ei146
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:16 pm

@Francoflier

I agree with most of what you say. AB's fall is certainly not the pilot's fault. They have every right to fight for their rights. But if it is a losing battle from the beginning one question should be allowed: Would it be better to go down in style, accept your losses, show some solidarity with your collegues on a lower income level and keep some chances open for them? Or take everything with you?
 
Alias1024
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:18 pm

TerminalD wrote:
What kind of ^&@#$&* strike an airline on the verge of liquidation? Quit and get another job. Don't be crybabies.

Wouldn't that leave Air Berlin in the same place? If the striking crew simply turned in their resignation and took new jobs the airline would still be short those pilots and canceling flights.
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:26 pm

Alias: Yes, but they have also terms in their working contracts and notice periods. This collective strike action is first of all illegal and is defrauding the company. If I would be the administrator of Air Berlin I would close the shop and claim damages from these pilots which suddenly went sick, so that they would never ever do this kind of strike again.
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vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:33 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
What kind of ^&@#$&* strike an airline on the verge of liquidation? Quit and get another job. Don't be crybabies.

Wouldn't that leave Air Berlin in the same place? If the striking crew simply turned in their resignation and took new jobs the airline would still be short those pilots and canceling flights.


Probably not. If the airline is grounded instead of taken over by another airline in an orderly manner, it will, I assume, loose its AOC and can no longer be sold as a going concern. So probably the rationale behind the strike is "if I have to go under, so should you".
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:40 pm

The pilots are getting on LH to do anything to keep the slots from becoming available to all interested parties. A gamble that imho won't work. LH could use parts of AB, they don't need them.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:42 pm

ei146 wrote:
@Francoflier

I agree with most of what you say. AB's fall is certainly not the pilot's fault. They have every right to fight for their rights. But if it is a losing battle from the beginning one question should be allowed: Would it be better to go down in style, accept your losses, show some solidarity with your collegues on a lower income level and keep some chances open for them? Or take everything with you?


No, they do not have the right to walk out on a wild cat strike. That is, in Germany, illegal. If that Action leads to the grounding of AB, it WAS the pilot's fault. That reckless Action may prevent the Transition of AB from insolvency to the proteced affiliate of a solvent Company. Regardless what the Name is.
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Alias1024
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:06 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
What kind of ^&@#$&* strike an airline on the verge of liquidation? Quit and get another job. Don't be crybabies.

Wouldn't that leave Air Berlin in the same place? If the striking crew simply turned in their resignation and took new jobs the airline would still be short those pilots and canceling flights.


Probably not. If the airline is grounded instead of taken over by another airline in an orderly manner, it will, I assume, loose its AOC and can no longer be sold as a going concern. So probably the rationale behind the strike is "if I have to go under, so should you".

I'm not arguing that the sick out might prevent an orderly transition, just that there isn't a difference operationally between mass sick outs, strikes, and resignations. There aren't pilots to fly the planes.
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:25 pm

PanHAM wrote:
The illegal wild cat strike may well be the end of AB ands that may be even tomorrow if the pilots do not return to work. It looked all so well with an orderly insilvency and the Invitation of bidders for what remained from theairline.
Until 100 or so pilots walked out pretending to be sick, not knowing what they are causing with that reckless Action.

I'll point out it's also illegal and reckless for companies to take on loans/debt it has no plausible way to repay, yet...

PanHAM wrote:
If the Administrator has to decide to declare full bankcruptcy this week, AB will be grounded immediately, the LBA has to revoke the AOC. Pilots will have a lot of spare time, mechanics might work, as well as Office staff and all get severance pay, paid out by the Job Center from a fund all companies and employees pay in monthly.

I'll believe it when I see it.

That is what should be happening, in any case. Either someone picks up the company (good, bad and ugly pieces) and reforms it, or it should be rebooted from scratch.

PanHAM wrote:
The Leasing Company BTW holds the title on the aircraft they lease out. In countries like Germany theym have no Problem to secure their property.

