sk736
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How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:55 pm

Since Loganair started operating in its own right again at the beginning of September, they've been going head-to-head on a number of routes. I've noticed particularly that there are now many flights a day on the Aberdeen to Sumburgh route, meaning fares are relatively low even at a day's notice. Flybe are now even using jets on the route (in the form of Eastern's E170). Does anyone know how these carriers are getting on in direct competition with each other?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:58 pm

Loganair now has a feeder deal with EasyJet which is supposed to get them some extra passengers. Not sure how this is going to work out since it's only just been announced, but it sounds promising.
 
sk736
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:45 pm

A deal with easyJet sounds promising, I hope it works for Loganair.
 
edina
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:52 am

And Loganair also have the BA codeshare....
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vfw614
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:01 am

I understand that Eastern has had a fair deal of problems with their E70 flights as the aircraft is more weather-challenged than the props. And apparently they found out that the J41 cannot transport patients in wheelchairs who travel from the islands and highlands for hospital treatment (if I am to believe the media).
 
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JannEejit
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:37 am

I gather Flybe/Eastern had to turn a wheelchair passenger away as they couldn't accommodate them on the Jetstream. Loads on their Aberdeen-Sumburgh have been in single figures and both operators are struggling with Glasgow-Manchester owing to over provision. As stated Loganair have agreed a codeshare with BA and will be part of EasyJet's new initiative. Personally I can see Eastern suffering the most out of this...
 
skipness1E
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:57 am

Codeshares with loco airlines are peripheral to p/l for Loganair. It's all about bread and butter year round point to point, and they are going to take a hit from flybe if they persevere IMHO. No winners here.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:30 am

Fingers crossed for Loganair. I am hoping the BA and EZY deals help bringing additional pax into the equation.
 
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TheLion
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:51 pm

I echo others' sentiments too. I really hope they do well as an independent airline. Post-Brexit they could even find themselves as a major player and flag carrier if Scotland were to secede.
 
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nighthawk
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:35 pm

TheLion wrote:
I echo others' sentiments too. I really hope they do well as an independent airline. Post-Brexit they could even find themselves as a major player and flag carrier if Scotland were to secede.


If Scotland does secede, there will be almost no impact on the aviation market. There wont be a sudden boom in air travel requiring an international flag carrier to be established. Demand will remain as is, and will continue to be served by the current players.

But back to the question at hand - I believe at least initially in the first week, the Eastern flights were almost empty. Loganair is an established name in the islands, and the local population are loyal to the Loganair brand, not FlyBE / Eastern. It's going to be tough for FlyBE to break into the market.
 
Liverpoola380
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:12 pm

I fly the MAN - GLA three times a month. I have flew Eastern and Logan. Flew back Tuesday night on Eastern with 19PAX on the Saab 2000

Logan was a lighter load.

I would love it if they allowed you to book MAN - GLA on BA as my other regular route is MAN - LHR at the minute it can only be booked as a connection.
 
vfw614
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:30 pm

I think MAN-GLA is more Flybe's home turf from which Eastern will benefit. Most of the other routes where Eastern and Logan compete are "intra-Scottish" routes where Loganair should have a head start.
 
sk736
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:43 pm

Liverpoola380 wrote:
I fly the MAN - GLA three times a month. I have flew Eastern and Logan. Flew back Tuesday night on Eastern with 19PAX on the Saab 2000

Logan was a lighter load.

I would love it if they allowed you to book MAN - GLA on BA as my other regular route is MAN - LHR at the minute it can only be booked as a connection.

Initially, they were going to use J41s which would have been more appropriate for the light loads - not sure why they are using the Saab 2000s. Interestingly, I was in Aberdeen this week and noticed a lot of Flybe posters saying they'd been committed to Scotland for 20 years - but I agree that for the Scots, Loganair has the emotional pull over Flybe.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:27 pm

sk736 wrote:
Liverpoola380 wrote:
I fly the MAN - GLA three times a month. I have flew Eastern and Logan. Flew back Tuesday night on Eastern with 19PAX on the Saab 2000

Logan was a lighter load.

I would love it if they allowed you to book MAN - GLA on BA as my other regular route is MAN - LHR at the minute it can only be booked as a connection.

Initially, they were going to use J41s which would have been more appropriate for the light loads - not sure why they are using the Saab 2000s. Interestingly, I was in Aberdeen this week and noticed a lot of Flybe Lposters saying they'd been committed to Scotland for 20 years - but I agree that for the Scots, Loganair has the emotional pull over Flybe.


