LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:38 am

kiowa wrote:
LTU330 wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
The general feeling is that 200 pilots at the top of the seniority ladder with extremely high salaries (a result of a merger a decade ago) are killing off the chance for 7.800 colleagues to stay in employment - colleagues without whom they would have been unable to work for airberlin in the past decade. It is human to be egoistic in such a situation, but you cannot realistically expect that the general public has a grain of sympathy for them.


....................exactly ! Maybe Air Berlin should have terminated all those contracts back then and after one year they could take the new contract or leave. I changed over to a new contract already which is a new one created to merge the old LTU one and Air Berlin one (in Maintenance). Still we work 2.5 hours per week less than those who joined on Air Berlin contracts (which is ridiculous in my opinion), but other than that the money is the same, that means (not now due to this disaster) my pay dropped around 300 Euro per month, but it is/was a job. Funny how we have that but not the Pilots on old LTU contracts !



There again is blame on management in your own words. They are at fault for not changing contracts. Why is it that some professions are expected to look out for themselves first and other professions are considered evil when they do the same?


The blame for the contracts is on the managers, however these old LTU Captains have been on the gravy train because contracts were not changed. Now at the worst possible time they are going sick to probably attend interviews with QR and U2. If it is found that any single one of those people went to an interview whilst off sick they can and will be taken to court. They, with their selfish actions caused misery for thousands of passengers, and untold harm to their 7800 colleagues. No other group of Air Berlin employees is looking out for themselves at the moment, and don't think this is a general Pilot bashing, it is about 200 particular people, and today around 150, maybe less (hopefully) if they read and digested the letter from the CEO last night.
 
fly4ever78
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:43 am

Varsity1 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Why? None of them have FAA ATP's or FAA type ratings. There is no shortage of pilots applying to the legacies, they have thousands upon thousands of applicants.

You know it's the same thousands and thousands at every legacy right? And some (AS/VX) are hiring so fast you can get a class 2 weeks after you apply. But What do I know.


There are 28,000 pilots flying for regionals right now, more than all the legacies combined. AS/VX aren't hiring very many, AS only retired 46 pilots this year.

The labor market has been horrendous to pilots for two decades. Give them a break for once.


That's not even close to being accurate! 32,000 pilots will retire by the year 2030 in the US. And that is just a conservative estimate.

I do agree with you though, this is a pilot's market now in the US and the fortunes are turning. They have created this environment and those at regionals in the US have a long memory of how badly they were treated.

I feel for the Air Berlin employees that are going to lose their jobs, but to blame the pilots is an easy out. They were put in this position after decisions made by management. They will be long gone with everyone's money, looking back and watching all the arguing amongst the groups. I truly hope you are all able to find employment quickly!
 
speedbird217
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:24 am

I find it remarkable how many people on here blame "the management". Who exactly are "the management"?
Are they some SPECTRE-like group or Dr. Evils that all meet in a Volcano lair every Tuesday to decide the best way of ruining an airline and the lifes of thousands of people?

Yes, there has been gross mismanagement over the years. A lot of that probably under past "management" that piled layer after layer onto the s%#t sandwich they are now left to hold.

According to various people on here all the managers and executives are already sitting in a villa next to their stack of money on a Pacific island. That's ridiculous - those people will need to go out there and look for a new job like everybody else. Having "Leading Air Berlin into insolvency as Finance Director" on your CV is not something that helps.

LTU was acquired by Air Berlin 10 years ago. That's when all those legacy contracts moved over, and with every passing year it got more difficult to change those conditions. The lack of a strategy (trying to have multiple business models in one), unsustainable growth and agreeing to astronomically expensive leasing contracts is not something that has happened recently and while some of those responsible may still be around there will be plenty in the "management" who had nothing to do with that and were bound to lose from the day they started working there.

I'm not saying management didn't screw up, they did. However, the level of hypocrisy of defending one group against generalisation and then putting the blame on another general group in the next sentence is staggering.
 