Then there's really no "protection" in bankruptcy, so why bother... Any major secured creditor can simply withdraw their asset and it's all over.
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goosebayguy
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:37 pm

ANyone know where the A330's or other aircraft will be stored?
 
alm1
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:42 pm

When an airline went bankrupt in Lithuania, AOC was revoked immediately. Main stated reason for not waiting for possible rescue scenarios was that pilots would not be able to safely operate flights because of the stress of possible redundancy. This would definitely apply to airBerlin - pilots not fit, under stress - airline should be grounded on safety grounds.
 
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:44 pm

Francoflier wrote:
AB's fate was sealed well before its luckless pilots (along with other employees) decided to rebel against being shortchanged. Let them fight this. It might be a losing battle, but what have they got to lose anyway?

I agree. Now that we're in the end game, everyone from debtors to administrators to managers to employees to parties interested in purchasing parts of the company are all acting along the lines of what they see their best interest to be.

The executive managers are intentionally forcing the unionized employees into inferior contracts in the hopes that they themselves land on their feet in a cushy new gig at EW/LH. If the employees end game involves rebelling against that, so be it. It is the management team who steered the ship on to the rocks. If the result is that everyone fends for themselves, at least it is everyone fending for themselves instead some using their position of power to protect themselves and others fending for themselves.
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PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:50 pm

@ revelation, no it is not illegal to take in loans when the proper procedures have been used.. In this case, the de facto owner Etihad had guaranteed all debt. That was illegal, or semi legal since they would have been allowed only 49,9%, But the Government did not want to pull the plug. That's politics and they have the right to do that.

and, again, the Management of Air Berlin cannot decide anyhing without the OK of the Administrator. This was a costly day for the Company, EW/4U will not only deduct the compensation they have to pay passengers which is about 2 Million at least, they won't pay the daily Leasing rate either. More to that, with todays media coverage, there will hardly be any new bookings. The Parrot is dead.
Last edited by PanHAM on Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:52 pm

"Hey! Our airline is just about to go down due to insolvency! Let's strike for Sick Leave and see what we get!"

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11725Flyer
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see it shut down within a few weeks.
 
fly4ever78
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:56 pm

Francoflier wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that the A.net community is amazingly quick to jump to their guns when it comes to pilots protesting against their employers.

The general preconceived opinion of them is one of overpaid prima donnas who have absolutely no right to complain and are to be blamed for everything, without so much of a cursory look at the underlying contractual and industrial issues, which generally are very complex and completely obscure to those not working within the related company...

When poor management runs an airline to the ground (or any other business for that matter), no one ever seems to blame the corporate leaders who cause hundreds of employees and family to face hardship, but when those employees try to defend themselves and protest after being forcefully handed the sh*tty end of the stick even though they have dedicated a large part of their lives to be good and productive employees for a business that was ruined by others, everybody loses their mind.

I was told when I entered the business that no matter what pilots do to try and defend their generally and globally dwindling conditions, they would never win a PR war. People would rather defend the people who mismanage businesses while rewarding themselves massive remuneration packages or even their customers than the ones who have given their professional lives to that business.

I suppose the stereotype of the pompous, overpaid and lazy pilot who complains about bad meal trays will take time to die...
The reality, on the other hand, has largely caught up with the profession already. Pilots spend vasts amount of money for training and dedicated their lives to the craft only to enter a perennially unstable career where the beancounters have managed to diminish the conditions of service to sometimes nothing short of modern slavery, with the constant and often uninsured threat of losing their medical and with it, their entire career.

AB's fate was sealed well before its luckless pilots (along with other employees) decided to rebel against being shortchanged. Let them fight this. It might be a losing battle, but what have they got to lose anyway?



I couldn't have said it better myself! The industry as a whole is now going to have to face the shortage of pilots that they have helped to create. News flash, pilots don't make the business decisions at an airline!!
 
LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:23 pm

fly4ever78 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that the A.net community is amazingly quick to jump to their guns when it comes to pilots protesting against their employers.

