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KarelXWB
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CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:17 pm

CX is putting the brakes on international growth.

On 13th September 2017, CPAS and Airbus S.A.S. entered into the Purchase Agreement, pursuant to which CPAS has agreed to purchase the Airbus Aircraft (being 32 Airbus A321-200neo aircraft) from Airbus S.A.S.

Swire Pacific and Air China, which together own approximately 74.99% of the issued share capital of the Company, have approved the Transaction. Swire Pacific and Air China do not have any interest in the Transaction other than as shareholders of the Company.

The Transaction constitutes a major transaction of the Company under the Listing Rules. A circular containing the information required under the Listing Rules will be despatched to shareholders on or before 6th October 2017.

This announcement also deals with a transaction which is related to the Transaction but which is not a notifiable transaction of the Company under Chapter 14 of the Listing Rules. An existing order for six Airbus A350-1000 aircraft is to be converted into an order for six smaller Airbus A350-900 aircraft (to be delivered in 2019 and 2020) and the delivery of five Airbus A350-1000 aircraft is to be deferred from 2020 to 2021.


Source
http://www.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listcon ... 913604.pdf
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
scotron11
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:28 pm

Wonder what this means for their 777X orders?
 
Eyad89
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:40 pm

So six A35K are to be converted into six A359, that's a revenue loss for Airbus.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:53 pm

scotron11 wrote:
Wonder what this means for their 777X orders?

Nothing, else the article would have mentioned it.
Eyad89 wrote:
So six A35K are to be converted into six A359, that's a revenue loss for Airbus.

Perhaps. But always better than a cancellation.
It's typical for the current market though, there is overcapacity. Widebody aircraft around the 300 seat capacity are in popular demand (A359/B789), larger ones not so much. Orders for A35K, 777X and 787-10 are scarce.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W, AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:57 pm

frigatebird wrote:
scotron11 wrote:
Wonder what this means for their 777X orders?

Nothing, else the article would have mentioned it.


The 777X hasn't entered production yet so there are no upcoming production slots to rejig, though growth will have to pick up in the coming years otherwise deferrals are inevitable.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
mffoda
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:08 pm

What was the original delivery target for these swapped and deferred A35k's?
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
Momo1435
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:19 pm

This probably means that we will see even more A330s to Cathay Dragon, which are being replaced with the A350s.

The fate of the 777X order probably depends on how quick they want to start to retire their oldest 77Ws.
 
airbazar
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:45 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
So six A35K are to be converted into six A359, that's a revenue loss for Airbus.

Perhaps. But always better than a cancellation.
It's typical for the current market though, there is overcapacity. Widebody aircraft around the 300 seat capacity are in popular demand (A359/B789), larger ones not so much. Orders for A35K, 777X and 787-10 are scarce.

It's worth remembering that 16 of the A350-1000 were conversions from the A359. So this is in a way a return to the original order :)
https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_VN/ ... craft.html
 
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frigatebird
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:59 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
scotron11 wrote:
Wonder what this means for their 777X orders?

Nothing, else the article would have mentioned it.


The 777X hasn't entered production yet so there are no upcoming production slots to rejig, though growth will have to pick up in the coming years otherwise deferrals are inevitable.

I would think Boeing has already allocated production slots to CX, but I agree deferrals could happen. IIRC Boeing needs to know at least 18 months in advance, within 18 months of production any deferral will lead to extra cost. So CX can afford to wait a little bit regarding a decision about 777X deliveries.
airbazar wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
So six A35K are to be converted into six A359, that's a revenue loss for Airbus.

Perhaps. But always better than a cancellation.
It's typical for the current market though, there is overcapacity. Widebody aircraft around the 300 seat capacity are in popular demand (A359/B789), larger ones not so much. Orders for A35K, 777X and 787-10 are scarce.

