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speedbored
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:23 pm

parapente wrote:
'The number of unique city-pair connections exceeded 18,400 in 2016, over 700 more than in 2015 and almost double the connectivity by air 20 years ago.'IATA

True. But in the same timeframe, annual passenger traffic has close to tripled from 1.4bn to 3.7bn.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.AIR.PSGR

parapente wrote:
Personally I do think it is happening and there is no reason to suggest it won't accelerate.Aircraft such as the 787 (particularly),the 350 and yes the A321NEO are (IMHO) exactly the right aircraft to develop this trend.

Just looking at the unique city pairs graph on page 13 of the report I linked shows that the rate of growth of unique city pairs has been pretty consistent since 2000, so it has actually been reducing year-on-year as a percentage of total traffic. If anything, the graph shows that the rate of growth in city-pairs has reduced slightly since 787 EIS. If the 787 has caused a significant switch towards P2P, it is definitely not showing up in the data.

I'm not saying that P2P traffic / routes hasn't increased - it has. But not as rapidly as traffic in general has also increased.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:22 pm

armchairceonr1 wrote:
I think here is very much misunderstanding about Boeing financials overall, including their balance sheet and deferred costs considering 787-program. Deferred cost represent 33% of Boeing's total assets, meanwhile their equity is gone under water 2000 million$. During last years Boeing liabilities has increased tens of thousands millions and same time Company use huge amount of money to dividends and share buybacks. This is not big problem, if production ramp-up with 787-10, 737MAX and future 777X goes smoothly. But Boeing balance sheet is so weak, that it has to stay profitable coming years. Their directors has used huge sum company's money to push up stock price and own bonuses.


Keep in mind that by utilizing cash flow to buy back shares Boeing is in a position to issue more shares if it needed to raise capital. Tracking their shares outstanding it looks like they were able to do this in 2009-2013 after buying down shares from 2006-2008. EPS has generally been in the $7-8 range but is projected at around $10.

My guess is that if they wanted they could issue stock to raise $10-$20 billion if they really wanted to. They have bough back stock over the last 4 years worth roughly $40 billion today in book price. Last estimate I saw in March was they had spent roughly $22 billion doing this at an average price of $169 per share. It's now priced at $250 a share.

If we issues 10% new stock at accepted a 15% dilutitpn of price (which is probably high) we could raise $12 billion plus in very short order and still have far fewer shares outstanding now than the company did just a couple years ago.

Overall given the stock price the stock buyback was a temendously successful on for the companies financial position.

So yes Boeing has a negative net worth. But it has spent $22 billion to buy back what is $40 billion worth of value. It's carried on the balance sheet as treasury stock.

Overall Boeing has a better current ratio than Airbus. It has about the same debt outstanding with 3 times the market capitalization of Airbus and a better PE ratio now and projected. I don't see a company with balance sheet issues beyond one looking and seeing a negative equity position. But that was a conscious effort in buying back stock which positions Boeing well to raise whatever funds it wanted or needed through stock issues without being overly dilutive to its shareholders.

Paying off its debt and amassing a mountain of cash didn't really seem like it would serve much purpose. It would make the equity higher (around $12 billion) but would have added less value for shareholders. Seems like they made the right call.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:48 pm

Folks, for those that have any doubts about the impact of the 787, look at the stock price performance over the past few years. As 787 deliveries have occurred and performance has been validated the value of the stock has increased because investors have a much better view of future earnings. Stock buy backs and dividends require cash which can not be accomplished with a poor balance sheet.

In other words Investors are confident Boeing with capture 60-70% of the small wide body market. This is now baked into the current price

Now look at EADS. The stock has underperformed as the market waits to see about the real world performance of the new 350, 321NEO and 330neo.

I plan to take a good portion of my BA gains and move it to EADS as I think the latter is now undervalued. In other words I think the 321NEO and 350 issues will be ironed out resulting in improved earnings growth.

Regards the discussion on point to point I think it is fair to say that point to point has not changed much over the past few years compare to the long term tend. This is exactly as BA predicted. It was AB who thought otherwise and invested in the 380. The 380 failed not because it didn’t meet its performance targets but because AB misjudged the value of PtP vs Hub to Hub.

I think AB has done a good job positioning the 350 and 321 to get back on track with the long term trend.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:50 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
I plan to take a good portion of my BA gains and move it to EADS as I think the latter is now undervalued. In other words I think the 321NEO and 350 issues will be ironed out resulting in improved earnings growth.


I did the same.
 
parapente
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:50 pm

Interesting share price thoughts.Is the 380 debacle a worry or do you think that has already been discounted in the price?If it has then yes it's a buy.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:04 pm

My main concern on Airbus stock is two fold.

The first is if they can get the full impact of cost efficiency from production experience and downsize their workforce as they gain that expertise.

The second is I am slightly worried about how efficient and scaleable the A320 production line is as it is quite dispersed.

That said I do think the stock is undervalued. If they can string together 5 or 6 clean quarters it will go up 15-20% I would think.
 
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allegro
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:19 pm

Stitch wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
I plan to take a good portion of my BA gains and move it to EADS as I think the latter is now undervalued. In other words I think the 321NEO and 350 issues will be ironed out resulting in improved earnings growth.


