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SR380
Posts: 515
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:44 pm

AleksW wrote:
There are some rumors in Russian forums regarding IL-96-400M - an updated and stretched IL-96-300. But it's too early to say anything at this moment. Who knows? MS-21 (mid range) is performing now it's test flights and IL-114 is also being considered for mass productions.

As for the reasons why they don't build anything big since IL-96-300, I would say one of the primary reasons is dissolution of USSR and subsequent shrink in aviation industrial sector. It's been 25 years since then, but they had total chaos in aviation industry in the 90-s.


Is the Il-96-400 just a rumor? As far as I know it's well under way with first flight expected in 2019. Two Russian airlines, including Rossiya said to be interested. It's supposed to limit Russian dependency on foreign aircraft manufacturers (something important considering the actual tension between Russia and the US and EU). There is plenty of article around.
 
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atypical
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:50 am

The Soviet Union was always a very capable plane maker however they tended to build commercial air transport from a military view. Their airliners tended to be civilian versions of military models or hopeful military models. The aircraft they developed were generally solid, too solid in many cases. They had a lot of beefy frames but that added to the weight considerably and they tended not to compete well on terms of efficiency. In the mid 70s even Aeroflot was interested in getting L1011s. The proposal was for the purchase of 30 and the license to make 100. Carter made an issue of human rights and squashed the deal. The Soviets also wanted to license the RB211 from Rolls but I don't think the English were going to allow it. In the end the L1011 deal fell through and spurred the Soviets to make the IL-86 and then the IL-96. They settled of 4 engine designs on both of those since they did not have sufficiently powerful enough engines for 3 or 2 holers.

The Tu-204/214/234 wasn't a bad plane except for the bankruptcy virus it carried.
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:14 am

SR380 wrote:
AleksW wrote:
There are some rumors in Russian forums regarding IL-96-400M - an updated and stretched IL-96-300. But it's too early to say anything at this moment. Who knows? MS-21 (mid range) is performing now it's test flights and IL-114 is also being considered for mass productions.

As for the reasons why they don't build anything big since IL-96-300, I would say one of the primary reasons is dissolution of USSR and subsequent shrink in aviation industrial sector. It's been 25 years since then, but they had total chaos in aviation industry in the 90-s.


Is the Il-96-400 just a rumor? As far as I know it's well under way with first flight expected in 2019. Two Russian airlines, including Rossiya said to be interested. It's supposed to limit Russian dependency on foreign aircraft manufacturers (something important considering the actual tension between Russia and the US and EU). There is plenty of article around.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.ainonlin ... hape%3famp

We'll under way? A few PowerPoints doesn't make a schedule. To fly in 2018, the engine would have to already be in ground test.

The schedule has too many issues to believe any engineers capable of doing the upgrade were involved.

Lightsaber

PS, the link has terms of the project are designed. Not the details! Ugh, details are the hard work! Some administrator says fly in two years... Ugh! Really? If it is existing engines and existing avionics, sure. A concept? Sigh...
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
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SR380
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:06 am

As per the article you posted EIS is schedule for 2019. While the engine seems to be the PA-90A1 that has already won certification. I am no engineer but it seems doable considering they are working on upgrading something that is already flying (RA-96104).
 
AleksW
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:13 am

SR380 wrote:
AleksW wrote:
There are some rumors in Russian forums regarding IL-96-400M - an updated and stretched IL-96-300. But it's too early to say anything at this moment. Who knows? MS-21 (mid range) is performing now it's test flights and IL-114 is also being considered for mass productions.

As for the reasons why they don't build anything big since IL-96-300, I would say one of the primary reasons is dissolution of USSR and subsequent shrink in aviation industrial sector. It's been 25 years since then, but they had total chaos in aviation industry in the 90-s.


Is the Il-96-400 just a rumor? As far as I know it's well under way with first flight expected in 2019. Two Russian airlines, including Rossiya said to be interested. It's supposed to limit Russian dependency on foreign aircraft manufacturers (something important considering the actual tension between Russia and the US and EU). There is plenty of article around.


I would say it's more than a rumour, but I haven't seen any major updates or concrete details yet: range, weights etc. At least forum thread about Il-96 is pretty quiet at the moment.

It's unclear what engines they going to use, what kind of avionics upgrade is planned etc. Il-96-300 had 3 pilot cockpit for example, so in order to modernize it there are lots of changes that needs to be made. With regards to the engines: PD-14 is still performing flight tests, so perhaps PS-90A2 will also be considered. Another option is PD-18 (PD-14 with around 180 KN of thrust) and I personally think this is the best option for this plane.

Overall, it feels like IL-114 will be released first, followed by his big brother. I agree that with all these sanctions and overall political situation this project might materialize.
 
SCAT15F
Posts: 662
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:34 am

Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:01 am

rbavfan wrote:
solomanflyer wrote:
As far as in the aviation industry, there are only 2 large passenger planes - A380 & B747 - 8 ,,, but the largest plane is the Russian Made Antonov An-225 (Cargo),,

If russian can make the largest A/c why can't they make the passenger plane?


An-225 is Ukrainian, not Russian.


Actually, it is Russian. Antonov is a Russian company that was moved to the Ukraine SSR about 10 years after it was formed. The designer of the An-225, the An-124 and An-22 among many other aircraft was Oleg Antonov, a Russian.
 
AleksW
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:30 pm

atypical wrote:
The Soviet Union was always a very capable plane maker however they tended to build commercial air transport from a military view. Their airliners tended to be civilian versions of military models or hopeful military models. The aircraft they developed were generally solid, too solid in many cases. They had a lot of beefy frames but that added to the weight considerably and they tended not to compete well on terms of efficiency. In the mid 70s even Aeroflot was interested in getting L1011s. The proposal was for the purchase of 30 and the license to make 100. Carter made an issue of human rights and squashed the deal. The Soviets also wanted to license the RB211 from Rolls but I don't think the English were going to allow it. In the end the L1011 deal fell through and spurred the Soviets to make the IL-86 and then the IL-96. They settled of 4 engine designs on both of those since they did not have sufficiently powerful enough engines for 3 or 2 holers.

The Tu-204/214/234 wasn't a bad plane except for the bankruptcy virus it carried.


I agree. Early Tupolevs (before TU-154) like TU-104, TU-114 and others had military roots. AN-10 was a passenger version of AN-12 and I heard even AN-22 was considered as a passenger plane at some point. From the other hand ILyushin design bureau always had clear distinction between passenger and military / transport aircrafts. IL-18, IL-62, IL-96 were designed as purely civil planes.

From the engines point of view, back in the 90-s there was a plan to start IL-96M with PW engines and Rockwell avionics. It never went beyond 1 flying prototype though. Reasons are unknown to me, but I would say politics was part of it too.
 
solomanflyer
Topic Author
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:28 am

Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:30 pm

SCAT15F wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
solomanflyer wrote:
As far as in the aviation industry, there are only 2 large passenger planes - A380 & B747 - 8 ,,, but the largest plane is the Russian Made Antonov An-225 (Cargo),,

If russian can make the largest A/c why can't they make the passenger plane?


An-225 is Ukrainian, not Russian.


Actually, it is Russian. Antonov is a Russian company that was moved to the Ukraine SSR about 10 years after it was formed. The designer of the An-225, the An-124 and An-22 among many other aircraft was Oleg Antonov, a Russian.



Basically the technology is their own, and of course they have to work a lot on that. Still it is competitive with other companies.

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