I posted a thread earlier about how I thought there should be a separate thread regarding Pakistan's aviation cause not alot of people know about what goes on regarding their aviation despite Pakistan being a key market of the ME3 (heck, the ME3 will practically be running on Pakistan flights after AI takes over US-India market).

So to sum up what we talked about in the previous thread where I asked whether you guys would support such a thread or not:

- We talked about whether there should be such a thread.

- We asked some good questions about PK - why did PK cancel their plans for ISB-LEJ-JFK, what happened to premiere service and their 787 order plans?

Etc.

The previous thread can be found here:

viewtopic.php?p=19821677#p19821677

Here's a good start: http://layoverhub.net/pia-lost-a310/
PIA actually lost one of their A310's in Europe.

MaxTrimm wrote:

Here's a good start: http://layoverhub.net/pia-lost-a310/
PIA actually lost one of their A310's in Europe.

Wow, how crazy can PK get? Crazier than even AI, and that's really far low.

They wanted to bring that A310 back for flights between Pakistan and Saudi for Muslim pilgrimage, but I honestly think that's a horrible idea. Why make non-avgeek people sit on an A310 out of all planes for hajj?

Ok, some thing positive now,
http://pkaviation.com/2017/07/27/pia-ge ... nes-today/
PIA received pretty new ex-Air Austral B-77W two months ago and is doing good for them.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bms

Ammad wrote:

Ok, some thing positive now,
http://pkaviation.com/2017/07/27/pia-ge ... nes-today/
PIA received pretty new ex-Air Austral B-77W two months ago and is doing good for them.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bms

That's great that it's doing well for them! It probably doesn't hurt that only PK flies nonstop Pakistan-Europe, unless TK counts.

I just wish they'd bring the ORD tag back to the ISB/LHE-BCN flight. That'd be unrealistic though, AA would just kick PK out of the ORD-BCN market.

So when is the ISB supposed to open?

PerfectGriffin wrote:

So when is the ISB supposed to open?

The new ISB was supposed to be open August 14 but now I think it's been delayed since the PM was ousted.

The roads that are supposed to connect the city with the new airport however, are predicted to be open this November.

For China Southern's flight between ISB and URC, who are their main customers?

c933103 wrote:

For China Southern's flight between ISB and URC, who are their main customers?

That I'm not sure. Always thought it'd make more sense for them to do ISB-CAN.

Air China to fly daily in W17 on the PEK-ISB-KHI-PEK route.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... ce-in-w17/

PIA resumed Thailand and Iraq services past week, BKK 3 weekly A320 and new destination Najaf 2 weekly A320, all from Karachi. First time narrow body jet is being used to Far East after 707/720, HS Trident era.

BKK re-inaugural was with a VietJet branded aircraft, one of four on wet lease from VJ.

Flightsimboy wrote:

Air China to fly daily in W17 on the PEK-ISB-KHI-PEK route.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... ce-in-w17/

That makes sense - connecting the capitals of two major countries, that of which have a partnership like the U.S. and Israel do - Pakistan and China have been friends for so many years, it's mind boggling that Air China wasn't flying this daily.

CanadaFair wrote:

PIA resumed Thailand and Iraq services past week, BKK 3 weekly A320 and new destination Najaf 2 weekly A320, all from Karachi. First time narrow body jet is being used to Far East after 707/720, HS Trident era.

BKK re-inaugural was with a VietJet branded aircraft, one of four on wet lease from VJ.

PIA's re-inaugural to BKK goes head to head with one of the only foreign carriers left in Pakistan - Thai Airways's KHI-BKK; There are often people who connect from Pakistan to places in Southeast Asia and Australia using Thai, so I'm hoping PK and Thai can coexist.

How is TK doing in Pakistan? They are deploying a332 to isb,khi, lhe on a daily basis

PIA do codeshare on Thai, was there a need to fly own service there that too with A320? if it was Kuala Lumpur bound 777 routed via BKK it might be better.

TK upgauged Pakistan to A332 in winter or April, A333 has also been used mostly to Lahore, 737s made their way in too occasionally even after upgauge.

ist2014 wrote:

How is TK doing in Pakistan? They are deploying a332 to isb,khi, lhe on a daily basis

I imagine well. They do fly alot of US-Pakistan traffic.

ist2014 wrote:

How is TK doing in Pakistan? They are deploying a332 to isb,khi, lhe on a daily basis

TK is really doing good. It is the only "Kind-of" European carrier having service in Pakistan. Fare and service to N.America is great and most of the time flight to and from Istanbul to Karachi is pretty full.

