However very glad to see that this organisation has tackled this in the way it has and by doing so has also forced PIA to now do something.

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

This is a combination of 2 factors. However we do need to be mindful this is PIA so in terms of infustructure and organisation it's a different outfit compared to other airlines (as this story demonstrates)
Firstly an airline which has not adjusted training or investment in educating crew to behave In ways that are acceptable within the routes and destinations they visit. I have not visited Pakistan so can not really comment on whether this is a behaviour consistent with how they are as a nation. However cultures are very different regardless so airlines need to factor this into some form of training.
Secondly however the crew themselves need to take responsibility as they are no doubt educated men (especially flight crew) so will fully realise repucutions of actions such as this when in European routes.

I must agree with many other posts here on congratulating the hotel for tackling this and taking such direct action. Many establishments I fear may have dealt with this in a far less direct way in fear of publicity and attention. However very glad to see that this organisation has tackled this in the way it has and by doing so has also forced PIA to now do something.

I applaud the hotel for going public. Then again, we don't know if it was female executives harrased who determine where there employees may stay.

More women book leisure travel then men (as wives typically book for families). The hotel had to look out for future business.

To others who point out PIA is different. So what? If they are hiring staff with this low of a level of basic respect, the airline is doomed.

No wonder the late arrival EK is #1 in the region.

Lightsaber

I don't get why these people can't keep their pants zipped & their wicks dry.

I'm a Muslim too but I certainly don't go about harassing & making unwanted advances on women...

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

Firstly an airline which has not adjusted training or investment in educating crew to behave In ways that are acceptable within the routes and destinations they visit. I have not visited Pakistan so can not really comment on whether this is a behaviour consistent with how they are as a nation. However cultures are very different regardless so airlines need to factor this into some form of training.

Which route/destination served by Pakistan Airlines where harassment *IS* acceptable? Because then we could educate the crews to only harass women on those routes/destinations.

Problem solved!

F27500 wrote:

Does that approach EVER work to get a date ? What are these idiots even thinking ??

Nothing!! You said it yourself, they're IDIOTS to think they can even get away with that stuff!

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

I don't get why these people can't keep their pants zipped & their wicks dry.

I'm a Muslim too but I certainly don't go about harassing & making unwanted advances on women...

I dont think religion has anything to do with it. And I have learnt that Corporate training almost never helps to completely eliminate the problem.

Its more of a cultural thing in the extended Punjab-Haryana-Western UP region which includes part of Northern India & Pakistan. Women are looked at as property and men are raised with an exaggerated sense of manhood (Mardaangi). Its not uncommon to hear men in your own circles, degree holders from respected Business Schools, casually talk of abducting women they like. A woman who has a drink or gets even slightly friendly is seen as fair game. White women are seen as "loose" and "easy". When you grow up seeing this all around you, there is enormous peer pressure to join in the misogyny, especially when you have seen your own fathers & uncles do the same shit.

Corporate training helps to a degree, but we have often seen people regress - especially on foreign trips. From my experience, Goa & Thailand brings out the worst in our people. Your otherwise very well behaved friend turns into a raging sex offender the moment the flight lands in Goa/Bangkok. Wont be surprised if some include London in that list.

standup video talking about this culture

BawliBooch wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

I don't get why these people can't keep their pants zipped & their wicks dry.

I'm a Muslim too but I certainly don't go about harassing & making unwanted advances on women...

I dont think religion has anything to do with it. And I have learnt that Corporate training almost never helps to completely eliminate the problem.