The general preconceived opinion of them is one of overpaid prima donnas who have absolutely no right to complain and are to be blamed for everything, without so much of a cursory look at the underlying contractual and industrial issues, which generally are very complex and completely obscure to those not working within the related company...

When poor management runs an airline to the ground (or any other business for that matter), no one ever seems to blame the corporate leaders who cause hundreds of employees and family to face hardship, but when those employees try to defend themselves and protest after being forcefully handed the sh*tty end of the stick even though they have dedicated a large part of their lives to be good and productive employees for a business that was ruined by others, everybody loses their mind.

I was told when I entered the business that no matter what pilots do to try and defend their generally and globally dwindling conditions, they would never win a PR war. People would rather defend the people who mismanage businesses while rewarding themselves massive remuneration packages or even their customers than the ones who have given their professional lives to that business.

I suppose the stereotype of the pompous, overpaid and lazy pilot who complains about bad meal trays will take time to die...
The reality, on the other hand, has largely caught up with the profession already. Pilots spend vasts amount of money for training and dedicated their lives to the craft only to enter a perennially unstable career where the beancounters have managed to diminish the conditions of service to sometimes nothing short of modern slavery, with the constant and often uninsured threat of losing their medical and with it, their entire career.

AB's fate was sealed well before its luckless pilots (along with other employees) decided to rebel against being shortchanged. Let them fight this. It might be a losing battle, but what have they got to lose anyway?



I couldn't have said it better myself! The industry as a whole is now going to have to face the shortage of pilots that they have helped to create. News flash, pilots don't make the business decisions at an airline!!


No, Pilots don't make the business decisions, but they do take a very good wage each month, especially if on an old LTU contract. I find it shocking that the highest paid community do this. Ver.di made a statement that it is "understandable" and that they could see other departments doing this. Well, not here in Technik, not in Cabin Crew, not in Admin, and in general not in Pilots on new Air Berlin contracts. I think it is really unbelievable what they did today. We just got an e-mail that this action cost Air Berlin 5 Million Euros today and jeopardizes any potential deals with new investors. It makes me ashamed to be associated with LTU now. Time for a username change.
 
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:17 pm

PanHAM wrote:
@ revelation, no it is not illegal to take in loans when the proper procedures have been used.. In this case, the de facto owner Etihad had guaranteed all debt. That was illegal, or semi legal since they would have been allowed only 49,9%, But the Government did not want to pull the plug. That's politics and they have the right to do that.

It seems in retrospect the investors needed to have some understanding of how committed QR was to this Air Berlin investment.

PanHAM wrote:
and, again, the Management of Air Berlin cannot decide anyhing without the OK of the Administrator. This was a costly day for the Company, EW/4U will not only deduct the compensation they have to pay passengers which is about 2 Million at least, they won't pay the daily Leasing rate either. More to that, with todays media coverage, there will hardly be any new bookings. The Parrot is dead.

Sure, but management is the ones who develop the plans and present them to the administrators. Clearly they do this with guidance of administrators but still they can/do have their own agenda and a lot of influence on events.

I agree, the parrot is dead, sigh.
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TerminalD
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:25 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
What kind of ^&@#$&* strike an airline on the verge of liquidation? Quit and get another job. Don't be crybabies.

Wouldn't that leave Air Berlin in the same place? If the striking crew simply turned in their resignation and took new jobs the airline would still be short those pilots and canceling flights.

People have every right to leave for a better job. Striking an airline about to liquidate is stupid and accomplishes nothing positive.
 
dcaviation
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:36 pm

Again, why most of you blame pilots for wasting $12 Billion dollars?
 
vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:45 pm

If you check out some German forums, you will note that all the other employee groups - 7.800 in total - are up in arms about the stunt the small group of 200 senior pilots has pulled today because all those non pilot colleagues now fear that they have lost all chances to stay employed - while those pilots will simply move to the next airline in China, the UAE or whereever, admin, maintenance, groundstaff do not have that opportunity.
Last edited by vfw614 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:50 pm

dcaviation wrote:
Again, why most of you blame pilots for wasting $12 Billion dollars?