In 2014/15 ISB was TK top route load wise worldwide.

Ammad wrote:

ist2014 wrote:

How is TK doing in Pakistan? They are deploying a332 to isb,khi, lhe on a daily basis

TK is really doing good. It is the only "Kind-of" European carrier having service in Pakistan. Fare and service to N.America is great and most of the time flight to and from Istanbul to Karachi is pretty full.

What's "kind-of" European about TK? Part of Turkey is in Europe, as is IST as well as SAW.

BA most likely to resume Islamabad this year on the 787-9

LHR01 wrote:

BA most likely to resume Islamabad this year on the 787-9

That would be nice. Though I secretly hope KLM returns to Karachi.

LHR01 wrote:

BA most likely to resume Islamabad this year on the 787-9

Any source? Chances are slim as we have only 3.5 months left in current year and New Islamabad Airport is not operational yet.

ist2014 wrote:

How is TK doing in Pakistan? They are deploying a332 to isb,khi, lhe on a daily basis

Shameless post but I will let these videos speak about the service. Includes flights to and from Toronto. Been on TK A330s and 737s.

https://youtu.be/9M0qnbsB4X4?list=PLGXv ... dgontvBxUM

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

MaxTrimm wrote:

Here's a good start: http://layoverhub.net/pia-lost-a310/
PIA actually lost one of their A310's in Europe.

Wow, how crazy can PK get? Crazier than even AI, and that's really far low.

They wanted to bring that A310 back for flights between Pakistan and Saudi for Muslim pilgrimage, but I honestly think that's a horrible idea. Why make non-avgeek people sit on an A310 out of all planes for hajj?

I respect your quote but bro u can't compare a Mighty whale AI with a small fleet of PIA.
No matter whatever be the issue AI is a glory .Whatever problem happens it has capacity,capability to survive but PIA cannot .
U cannot compare PIA TO AI.

adi00654 wrote:

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

MaxTrimm wrote:

Here's a good start: http://layoverhub.net/pia-lost-a310/
PIA actually lost one of their A310's in Europe.

Wow, how crazy can PK get? Crazier than even AI, and that's really far low.

They wanted to bring that A310 back for flights between Pakistan and Saudi for Muslim pilgrimage, but I honestly think that's a horrible idea. Why make non-avgeek people sit on an A310 out of all planes for hajj?

I respect your quote but bro u can't compare a Mighty whale AI with a small fleet of PIA.
No matter whatever be the issue AI is a glory .Whatever problem happens it has capacity,capability to survive but PIA cannot .
U cannot compare PIA TO AI.

Well AI is run in a bad manner in my defense, India could be doing a much better job with AI. Assuming Pakistan has the potential to get their act together, PK should at least be the preferred choice from North America and Europe to Pakistan - the fact that Pakistan is not able to get their act together because of the current scenario, is proof that PK wont survive and the ME3 will continue to run xxx-Pakistan flights for a long time to come.

Ammad wrote:

LHR01 wrote:

BA most likely to resume Islamabad this year on the 787-9

Any source? Chances are slim as we have only 3.5 months left in current year and New Islamabad Airport is not operational yet.

I think BA will come to ISB someday but not until the new airport is open at the earliest.

Ammad wrote:

LHR01 wrote:

BA most likely to resume Islamabad this year on the 787-9

Any source? Chances are slim as we have only 3.5 months left in current year and New Islamabad Airport is not operational yet.

His post was based on guessing in the BA to announce new route thread.

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

Ammad wrote:

LHR01 wrote:

BA most likely to resume Islamabad this year on the 787-9

Any source? Chances are slim as we have only 3.5 months left in current year and New Islamabad Airport is not operational yet.

I think BA will come to ISB someday but not until the new airport is open at the earliest.

BA will never come to ISB due to security concerns largely and also ME3.
With USA and Trump pushing more actions towards declaring Pakistan an terrorist state and impose sanctions it is highly unlikely to happen anytime.

Pakistan CAA and Oman seem to be having issues, Multan-Muscat route not allowed for any airline, though Salam Air did manage to do an inaugural flight in May.

Flightsimboy wrote:

LHR01 wrote:

BA most likely to resume Islamabad this year on the 787-9

That would be nice. Though I secretly hope KLM returns to Karachi.

I hope so too. I don’t care for BA, although it would be great if they did. When KL returns, that is when we will really have a reason to celebrate. My gut feeling is that KL will come first, although it’s anybody's guess.