It's worth remembering that 16 of the A350-1000 were conversions from the A359. So this is in a way a return to the original order :)
https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_VN/ ... craft.html

Correct, not unlike UA ;)
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W, AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:12 pm

Interesting to see another airline converting A350-1000 orders to A350-900 orders. Is this coincidence that it's happening about the same time as UA switching its orders? Could Airbus be more willing to let airlines convert to the smaller A350?
 
raylee67
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:38 pm

Makes sense for the A350 conversion. Almost all the A350-900 ordered by CX have been delivered already. As we saw in the announcements on new routes, the new routes will focus on destinations that require the capacity of A350-900, not the -1000. The A350-1000 will have the same capacity as the 77W, and CX is in no hurry to replace the 77W. So actually more -900 order may mean CX is looking at more secondary destination opportunities.
319 320 321 332 333 342 343 345 388 707 717 732 736 73G 738 739 74R 742 743 744 74E 748 757 762 763 772 77E 77L 773 77W D10 M80 135 140 145 175 190 DH1 DH4 CRJ CR7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
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mercure1
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:18 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
CX is putting the brakes on international growth.


:confused: :confused:

Entire CX Group operations is international, and they are growing both in frames and seat capacity.
 
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kitplane01
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A350 Stumbles as Cathay Latest Switch

Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:18 pm

Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. switched a contract for six A350-1000s to the smaller -900 variant and deferred delivery of five more by a year.

The model switch, announced by Asia’s biggest carrier on Wednesday, follows a decision last week at United Airlines to swap on order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 -900s,...

The Cathay decision narrows the order book for the 366-seat A350-1000 to 171 aircraft, based on the planemaker’s latest data, while lifting the backlog for the 325-berth -900 to 679 planes. The larger jetliner is falling out of favor as carriers around the world rein in capacity expansion to ease pressure on fares, while United Chief Financial Officer Andrew Levy said the -1000 is also too close in size to the largest Boeing Co. 777 model.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-13/biggest-airbus-a350-stumbles-as-cathay-latest-to-prefer-sibling

 
kaitak
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:52 pm

raylee67 wrote:
So actually more -900 order may mean CX is looking at more secondary destination opportunities.


This is what I was thinking; the 359 has longer legs than the 359; there's no reduction in the numbers being ordered, just a greater emphasis on the longer range model.

As to the A350-1000, does that mean we won't see these in CX colours until 2021, then? The oldest of the (non ER) 773s will be 24 yrs old by then and pretty high in cycles. Presumably the first type that the 35K will replace.

While on the subject of CX 777s, have they given indication of when the -200s might be retired? Whatever about the other 4, I hope LN 1 is not scrapped!
 
MD80MKE
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:58 pm

kaitak wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
So actually more -900 order may mean CX is looking at more secondary destination opportunities.


This is what I was thinking; the 359 has longer legs than the 359; there's no reduction in the numbers being ordered, just a greater emphasis on the longer range model.

As to the A350-1000, does that mean we won't see these in CX colours until 2021, then? The oldest of the (non ER) 773s will be 24 yrs old by then and pretty high in cycles. Presumably the first type that the 35K will replace.

While on the subject of CX 777s, have they given indication of when the -200s might be retired? Whatever about the other 4, I hope LN 1 is not scrapped!

No the first A350-1000 for Cathay is already in final assembly phase and is scheduled to be delivered in April next year. You'd expect some 77W's on North America and European routes to be replaced by A35K.
 
Sooner787
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:14 pm

kaitak wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
So actually more -900 order may mean CX is looking at more secondary destination opportunities.


This is what I was thinking; the 359 has longer legs than the 359; there's no reduction in the numbers being ordered, just a greater emphasis on the longer range model.

As to the A350-1000, does that mean we won't see these in CX colours until 2021, then? The oldest of the (non ER) 773s will be 24 yrs old by then and pretty high in cycles. Presumably the first type that the 35K will replace.

While on the subject of CX 777s, have they given indication of when the -200s might be retired? Whatever about the other 4, I hope LN 1 is not scrapped!