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sergegva
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:33 am

vfw614 wrote:

From a consumer point of view, this is an absolute shame.


Absolutely not. Insolvency with people you do business with is a risk of everyday life. You can insure against that, e.g. by not purchasing tickets 6 months in advance, but the day before your flight. It is much more expensive then, but that is the premium to be on the safe side of a potential insolvency.


Another way is to make laws that protect consumers in such cases.
 
vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:24 am

How exactly? Insolvency means a company has run out of funds. Do you want the public purse to spend taxpayers' money? There can only be one rule for all - for plumber Joe just as much as an airline doing business.

In that particular case, it is not as the dire situation of airberlin was unknown to someone with access to google.
 
beerockxs
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:04 am

LTU330 wrote:
If it is found that any single one of those people went to an interview whilst off sick they can and will be taken to court.


Bullshit. While on sick leave, you can do anything that doesn't impede your recovery. A job interview certainly does not.
 
vfw614
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:17 am

According to the media, despite yesterday's plea of the CEO and the insolvency administrator to show up for work today or face the grounding of the airline, 149 pilots have called in sick today (yesterday approx. 200).

So my guess is that the insolvency administrator will now prepare to shut down the shop. I would not be suprised if airberlin does not make it into next week.
 
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sergegva
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:25 am

vfw614 wrote:
How exactly? Insolvency means a company has run out of funds. Do you want the public purse to spend taxpayers' money? There can only be one rule for all - for plumber Joe just as much as an airline doing business.

In that particular case, it is not as the dire situation of airberlin was unknown to someone with access to google.


This is off topic, but there are several possibilities. One of them is forcing all companies to create a fund in anticipation of bankruptcy, intended to reimburse consumers. Or governments could create it, financed by corporate taxes. It seems necessary in a business where consumers buy a service often several months in advance.

In this particular case, aviation geeks & Germans excluded, nobody has the slightest idea of the disturbances AirBerlin is going through, not even today. General public will buy a ticket with Air Berlin if it appears on a comparator.
 
LTU330
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:27 am

beerockxs wrote:
LTU330 wrote:
If it is found that any single one of those people went to an interview whilst off sick they can and will be taken to court.


Bullshit. While on sick leave, you can do anything that doesn't impede your recovery. A job interview certainly does not.


Not bullshit at all. You can do necessary things like going to the doctor, buying food, but not going for interviews. Of course it depends of what reason you are sick, for example if you broke your arm and could not work because of that you can do what you want. If you are off sick because you are having flu or whatever, going for an interview will impede your recovery. You are not resting and could catch any other strain of the flu. Take in to account, these people are not sick they are faking sickness. Don't say it might not be true. This is an organized protest even supported by ver.di in a veiled way.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:55 am

They even get paid for the days they are "sick". It is hard to prove but it is actually raud. The Union should not Support tat at all, for the benefit of the majority of employees.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:26 am

speedbird217 wrote:
I'm not saying management didn't screw up, they did. However, the level of hypocrisy of defending one group against generalisation and then putting the blame on another general group in the next sentence is staggering.

Since you're defending management, please tell us what management is doing to address the totally predictable move of a pilot sick-out, other than the CEO writing an angry letter trying to guilt the pilots into abandoning a course of action that is clearly having the kind of impact they want. In essence the CEO is doing nothing more than confirming their actions are having the intended result.

Since this is so predictable, why aren't papers being served to the union leaders right now? Lawyers should have been waiting near the proper venues just waiting for this kind of action to occur, with brief cases filled with papers for the right judges to sign, and the union leaders should be under great pressure right now.

Instead we read:

Germany's giant services sector union Verdi expressed solidarity with the absent pilots and warned that more workers could call in sick.

Verdi board member Christine Behle said: "All the conversations surrounding insolvent Air Berlin are always about its economic interests, never about the jobs of its more than 8,000 employees.

"The fear and anger among Air Berlin staff is escalating because the future of whole families are at stake."