I don't recall too many Jersey European services operating within Scotland 20 years ago and neither will a fiercely loyal customer base in the Highlands & Islands who will recall that Loganair also operated vital PSO and air ambulance services throughout their existence, not to mention the vast core of employees right across their business area that call Loganair their livelihood...
 
sk736
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:19 am

JannEejit wrote:
sk736 wrote:
Liverpoola380 wrote:
I fly the MAN - GLA three times a month. I have flew Eastern and Logan. Flew back Tuesday night on Eastern with 19PAX on the Saab 2000

Logan was a lighter load.

I would love it if they allowed you to book MAN - GLA on BA as my other regular route is MAN - LHR at the minute it can only be booked as a connection.

Initially, they were going to use J41s which would have been more appropriate for the light loads - not sure why they are using the Saab 2000s. Interestingly, I was in Aberdeen this week and noticed a lot of Flybe Lposters saying they'd been committed to Scotland for 20 years - but I agree that for the Scots, Loganair has the emotional pull over Flybe.


I don't recall too many Jersey European services operating within Scotland 20 years ago and neither will a fiercely loyal customer base in the Highlands & Islands who will recall that Loganair also operated vital PSO and air ambulance services throughout their existence, not to mention the vast core of employees right across their business area that call Loganair their livelihood...

Indeed. I have no love for Flybe and hope that Loganair wins this particular battle.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:30 pm

Make no mistake, this is simply an attempt by a loss making Flybe to muscle in on a successful competitor in their own niche environment, cherry picking the so called money making routes, ignoring the life line routes, whilst pretending to be serving a community that really does depend on vital air links and not just for going on holidays or city weekend breaks. Not many are falling for the "FlyBS" so far.
 
Breathe
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:23 pm

sk736 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
sk736 wrote:
Initially, they were going to use J41s which would have been more appropriate for the light loads - not sure why they are using the Saab 2000s. Interestingly, I was in Aberdeen this week and noticed a lot of Flybe Lposters saying they'd been committed to Scotland for 20 years - but I agree that for the Scots, Loganair has the emotional pull over Flybe.


I don't recall too many Jersey European services operating within Scotland 20 years ago and neither will a fiercely loyal customer base in the Highlands & Islands who will recall that Loganair also operated vital PSO and air ambulance services throughout their existence, not to mention the vast core of employees right across their business area that call Loganair their livelihood...

Indeed. I have no love for Flybe and hope that Loganair wins this particular battle.

Emotional sentiment only goes so far. If Flybe can provide the same product for cheaper, ultimately they'll win out. "market forces" and all that.

No doubting that what Flybe did to Loganair was a bit shady, but that (sadly) is business, isn't it?
 
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JannEejit
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:40 pm

Breathe wrote:
sk736 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:

I don't recall too many Jersey European services operating within Scotland 20 years ago and neither will a fiercely loyal customer base in the Highlands & Islands who will recall that Loganair also operated vital PSO and air ambulance services throughout their existence, not to mention the vast core of employees right across their business area that call Loganair their livelihood...

Indeed. I have no love for Flybe and hope that Loganair wins this particular battle.

Emotional sentiment only goes so far. If Flybe can provide the same product for cheaper, ultimately they'll win out. "market forces" and all that.

No doubting that what Flybe did to Loganair was a bit shady, but that (sadly) is business, isn't it?


You may be misunderstanding how Hebrideans, Shetlanders and Orcadians think about how business works though ? They are fiercely loyal to what works for them, the recent franchise competition amongst the ferry operators was a good example of that, they whole heartedly supported Caledonian MacBrayne because they knew they were in it for the long haul. Same applies here, Flybe will never run a complete Scottish network like Loganair does, never in a month of Sundays. And if Loganair does go under because of this, essential air travel links in Scotland will suffer accordingly. It may indeed just be business, but to many it looks like Flybe and Eastern cooked up a dirty deal to replace Loganair with Eastern on Scottish internal routes. Some people may recall the bad taste tactics being applied to Southwest just a few years ago too, and many have long memories.
 
Arion640
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:26 pm

nighthawk wrote:
TheLion wrote:
I echo others' sentiments too. I really hope they do well as an independent airline. Post-Brexit they could even find themselves as a major player and flag carrier if Scotland were to secede.


If Scotland does secede, there will be almost no impact on the aviation market. There wont be a sudden boom in air travel requiring an international flag carrier to be established. Demand will remain as is, and will continue to be served by the current players.

But back to the question at hand - I believe at least initially in the first week, the Eastern flights were almost empty. Loganair is an established name in the islands, and the local population are loyal to the Loganair brand, not FlyBE / Eastern. It's going to be tough for FlyBE to break into the market.


Which probably won't happen anytime soon. The Case for Indyref2 is getting smaller and smaller. The SNP will get another hit at the next election. If it does happen its 20 years away. I don't really understand why there would be a boom in air travel if scotland seceded?