FoxtrotSierra wrote:

Flightsimboy wrote:

LHR01 wrote:

BA most likely to resume Islamabad this year on the 787-9

That would be nice. Though I secretly hope KLM returns to Karachi.

I hope so too. I don’t care for BA, although it would be great if they did. When KL returns, that is when we will really have a reason to celebrate. My gut feeling is that KL will come first, although it’s anybody's guess.

No European airline would come first rather than BA.But u propel should know the reality that Pakistan is not safe this is what the EU carriers think and they have low yield .Mostly ME3 issue also.
If USA imposes sanctions then it would be tough for Pakistan airports to get EU carriers.
Not to demean Pakistan but as a terror support nation Foreign carriers have no presence now in Pakistan

Well first just about every country has there issue upon security and threats, it's not just Pakistan. European carriers fly to number of countries where there are threats. Just about every nation has support for group, that other nations will say there threat to peace etc. Anyway this is Airliners not a political forum.

I can see BA returning to ISB or LHE, with a 787 for starters. Why? Diplomatic and business traffic between to countries, as they do share a lot of ties together. Pakistani Diaspora is huge in Europe, and particularly in England. Pakistani are big investor in England from the entertainers, athletes, politicians, big land lords, businessman, and etc. Lot of Pakistani students study in England, due to there education aligning with England. Also the trade as the Punjab region of Pakistan has lot of cargo traffic to Europe and else where from agriculture, pharmaceuticals, sporting goods, textiles, and etc. Here are some route examples of cities with decent size Pakistani diaspora; MAN - LHR - ISB, CDG - LHR - ISB, YYZ- LHR-ISB, IAH-LHR-ISB, and etc. Plus you need a US visa or Schengan visa to transit in Europe if I am correct. If AA and other One World members decided to throw on codeshare on the flight, I think it will be fantastic. If they wanted too, maybe they can try PK with level, though I think BA will be a better fit. Maybe BA can do Pakistan via Ashgabat, Baku, IST or any other Central Asian country so the crew can stay there? Also see LH returning to Pakistan due to same reason, if UA, AC, SK can slap on a code share. I think it can do.

As I spend a lot of time in Pakistan, cause of work. I found it a safe country. There is trouble here and there. Main thing is the media wants to stir it up. You have to remember your in a 3rd world country, not Switzerland. Even my other work colleagues enjoy Pakistan. Number of foreigners here as I encountered that work here or visit for business were Indonesian, Japanese, Koreans, Thai, Chinese, Brits, Americans, Turkish, and etc. Also encountered lot of Europeans who go hiking, and trekking in the Northern Areas, that are beautiful as the Alps. Now as the situation in Pakistan is back to normal even city of Karachi that once, had lot of chaos for sometime is back on it's feet, and is thriving. Islamabad is totally, different city though. It really secured, and well planned and developed. Infact Islamabad is #2 best capital in the world after Washington DC, in terms of planning.

BA pulled due to bombing at the Marriott Hotel, other than that it did well. Lufthansa did in Lahore, also same reason I mentioned for why BA will do good can also apply to LH, if UA and other Star Alliance partners slaps a code share on it will do well or okay. Only issue was they were sending A300 at the time, I think they switched later to A330. Though also issue was they removed the Karachi tag, and the crew stopped staying in Lahore due to safety started doing lay overs in DXB or MCT. Though all these incidents are in Pakistan past.

As cricketers have shown, Pakistan is safe. It just hosted a 5 day tour with international cricketers, Also hosted another match back in the Spring, as well as Zimbabwe recently played a friendly match. Footballers Ronaldhino and others came for a match as well. As well as many other talents do come to Pakistan, its not something you hear about daily, though Pakistani live like rest of the world.

Issues I see, is that Gulf carriers can fly to Pakistan and India, turn around quickly. They don't need to pay for Hotel, transportation, security, and etc for there crews. European carriers have to do so. Fuel prices and taxes are high in Pakistan another factor.

Crews that stay a night in Pakistan are Thai, Malindo Air, Air China, and Turkish Airlines as far as I know.

If the Pakistani CAA , can enhance there airport infrastructure, from the tarmac to the inside, that will be excellent.

Pakistan is not that safe, but I agree that their market is heavily underserved and that PK should focus on bettering their operations so they can serve the Pakistani market - else Pakistanis will really have no option home except the ME3 who charge alot for flights already

adi00654 wrote:

FoxtrotSierra wrote:

Flightsimboy wrote:

That would be nice. Though I secretly hope KLM returns to Karachi.