They are NOT blaming the Pilots for wasting 12 Billion Dollars. They are blaming the 200+ mostly former LTU Pilots for going "sick" at a time when ALL 8000 employees need to show they have a work ethic that would be wanted by any potential investors or buyers of the various areas of Air Berlin. If they don't want to, or cannot provide that, then they will end up at the Arbeitsamt, but they can have it on their consciences that in the end they will have contributed to destroying any chance of a good number of hard working people from having had a chance to move across to anyone who would have taken them if the insolvency could continue in a controlled way. The worst thing is that these particular Pilots who made bucket loads of cash on LTU contracts can probably finish their careers flying for a Tax free ME3 Airline, whilst for normal workers like Maintenance and Administration it will be not that easy at all.
 
ExDubai
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:55 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised to see it shut down within a few weeks.

The big question is what happens with the lessors. Aer-Cap pulled the plug, and the question is why
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ei146
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:03 pm

LTU330 wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
Again, why most of you blame pilots for wasting $12 Billion dollars?


They are NOT blaming the Pilots for wasting 12 Billion Dollars. They are blaming the 200+ mostly former LTU Pilots for going "sick" at a time when ALL 8000 employees need to show they have a work ethic that would be wanted by any potential investors or buyers of the various areas of Air Berlin. If they don't want to, or cannot provide that, then they will end up at the Arbeitsamt, but they can have it on their consciences that in the end they will have contributed to destroying any chance of a good number of hard working people from having had a chance to move across to anyone who would have taken them if the insolvency could continue in a controlled way. The worst thing is that these particular Pilots who made bucket loads of cash on LTU contracts can probably finish their careers flying for a Tax free ME3 Airline, whilst for normal workers like Maintenance and Administration it will be not that easy at all.


:bigthumbsup: I could not have said it better.
 
ei146
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:10 pm

PanHAM wrote:
ei146 wrote:
@Francoflier

I agree with most of what you say. AB's fall is certainly not the pilot's fault. They have every right to fight for their rights. But if it is a losing battle from the beginning one question should be allowed: Would it be better to go down in style, accept your losses, show some solidarity with your collegues on a lower income level and keep some chances open for them? Or take everything with you?


No, they do not have the right to walk out on a wild cat strike. That is, in Germany, illegal. If that Action leads to the grounding of AB, it WAS the pilot's fault. That reckless Action may prevent the Transition of AB from insolvency to the proteced affiliate of a solvent Company. Regardless what the Name is.


Hi PanHAM, don't you realise that we both say the same here? :-)
 
kiowa
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:24 pm

Lots of people blaming the pilots for trying to look after themselves when the corporate execs are looking out for themselves, the investors are looking out for themselves, the passengers are trying to lookout for themselves and the management certainly has their own interests foremost in their minds. The pilots are doing what they think is right for their own interests. Good luck to them. The blame for the failure of AB is certainly not theirs.
 
LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:37 pm

kiowa wrote:
Lots of people blaming the pilots for trying to look after themselves when the corporate execs are looking out for themselves, the investors are looking out for themselves, the passengers are trying to lookout for themselves and the management certainly has their own interests foremost in their minds. The pilots are doing what they think is right for their own interests. Good luck to them. The blame for the failure of AB is certainly not theirs.


Pilots looking out for themselves ! Maybe I and my team should look out for ourselves, then not one of the Air Berlin Aircraft would leave the ground, even if all Pilots turned up. The difference is, we are prepared to work our bits off to TRY and make Air Berlin attractive to potential investors or buyers. We don't have that "F you lot" mentality or attitude. As for Corporate Execs, well I think that is the same all over the World, and once again NO ONE is blaming the Pilots for Air Berlins failure. They are just making it impossible for anything good to come out of it for all the "minions" beneath them in the food chain.
 
Planesmart
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:40 pm

PanHAM wrote:
@ revelation, no it is not illegal to take in loans when the proper procedures have been used.. In this case, the de facto owner Etihad had guaranteed all debt. That was illegal, or semi legal since they would have been allowed only 49,9%, But the Government did not want to pull the plug.