I did the same.


And I remember Stitch buying Boeing at $39 ... so I am buying EADS too :D
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:30 pm

Stitch wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
I plan to take a good portion of my BA gains and move it to EADS as I think the latter is now undervalued. In other words I think the 321NEO and 350 issues will be ironed out resulting in improved earnings growth.


I did the same.

Uh oh, make sure you disclose that you are an Airbus shareholder in addition to a Boeing one in the next A v B debate :spin:
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:48 pm

I think the 380 issues and costs are reflected into the current share price. Re the 320 I think AB have proved that they know what they are doing. I think the Chinese assembly line was a mistake but not material re the share price.

What has held me back are concerns about the unknowns surrounding the future of the A400 and launcher business( SpaceX will disrupt this significantly).

I'd appreciate any input.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:24 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
I think the 380 issues and costs are reflected into the current share price. Re the 320 I think AB have proved that they know what they are doing. I think the Chinese assembly line was a mistake but not material re the share price.

What has held me back are concerns about the unknowns surrounding the future of the A400 and launcher business( SpaceX will disrupt this significantly).

I'd appreciate any input.


My only concern with the A320 is it has to already account for the majority of their cash flow. Why aren't they turning a strong profit already?

The A400m is a concern but shouldn't be that huge of one. What is a concern to me is if the operating margin can get to where it needs to be.

At some point backlog and production needs to translate into operating margins. For the last 5 years at least their margins have lagged most of the time. The big question is if that is circumstantial or structural.

As for the launcher business SpaceX is going to take everyone's lunch IMHO.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:44 pm

Res P2P versus Hub operations. What often seems not to be noticed is that excellent one stop (1Stop?) has largely replaced P-hub-hub-P. Admittedly not many have had to take the full 4 leg trip, but misery of three legs versus two leg is substantial.
 
Eyad89
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:50 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Folks, for those that have any doubts about the impact of the 787, look at the stock price performance over the past few years. As 787 deliveries have occurred and performance has been validated the value of the stock has increased because investors have a much better view of future earnings. Stock buy backs and dividends require cash which can not be accomplished with a poor balance sheet.




Two points here:
- The stock price does not necessarily represent the financial health of a company. It represents how much other investors are willing to pay to get those shares. It only represents people's expectations. It has nothing directly to do with 787 and its financial condition. Some shares go up even though the company is making losses because it managed to lose less than expected. Other companies could have their stock go down even though they are making profit because their profits were less than expected.

- getting a lot of cash will be demonstrated in the cash flow statement, balance sheet is different. While cash is a factor in balance sheet, Strong/weak balance sheet can be measures by different ratios such as debt to equity ratio, current ratio, quick ratio etc. Those ratios tell you the financial condition of a company, not stock price or cash only. A strong balance sheet means more assets and less liabilities.

Stock price and cash alone won't tell you how strong a balance sheet is. There are just so many other factors.
 
WorldFlier
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production to 14x per month

Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:11 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
For those who might not use the 'Seattle Times' link, here's what may be the bigger news:

'Muilenburg also said Boeing has decided that 787 order prospects are sufficiently healthy that it can spread the deferred cost of the program over 1,400 planes, up from the current assumption of 1,300.'
How is a change in the accounting block bigger news that a change in the production rate?


It means that deferred costs are still a moving target.



All deferred costs are known, that's how they're "deferred" - are you saying there are costs that Boeing's Auditors failed to find? That would be quite the egg on their face or possibly the scandal of the year, in the financial world anyways.

What they're saying is they are comfortable enough to spread those costs among more frames (because they're going to sell more frames) thereby increasing the accounting "profit" of the 1,300-X frames, at the expense of the last 100 (where X is the number of frames already delivered - as you cannot book profit until you deliver your goods, per GAAP).

This "trick" has no effect on the cash flow of the 787 program as everything has already been paid for that has happened in the past. Suppliers ain't gonna wait years to get paid, I assure you of that...
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:27 pm

Eyad89, I think you get my point.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:48 am

Planeflyer wrote:

Now look at EADS. The stock has underperformed as the market waits to see about the real world performance of the new 350, 321NEO and 330neo.



It's not clear what you mean. If you mean sales performance of the A321NEO and A350, that's quite clear. They are doing well (A350) and great (A321neo).
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:10 am

I'm wondering, could someone with a decent knowledge of programme accounting please give a comprehensive but succinct explanation of what accounting blocks are in relation to a programme such as the 787, so that when these questions come up we can point back to it and avoid the same ongoing back and forths over what it is or isn't?

V/F
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:23 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
I'm wondering, could someone with a decent knowledge of programme accounting please give a comprehensive but succinct explanation of what accounting blocks are in relation to a programme such as the 787, so that when these questions come up we can point back to it and avoid the same ongoing back and forths over what it is or isn't?

V/F

I could try :) At June 30, 2017 commercial aircraft programs inventory included the following amounts related to the 787 program: $32,047 of work in process (including deferred production costs of $26,461 ), $2,608 of supplier advances, and $3,390 of unamortized tooling and other non-recurring costs. At June 30, 2017 , $24,246 of 787 deferred production costs, unamortized tooling and other non-recurring costs are expected to be recovered from units included in the program accounting quantity that have firm orders and $5,605 is expected to be recovered from units included in the program accounting quantity that represent expected future orders.

