Top up order -

4x 787-8

Previously listed as an unidentified order.


Boeing, Japan Airlines Announces Order for Four 787-8 Dreamliners
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-09-20- ... reamliners

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I'm surprised they didn't opt for the 787-9. Not much of a seat count difference but that could also be a reason they did order the -8

ikolkyo wrote:

I'm surprised they didn't opt for the 787-9. Not much of a seat count difference but that could also be a reason they did order the -8

The 788 isnt bad. It might not be optimized but it certainly has a role. When you add the size of the JAL fleet, they can operate more variants more effectively.

ikolkyo wrote:

I'm surprised they didn't opt for the 787-9. Not much of a seat count difference but that could also be a reason they did order the -8

Things such as size, weight and various charges come into play too. It could be worth their taking the 788 if the costs of operation are lower for them.

There are all sorts of reasons why the 788 might be a better fit in the fleet. Bottom line is literally the bottom line.

It also mentions using them on the domestic network so the shorter, lighter aircraft could be just what they need. In addition no delivery dates mentioned except the airline wants them in the fleet and working "by 2020". Could these four be 788 cancellations or deferments from another carrier?

Has anyone changed an order lately?

After reading JAL's press release, these four will be for domestic operations. This will be a first as all 788s & 789s delivered to date have been for international operations. Certainly four 788s will not be end and more 788 and 789 will be ordered in the future as the 763s and 772s age. It will be intersting whether any of the A350s get a domestic configuration too. From the sound of things, the initial A350s (both -900 & -1000) will be international birds replacing the 772ERs and 77Ws.

Channex757 wrote:

It also mentions using them on the domestic network so the shorter, lighter aircraft could be just what they need. In addition no delivery dates mentioned except the airline wants them in the fleet and working "by 2020". Could these four be 788 cancellations or deferments from another carrier?

Has anyone changed an order lately?

No. They are previously unidentified orders...

I think this makes a handful of -8s ordered this year after it seemed like no more were being ordered

If these four B788s are for domestic ops then they will be in a high density configuration close to 300 seats.

There has been a series of top-up orders for the -8 from major operators. Looks like maybe Boeing had the right idea with the smaller, lighter gear. It seems like there is at least a niche where the trip cost difference between the -8 and the -9 is big enough to tilt the profit advantage to the -8. That is especially believable because rumor has it that the -9 remains cheaper for Boeing to produce and Boeing would likely rather sell more -9s.

I think it's interesting that they will now use these new orders on their domestic network. JAL originally ordered 13 787-3s for these role, but up to now all the 787-8s these -3s were converted to have been used on long-haul flights for which the shorter wingspan of the 787-3 was not an issue. So now they finally to use the 787 as a 767 replacement.

They must also be happy with the performance of some of their very early 787-8s on the longer flights. They could also have chosen to order more 787-9s to replace some of these 787-8s on international routes and transfer those to the domestic network.

Amd it's good to see that the 787-8 is still getting orders, 6 new ones 2x El Al, 4 JAL so far this year plus one for the last terrible teen. There was also a commitment for 4 from Azerbaijan Airlines announced at the Paris Air Show.

I wonder for JPN domestic ops, would the MoM be a better fit in terms of capabilities and less capital costs than the 787, or even the A330R.

The MoM would be a very good fit for them. But they want these 787 before 2020, so the MoM will only become an option later on in the 767 replacement cycle. With the Olympics coming up they might also want to increase capacity. The MoM will have less seats then a domestic Japanese 788.

So they are largest 787 operator now ?

UAEflyer wrote:

So they are largest 787 operator now ?

Nowhere even remotely close to ANA.

mffoda wrote:

Channex757 wrote:

It also mentions using them on the domestic network so the shorter, lighter aircraft could be just what they need. In addition no delivery dates mentioned except the airline wants them in the fleet and working "by 2020". Could these four be 788 cancellations or deferments from another carrier?

Has anyone changed an order lately?

No. They are previously unidentified orders...

That has nothing to do with it. If JL has early slots on the 788 line (Seattle) then has someone moved theirs to the right allowing for early slots?

Carpethead wrote:

After reading JAL's press release, these four will be for domestic operations. This will be a first as all 788s & 789s delivered to date have been for international operations. Certainly four 788s will not be end and more 788 and 789 will be ordered in the future as the 763s and 772s age. It will be intersting whether any of the A350s get a domestic configuration too. From the sound of things, the initial A350s (both -900 & -1000) will be international birds replacing the 772ERs and 77Ws.

Still, amazes me how JAL is abusing these birds on domestic routes. The A330NEO would be better if they want a widebody or A321NEO. I thought Japan had an extensive network of high-speed trains, on which routes do they still fly these birds?

Dutchy wrote:

Carpethead wrote:

After reading JAL's press release, these four will be for domestic operations. This will be a first as all 788s & 789s delivered to date have been for international operations. Certainly four 788s will not be end and more 788 and 789 will be ordered in the future as the 763s and 772s age. It will be intersting whether any of the A350s get a domestic configuration too. From the sound of things, the initial A350s (both -900 & -1000) will be international birds replacing the 772ERs and 77Ws.