There is no restriction on who can guarantee debt. If a shareholder, financier or other party owns 49.9% of a business, but guarantees 100% of it's debt, bring it on.

If a shareholder has issued debt guarantees in excess of the percentage of their shareholding, they are to be applauded. If they make good under those guarantees, they are truly blue chip investors.

If lenders, leasors and others, relied on those guarantees, without them, what's happening now, would have happened sooner.

However, if a 49.9% owner, guaranteeing 100% of the debt, behaves, or is deemed to have behaved as if it owns more than 49.9% of the company, in terms of decision making, protecting it's own exposure, acquisitions, new business, etc, that is not legal.

Creditors use forensic accountants, investigators, and lobby administrators/receivers to ascertain if undue influence was involved in part or all of a business, especially if a party is involved with deep pockets, financially able to clear creditors exposure.

It's not only shareholders that have to be careful. Financiers, and others with influence, must ensure they are not seen to be giving advice, other than suggesting a business seeks specialist, independent advice. Even recommending particular advisers can be challenged as influencing, if a liquidation or receivership is the result.

Anyone involved in aviation finance at birth, life or especially death, has first hand experience of how suddenly, action taken a decade or more ago, can come under the closest scrutiny. That's why it's commonplace to take detailed diary notes, and increasingly, record conversations, and ensure an audit trail is preserved of all documents and conversations.
 
vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:40 pm

The general feeling is that 200 pilots at the top of the seniority ladder with extremely high salaries (a result of a merger a decade ago) are killing off the chance for 7.800 colleagues to stay in employment - colleagues without whom they would have been unable to work for airberlin in the past decade. It is human to be egoistic in such a situation, but you cannot realistically expect that the general public has a grain of sympathy for them.
 
LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:49 pm

vfw614 wrote:
The general feeling is that 200 pilots at the top of the seniority ladder with extremely high salaries (a result of a merger a decade ago) are killing off the chance for 7.800 colleagues to stay in employment - colleagues without whom they would have been unable to work for airberlin in the past decade. It is human to be egoistic in such a situation, but you cannot realistically expect that the general public has a grain of sympathy for them.


....................exactly ! Maybe Air Berlin should have terminated all those contracts back then and after one year they could take the new contract or leave. I changed over to a new contract already which is a new one created to merge the old LTU one and Air Berlin one (in Maintenance). Still we work 2.5 hours per week less than those who joined on Air Berlin contracts (which is ridiculous in my opinion), but other than that the money is the same, that means (not now due to this disaster) my pay dropped around 300 Euro per month, but it is/was a job. Funny how we have that but not the Pilots on old LTU contracts !
 
dcaviation
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:56 pm

vfw614 wrote:
The general feeling is that 200 pilots at the top of the seniority ladder with extremely high salaries (a result of a merger a decade ago) are killing off the chance for 7.800 colleagues to stay in employment - colleagues without whom they would have been unable to work for airberlin in the past decade. It is human to be egoistic in such a situation, but you cannot realistically expect that the general public has a grain of sympathy for them.


Absolutely wrong. The management killed off the chance of 8k employees to work for Air Berlin.
They were using the airline as their personal piggy bank...
 
vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:04 pm

I am simply telling you what the general feeling in the German media and the German public is - feelings are what they are, they are not "wrong". If you read German, just browse google news and German message boards. If your personal view is different, that's fine. It will, however, not change how the actions of the pilots are perceived by the vast majority of Germans who read the news todays.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:16 pm

'sick strike' = pilots interviewing at other airlines.

QR and Easyjet are holding interviews in Berlin, no registration necessary.

https://www.austrianwings.info/2017/08/ ... n-piloten/

Airberlin 2017 per 100km:

RASK €6.97
CASK €8.19
 
kiowa
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:21 pm

LTU330 wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
The general feeling is that 200 pilots at the top of the seniority ladder with extremely high salaries (a result of a merger a decade ago) are killing off the chance for 7.800 colleagues to stay in employment - colleagues without whom they would have been unable to work for airberlin in the past decade. It is human to be egoistic in such a situation, but you cannot realistically expect that the general public has a grain of sympathy for them.