This means that their  Inventories, net of advances and progress billings $42,453 is mostly deferred costs related to the 787 program. Those deferred costs also represents 33% of their total assets. It's also natable that they plan to recover $24,246 of those costs from next 565 units, which is about m$43 per unit. Rest of costs ($5,605) they plan to recover from units included in the program accounting quantity that represent expected future orders, which is 125 units after increasing accounting block. (m$45/unit)
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:43 am

And few word about Boeing's "strong" balance sheet:

Boeing's assets book value excluding 787 programs deferred production costs, unamortized tooling and other non-recurring costs are $60,185 and their total laiabilities are $92,014. This means their liabilities is 32 billion more than what they owns.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:43 am

".. next 565 units, which is about m$43 per unit. .... which is 125 units after increasing accounting block. (m$45/unit).."

43 increasing to 45.
not much of a learning curve anymore, isn't it? ( and is it for 12 or 14 per month production rate?
What was the reduction in this position in the last quarters ( per item delivered, that is ) ?
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:52 am

WIederling wrote:
".. next 565 units, which is about m$43 per unit. .... which is 125 units after increasing accounting block. (m$45/unit).."

43 increasing to 45.
not much of a learning curve anymore, isn't it? ( and is it for 12 or 14 per month production rate?
What was the reduction in this position in the last quarters ( per item delivered, that is ) ?

H1/2017 reduction was about m$16/unit.
 
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airmagnac
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:03 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
I'm wondering, could someone with a decent knowledge of programme accounting please give a comprehensive but succinct explanation of what accounting blocks are in relation to a programme such as the 787, so that when these questions come up we can point back to it and avoid the same ongoing back and forths over what it is or isn't?
V/F


Despite what accounting.net would try to make you believe, it is nothing more complex than the formula for an average, which is known to a 5th grader : N x average cost = SUM(individual unit cost) over all N units

The point is that over the 40- to 50-year lifetime of an aircraft program, recurrent production costs will vary a lot from one aircraft to another : there is a learning curve for early aircraft, there are differences due to customisation, there is a continuous flow of changes made to the aircraft design and/or to the infrastructure made to build it. Over such a long time and with such variance, it is difficult to recognize financial patterns and deduce investment decisions from said patterns - which is the whole point of accounting.
An extreme example given by Astuteman is for submarines, for which huge costs would be spent over a period of 10-15 years, against which revenues would be booked at a few discrete moments in time corresponding to down payments. So instead of showing the yearly figures, which would show huge losses in most years and huge profits in a few years, it makes more sense to smooth out the cash flow over the program lifetime by averaging the costs over the total number of units built.
In the end, what matters is the total cash expenditure, so if you build 10 units, it doesn't matter whether it is booked as ({cost of each unit} for all 10 units), or (10 x {average unit cost}). Both are equal, by definition of an average. Program accounting is just the second case : book N times the average production cost, with N the total number of aircraft built, so that production costs are almost constant and decision-making is a bit easier (and fooling inexperienced investors, TBH)

The only small issue is that in this case, neither the total number of units (N) nor the build costs are known. Therefore they must be estimated. The estimated 'N' is your accounting block.
Both estimates must be reasonable, and then of course the manufacturer will want N to be as high as possible and (average cost) to be as low as possible, so that it looks good. On the other hand, estimate the cost too low and the accounting will have to be re-adjusted by declaring a loss.

Following from this accounting method, some aircraft (mostly at the beginning) will cost more to produce than the declared average cost. The intent is that other aircraft will cost *less* than the average, and balance everything out by the time the accounting block is produced. But in the time between production of these expensive and cheap aircraft, there is an overcost that must be kept visible in the accounting - the deferred costs.

So to summarize :
- program accounting is a perfectly legitimate accounting method in principle
- it is just averaging the highly variable recurring costs over the program lifetime, to present a near-constant expenditure
- the sticky point is that it relies on assumptions about future costs & sales performances rather than actual measured cash flows
- it is NOT applicable to development costs which are 1-shot (non-recurring) costs and therefore do not vary over time (and therefore cannot be averaged)
- deferred costs are NOT sunk costs as they have been paid but not accounted for in the P&L, and therefore any future decision-making would have to take them into account
- 787 delivery cash flow is not directly convertible into free cash flow as a large chunk of it is earmarked to service the deferred costs - and thus is not free.

At this point, it is reasonable to expect that only a very very tiny part of the total revenue from each delivery can be considered as free, and that is supposing that each delivery is generating a gross margin (before deferred costs) already higher than other well established programs (usually around 20%). It is not totally unreasonable to suppose so, given the set-up of 787 production. And while we may debate the credibility on this site, the relevant authorities seem to accept that Boeing is capable of reducing the deferred costs to 0 by the end of its currently declared accounting blocks, which is what it is committed to do by law.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:38 am

armchairceonr1 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
".. next 565 units, which is about m$43 per unit. .... which is 125 units after increasing accounting block. (m$45/unit).."

43 increasing to 45.
not much of a learning curve anymore, isn't it? ( and is it for 12 or 14 per month production rate?
What was the reduction in this position in the last quarters ( per item delivered, that is ) ?