Nor do I. Street harassment of women has long been a problem in, for example, Italy:

http://www.romeescape.com/italia-men.html

"Sexual Harassment and Italian Men

As a woman, you must be aware of Italian attitudes towards unaccompanied females with sometimes lead to incidents of nuisance and groping. Many outdated notions and myths persist among Italian men, including the idea that all foreign women are wanton sluts who find latin lotharios irresistible and whose repeated insistence that they want to be left alone is merely a cute foreign way of saying "Please take me to bed, you delicious Italian stallion".

https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/po ... an-culture

"What’s the Italian national sport?” the chief inspector of Florence quizzed us during our January orientation at the Villa Le Balze. “Soccer?” No. “Rugby?” No. “Cricket?!” No. “It’s women!” he laughed. While his intent was comical, there is certainly truth behind the quip; the men in Florence have lived up to their “Italian Stallion” reputation. Any venture outside of the villa would not be complete without at least a handful of “Hey, bella, why don’t you come back with us?” propositions, a few car honks, and dozens of staring, hungry eyes. Catcalling occurs across the world, but for the Italians, it is very much associated with their cultural identity."

http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/201 ... ernalcity/

"Italy: Street Harassment in the Eternal City

So back to the Italian video… what is startling about it?

This is: The Italian newspaper experiment shows a particular population of offenders, policemen and law enforcement agents, in one of the 25 most visited cities in the world. The video is quite distressing to watch, at least for me it was. Seeing men in uniform catcalling a young lady passing by gives you a sense of disbelief and alarm."

It happens in many places in the world - it is so common it mostly goes unreported.

mariner

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

No, it doesn't work, but if they think all "Western" women are easy and little more than sluts, it makes more sense. They feel superior and believe we should bow to them. Cultural diversity is a western fetish.

GF

Winner of this thread. To be fair, Indians think this way too.

The ultimate reason they do this is the sexual conservatism of their home countries. In these countries, females are just not available or unwilling for western style dating or sexuality.

Hence they go abroad and act like tools and other pathetic low behavior

F27500 wrote:

Yea .. western women just love sleazy Pakistani men who come and creep on them. They're really not too smart, these guys, are they?

Excellent post, humorous but honest as well.

Completely unacceptable behaviour from these men. PIA should investigate and fire anyone found guilty of harassment. I'm glad the hotel took a stand as the women of the world deserve better than to be leered at by odious, lecherous men.

kitplane01 wrote:

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

Firstly an airline which has not adjusted training or investment in educating crew to behave In ways that are acceptable within the routes and destinations they visit. I have not visited Pakistan so can not really comment on whether this is a behaviour consistent with how they are as a nation. However cultures are very different regardless so airlines need to factor this into some form of training.

Which route/destination served by Pakistan Airlines where harassment *IS* acceptable? Because then we could educate the crews to only harass women on those routes/destinations.

Problem solved!

kitplane01,

I think your misinterpreting this somewhat. At no point has the post sighted harassment 'IS' acceptable in any route they visit or at any point. In order to ensure I represent this comment as it is intended and how everyone else received it no doubt I will elaborate for you. No doubt culture plays a part here in that in Pakistan or certain parts of the world men are seen and considered as more superior sometimes. Therefore if a woman suggest she is being harnessed in Pakistan or similar parts of the world then it may not be thought of with the same level of consideration and repercussion as it would here in Europe. Therefore training needs to be provided to ensure cultural education is in place to prevent this and get crews to act in a way which is in line with the culture and social behaviors based on that destination. I hope that is further clarification for you on the original post......

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

No, it doesn't work, but if they think all "Western" women are easy and little more than sluts, it makes more sense. They feel superior and believe we should bow to them. Cultural diversity is a western fetish.

GF

+1

My standard: you want to go for a lady? Stand on the line and earn some merits. Trying to be a "macho" (and I am Latino, so "machismo" is still something that many guys in my culture are still "proud" of) won't get you anywhere these days. And these guys certainly got it wrong.

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

Firstly an airline which has not adjusted training or investment in educating crew to behave In ways that are acceptable within the routes and destinations they visit. I have not visited Pakistan so can not really comment on whether this is a behaviour consistent with how they are as a nation. However cultures are very different regardless so airlines need to factor this into some form of training.