I hope so too. I don’t care for BA, although it would be great if they did. When KL returns, that is when we will really have a reason to celebrate. My gut feeling is that KL will come first, although it’s anybody's guess.

No European airline would come first rather than BA.But u propel should know the reality that Pakistan is not safe this is what the EU carriers think and they have low yield .Mostly ME3 issue also.
If USA imposes sanctions then it would be tough for Pakistan airports to get EU carriers.
Not to demean Pakistan but as a terror support nation Foreign carriers have no presence now in Pakistan

ME3 are foreign, so is Air China, Thai Airways, SriLankan....

Several people have mentioned that Euro carriers fly to relatively unsafe countries - that is true. I think the issue with Pakistan is that (i) it doesn't have the super high yielding traffic that say some unsafe African countries do, this helps justify the route, (ii) it doesn't have a lot of UK/EU origin business traffic - meaning BA isn't losing a corporate account because they don't serve Pak, (iii) rightly or wrongly, I think western, namely EU carriers, are somehow more comfortable with crime then they are religious terrorism. Again, I am not agreeing or disagreeing, but I feel like some businesses feel you can have security and guard against robbery but you can't really guard against bombs targeting foreigners / non muslims or even local sectarian battles and (iv) the ME3 - they are so entrenched in Pak that it is really hard to compete for Pak origin traffic with say one daily flight ISB-LHR. Pak business people will want FF relationships with the ME3 as they really only serve enough destinations to meet their travel needs. Also one thing to note - Pakistan is not even in the top 50 source countries for the UK for inbound visits in 2016.

Here are some companies I know personally that operate in Pakistan: Harbin, GE, ABB, HSBC, Halliburton, Shell, ENI,OXY, and etc.

I think a city like Islamabad, has an exception. Islamabad is totally different setting than the rest of Pakistan. Roaming around Nigeria, Angola. Congo, and Chad have the same issues with safety. That the European carriers fly too. You guy's are basing Pakistan like what you see on show called Homeland. If you haven't been there, or know the environment you can't really talk. Pakistan has reduced it crime tremendously. I feel like Islamabad and has enough business traffic to support such route. I mean, I am basing this off the reason why i see it doing well. BA had a 5 time weekly flight to Islamabad... So I think that says a lot. LH had 4/5 times to Lahore. Lufthansa can even fly it's LH Cityline to Pakistan.

Well, that's how route work. People would think different ways to make a route viable. Islamabad is possible throw on One world Code share (ex AA), diplomats from the US will being using the route as well. As AA is getting rid of there code share with Etihad, it chance for BA.


I wonder when, Garuda or Malaysia Airline will return to Pakistan, as there destination for Muslim tourism, going such places as Australia, Thailand, Far east etc.

Despite being a pro-KHI person, I agree that ISB and LHE would probably have the better business cases for a flight. KHI may be a larger city, but it's not safer per say.

I wonder when, Garuda or Malaysia Airline will return to Pakistan, as there country is Muslim tourist destination as well as good connection for, going such places as Australia, Thailand, Far east etc.

Why is it so hard for the Private carriers in Pakistan such as Serene Air, Air Blue, and Shaheen to expand?

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

adi00654 wrote:

FoxtrotSierra wrote:

I hope so too. I don’t care for BA, although it would be great if they did. When KL returns, that is when we will really have a reason to celebrate. My gut feeling is that KL will come first, although it’s anybody's guess.

No European airline would come first rather than BA.But u propel should know the reality that Pakistan is not safe this is what the EU carriers think and they have low yield .Mostly ME3 issue also.
If USA imposes sanctions then it would be tough for Pakistan airports to get EU carriers.
Not to demean Pakistan but as a terror support nation Foreign carriers have no presence now in Pakistan

ME3 are foreign, so is Air China, Thai Airways, SriLankan....

I was quoting about EU carriers.I didn't say that ME3 presence is low in Pakistan.Regarding Air China and Srilankan they are Pakistan so called neighbour friends.
See the fact is low demand to fill a flight and security factors are the main reason for EU carriers.They need premium traffic which is very low.
ME3 usually takes the traffic so low room for EU.Regarding African countries no matter security reasons they have a good loads of pax to sustain a flight.
No matter how beautiful is Pakistan the terror acts and terror support funding and security reasons are the main drawback for their growth and aviation

adi00654 wrote:

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

adi00654 wrote:

No European airline would come first rather than BA.But u propel should know the reality that Pakistan is not safe this is what the EU carriers think and they have low yield .Mostly ME3 issue also.
If USA imposes sanctions then it would be tough for Pakistan airports to get EU carriers.
Not to demean Pakistan but as a terror support nation Foreign carriers have no presence now in Pakistan

ME3 are foreign, so is Air China, Thai Airways, SriLankan....