H1/2017 reduction was about m$16/unit.


That is a major clash in numbers.
no idea how one could ever think of fitting an exponential curve into that data set.
( without humongously large write offs in between, ...)
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:34 am

Planeflyer wrote:
I think the 380 issues and costs are reflected into the current share price. Re the 320 I think AB have proved that they know what they are doing. I think the Chinese assembly line was a mistake but not material re the share price.

What has held me back are concerns about the unknowns surrounding the future of the A400 and launcher business( SpaceX will disrupt this significantly).

I'd appreciate any input.


Airbus does not defer, no smoke and mirrors. So the higher production cost at the beginning of the A350 production go directly to cost and lower profits. Same with the A400M. Most of the problems with the A400M are solved. I hardly expect an overall profit on the A400M program, but the costs have occurred and are written off, sunk with other words. Profits will rise when the A350 program makes break even.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:45 am

armchairceonr1 wrote:
And few word about Boeing's "strong" balance sheet:

Boeing's assets book value excluding 787 programs deferred production costs, unamortized tooling and other non-recurring costs are $60,185 and their total laiabilities are $92,014. This means their liabilities is 32 billion more than what they owns.


Again this is true only if you ignore the value of its treasury stock and its inherent ability to raise capital if it wanted to. People don't invest in companies with weak balance sheets because they are on the verge of failing.
 
Egerton
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:50 am

There has been some comment on future production rates of modern wide bodies, so from memory may I list the upper limits as they appear to me:

10 per month: Airbus A330 all versions but allow for only 11 months per year not 12.
13 per month: Airbus A350 all versions but ditto
253 per year

14 per month: Boeing 787 all versions, but allow for 12 months per year
7 per month: Boeing 777 all versions, on this I am uncertain, and may be to low
252 per year

I look forward to being corrected
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:12 am

bigjku wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
And few word about Boeing's "strong" balance sheet:

Boeing's assets book value excluding 787 programs deferred production costs, unamortized tooling and other non-recurring costs are $60,185 and their total laiabilities are $92,014. This means their liabilities is 32 billion more than what they owns.


Again this is true only if you ignore the value of its treasury stock and its inherent ability to raise capital if it wanted to. People don't invest in companies with weak balance sheets because they are on the verge of failing.

Every Company can try to get money from market By raising capital, but its not the point. Value of treasury stock can be ignored, because if they try to sell those stocks its practically same than raising capital. There is very simple accounting rules considering treasury stocks and thats why they have no value on balance sheet. Otherwise companies could raise capital By owing all stocks themselves. Boeing has also been itself last years only big buyer on the market and owns now about 40% its common stocks.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:22 am

Egerton wrote:
There has been some comment on future production rates of modern wide bodies, so from memory may I list the upper limits as they appear to me:

10 per month: Airbus A330 all versions but allow for only 11 months per year not 12.
13 per month: Airbus A350 all versions but ditto
253 per year

14 per month: Boeing 787 all versions, but allow for 12 months per year
7 per month: Boeing 777 all versions, on this I am uncertain, and may be to low
252 per year

I look forward to being corrected

The highest 777 production rate up to now was 8.3 airplanes per month, which started in 2013. According to this article the upper limit for the 77X is even 10.4 per month:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ut-413967/

But please everybody, use this just as reference info, this is not the thread to go into a full-fledged discussions on production rates other then the 787 program.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:11 pm

bigjku wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
And few word about Boeing's "strong" balance sheet:

Boeing's assets book value excluding 787 programs deferred production costs, unamortized tooling and other non-recurring costs are $60,185 and their total laiabilities are $92,014. This means their liabilities is 32 billion more than what they owns.


Again this is true only if you ignore the value of its treasury stock and its inherent ability to raise capital if it wanted to. People don't invest in companies with weak balance sheets because they are on the verge of failing.


That is one of the problems here. If one talks about the weak points in the Boeing balance sheet, one is instantly accused of talking about Boeing failing.
But Boeing has not a strong balance sheet. The equity is very low and even negative. One third of the assets are the deferred cost and all the cash used by Boeing is other peoples money.
The equity in a company is its owners capital, owners cash or own cash can never exceed the equity. So no equity, no own cash. At Boeing all cash is therefor borrowed cash or capital on loan. But as long as Boeing is trusted by its financiers and investors, they will have enough cash.

Treasury stocks have no value, unless they are sold again. The opposite of share buy backs. There is no fundamentally difference between selling treasury stocks or doing a capital increase by selling new stocks.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:13 pm

armchairceonr1 wrote:
Otherwise companies could raise capital By owing all stocks themselves. Boeing has also been itself last years only big buyer on the market and owns now about 40% its common stocks.


MY understanding is that buying your own stock makes it "vanish".
i.e. for the same company "value" the number of outstanding shares shrinks
increasing value per share. ( and we've seen that. Buyback boosts traded share value overall.)
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:37 pm

WIederling wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
Otherwise companies could raise capital By owing all stocks themselves. Boeing has also been itself last years only big buyer on the market and owns now about 40% its common stocks.


