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SR380
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:44 pm

AleksW wrote:
There are some rumors in Russian forums regarding IL-96-400M - an updated and stretched IL-96-300. But it's too early to say anything at this moment. Who knows? MS-21 (mid range) is performing now it's test flights and IL-114 is also being considered for mass productions.

As for the reasons why they don't build anything big since IL-96-300, I would say one of the primary reasons is dissolution of USSR and subsequent shrink in aviation industrial sector. It's been 25 years since then, but they had total chaos in aviation industry in the 90-s.


Is the Il-96-400 just a rumor? As far as I know it's well under way with first flight expected in 2019. Two Russian airlines, including Rossiya said to be interested. It's supposed to limit Russian dependency on foreign aircraft manufacturers (something important considering the actual tension between Russia and the US and EU). There is plenty of article around.
 
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atypical
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:50 am

The Soviet Union was always a very capable plane maker however they tended to build commercial air transport from a military view. Their airliners tended to be civilian versions of military models or hopeful military models. The aircraft they developed were generally solid, too solid in many cases. They had a lot of beefy frames but that added to the weight considerably and they tended not to compete well on terms of efficiency. In the mid 70s even Aeroflot was interested in getting L1011s. The proposal was for the purchase of 30 and the license to make 100. Carter made an issue of human rights and squashed the deal. The Soviets also wanted to license the RB211 from Rolls but I don't think the English were going to allow it. In the end the L1011 deal fell through and spurred the Soviets to make the IL-86 and then the IL-96. They settled of 4 engine designs on both of those since they did not have sufficiently powerful enough engines for 3 or 2 holers.

The Tu-204/214/234 wasn't a bad plane except for the bankruptcy virus it carried.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:14 am

SR380 wrote:
AleksW wrote:
There are some rumors in Russian forums regarding IL-96-400M - an updated and stretched IL-96-300. But it's too early to say anything at this moment. Who knows? MS-21 (mid range) is performing now it's test flights and IL-114 is also being considered for mass productions.

As for the reasons why they don't build anything big since IL-96-300, I would say one of the primary reasons is dissolution of USSR and subsequent shrink in aviation industrial sector. It's been 25 years since then, but they had total chaos in aviation industry in the 90-s.


Is the Il-96-400 just a rumor? As far as I know it's well under way with first flight expected in 2019. Two Russian airlines, including Rossiya said to be interested. It's supposed to limit Russian dependency on foreign aircraft manufacturers (something important considering the actual tension between Russia and the US and EU). There is plenty of article around.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.ainonlin ... hape%3famp

We'll under way? A few PowerPoints doesn't make a schedule. To fly in 2018, the engine would have to already be in ground test.

The schedule has too many issues to believe any engineers capable of doing the upgrade were involved.

Lightsaber

PS, the link has terms of the project are designed. Not the details! Ugh, details are the hard work! Some administrator says fly in two years... Ugh! Really? If it is existing engines and existing avionics, sure. A concept? Sigh...
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
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SR380
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:06 am

As per the article you posted EIS is schedule for 2019. While the engine seems to be the PA-90A1 that has already won certification. I am no engineer but it seems doable considering they are working on upgrading something that is already flying (RA-96104).
 
AleksW
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:13 am

SR380 wrote:
AleksW wrote:
There are some rumors in Russian forums regarding IL-96-400M - an updated and stretched IL-96-300. But it's too early to say anything at this moment. Who knows? MS-21 (mid range) is performing now it's test flights and IL-114 is also being considered for mass productions.

As for the reasons why they don't build anything big since IL-96-300, I would say one of the primary reasons is dissolution of USSR and subsequent shrink in aviation industrial sector. It's been 25 years since then, but they had total chaos in aviation industry in the 90-s.


Is the Il-96-400 just a rumor? As far as I know it's well under way with first flight expected in 2019. Two Russian airlines, including Rossiya said to be interested. It's supposed to limit Russian dependency on foreign aircraft manufacturers (something important considering the actual tension between Russia and the US and EU). There is plenty of article around.


I would say it's more than a rumour, but I haven't seen any major updates or concrete details yet: range, weights etc. At least forum thread about Il-96 is pretty quiet at the moment.