Which route/destination served by Pakistan Airlines where harassment *IS* acceptable? Because then we could educate the crews to only harass women on those routes/destinations.

Problem solved!

kitplane01,

I think your misinterpreting this somewhat. At no point has the post sighted harassment 'IS' acceptable in any route they visit or at any point. In order to ensure I represent this comment as it is intended and how everyone else received it no doubt I will elaborate for you. No doubt culture plays a part here in that in Pakistan or certain parts of the world men are seen and considered as more superior sometimes. Therefore if a woman suggest she is being harnessed in Pakistan or similar parts of the world then it may not be thought of with the same level of consideration and repercussion as it would here in Europe. Therefore training needs to be provided to ensure cultural education is in place to prevent this and get crews to act in a way which is in line with the culture and social behaviors based on that destination. I hope that is further clarification for you on the original post......

Maybe I need to be educated. I thought that almost all behaviors that constitute harassment in London would also be harassment in Pakistan. Are there behaviors that are acceptable in Pakistan but are harassment in London?

kitplane01 wrote:

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

Which route/destination served by Pakistan Airlines where harassment *IS* acceptable? Because then we could educate the crews to only harass women on those routes/destinations.

Problem solved!

kitplane01,

I think your misinterpreting this somewhat. At no point has the post sighted harassment 'IS' acceptable in any route they visit or at any point. In order to ensure I represent this comment as it is intended and how everyone else received it no doubt I will elaborate for you. No doubt culture plays a part here in that in Pakistan or certain parts of the world men are seen and considered as more superior sometimes. Therefore if a woman suggest she is being harnessed in Pakistan or similar parts of the world then it may not be thought of with the same level of consideration and repercussion as it would here in Europe. Therefore training needs to be provided to ensure cultural education is in place to prevent this and get crews to act in a way which is in line with the culture and social behaviors based on that destination. I hope that is further clarification for you on the original post......

Maybe I need to be educated. I thought that almost all behaviors that constitute harassment in London would also be harassment in Pakistan. Are there behaviors that are acceptable in Pakistan but are harassment in London?

I too would like to know what is acceptable in Pakistan that people in London have trouble with.

This will be interesting

The news story is totally baseless, according to PIA press release:

No UK Hotel Has Ever Refused PIA Hotel Accomodation

KARACHI, 25 SEPTEMBER, 2017: PIA spokesman has strongly denied a news story appearing in a section of Media that a hotel in UK has denied accommodation to PIA on any pretext. This story has been issued to malign PIA. The airline has contracts with leading hotels in UK and continues to acquire services of these fine hotels.

The story is totally baseless. PIA clarifies the news story for the information of readers. PIA has hotel service agreement with a fine hotel in Birmingham since September 2017 and continues to use their services to the satisfaction of both parties. However, PIA had a temporary arrangement with another hotel in Birmingham for three months prior to September 2017. The airline has hotel arrangements with very fine renowned hotels in UK and around the World.

The fact is that on the closure of a Hotel which PIA was utilizing before June 2017, had to close their operations in Birmingham so PIA had to look for another hotel for stay of its cabin crew. However, to accommodate our cabin crew PIA acquired services of a Hotel for only three months June-Aug before going for a formal agreement with new renowned hotel as per Airline requirements and to date PIA is continuing the services of this fine hotel on long term basis. It is also very interesting to note that in case PIA had a bad experience as stated in the news; how come a better hotel signed an agreement with PIA, is point to ponder.

PIA spokesman said that there was no issue of leaving any hotel upon its refusal as portrayed in news and especially in social media.
As far as the issue of misbehavior of male crew is concerned in the story, the same is also baseless. No PIA Cabin Crew is involved in any such practices and to correct the facts again for the valued readers; a thorough inquiry was carried out by PIA which declared the Cabin crew not guilty. The airline has hotel arrangements with very fine renowned hotels not only in UK but around the World and continues to utilize their services.