Still, amazes me how JAL is abusing these birds on domestic routes. The A330NEO would be better if they want a widebody or A321NEO. I thought Japan had an extensive network of high-speed trains, on which routes do they still fly these birds?

Why would adding completely new types to their fleet be better? Using the 787 on domestic flights giving them more flexibility to easily transfer them to their international fleet if necessary. And they are sticking to the 737, so no A321s for them, but they might opt for the 737-10.

Japan is a large country with a large population, they use the large wide-bodies on the routes from Tokyo to Fukuoka, Sapporo, Okinawa and also on the busiest flights to Osaka. The Shinkansen doesn't reach the whole country yet, and to cities like Fukuoka using the plane is still faster from Tokyo then going by train. Even with a shrinking population and an expanding Shinkansen network air travel within Japan has still increased significantly over the last 10 years.

Going off Boeing User Defined Reports the 4 788's for JL were booked on the 29th March 2017

Glad to see JAL still buying Boeing after surprising the world with a huge A350 order. Hope new 777-9 are part JAL's future even with the A350-1000.

Dutchy wrote:

Still, amazes me how JAL is abusing these birds on domestic routes. The A330NEO would be better if they want a widebody or A321NEO. I thought Japan had an extensive network of high-speed trains, on which routes do they still fly these birds?

Plenty of uses that are not train friendly, like Sapporo to Naha, or anywhere else in Japan to Naha and anywhere else in Japan to Sapporo. That aside, even with all the high speed trains and network, Japan still has an active civilian air sector. It's only four airframes, I'm sure one can be used three roundtrips from Tokyo to Osaka per day and still have a nice life.

Dutchy wrote:

Carpethead wrote:

After reading JAL's press release, these four will be for domestic operations. This will be a first as all 788s & 789s delivered to date have been for international operations. Certainly four 788s will not be end and more 788 and 789 will be ordered in the future as the 763s and 772s age. It will be intersting whether any of the A350s get a domestic configuration too. From the sound of things, the initial A350s (both -900 & -1000) will be international birds replacing the 772ERs and 77Ws.

Still, amazes me how JAL is abusing these birds on domestic routes. The A330NEO would be better if they want a widebody or A321NEO. I thought Japan had an extensive network of high-speed trains, on which routes do they still fly these birds?

Why would adding 2 completely new aircraft types to the fleet be wise for JAL? They would be losing money at that point.

Dutchy wrote:

Carpethead wrote:

After reading JAL's press release, these four will be for domestic operations. This will be a first as all 788s & 789s delivered to date have been for international operations. Certainly four 788s will not be end and more 788 and 789 will be ordered in the future as the 763s and 772s age. It will be intersting whether any of the A350s get a domestic configuration too. From the sound of things, the initial A350s (both -900 & -1000) will be international birds replacing the 772ERs and 77Ws.

Still, amazes me how JAL is abusing these birds on domestic routes. The A330NEO would be better if they want a widebody or A321NEO. I thought Japan had an extensive network of high-speed trains, on which routes do they still fly these birds?

Explain to me how using an A330 on the domestic routes would not be considered abuse of the planes vis-a-vis using a 787.

It is very logical to add 787 to the fleet. JAL has no A330 in the fleet, so buying a few A330 is not sensible.

It seems that at JAL the smaller wide body twin will be the 787 and the bigger wide body twin will be the A350.

jeffrey0032j wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Carpethead wrote:

After reading JAL's press release, these four will be for domestic operations. This will be a first as all 788s & 789s delivered to date have been for international operations. Certainly four 788s will not be end and more 788 and 789 will be ordered in the future as the 763s and 772s age. It will be intersting whether any of the A350s get a domestic configuration too. From the sound of things, the initial A350s (both -900 & -1000) will be international birds replacing the 772ERs and 77Ws.

Still, amazes me how JAL is abusing these birds on domestic routes. The A330NEO would be better if they want a widebody or A321NEO. I thought Japan had an extensive network of high-speed trains, on which routes do they still fly these birds?

Explain to me how using an A330 on the domestic routes would not be considered abuse of the planes vis-a-vis using a 787.

It is and the A339 is more optimised for short-medium haul routes. The 787 is considered more expensive so the capital cost is higher and the benefits - lower fuel cost - are not as prominent as they are on long haul routes.

Dutchy wrote:

jeffrey0032j wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Still, amazes me how JAL is abusing these birds on domestic routes. The A330NEO would be better if they want a widebody or A321NEO. I thought Japan had an extensive network of high-speed trains, on which routes do they still fly these birds?

Explain to me how using an A330 on the domestic routes would not be considered abuse of the planes vis-a-vis using a 787.

It is and the A339 is more optimised for short-medium haul routes. The 787 is considered more expensive so the capital cost is higher and the benefits - lower fuel cost - are not as prominent as they are on long haul routes.