I was quoting about EU carriers.I didn't say that ME3 presence is low in Pakistan.Regarding Air China and Srilankan they are Pakistan so called neighbour friends.
See the fact is low demand to fill a flight and security factors are the main reason for EU carriers.They need premium traffic which is very low.
ME3 usually takes the traffic so low room for EU.Regarding African countries no matter security reasons they have a good loads of pax to sustain a flight.
No matter how beautiful is Pakistan the terror acts and terror support funding and security reasons are the main drawback for their growth and aviation

Have you ever visited Pakistan?

Don't turn this into political debate, by hating on different countries.

According to US, Iran is in the same situation, but KLM, AF, BA, LH all fly there....

The blessing of traveling and exploring new places is respecting one another, vs bashing different nations ... Like I mention before almost every nation support some group, that another will say it's disruption to global peace.

It's rather comical reading embarrassing story after embarrassing story about PIA. I don't believe there is room in today's aviation market for such an incompetent airline to exist. If drastic things have changed in very recent times, I will rethink, but I don't think they should be serving Europe at all.

MANMatthew wrote:

It's rather comical reading embarrassing story after embarrassing story about PIA. I don't believe there is room in today's aviation market for such an incompetent airline to exist. If drastic things have changed in very recent times, I will rethink, but I don't think they should be serving Europe at all.

I don't like the way how PIA is being managed. As the government is just raping them for there luxury. I do have some hope for the Private carriers, but the government always favor PIA obviously.

Maybe if PIA can reschedule there flights, from east bound to west bound, and vice versa. If they Pakistani government can ease visa regulation, and also if Pakistan CAA can upgrade there airports. Then PIA can be possibly cheap alternative from Europe to South/Southeast Asia and Middle East etc.


Though what make it difficult for the Pakistani private carriers to expand? Or even come to agreement with other foreign carriers? I notice Shaheen and Air Blue both tried England, and failed. Shaheen recently started flying too CAN, and I believe BKK or KUL.

All users are reminded to stay on topic that being on Pakistan Aviation. This includes keeping all flamebait and political commentary out of the discussion.

LH658 wrote:

MANMatthew wrote:

Shaheen recently started flying too CAN, and I believe BKK or KUL.

Shaheen served Kuala Lumpur for a few months while Bangkok launch was canceled.

PIA dropped Bahrain sometime this year.

This may be a bit old nwes but anyone know the latest on PIA CEO Bernd (ex Lufthansa employee) being sacked?

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

I just wish they'd bring the ORD tag back to the ISB/LHE-BCN flight. That'd be unrealistic though, AA would just kick PK out of the ORD-BCN market.

PK could definitely do BCN-ORD, even with AA service around. A more viable option, however, may be OSL-ORD. Oslo is a huge untapped nonstop market for Chicago (as has been discussed extensively on this forum), and PK has the means to extend one of their existing routes there. They wouldn't necessarily have to drop CPH for that either. It could just be a KHI-OSL-ORD routing.

777GE90 wrote:

This may be a bit old nwes but anyone know the latest on PIA CEO Bernd (ex Lufthansa employee) being sacked?

Went on vacation and didn't return despite summons.

TSA125 wrote:

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

I just wish they'd bring the ORD tag back to the ISB/LHE-BCN flight. That'd be unrealistic though, AA would just kick PK out of the ORD-BCN market.

PK could definitely do BCN-ORD, even with AA service around. A more viable option, however, may be OSL-ORD. Oslo is a huge untapped nonstop market for Chicago (as has been discussed extensively on this forum), and PK has the means to extend one of their existing routes there. They wouldn't necessarily have to drop CPH for that either. It could just be a KHI-OSL-ORD routing.

True, that would be nice as well. I'd love to see PK bring back their planes to ORD, but I don't think that'll ever happen as they can barely hang on to their nonstop JFK-LHE.

PIA is operating 4X weekly to YYZ and just twice weekly to JFK. JFK is loss making route for PIA. For N.A. Best thing PIA could do is to extensive code share with TK and start daily flight one each from KHI, ISB, and LHE to IST with onward connection via TK metal.