Source: PIA Press Release (September 25, 2017)

Ammad wrote:

The news story is totally baseless, according to PIA press release:

No UK Hotel Has Ever Refused PIA Hotel Accomodation

KARACHI, 25 SEPTEMBER, 2017: PIA spokesman has strongly denied a news story appearing in a section of Media that a hotel in UK has denied accommodation to PIA on any pretext. This story has been issued to malign PIA. The airline has contracts with leading hotels in UK and continues to acquire services of these fine hotels.

The story is totally baseless. PIA clarifies the news story for the information of readers. PIA has hotel service agreement with a fine hotel in Birmingham since September 2017 and continues to use their services to the satisfaction of both parties. However, PIA had a temporary arrangement with another hotel in Birmingham for three months prior to September 2017. The airline has hotel arrangements with very fine renowned hotels in UK and around the World.

The fact is that on the closure of a Hotel which PIA was utilizing before June 2017, had to close their operations in Birmingham so PIA had to look for another hotel for stay of its cabin crew. However, to accommodate our cabin crew PIA acquired services of a Hotel for only three months June-Aug before going for a formal agreement with new renowned hotel as per Airline requirements and to date PIA is continuing the services of this fine hotel on long term basis. It is also very interesting to note that in case PIA had a bad experience as stated in the news; how come a better hotel signed an agreement with PIA, is point to ponder.

PIA spokesman said that there was no issue of leaving any hotel upon its refusal as portrayed in news and especially in social media.
As far as the issue of misbehavior of male crew is concerned in the story, the same is also baseless. No PIA Cabin Crew is involved in any such practices and to correct the facts again for the valued readers; a thorough inquiry was carried out by PIA which declared the Cabin crew not guilty. The airline has hotel arrangements with very fine renowned hotels not only in UK but around the World and continues to utilize their services.

Source: PIA Press Release (September 25, 2017)

So, is this the truth, or is PIA playing CYA?

Don't know if this story is true but the cultural diversity movement, like the larger political correctness movement is lie invented by the left at the Univesity to cover up the fact that free enterprise deomocracies, invented in the West has created more good than all other systems combined.

lightsaber wrote:

Obviously it is a corporate culture issue and the hiring managers need to be replaced with female managers quickly.

Lightsaber

You know we're talking about male Pakistani nationals here, right? You're only correct insofar as the corporate culture is an extension of the national ditto. They are simply not brought up to respect women and, furthermore, are brought up to view 'western' women as prostitutes whom you can do with as you please.

kitplane01 wrote:

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

Which route/destination served by Pakistan Airlines where harassment *IS* acceptable? Because then we could educate the crews to only harass women on those routes/destinations.

Problem solved!

kitplane01,

I think your misinterpreting this somewhat. At no point has the post sighted harassment 'IS' acceptable in any route they visit or at any point. In order to ensure I represent this comment as it is intended and how everyone else received it no doubt I will elaborate for you. No doubt culture plays a part here in that in Pakistan or certain parts of the world men are seen and considered as more superior sometimes. Therefore if a woman suggest she is being harnessed in Pakistan or similar parts of the world then it may not be thought of with the same level of consideration and repercussion as it would here in Europe. Therefore training needs to be provided to ensure cultural education is in place to prevent this and get crews to act in a way which is in line with the culture and social behaviors based on that destination. I hope that is further clarification for you on the original post......

Maybe I need to be educated. I thought that almost all behaviors that constitute harassment in London would also be harassment in Pakistan. Are there behaviors that are acceptable in Pakistan but are harassment in London?

kitplane01,

You really are just being pedantic but as I am in the frame of mind to entertain you, I will. Again no mention of whether it '' CONSTITUTES '' or not was sighted. This is all to do with with cultural behavior in terms of what is perhaps ' considered as acceptable ' in Pakistan vs Europe. No one is saying that in any part of the world this is acceptable. However culture in Pakistan is not the same as Europe and hence the men involved here do not consider this as a serious issue based on what they perceive as acceptable.