I agree, 777 LN1 would make a nice addition to the Museum of Flights in SEA :)
 
dc10lover
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:04 pm

Hopefully they chose the GE Leap engine.
Ever Wish You Can Go Back In Time And Live In An Earlier Era Of Aviation?
 
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maortega15
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:41 pm

dc10lover wrote:
Hopefully they chose the GE Leap engine.

I got confused there for a minute, but to avoid confusion, the LEAP is under CFM.
 
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RL777
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:14 pm

My two cents,

- A359 has hit the capacity sweet spot for CX route network
- Low oil/fuel prices favor the 77W for short term, A35K won't play as prominent a role as early as expected
- Focus on launching new routes, A35K too large for them, regional strategy shifting to KA and 773s.
 
astuteman
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Re: A350 Stumbles as Cathay Latest Switch

Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:33 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. switched a contract for six A350-1000s to the smaller -900 variant and deferred delivery of five more by a year.

The model switch, announced by Asia’s biggest carrier on Wednesday, follows a decision last week at United Airlines to swap on order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 -900s,...

The Cathay decision narrows the order book for the 366-seat A350-1000 to 171 aircraft, based on the planemaker’s latest data, while lifting the backlog for the 325-berth -900 to 679 planes. The larger jetliner is falling out of favor as carriers around the world rein in capacity expansion to ease pressure on fares, while United Chief Financial Officer Andrew Levy said the -1000 is also too close in size to the largest Boeing Co. 777 model.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-13/biggest-airbus-a350-stumbles-as-cathay-latest-to-prefer-sibling



The Cathay decision narrows the order book for the 366-seat A350-1000 to 171 aircraft, based on the planemaker’s latest data, while lifting the backlog for the 325-berth -900 to 679 planes. The larger jetliner is falling out of favor as carriers around the world rein in capacity expansion to ease pressure on fares, while United Chief Financial Officer Andrew Levy said the -1000 is also too close in size to the largest Boeing Co. 777 model.

The order revisions suggest that the sweet-spot for twin-engine wide-body orders remains in the 250-350 seat range at a time of excess capacity and with the low oil price making it possible for carriers to put off fleet renewal and upgrades, aerospace consultant Richard Aboulafia said.


Just to bold what seems to be the real underlying issue here. Might be relevant for the future of the 777X thread.

Rgds
 
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Revelation
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Re: A350 Stumbles as Cathay Latest Switch

Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:47 pm

astuteman wrote:
The Cathay decision narrows the order book for the 366-seat A350-1000 to 171 aircraft, based on the planemaker’s latest data, while lifting the backlog for the 325-berth -900 to 679 planes. The larger jetliner is falling out of favor as carriers around the world rein in capacity expansion to ease pressure on fares, while United Chief Financial Officer Andrew Levy said the -1000 is also too close in size to the largest Boeing Co. 777 model.

The order revisions suggest that the sweet-spot for twin-engine wide-body orders remains in the 250-350 seat range at a time of excess capacity and with the low oil price making it possible for carriers to put off fleet renewal and upgrades, aerospace consultant Richard Aboulafia said.


Just to bold what seems to be the real underlying issue here. Might be relevant for the future of the 777X thread.

Interesting to see Richard Aboulafia's opinions on airplanes that are too large now holding sway here on a.net.

And indeed the 77X seems to be getting launched into stormy seas.

Can't be good for the Whale's production gap either.

Regards as always,
Rev.
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hz747300
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:55 am

mercure1 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
CX is putting the brakes on international growth.


:confused: :confused:

Entire CX Group operations is international, and they are growing both in frames and seat capacity.


It's a sore topic. Hong Kong is part of China, so if you view it differently, you're saying China is putting the brakes on non-China growth. That statement does not make sense, they just announced three new beer focused cities: DUB, BRU, CPH; in addition to launching service recently to TLV, and seasonal services to BCN and CHC.