....................exactly ! Maybe Air Berlin should have terminated all those contracts back then and after one year they could take the new contract or leave. I changed over to a new contract already which is a new one created to merge the old LTU one and Air Berlin one (in Maintenance). Still we work 2.5 hours per week less than those who joined on Air Berlin contracts (which is ridiculous in my opinion), but other than that the money is the same, that means (not now due to this disaster) my pay dropped around 300 Euro per month, but it is/was a job. Funny how we have that but not the Pilots on old LTU contracts !



There again is blame on management in your own words. They are at fault for not changing contracts. Why is it that some professions are expected to look out for themselves first and other professions are considered evil when they do the same?
 
Alias1024
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:53 pm

TerminalD wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
What kind of ^&@#$&* strike an airline on the verge of liquidation? Quit and get another job. Don't be crybabies.

Wouldn't that leave Air Berlin in the same place? If the striking crew simply turned in their resignation and took new jobs the airline would still be short those pilots and canceling flights.

People have every right to leave for a better job. Striking an airline about to liquidate is stupid and accomplishes nothing positive.

Of course they have every right to seek a new job. I was simply pointing out that your advice to those "crybabies" would leave Air Berlin in the same predicament.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:07 pm

Sad, but true: In today's environment, they will not be able to keep their contracts if they want to keep working in Germany. Their sick out will not result in keeping those contracts, it will only result in the airline going under before a partial take-over deal, however bad it may be, can de inked. So they could (should?) have shown some compassion for their colleagues in groundhandling, maintenance, administration, cabin who earn much less, are much less flexible on the job market and are now most likely deprived of their chance to stay in employment with an investor.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:23 pm

Idiots! I would not invest in such a company. Why would you? Just let Air Berlin die off and pick up the pieces which you can use. Pilots can try again with the new company.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
32andBelow
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:10 pm

DL/AA/UA/AS/WN should lobby congress for immediate visa for all these pilots to US!
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Idiots! I would not invest in such a company. Why would you? Just let Air Berlin die off and pick up the pieces which you can use. Pilots can try again with the new company.

Pilots must realize the same so either (a) they feel that their sick-out can create pressure on potential buyers to close deals with better terms for pilots else the collapse will result in the buyer having to start from scratch (and in particular without slots in hand) or (b) they are doing what brexit / trump voters did and are blowing things up because they can (and/or they're bitter).
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:50 pm

To be honest, anyway the German government will pay everyone for at least 3 months to come. All AB pilots willing to work, will find a job elsewhere, if AB will not continue. The chance that some serious investor will show up an buy entire Air Berlin to continue everything including the problems is almost 0 Oct. So this way or the other , many people will loose their jobs (after election period is over). They just waiting for that moment.
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Varsity1
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:54 pm

32andBelow wrote:
DL/AA/UA/AS/WN should lobby congress for immediate visa for all these pilots to US!


Why? None of them have FAA ATP's or FAA type ratings. There is no shortage of pilots applying to the legacies, they have thousands upon thousands of applicants.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:54 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
DL/AA/UA/AS/WN should lobby congress for immediate visa for all these pilots to US!


Why? None of them have FAA ATP's or FAA type ratings. There is no shortage of pilots applying to the legacies, they have thousands upon thousands of applicants.

You know it's the same thousands and thousands at every legacy right? And some (AS/VX) are hiring so fast you can get a class 2 weeks after you apply. But What do I know.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:01 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
DL/AA/UA/AS/WN should lobby congress for immediate visa for all these pilots to US!


Why? None of them have FAA ATP's or FAA type ratings. There is no shortage of pilots applying to the legacies, they have thousands upon thousands of applicants.

You know it's the same thousands and thousands at every legacy right? And some (AS/VX) are hiring so fast you can get a class 2 weeks after you apply. But What do I know.