Now hopefully you have been educated and now actually see the point for what it reflects and not manipulating it to mean something completely different.

This wouldn't be a problem for pilots. PIA will find another hotel or it will be forced to rent/buy apartments/villas, so pilots can harass chauffeur and household help.

BTW, What percentage of UK Hotels are owned by South Asians?

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

kitplane01,

I think your misinterpreting this somewhat. At no point has the post sighted harassment 'IS' acceptable in any route they visit or at any point. In order to ensure I represent this comment as it is intended and how everyone else received it no doubt I will elaborate for you. No doubt culture plays a part here in that in Pakistan or certain parts of the world men are seen and considered as more superior sometimes. Therefore if a woman suggest she is being harnessed in Pakistan or similar parts of the world then it may not be thought of with the same level of consideration and repercussion as it would here in Europe. Therefore training needs to be provided to ensure cultural education is in place to prevent this and get crews to act in a way which is in line with the culture and social behaviors based on that destination. I hope that is further clarification for you on the original post......

Maybe I need to be educated. I thought that almost all behaviors that constitute harassment in London would also be harassment in Pakistan. Are there behaviors that are acceptable in Pakistan but are harassment in London?

kitplane01,

You really are just being pedantic but as I am in the frame of mind to entertain you, I will. Again no mention of whether it '' CONSTITUTES '' or not was sighted. This is all to do with with cultural behavior in terms of what is perhaps ' considered as acceptable ' in Pakistan vs Europe. No one is saying that in any part of the world this is acceptable. However culture in Pakistan is not the same as Europe and hence the men involved here do not consider this as a serious issue based on what they perceive as acceptable.

Now hopefully you have been educated and now actually see the point for what it reflects and not manipulating it to mean something completely different.

I'm not trying to pedantic. I'm sorry if I came off that way.

With regards to harassment, you wrote that PIA airlines should teach their pilot to behave in a way that make sense for their destination. My point is that what you wrote is false. In fact, the pilots should not harass women anywhere, regardless of destination.

Are there behaviors (with regard to the harassment of women) that are OK in Pakistan but not in England?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

No, it doesn't work, but if they think all "Western" women are easy and little more than sluts, it makes more sense. They feel superior and believe we should bow to them. Cultural diversity is a western fetish.

GF

Agreed - well said!

kitplane01 wrote:

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

Maybe I need to be educated. I thought that almost all behaviors that constitute harassment in London would also be harassment in Pakistan. Are there behaviors that are acceptable in Pakistan but are harassment in London?

kitplane01,

You really are just being pedantic but as I am in the frame of mind to entertain you, I will. Again no mention of whether it '' CONSTITUTES '' or not was sighted. This is all to do with with cultural behavior in terms of what is perhaps ' considered as acceptable ' in Pakistan vs Europe. No one is saying that in any part of the world this is acceptable. However culture in Pakistan is not the same as Europe and hence the men involved here do not consider this as a serious issue based on what they perceive as acceptable.

Now hopefully you have been educated and now actually see the point for what it reflects and not manipulating it to mean something completely different.

I'm not trying to pedantic. I'm sorry if I came off that way.



With regards to harassment, you wrote that PIA airlines should teach their pilot to behave in a way that make sense for their destination. My point is that what you wrote is false. In fact, the pilots should not harass women anywhere, regardless of destination.

Are there behaviors (with regard to the harassment of women) that are OK in Pakistan but not in England?

kitplane01,

1) The use of the term ' making sense ' was never used in any post so to use this as a definition of what I have said is inaccurate and again manipulates the point that was made.

2) The point was not false as it was never sighted the pilots should or where justified in harassing woman in MY VIEW but considering perceptions of the crew in terms of there understanding. No mention or indication was present to not it being acceptable at any point !!!!!!

3) The point has been and always was and still is about accepting the fact that cultural differences exist in terms of how woman are viewed in other countries and this has an affect on how crew behave and so airlines and crew have responsibilities to ensure this doesn't happen.