MY understanding is that buying your own stock makes it "vanish".
i.e. for the same company "value" the number of outstanding shares shrinks
increasing value per share. ( and we've seen that. Buyback boosts traded share value overall.)

Most times buybacks boost share value on the stock market but its totally different thing what happen to companys balance sheet.

BTW, there was mistake on my calculations :
It's also natable that they plan to recover $24,246 of those costs from next 565 units, which is about m$43 per unit. Rest of costs ($5,605) they plan to recover from units included in the program accounting quantity that represent expected future orders, which is 125 units after increasing accounting block. (m$45/unit)

This should be 710 units, which is about m$34/unit.
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:59 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
That is one of the problems here. If one talks about the weak points in the Boeing balance sheet, one is instantly accused of talking about Boeing failing.
But Boeing has not a strong balance sheet. The equity is very low and even negative. One third of the assets are the deferred cost and all the cash used by Boeing is other peoples money.
The equity in a company is its owners capital, owners cash or own cash can never exceed the equity. So no equity, no own cash. At Boeing all cash is therefor borrowed cash or capital on loan. But as long as Boeing is trusted by its financiers and investors, they will have enough cash.

Treasury stocks have no value, unless they are sold again. The opposite of share buy backs. There is no fundamentally difference between selling treasury stocks or doing a capital increase by selling new stocks.

Well said, thanks!

BTW, Boeings biggest financiers are pensionist, airlines and suppliers. Boeing borrowed from them totally over 63 billion$.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:05 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
That is one of the problems here. If one talks about the weak points in the Boeing balance sheet, one is instantly accused of talking about Boeing failing.
But Boeing has not a strong balance sheet. The equity is very low and even negative. One third of the assets are the deferred cost and all the cash used by Boeing is other peoples money.
The equity in a company is its owners capital, owners cash or own cash can never exceed the equity. So no equity, no own cash. At Boeing all cash is therefor borrowed cash or capital on loan. But as long as Boeing is trusted by its financiers and investors, they will have enough cash.


You might think Boeing does not have a strong balance sheet, but running a small private business in Iceland is different than a publicly traded company. The finance experts are saying something different because they look at cash flow. Boeing has enough cash not because of loans, but because they are bringing in positive cash from selling airplanes and services.

Shares of Boeing have surged 76.9% over the last 12 months, outperforming the broader industry 's gain of 37%. This might have been driven by the company's strong balance sheet and cash flows that provide financial flexibility in matters of incremental dividend, ongoing share repurchases and earnings accretive acquisitions.

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/boeing-ba ... e-cm842229

For starters, the world’s largest plane-maker, which boasts a strong balance sheet and cash flows, is now operating in an improved airline/defense industry with better growth prospects. The company recently acknowledged the growing services market, which should complement domestic support for key defense and space programs. The recently released defense budget by the Trump Administration, which promises to modernize the armed forces, will create much-needed tailwinds for Boeing stock.

What’s more, the company last month announced 198 net orders for first quarter, which marked a whopping 63% rise year over year, topping last year’s mark of 121. At the same time, Boeing has also begun to grow its profit margins, which rose to 8.5% in the first quarter, compared to 7.2% in 2016.


https://investorplace.com/2017/06/boein ... cESEqKrC7M

I personally am not disagreeing with your comments regarding equity decline, but I am disagreeing with your conclusion regarding its impact to the balance sheet and borrowed cash. Wall Street investors disagree with your conclusion and I provided two articles supporting that. Your statements remind me of the under capitalization comments and confusion regarding definitions of cash, capital and equity in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1356311&start=50
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:21 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
bigjku wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
And few word about Boeing's "strong" balance sheet:

Boeing's assets book value excluding 787 programs deferred production costs, unamortized tooling and other non-recurring costs are $60,185 and their total laiabilities are $92,014. This means their liabilities is 32 billion more than what they owns.


Again this is true only if you ignore the value of its treasury stock and its inherent ability to raise capital if it wanted to. People don't invest in companies with weak balance sheets because they are on the verge of failing.


That is one of the problems here. If one talks about the weak points in the Boeing balance sheet, one is instantly accused of talking about Boeing failing.
But Boeing has not a strong balance sheet. The equity is very low and even negative. One third of the assets are the deferred cost and all the cash used by Boeing is other peoples money.
The equity in a company is its owners capital, owners cash or own cash can never exceed the equity. So no equity, no own cash. At Boeing all cash is therefor borrowed cash or capital on loan. But as long as Boeing is trusted by its financiers and investors, they will have enough cash.

Treasury stocks have no value, unless they are sold again. The opposite of share buy backs. There is no fundamentally difference between selling treasury stocks or doing a capital increase by selling new stocks.


Yes but the equity is low by choice because of the cash spent on buy backs. This is possible because of strong positive cash flows the company has. That is why I personally wouldn't see it as a weak balance sheet as a financing entity. Lots of company's maintain high leverage and weak balance sheets by choice. It's not independent from Boeings ability to raise capital which investors judge as being quite substantial if needed.

Net income probably is on pace for $6-7 billion or so. Simply ceasing buying back shares would see the company rapidly take a positive equity position if it decided it needed to.

Equity is primarily a hedge for risk in the end. If you are well managed and profitable the markets will let you run without a lot of equity. I would expect Boeing to start to add equity through retained earnings over the next year or two simply because buying back stock is no longer attractive given its current price.