Ref: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41244015

How is that not true? The power brokers of this world are carving off the biggest pieces for themselves, the managers are busy navigating themselves towards the best possible landing spot in the new regime, and as for the workers that make it all happen, let them eat cake.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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asdf
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:39 am

im am NOT an insider in this case, but local german and austrian media covers a move of assents from AB to fly niki in the last months.
LH is arranged to buy fly niki with those open and not so open visible assets.
rest of AB is to be trashed

this plans have been running well till niki lauda last week officially declared his interest on buying the fly niki part of the company, too

i have no idea if this strike now has something to do with this development
but the long haul pilots maybe recognised now that they never were a part of the futur of the airline

not from LH neither from niki
 
Zaf
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:48 am

It would have been smarter to shut it down immediately and provide 150M€ to other airlines to carry stranded passengers.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:56 am

vfw614 wrote:
According to the media, despite yesterday's plea of the CEO and the insolvency administrator to show up for work today or face the grounding of the airline, 149 pilots have called in sick today (yesterday approx. 200).

So my guess is that the insolvency administrator will now prepare to shut down the shop. I would not be suprised if airberlin does not make it into next week.

Might be even quicker than that, if fuel suppliers and caterers feel that they are not gonna get paid in full.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:05 pm

vfw614 wrote:
How exactly? Insolvency means a company has run out of funds. Do you want the public purse to spend taxpayers' money? There can only be one rule for all - for plumber Joe just as much as an airline doing business.

In that particular case, it is not as the dire situation of airberlin was unknown to someone with access to google.


The U.S. had a lot of airline bankruptcies and consumers lost little in ticket purchases: credit card payments had been held in escrow. Payments hadn't been forwarded to the carriers and there is a process for consumers to reclaim funds from their credit card issuer. That is, in fact, a market solution - negotiation between a carrier and its payment processor.

http://www.reuters.com/article/airlines ... 6220081006

AB's insolvency is a great compare-and-contrast exercise in bankruptcy law. In U.S. Chapter 11, the primary goal is keeping the company operating and restructuring (terminating leases, terminating purchase contracts, wiping out debt, wiping out shareholders) with the goal of preserving some jobs. Often this means the same dufus management that drove the company into bankruptcy continues to run it while in bankruptcy and beyond. It also places burdens on competitors - firms don't fail quickly so the market doesn't get rationalized. Insolvency law in other jurisdictions may place a higher priority on getting maximum value for creditors - shutting down a money-losing firm quickly before it destroys even more asset value.

I can appreciate that AB pilots don't want to take a reduction in compensation nor lose their jobs but there is no money, and there is no outside investor willing to lose money for years to come. The game has played out.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:34 pm

AB is a bad example for comparing bankcruptcy laws n the US and Europe, particularly Germany.Consumers may protect themselves by covering insurance, paymet by credit Card may have covered that automatically but that is not the Point.
If it wasn't for Etihad and the UAE, Air Berlin would have had to declare bankcruptcy years ago. Only the umbrella coverage signed by EY kept AB flying. The idea to Play a role in aviation in Europe, outside their home Turf, causedd ths Desaster and there is more in aiting, with AZ,

Don't blame local Managers, they must do what the owners require and in a debtr ridden Company there is not much room for own decisions. The People who have to be blamed for this sit in Abu Dhabi and in Australia, or wherever Hogan is now..
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
bennett123
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:09 pm

Without EY, what would have changed apart from bankruptcy for AB/AZ several years ago.
 
anjin
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:08 pm

AB needs to close and launch again without legacy hangover of LTU and AB. Some crews don't even have aircraft at their "base". Can't do this or that due to Union rules.
Fine if your making money but if not it's back to basics.
And guess what if it did fail, the Pilots will get jobs - might not be where they want but they will. The Ground Staff and Cabin Crew - only time will tell
 
Alias1024
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
In U.S. Chapter 11, the primary goal is keeping the company operating and restructuring (terminating leases, terminating purchase contracts, wiping out debt, wiping out shareholders) with the goal of preserving some jobs.