Whats with the flybe hate? Ryan Air have been using this sort of predatory tactic for years.
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sk736
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:53 pm

Arion640 wrote:
nighthawk wrote:
TheLion wrote:
I echo others' sentiments too. I really hope they do well as an independent airline. Post-Brexit they could even find themselves as a major player and flag carrier if Scotland were to secede.


If Scotland does secede, there will be almost no impact on the aviation market. There wont be a sudden boom in air travel requiring an international flag carrier to be established. Demand will remain as is, and will continue to be served by the current players.

But back to the question at hand - I believe at least initially in the first week, the Eastern flights were almost empty. Loganair is an established name in the islands, and the local population are loyal to the Loganair brand, not FlyBE / Eastern. It's going to be tough for FlyBE to break into the market.


Which probably won't happen anytime soon. The Case for Indyref2 is getting smaller and smaller. The SNP will get another hit at the next election. If it does happen its 20 years away. I don't really understand why there would be a boom in air travel if scotland seceded?

Whats with the flybe hate? Ryan Air have been using this sort of predatory tactic for years.

I don't hate Flybe, I just think that in my experience they're not customer focussed and they're not reliable.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:08 pm

Arion640 wrote:
nighthawk wrote:
TheLion wrote:
I echo others' sentiments too. I really hope they do well as an independent airline. Post-Brexit they could even find themselves as a major player and flag carrier if Scotland were to secede.


If Scotland does secede, there will be almost no impact on the aviation market. There wont be a sudden boom in air travel requiring an international flag carrier to be established. Demand will remain as is, and will continue to be served by the current players.

But back to the question at hand - I believe at least initially in the first week, the Eastern flights were almost empty. Loganair is an established name in the islands, and the local population are loyal to the Loganair brand, not FlyBE / Eastern. It's going to be tough for FlyBE to break into the market.


Which probably won't happen anytime soon. The Case for Indyref2 is getting smaller and smaller. The SNP will get another hit at the next election. If it does happen its 20 years away. I don't really understand why there would be a boom in air travel if scotland seceded?

Whats with the flybe hate? Ryan Air have been using this sort of predatory tactic for years.


The case for Indyref2 is probably best left until life 'post-Brexit' can properly be assessed. But that's another discussion...
 
Breathe
Posts: 180
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:46 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Breathe wrote:
sk736 wrote:
Indeed. I have no love for Flybe and hope that Loganair wins this particular battle.

Emotional sentiment only goes so far. If Flybe can provide the same product for cheaper, ultimately they'll win out. "market forces" and all that.

No doubting that what Flybe did to Loganair was a bit shady, but that (sadly) is business, isn't it?


You may be misunderstanding how Hebrideans, Shetlanders and Orcadians think about how business works though ?

misunderstanding - no. unaware - yes. ;)

JannEejit wrote:
Breathe wrote:
sk736 wrote:
Same applies here, Flybe will never run a complete Scottish network like Loganair does, never in a month of Sundays. And if Loganair does go under because of this, essential air travel links in Scotland will suffer accordingly. It may indeed just be business, but to many it looks like Flybe and Eastern cooked up a dirty deal to replace Loganair with Eastern on Scottish internal routes. Some people may recall the bad taste tactics being applied to Southwest just a few years ago too, and many have long memories.


I think the worst case scenario for Loganair would be that they retreat back to the essential air travel links (am I right in saying they are subsidised by the Scot. Gov.?).

Its certainly going to be interesting to see what happens between these two operators over the next few months.
 
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TheLion
Posts: 477
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Re: How's it Going with Loganair vesus Flybe?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:36 pm

Arion640 wrote:
nighthawk wrote:
TheLion wrote:
I echo others' sentiments too. I really hope they do well as an independent airline. Post-Brexit they could even find themselves as a major player and flag carrier if Scotland were to secede.


If Scotland does secede, there will be almost no impact on the aviation market. There wont be a sudden boom in air travel requiring an international flag carrier to be established. Demand will remain as is, and will continue to be served by the current players.


Which probably won't happen anytime soon. The Case for Indyref2 is getting smaller and smaller. The SNP will get another hit at the next election. If it does happen its 20 years away. I don't really understand why there would be a boom in air travel if scotland seceded?


Actually, I wouldn't be so sure.

A new country means a new independent government, companies' operations extending and other organisations being wooed to set up shop, all of which generates premium air traffic. Plus the new nation suddenly becomes more of a tourist destination than before, given its new status.

However as stated independence may thankfully no longer be a likelihood, although it's hard to say what impact Brexit could still yet have.

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