It's unclear what engines they going to use, what kind of avionics upgrade is planned etc. Il-96-300 had 3 pilot cockpit for example, so in order to modernize it there are lots of changes that needs to be made. With regards to the engines: PD-14 is still performing flight tests, so perhaps PS-90A2 will also be considered. Another option is PD-18 (PD-14 with around 180 KN of thrust) and I personally think this is the best option for this plane.

Overall, it feels like IL-114 will be released first, followed by his big brother. I agree that with all these sanctions and overall political situation this project might materialize.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:01 am

rbavfan wrote:
solomanflyer wrote:
As far as in the aviation industry, there are only 2 large passenger planes - A380 & B747 - 8 ,,, but the largest plane is the Russian Made Antonov An-225 (Cargo),,

If russian can make the largest A/c why can't they make the passenger plane?


An-225 is Ukrainian, not Russian.


Actually, it is Russian. Antonov is a Russian company that was moved to the Ukraine SSR about 10 years after it was formed. The designer of the An-225, the An-124 and An-22 among many other aircraft was Oleg Antonov, a Russian.
 
AleksW
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:30 pm

atypical wrote:
The Soviet Union was always a very capable plane maker however they tended to build commercial air transport from a military view. Their airliners tended to be civilian versions of military models or hopeful military models. The aircraft they developed were generally solid, too solid in many cases. They had a lot of beefy frames but that added to the weight considerably and they tended not to compete well on terms of efficiency. In the mid 70s even Aeroflot was interested in getting L1011s. The proposal was for the purchase of 30 and the license to make 100. Carter made an issue of human rights and squashed the deal. The Soviets also wanted to license the RB211 from Rolls but I don't think the English were going to allow it. In the end the L1011 deal fell through and spurred the Soviets to make the IL-86 and then the IL-96. They settled of 4 engine designs on both of those since they did not have sufficiently powerful enough engines for 3 or 2 holers.

The Tu-204/214/234 wasn't a bad plane except for the bankruptcy virus it carried.


I agree. Early Tupolevs (before TU-154) like TU-104, TU-114 and others had military roots. AN-10 was a passenger version of AN-12 and I heard even AN-22 was considered as a passenger plane at some point. From the other hand ILyushin design bureau always had clear distinction between passenger and military / transport aircrafts. IL-18, IL-62, IL-96 were designed as purely civil planes.

From the engines point of view, back in the 90-s there was a plan to start IL-96M with PW engines and Rockwell avionics. It never went beyond 1 flying prototype though. Reasons are unknown to me, but I would say politics was part of it too.
 
solomanflyer
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:30 pm

SCAT15F wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
solomanflyer wrote:
As far as in the aviation industry, there are only 2 large passenger planes - A380 & B747 - 8 ,,, but the largest plane is the Russian Made Antonov An-225 (Cargo),,

If russian can make the largest A/c why can't they make the passenger plane?


An-225 is Ukrainian, not Russian.


Actually, it is Russian. Antonov is a Russian company that was moved to the Ukraine SSR about 10 years after it was formed. The designer of the An-225, the An-124 and An-22 among many other aircraft was Oleg Antonov, a Russian.



Basically the technology is their own, and of course they have to work a lot on that. Still it is competitive with other companies.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:31 am

Please stay on topic. Political discussions belong in Non Av.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Scorpius
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:33 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Please stay on topic. Political discussions belong in Non Av.

✈️ atcsundevil

Oh, sorry about that. I just decided to calmly explain my point of view, specifically stating that not going to engage in political debate. If to speak about the topic of - An-225 was created for special tasks, and in cooperation with many enterprises of the USSR. With the collapse of the USSR, the technological chain is broken, and now the recovery of production forces of Ukraine is impossible. Russia has long discussed the restoration of production of An-124, on the basis of which and created the An-225, but now those plans are out of date announced, as work began on the creation of advanced aircraft with increased carrying capacity on the basis of sovetskih development on the project of creation of the IL-106. The creation of a large aircraft requires a large financial investment, and in Russia, the budget is much smaller than that of the USA. For this reason, in the next 20 years the biggest aircraft in Russia will remain to operate the IL-96, An-124, An-22.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:37 pm