Chapter 11 isn't about preserving jobs. It's about offering a potentially more lucrative option to creditors besides a liquidation. It's a nice benefit that most employees will still have jobs, but the goal of Chapter 11 is maximizing the recovery of what creditors are owed.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:12 pm

Zaf wrote:
It would have been smarter to shut it down immediately and provide 150M€ to other airlines to carry stranded passengers.


Not really, as the loan is covered by saved payments for insolvency protection of the employees.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:18 pm

PanHAM wrote:
If it wasn't for Etihad and the UAE, Air Berlin would have had to declare bankcruptcy years ago. Only the umbrella coverage signed by EY kept AB flying. The idea to Play a role in aviation in Europe, outside their home Turf, causedd ths Desaster and there is more in aiting, with AZ,

Don't blame local Managers, they must do what the owners require and in a debtr ridden Company there is not much room for own decisions. The People who have to be blamed for this sit in Abu Dhabi and in Australia, or wherever Hogan is now..

I agree with your comments on EY's role.

On the other hand, if it is common knowledge that the only reason why the whole thing was still afloat was EY's billions, I don't understand why it's OK for the executives and the managers to keep taking EY's geld, yet the pilots are expected to be noble and take a stand and find different jobs because it was clear the thing was a sham.

EDIT -- typos...
Last edited by Revelation on Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:20 pm

anjin wrote:
AB needs to close and launch again without legacy hangover of LTU and AB.

Yes, but the LHs of the world do not want an AB shutdown -- that would put the valuable slots onto the open market. They want the best of both world: they get the slots, and the employees get "new contracts" i.e. they get the shaft.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:22 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
Chapter 11 isn't about preserving jobs. It's about offering a potentially more lucrative option to creditors besides a liquidation. It's a nice benefit that most employees will still have jobs, but the goal of Chapter 11 is maximizing the recovery of what creditors are owed.

Yes, yet in the EU in general and DE in particular, bankruptcy puts employees much higher on list of priorities during a liquidation. It's another reason why the LHs of this world want to buy the assets before liquidation -- less benefits flow out of the corporation and into the employee's hands.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
caverunner17
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:34 pm

Hi all,

Stupid question here. I booked a flight from TXL-MUC for Sept 24th. Should I at this point just do a new booking on LH?
 
Birdwatching
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:23 pm

The cause of the mass sick leave has now been revealed and it's not what most people think it is. This was published by a well respected investigative news site, sorry link only in German:

http://www.der-postillon.com/2017/09/ai ... k.html?m=1

Basically, we had really warm weather in Germany until the end of last week and the sudden change to the cold and stormy weather came a week before AB changed from the short sleeved summer uniform to the winter uniform, so most pilots who flew with the windows open over the weekend caught a pretty bad flu which they should recover from in the next days. So maybe we should give them a break and calm down a little.

Image
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:33 pm

LOL, you made my day, Birdwatching.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:37 pm

seahawk wrote:
Zaf wrote:
It would have been smarter to shut it down immediately and provide 150M€ to other airlines to carry stranded passengers.


Not really, as the loan is covered by saved payments for insolvency protection of the employees.


There's no Connection between the loan and the insolvency payment of wages. These payments come from the Job Center and it is fuelled by mandatory unemployment insurance, paid by emplyees and employers every month.Like health and Pension insurance
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:46 pm

PanHAM wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Zaf wrote:
It would have been smarter to shut it down immediately and provide 150M€ to other airlines to carry stranded passengers.


Not really, as the loan is covered by saved payments for insolvency protection of the employees.


There's no Connection between the loan and the insolvency payment of wages. These payments come from the Job Center and it is fuelled by mandatory unemployment insurance, paid by emplyees and employers every month.Like health and Pension insurance

And as the loan allows the wages to be paid, such a loan is usually backed in large parts by the sum of money not paid as insolvency money.
 
bennett123
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:01 pm

So the weather turned colder and the pilots were so dumb that they flew with the windows open.