I think we are mostly on the same page but I just object to the idea of weakness when it's a considered financial position. To me a weak balance sheet is something that results from poor P&L and Cash Flow and that a company can't control and wasn't seeking. When I hear weak balance sheet I worry about companies ability to remain a going concern.

In this sector Bombardier was a company that when I look at their financials absent the government bailout it should likely have gone under. It had real ongoing losses, was hemmoraging cash with a negative net worth. That is the kind of balance sheet that frightens me.
 
armchairceonr1
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:38 pm

bigjku wrote:
Yes but the equity is low by choice because of the cash spent on buy backs. This is possible because of strong positive cash flows the company has. That is why I personally wouldn't see it as a weak balance sheet as a financing entity. Lots of company's maintain high leverage and weak balance sheets by choice. It's not independent from Boeings ability to raise capital which investors judge as being quite substantial if needed.

Yes, they use every penny what they get to buy backs. Todays cash flow doesn't tell nothing about tomorrow.
Net income probably is on pace for $6-7 billion or so. Simply ceasing buying back shares would see the company rapidly take a positive equity position if it decided it needed to.

Equity is primarily a hedge for risk in the end. If you are well managed and profitable the markets will let you run without a lot of equity. I would expect Boeing to start to add equity through retained earnings over the next year or two simply because buying back stock is no longer attractive given its current price.

Well, this business is very volatile, like we have seen before. If something happens, there is maybe no time to cease buybacks and raise capital. This is the moment when you need equity, what Boeing doesn't have.
I think we are mostly on the same page but I just object to the idea of weakness when it's a considered financial position. To me a weak balance sheet is something that results from poor P&L and Cash Flow and that a company can't control and wasn't seeking. When I hear weak balance sheet I worry about companies ability to remain a going concern.

Strong balance does not have much to do with cash flow. Companies could have a weak balance sheet and strong cash flow at the same time or the opposite.
 
armchairceonr1
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:53 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
personally am not disagreeing with your comments regarding equity decline, but I am disagreeing with your conclusion regarding its impact to the balance sheet and borrowed cash. Wall Street investors disagree with your conclusion and I provided two articles supporting that. Your statements remind me of the under capitalization comments and confusion regarding definitions of cash, capital and equity in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1356311&start=50

I think there has been only one investor who is buying Boeings stocks in high volume during last year and it is Boeing. They own now 40% of common stocks and every stock they buy is out of market. They have longtime owners who not trade stocks and this over demand get stock price sky rocketing.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:56 pm

bigjku wrote:
In this sector Bombardier was a company that when I look at their financials absent the government bailout it should likely have gone under. It had real ongoing losses, was hemmoraging cash with a negative net worth. That is the kind of balance sheet that frightens me.


Only difference is real money as bailout versus a rather strange asset named "deferred cost" .

The "sitting pretty" Boeing presents is staged via doing the things you'd expect a "swimming in money" company would do.
the reverse assumption from buy backs and other "looks good" activity to a healthy company is less substantial than assumed.

But that does not bother the share ecology as long as the majority of participants start to move from the same triggers.
Just another rule based game of cards.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9894
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:53 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
That is one of the problems here. If one talks about the weak points in the Boeing balance sheet, one is instantly accused of talking about Boeing failing.
But Boeing has not a strong balance sheet. The equity is very low and even negative. One third of the assets are the deferred cost and all the cash used by Boeing is other peoples money.
The equity in a company is its owners capital, owners cash or own cash can never exceed the equity. So no equity, no own cash. At Boeing all cash is therefor borrowed cash or capital on loan. But as long as Boeing is trusted by its financiers and investors, they will have enough cash.


You might think Boeing does not have a strong balance sheet, but running a small private business in Iceland is different than a publicly traded company. The finance experts are saying something different because they look at cash flow. Boeing has enough cash not because of loans, but because they are bringing in positive cash from selling airplanes and services.

Shares of Boeing have surged 76.9% over the last 12 months, outperforming the broader industry 's gain of 37%. This might have been driven by the company's strong balance sheet and cash flows that provide financial flexibility in matters of incremental dividend, ongoing share repurchases and earnings accretive acquisitions.

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/boeing-ba ... e-cm842229

For starters, the world’s largest plane-maker, which boasts a strong balance sheet and cash flows, is now operating in an improved airline/defense industry with better growth prospects. The company recently acknowledged the growing services market, which should complement domestic support for key defense and space programs. The recently released defense budget by the Trump Administration, which promises to modernize the armed forces, will create much-needed tailwinds for Boeing stock.

What’s more, the company last month announced 198 net orders for first quarter, which marked a whopping 63% rise year over year, topping last year’s mark of 121. At the same time, Boeing has also begun to grow its profit margins, which rose to 8.5% in the first quarter, compared to 7.2% in 2016.


https://investorplace.com/2017/06/boein ... cESEqKrC7M

I personally am not disagreeing with your comments regarding equity decline, but I am disagreeing with your conclusion regarding its impact to the balance sheet and borrowed cash. Wall Street investors disagree with your conclusion and I provided two articles supporting that. Your statements remind me of the under capitalization comments and confusion regarding definitions of cash, capital and equity in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1356311&start=50


You should perhaps trade more in arguments than in trying to put others down. Are you responsible for the financial reporting for any kind of company?
A bad dept to equity ratio is never the sign of a strong company and USA companies are no exception to that. It is just that when you have a bad dept to equity ratio, you rather talk about cash flow. And when your high profits are based on deferring cost, you again rather talk about cash flow.