Tell that to ANA, they have been flying dedicated 777-200ERs and 787s on domestic routes.

ikolkyo wrote:

I'm surprised they didn't opt for the 787-9. Not much of a seat count difference but that could also be a reason they did order the -8

Lower CASM is nice if the routes they are used on can fill the extra seats all the time. However reality is there are some routes the 788 can fly cheaper than the 9 based on actual seats sold vs smoke & mirrors.

Basically, what it means is that while the B789 will carry more pax for a little more fuel, a little more capital, a little more taxes right and left, the CASM reduction is only meaningful if the additional seats can be filled.

JAL's decision to opt for the smaller variant is IMO motivated by the fact that these birds will come to replace the mainly domestic B763's. A CASM reduction is meaningless when the B788 is already more aircraft than a B763.
IMO JL will move more B788's to the domestic fleet as they take in more B789's and retire older B763's.
In the entire equation, as a result of growth, JL has figured out that they have too few B788's on order to replace the older B763's one for one, so they're adding a few.

Another B787 order is pretty certain, when the younger B763's will be up for replacement in 10 years. However, Boeing may launch a new family of improved B787's by then as the older B787's will also almost be up for replacement.

The B777X is off the table IMO. The A350 + options cover all their needs and it looks like they prefer to gow with additional frequencies like they're doing now with LHR where they're launching the additional red eye with a B787.

Will these domestic 788s have 9-abreast Y, in contrast to the international fleet?

Lets remember Japan was the original market for the canceled 787-3 variant. Both ANA and JAL identified the need for a shorter range version with single class capacity of 290–330.

With 787-3 obviously not being available the -8 will have to do particularly since JAL can leverage economies of scale with its other 45 787s.

Looking at JAL website, they operate their domestic 763 with 261 seats and 772 with 375, so presumably, these 788 will slot in somewhere in between.

ikolkyo wrote:

I'm surprised they didn't opt for the 787-9. Not much of a seat count difference but that could also be a reason they did order the -8

It's put up or shut up time for 787 customers with deep discounts (not all launch customers). Most have lost free model hopping. All have lost free rollovers. Most will have to be confirmed and delivered before 2022, especially 788 options and orders. Expect to see a few more 788 orders to lock in THE price, rather than more obvious 9's or 10's.

Dutchy wrote:

jeffrey0032j wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Still, amazes me how JAL is abusing these birds on domestic routes. The A330NEO would be better if they want a widebody or A321NEO. I thought Japan had an extensive network of high-speed trains, on which routes do they still fly these birds?

Explain to me how using an A330 on the domestic routes would not be considered abuse of the planes vis-a-vis using a 787.

It is and the A339 is more optimised for short-medium haul routes. The 787 is considered more expensive so the capital cost is higher and the benefits - lower fuel cost - are not as prominent as they are on long haul routes.

Both would be abused, maybe the A339 less so. So it certainly does not make sense to bring on a new fleet to operate routes the plane is still not ideal for. Hence no A330s and more 788s.

Dutchy wrote:

(T)he A339 is more optimised for short-medium haul routes. The 787 is considered more expensive so the capital cost is higher and the benefits - lower fuel cost - are not as prominent as they are on long haul routes.

You can order the 787-8 with lower operating weights and engine thrusts than the maximum and the 787-8 is lighter than the A330-900.

JAL has 4 788s with line numbers in the 20s, and 3 with line numbers in the 30s. I would expect that they would convert their oldest (overweight) 788s to domestic service where the payload hit is not significant and put new full spec birds on international routes.

I am surprised I missed this thread. With all the negative talk about the 787-8 not getting more orders, it is interesting to see JAL order them. The model is not dead.

It makes sense for the -8s to go domestic as the 763s are removed. Should they go domestic, its likely to be single class service as was mentioned above. It doesn't make sense to have a small sub fleet domestic and another international but we'll see.

SonomaFlyer wrote:

It makes sense for the -8s to go domestic as the 763s are removed. Should they go domestic, its likely to be single class service as was mentioned above. It doesn't make sense to have a small sub fleet domestic and another international but we'll see.

It does, especially when you got such a large 787 fleet already in place, it doesn't really matter too much about where you fly these birds. And Japan's domestic market is quite unique in some form. ANA also got unique domestic config, and they only have two (!) domestic config 789s.

Michael

Dutchy wrote:

Carpethead wrote:

After reading JAL's press release, these four will be for domestic operations. This will be a first as all 788s & 789s delivered to date have been for international operations. Certainly four 788s will not be end and more 788 and 789 will be ordered in the future as the 763s and 772s age. It will be intersting whether any of the A350s get a domestic configuration too. From the sound of things, the initial A350s (both -900 & -1000) will be international birds replacing the 772ERs and 77Ws.

Still, amazes me how JAL is abusing these birds on domestic routes. The A330NEO would be better if they want a widebody or A321NEO. I thought Japan had an extensive network of high-speed trains, on which routes do they still fly these birds?

I would guess the composite fuselage can handle the stress of multiple presurizations on short routes better than the metal frame on the A330 can.