Really??.
 
DDR
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:31 pm

LTU330 wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
Again, why most of you blame pilots for wasting $12 Billion dollars?


They are NOT blaming the Pilots for wasting 12 Billion Dollars. They are blaming the 200+ mostly former LTU Pilots for going "sick" at a time when ALL 8000 employees need to show they have a work ethic that would be wanted by any potential investors or buyers of the various areas of Air Berlin. If they don't want to, or cannot provide that, then they will end up at the Arbeitsamt, but they can have it on their consciences that in the end they will have contributed to destroying any chance of a good number of hard working people from having had a chance to move across to anyone who would have taken them if the insolvency could continue in a controlled way. The worst thing is that these particular Pilots who made bucket loads of cash on LTU contracts can probably finish their careers flying for a Tax free ME3 Airline, whilst for normal workers like Maintenance and Administration it will be not that easy at all.


LTU330 I have much respect for you. I hope you will be fine and end up in a better position in the end my friend.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:47 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So the weather turned colder and the pilots were so dumb that they flew with the windows open.

Really??.
It must be true, we all know Germans don't makes jokes, ever.
Attamottamotta!
 
Kilopond
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:41 pm

Those rebel pilots are just present-day swing rioters [DE "Maschinenstürmer"]. Their cause is totally lost because they do not realise that the interregnum "social market economy" is over once and for all. Radical precarization is now the one and only aim of the ruling circles.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:49 pm

Those pilots will all be blacklisted and will never work in any meaningful cockpit position again in Germany. Maybe some gulf airline will have mercy with those insane people.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:31 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Those pilots will all be blacklisted and will never work in any meaningful cockpit position again in Germany. Maybe some gulf airline will have mercy with those insane people.


Down there they would get incarcernated as soon as they would engage in ANY union activities.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:14 am

@ seahawk - the wages are paid from the unemployment insurance, which would have helped with or without the loan. They pay for three months and the coffers of that insurance are overflowing, no Problem to pay out.
The loan is tfor keeping AB flying and protectig the AOC until an Investor is found.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
aviationaware
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:54 am

Kilopond wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Those pilots will all be blacklisted and will never work in any meaningful cockpit position again in Germany. Maybe some gulf airline will have mercy with those insane people.


Down there they would get incarcernated as soon as they would engage in ANY union activities.


Too true, and Etihad will probably get their hands on that blacklist as well. Those pilots are really screwing with their families future in a big way. Absolutely incredible.

PanHAM wrote:
@ seahawk - the wages are paid from the unemployment insurance, which would have helped with or without the loan. They pay for three months and the coffers of that insurance are overflowing, no Problem to pay out.
The loan is tfor keeping AB flying and protectig the AOC until an Investor is found.


The German unemployment insurance is sitting on aprox. 15 billion euros of reserves by now, so overflowing might even be putting it mildly. No problem at all to pay AB salaries for a bit. Meanwhile, even with this support AB is burning through ridiculous amounts of cash every day (which makes me think that no effort to maintain AB as a single entity will work). This wild strike will have doubled the cash burn on tuesday and wednesday. Money is already tightly matched to fit the sales deadline. This is not making things easier. If this keeps going, Air Berlin might have to cease operations next week.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:37 am

AB has already called forward about 24 Million of that loan, one can assume that most of it is spent. When bad comes to worse, AB pays the pilots (and only the pilots) the difference between the maximum the insurance pays and their normal monthly gross pay.. That's when you have the key to the Company.........
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Air Berlin pilots now on sick leave strike

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:15 am

PanHAM wrote:
@ seahawk - the wages are paid from the unemployment insurance, which would have helped with or without the loan. They pay for three months and the coffers of that insurance are overflowing, no Problem to pay out.
The loan is tfor keeping AB flying and protectig the AOC until an Investor is found.


That is not what Kebekus Said.

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