There are quite a few big USA companies that are proud of a solid dept to equity ratio. Have a look at Caterpillar for example, with nearly 18 % equity, resulting from 78.5 billion USD dept and equity, against 14.1 billion equity. I could name quite a few USA companies with a solid D/E ratio, but here is not the space for it.

And the borrowed cash is a fact. When you do not have equity, all your cash is borrowed, simple. No way around that even in a big USA company.
 
armchairceonr1
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:57 pm

If there ever come a day, when Boeing directors have to take hat off and go to bank to get loan. First thing what bankster do is he check Boeings balance sheet. After that he can give quickly answer: so you used all your money to pump up your market value and now you ask more money from me. NO WAY! :D
 
jbs2886
Posts: 5746
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:07 pm

armchairceonr1 wrote:
If there ever come a day, when Boeing directors have to take hat off and go to bank to get loan. First thing what bankster do is he check Boeings balance sheet. After that he can give quickly answer: so you used all your money to pump up your market value and now you ask more money from me. NO WAY! :D


Actually, no. You do realize Boeing (like other corporations) is constantly raising cash via bond issuances, including recent updates this year? Banks and other investors are not saying no way. Further, if banks and investors were so concerned, Boeing's stock price wouldn't be at record highs.

http://quicktake.morningstar.com/StockN ... gistration
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 28097
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:13 pm

armchairceonr1 wrote:
If there ever come a day, when Boeing directors have to take hat off and go to bank to get loan. First thing what bankster do is he check Boeings balance sheet. After that he can give quickly answer: so you used all your money to pump up your market value and now you ask more money from me. NO WAY! :D


Just looking at their financial reports, Boeing has had no problems securing commercial loans at competitive rates.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:24 pm

armchairceonr1 wrote:
If there ever come a day, when Boeing directors have to take hat off and go to bank to get loan. First thing what bankster do is he check Boeings balance sheet. After that he can give quickly answer: so you used all your money to pump up your market value and now you ask more money from me. NO WAY! :D


Morningstar gives Boeing a Grade A bond rating

http://quicktake.morningstar.com/stockn ... ?symbol=ba

That's the same as United Technologies and one grade above the other US based aviation manufacturers Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin who both have A-

Do you know what you are talking about? Publicly traded companies don't go to banks to apply for loans. They issue debt through the bond market. If you look at the morningstar report, you will see Mjoelnir's point about decreasing equity. Equity is an outlier compared to the industry, but debt to assets and cashflow to total debt are better than industry averages.

Firm Ind Avg / Rel to Industry

Debt/Assets
0.12 / 0.25

Debt/Equity
113.67 / 1.05

Current Assets/Current Liability
1.19 / 1.40

EBITDA/Interest
32.53

Debt/EBITDA
0.97 / 2.07

Cashflow Ops/Total Debt
1.21 / 0.38
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1651
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:52 pm

There is huge downside in being a Fan Boy; you make terrible investment decisions. Positive cash flow is very hard if not almost impossible to fake for a company that is scrutinized as closely as Boeing is.

One can argue what they should have done with the cash given but the appreciation in the share price I for one would not second guess the buybacks.

Going forward, I think AB shares will appreciate 20-30% over the next two years as between the 350 and the LR versions of the 321 they have two proprietary programs that will have a very positive impact on earnings.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:01 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Are you responsible for the financial reporting for any kind of company?


No I am not. I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. That's why I'm quoting and referencing others who are experts to contradict your statement that "Boeing has not a strong balance sheet" and armchairceonr1 comments about Boeing not being able to issue more debt.
 
armchairceonr1
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:09 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
If there ever come a day, when Boeing directors have to take hat off and go to bank to get loan. First thing what bankster do is he check Boeings balance sheet. After that he can give quickly answer: so you used all your money to pump up your market value and now you ask more money from me. NO WAY! :D


Morningstar gives Boeing a Grade A bond rating

http://quicktake.morningstar.com/stockn ... ?symbol=ba

That's the same as United Technologies and one grade above the other US based aviation manufacturers Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin who both have A-

Do you know what you are talking about? Publicly traded companies don't go to banks to apply for loans. They issue debt through the bond market. If you look at the morningstar report, you will see Mjoelnir's point about decreasing equity. Equity is an outlier compared to the industry, but debt to assets and cashflow to total debt are better than industry averages.