I strongly object to your objections as they lack foundation and everything you have pushed back on lacked any substance in terms of how the view point was delivered. How this has been mis-understood and interrupted as you have noted is beyond me but I am optimistic through the detailed explanations, that my points have now been made clear for your understanding.

Rgds
Heathrowhunter

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Are there behaviors (with regard to the harassment of women) that are OK in Pakistan but not in England?

I would guess honor killings would be a start.

GF

Yeah, last night London acid attack was not funny either.

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:

kitplane01,

1) The use of the term ' making sense ' was never used in any post so to use this as a definition of what I have said is inaccurate and again manipulates the point that was made.

2) The point was not false as it was never sighted the pilots should or where justified in harassing woman in MY VIEW but considering perceptions of the crew in terms of there understanding. No mention or indication was present to not it being acceptable at any point !!!!!!

3) The point has been and always was and still is about accepting the fact that cultural differences exist in terms of how woman are viewed in other countries and this has an affect on how crew behave and so airlines and crew have responsibilities to ensure this doesn't happen.

I strongly object to your objections as they lack foundation and everything you have pushed back on lacked any substance in terms of how the view point was delivered. How this has been mis-understood and interrupted as you have noted is beyond me but I am optimistic through the detailed explanations, that my points have now been made clear for your understanding.

Rgds
Heathrowhunter

I think maybe we *are* miscommunication, but I'm not sure. I'll try and be clear.

I understand you don't think pilots should harass women.

You wrote "Therefore if a woman suggest she is being harnessed in Pakistan or similar parts of the world then it may not be thought of with the same level of consideration and repercussion as it would here in Europe. Therefore training needs to be provided to ensure cultural education is in place to prevent this and get crews to act in a way which is in line with the culture and social behaviors based on that destination. "

I understand what you wrote to mean that PIA pilots should (with respect to women and harassment) act differently depending on the destination.

Can you offer an example of a behavior to women that would be OK in Pakistan but is considered harassment in England?

If there are such behaviors, then I should agree with you that education in cultural differences might solve the problem. If what the pilots did is OK in Pakistan but harassment in England, then pilots should be educated as to what is acceptable in England.

But if there are no such behaviors, then the problems is not cultural differences, just misbehaving pilots. If what the pilots did is harassment in both countries, then the pilots don't need cultural difference training, they need to be educated to not harass women.

Cockpit & cabin crews (of both genders) having sex (and romance!) in their layovers is neither new nor shocking, and the hotel bar is a good place to start. When I was young and handsome I was lucky enough to stay in hotels where I "happened to meet" some male flight attendants and long lasting memories where made (Orlando, Miami, New York and Caracas come to mind).

I believe the problem is, as AASAP777 describes it, that in the western world there "rules" and "seduction procedures", meaning you basically need to assess if you are welcome, then show how charming and cool you are, earn some merits and of course accept quickly that a NO means NO. Western women (and men) in these places and situations do not play hard to catch, if they want you, they cooperate. If they don't, it's a mistake to carry on. Even if what you do is not technically harassment, it would be a waste of time.

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to get laid during layovers. I believe the problem is HOW you do it. It could be that some of these men do not know how to approach western women. Some posters have mentioned the need to "train" crews. This would be a hard one, because the goal is not to stop them from "trying" but to avoid crossing the line that would turn their initiative into harassment. How do you teach that in a classroom environment?

I'm glad someone mentioned italian men. Some female friends have told me that they have been approached by men in Italy... even while walking around with their husband or boyfriend! My best friend's husband was asked by an italian man to let him know if one day he wanted to dump her so that he could catch the first flight to collect her and bring her to Italy to live with him. However, because this man was "gorgeous", "classy" and "charming" they all took it well and had a laugh. Where the joke ends and poor taste begins is debatable. My point is maybe these PIA crew are being clumsy and rough?