This is probably a right-sizing of capacity move. Including moving to larger frames, the A321s, and right-sizing the long & thin routes to A359s. Probably trying to front run planned long-term growth from HKA too.
Keep on truckin'...
 
astuteman
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Re: A350 Stumbles as Cathay Latest Switch

Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:15 am

Revelation wrote:
astuteman wrote:
The Cathay decision narrows the order book for the 366-seat A350-1000 to 171 aircraft, based on the planemaker’s latest data, while lifting the backlog for the 325-berth -900 to 679 planes. The larger jetliner is falling out of favor as carriers around the world rein in capacity expansion to ease pressure on fares, while United Chief Financial Officer Andrew Levy said the -1000 is also too close in size to the largest Boeing Co. 777 model.

The order revisions suggest that the sweet-spot for twin-engine wide-body orders remains in the 250-350 seat range at a time of excess capacity and with the low oil price making it possible for carriers to put off fleet renewal and upgrades, aerospace consultant Richard Aboulafia said.


Just to bold what seems to be the real underlying issue here. Might be relevant for the future of the 777X thread.

Interesting to see Richard Aboulafia's opinions on airplanes that are too large now holding sway here on a.net.

And indeed the 77X seems to be getting launched into stormy seas.

Can't be good for the Whale's production gap either.

Regards as always,
Rev.


I don't think his opinions hold sway as such. Reality might, though.

I'm not sure the 77X was launched into stormy seas - there are many on here that will readily point to over 300 orders 2 years before EIS and do a little victory jig.
But it does appear that as its maiden voyage approaches, the seas have turned a little rougher.
Two aspects here at play IMO.
1. Much greater competition from a much greater range of very capable smaller aircraft accelerating fragmentation (which most of a-net and most of the industry have long considered a long-term phenomenon) - a headwind for the 77X
2. A current over-capacity in the widebody market - indeed alluded to by RA. This one is more in the nature of a squall - it will blow over at some point, and of course can be used as a reason to explain slow 77X sales at the moment.

And no. Point 1 does not bode well for the A380, and never has

Rgds
 
viviisgb
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:01 am

So will they have a plan to order other aircraft soon
 
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Revelation
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Re: A350 Stumbles as Cathay Latest Switch

Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:00 am

astuteman wrote:
I don't think his opinions hold sway as such. Reality might, though.

I'm not sure the 77X was launched into stormy seas - there are many on here that will readily point to over 300 orders 2 years before EIS and do a little victory jig.
But it does appear that as its maiden voyage approaches, the seas have turned a little rougher.
Two aspects here at play IMO.
1. Much greater competition from a much greater range of very capable smaller aircraft accelerating fragmentation (which most of a-net and most of the industry have long considered a long-term phenomenon) - a headwind for the 77X
2. A current over-capacity in the widebody market - indeed alluded to by RA. This one is more in the nature of a squall - it will blow over at some point, and of course can be used as a reason to explain slow 77X sales at the moment.

And no. Point 1 does not bode well for the A380, and never has

Rgds

Thanks for the reply. It's quite correct, and much more analytical than what I wrote. Hope the squall stays a squall and not another Irma/Harvey/etc but I can imagine that it will be portrayed as such, because these days it seems everything gets exaggerated for effect.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
That is impervious to evidence
 
jfk777
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:23 am

The 777 LN1 is the prototype which will be returned to Boeing after its life at Cathay. This was in the contract when the plane was sold to Cathay.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: CX firms up A321neo order, rejigs A350 order book

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:04 pm

jfk777 wrote:
The 777 LN1 is the prototype which will be returned to Boeing after its life at Cathay. This was in the contract when the plane was sold to Cathay.

Wonder whether there was any similar terms for B-HLJ, the first A330 (that was transferred to KA)?

Also, does anyone know when the oldest A330s would be retired? ie those that were on VR- regs when HK was still a British colony.

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