Firm Ind Avg / Rel to Industry

Debt/Assets
0.12 / 0.25

Debt/Equity
113.67 / 1.05

Current Assets/Current Liability
1.19 / 1.40

EBITDA/Interest
32.53

Debt/EBITDA
0.97 / 2.07

Cashflow Ops/Total Debt
1.21 / 0.38

Do you understand what is behind those numbers? I can explain you, if you don't. I used to work over ten years as portfolio manager and I really think I know litlle bit more than you how market works. Obviously fanboys didn't notice smiley in my comment. :)
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:22 pm

armchairceonr1 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
If there ever come a day, when Boeing directors have to take hat off and go to bank to get loan. First thing what bankster do is he check Boeings balance sheet. After that he can give quickly answer: so you used all your money to pump up your market value and now you ask more money from me. NO WAY! :D


Morningstar gives Boeing a Grade A bond rating

http://quicktake.morningstar.com/stockn ... ?symbol=ba

That's the same as United Technologies and one grade above the other US based aviation manufacturers Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin who both have A-

Do you know what you are talking about? Publicly traded companies don't go to banks to apply for loans. They issue debt through the bond market. If you look at the morningstar report, you will see Mjoelnir's point about decreasing equity. Equity is an outlier compared to the industry, but debt to assets and cashflow to total debt are better than industry averages.

Firm Ind Avg / Rel to Industry

Debt/Assets
0.12 / 0.25

Debt/Equity
113.67 / 1.05

Current Assets/Current Liability
1.19 / 1.40

EBITDA/Interest
32.53

Debt/EBITDA
0.97 / 2.07

Cashflow Ops/Total Debt
1.21 / 0.38

Do you understand what is behind those numbers? I can explain you, if you don't. I used to work over ten years as portfolio manager and I really think I know litlle bit more than you how market works. Obviously fanboys didn't notice smiley in my comment. :)


I would appreciate it if you could explain to us the meaning of your comment. Since you are an expert in the bond market, what does your comment mean or is everything you said a joke?
 
airzona11
Posts: 1935
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:26 pm

armchairceonr1 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
If there ever come a day, when Boeing directors have to take hat off and go to bank to get loan. First thing what bankster do is he check Boeings balance sheet. After that he can give quickly answer: so you used all your money to pump up your market value and now you ask more money from me. NO WAY! :D


Morningstar gives Boeing a Grade A bond rating

http://quicktake.morningstar.com/stockn ... ?symbol=ba

That's the same as United Technologies and one grade above the other US based aviation manufacturers Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin who both have A-

Do you know what you are talking about? Publicly traded companies don't go to banks to apply for loans. They issue debt through the bond market. If you look at the morningstar report, you will see Mjoelnir's point about decreasing equity. Equity is an outlier compared to the industry, but debt to assets and cashflow to total debt are better than industry averages.

Firm Ind Avg / Rel to Industry

Debt/Assets
0.12 / 0.25

Debt/Equity
113.67 / 1.05

Current Assets/Current Liability
1.19 / 1.40

EBITDA/Interest
32.53

Debt/EBITDA
0.97 / 2.07

Cashflow Ops/Total Debt
1.21 / 0.38

Do you understand what is behind those numbers? I can explain you, if you don't. I used to work over ten years as portfolio manager and I really think I know litlle bit more than you how market works. Obviously fanboys didn't notice smiley in my comment. :)


Well hopefully you had your people in Boeing stock because they would have made a fortune.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9894
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:50 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Are you responsible for the financial reporting for any kind of company?


No I am not. I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. That's why I'm quoting and referencing others who are experts to contradict your statement that "Boeing has not a strong balance sheet" and armchairceonr1 comments about Boeing not being able to issue more debt.


So you should not belittle the experience of others, having done and having to stand for the financial reporting for a company.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:33 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Are you responsible for the financial reporting for any kind of company?


No I am not. I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. That's why I'm quoting and referencing others who are experts to contradict your statement that "Boeing has not a strong balance sheet" and armchairceonr1 comments about Boeing not being able to issue more debt.


So you should not belittle the experience of others, having done and having to stand for the financial reporting for a company.


I'm not the one saying that Boeing has a weak balance sheet, you are. I'm sorry if you are offended, but your statement is contradictory to almost all of the financial analysis articles that I have read. I have to go back in time to 2009-2011 to find articles stating that Boeing had a weak balance sheet. If you have seen an industry expert corroborate your opinion, I'd love to see it. What I am reading is that Boeing has a strong balance sheet despite drop in equity.

More recently the Dollar has been falling in value, which is helping their balance sheet even more:

A weak dollar should provide a tailwind to Boeing's (BA - Get Report) commercial aircraft division. That division competes chiefly with Europe's Airbus, a company which will be hurt by the stronger euro.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1431109 ... ollar.html

787 rate going up, 787 production costs and deferred costs going down, and Dollar going down should all help Boeing's balance sheet. A bigger accounting block can help boost profits, and with the falling dollar and recent sales, it looks like the 787 should continue to sell.
 
StTim
Posts: 4177
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:44 pm

By every definition I was taught at Business school Boeing has a weak balance sheet. Indeed historically you could say they were insolvent,

Now I do not believe Boeing is anywhere near to going broke. Times have obviously changed.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 29621
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing to accelerate 787 production, increases accounting block

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:48 pm

StTim wrote:
By every definition I was taught at Business school Boeing has a weak balance sheet. Indeed historically you could say they were insolvent,

Now I do not believe Boeing is anywhere near to going broke. Times have obviously changed.


Guess what: Pluto is not a planet! And historically, currency was backed up by gold bars in vaults. Indeed, times have changed.

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