There are 28,000 pilots flying for regionals right now, more than all the legacies combined. AS/VX aren't hiring very many, AS only retired 46 pilots this year.

The labor market has been horrendous to pilots for two decades. Give them a break for once.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:24 pm

ExDubai wrote:
11725Flyer wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised to see it shut down within a few weeks.

The big question is what happens with the lessors. Aer-Cap pulled the plug, and the question is why

A big deal aercap pulling ten A330-200s quick.

I found a link and had it translated:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... RXX2jUz6eg

Wow... I too wonder why...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:42 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
To be honest, anyway the German government will pay everyone for at least 3 months to come. All AB pilots willing to work, will find a job elsewhere, if AB will not continue. The chance that some serious investor will show up an buy entire Air Berlin to continue everything including the problems is almost 0 Oct. So this way or the other , many people will loose their jobs (after election period is over). They just waiting for that moment.


Yes and no. The 3 months already started. And they will only pay up to the so called Beitragsbemessungsgrenze, i.e. 4350€ per month. Due to being scared of the pilots running away, AB asked to be exempt and pay out the difference. This means if AB gets grounded now, Pilots will only receive these 4350€ a month for September and October.

What I personally ask myself, regarding the slots, is that they should be fulfilling the 80% usage rule soon, or am I off? This would mean they could ground the operation, but maybe still sell the slots?
 
Alias1024
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:48 pm

Varsity1 wrote:

There are 28,000 pilots flying for regionals right now, more than all the legacies combined.


AA has around 14,500 on their list, DL has 14,200 and UA has 12,700. WN, while not a legacy, has 8,600.

So way more than 28,000 at the big 4
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:37 am

Alias1024 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

There are 28,000 pilots flying for regionals right now, more than all the legacies combined.


AA has around 14,500 on their list, DL has 14,200 and UA has 12,700. WN, while not a legacy, has 8,600.

So way more than 28,000 at the big 4


Should have been more specific. We were talking about retirements, all the legacy retirements combined.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:55 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Who would buy tickets post August on AB?

This isnt US chap 11!

You have to take ownership of your decisions. If you bought a ticket on air Berlin after this filing, you know what you're in for.

As for those purchased before August, it stinks...but the company is gone.


Yep, in other parts of the world the company goes bye-bye, just like they should. Here in the US, corporate is allowed to gamble all their money away and the US awards them with CH 11, while allowing them to keep their golden parachutes and free to repeat the process again and again. It's disgusting really. Delta, American, Allegiant, Frontier, and United should be out of business right now. Alaska, JetBlue, and Southwest should be looked up to for finding ways to avoid bankruptcy and screwing over you and me.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
robsaw
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:43 am

Francoflier wrote:
...

AB's fate was sealed well before its luckless pilots (along with other employees) decided to rebel against being shortchanged. Let them fight this. It might be a losing battle, but what have they got to lose anyway?


What they have to lose is an accelerated shutdown of their employer and other employees jobs with it. Maybe a few weeks pay in total.

The better question is what have they got to gain?
 
RichardWelling
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:40 am

PanHAM wrote:
The sick-out includes pilos who fly aircraft leased out to EUW and 4U, at least they have a paying Job. But they want to Keep the old LTU and AB pay which is not realistic. Obviously the talks broke down on that. Realistic is that they accept the EUW tarrif or hire in such beautiful countries like Qatar.


Not too sure if was case of excellent timing or coincidence but QR is conducting pilot roadshows in TXL and DUS.
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 609
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:10 am

Varsity1 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Why? None of them have FAA ATP's or FAA type ratings. There is no shortage of pilots applying to the legacies, they have thousands upon thousands of applicants.

You know it's the same thousands and thousands at every legacy right? And some (AS/VX) are hiring so fast you can get a class 2 weeks after you apply. But What do I know.


There are 28,000 pilots flying for regionals right now, more than all the legacies combined. AS/VX aren't hiring very many, AS only retired 46 pilots this year.

The labor market has been horrendous to pilots for two decades. Give them a break for once.

Heaven forbid they go fly at at Norwegian for TATL ops.

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