AleksW wrote:
atypical wrote:
The Soviet Union was always a very capable plane maker however they tended to build commercial air transport from a military view. Their airliners tended to be civilian versions of military models or hopeful military models. The aircraft they developed were generally solid, too solid in many cases. They had a lot of beefy frames but that added to the weight considerably and they tended not to compete well on terms of efficiency. In the mid 70s even Aeroflot was interested in getting L1011s. The proposal was for the purchase of 30 and the license to make 100. Carter made an issue of human rights and squashed the deal. The Soviets also wanted to license the RB211 from Rolls but I don't think the English were going to allow it. In the end the L1011 deal fell through and spurred the Soviets to make the IL-86 and then the IL-96. They settled of 4 engine designs on both of those since they did not have sufficiently powerful enough engines for 3 or 2 holers.

The Tu-204/214/234 wasn't a bad plane except for the bankruptcy virus it carried.


I agree. Early Tupolevs (before TU-154) like TU-104, TU-114 and others had military roots. AN-10 was a passenger version of AN-12 and I heard even AN-22 was considered as a passenger plane at some point. From the other hand ILyushin design bureau always had clear distinction between passenger and military / transport aircrafts. IL-18, IL-62, IL-96 were designed as purely civil planes.

From the engines point of view, back in the 90-s there was a plan to start IL-96M with PW engines and Rockwell avionics. It never went beyond 1 flying prototype though. Reasons are unknown to me, but I would say politics was part of it too.


On the basis of the IL-96M was subsequently developed the IL-96-400. Now on the basis of IL-96-400 plan to create IL-96-400M, which will be a deep modernization.
 
starrion
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:15 pm

lightsaber wrote:
When Russia had money, they also had domestic customs (travel restrictions). How can you generate high demand when customers are prohibited from traveling unless you were an elite?

The AN-124/225 were military planes.

Funding did go away, but Russian planes were never competitive with the west. They didn't care about quick turn times as internal customs ensured 5+ hour turn times. The designed aircraft utilization was horrid. Will the MC-21 do better? Yes.

As to the 929... That is tough. You cannot have a 2nd string widebody. The plane will have to compete in a world with the 787 PIP'd, A350 PIP'd, and 777X. With the current global surplus of widebody production, it will have to be very good or the airlines forced to buy it will be at a disadvantage.

Look at the SU-100. While good now, the first few delivered examples were in reality the final prototypes.
Also look at the ARJ-21, only two delivered in how long?


And the 929 design is aging everyday. When it hits the open market was does the airline executive do? Take a gamble on the first widebody aircraft built by COMAC or pick up some 777-300ERs that Emirates just returned that spent 12 years doing 99%+ dispatch rates at a fraction of new cost.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
F27500
Posts: 177
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:41 pm

... Because who would buy them other than Russia? Most people don't trust Russian made planes. it would fail.
 
WIederling
Posts: 4374
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:08 am

F27500 wrote:
... Because who would buy them other than Russia? Most people don't trust Russian made planes. it would fail.


Do you have some corroborative statistics on that? ( "Most people don't trust Russian made planes." )
Murphy is an optimist
 
thesaladdays
Posts: 13
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:57 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
ia1976 wrote:
jakubz wrote:
It's not like Eastern European airlines had much of a chance to buy western aircraft while the Soviet Union was exerting influence.


1) Soviet Union offered very attractive payment option: barter operations. Instead of spending US dollars or european currencies, national governments (airlines) of Eastern Europe (and countries in other parts of the world) was able "to pay" for the planes in natural form - with consumer goods or agricultural produce.

2) Another example to compliment the case of TAROM: Jat Airways (Yugoslav Airlines) of Yugoslavia - almost entire fleet of the airline was from "western" manufacturers.

Eastern European airlines (in fact governments) HAD chances, if they really wanted.

You're not a student of history, are you?

In the Eastern Bloc, the Soviet Ambassadors exerted as much, if not more, power than the nations' presidents, who themselves had strong ties to Moscow. If they had tried to buy Western planes for their state-run airlines, they would need to give a very good reason to Mr. Stalin/Khrushchev/Brezhnev (less so in the Gorbachev years), ere they find Red Army tanks in their streets.
Yugoslavia, which broke with the USSR in 1948, had far better ties to the West.

Note that when Gorbachev came to power, this changed, and so we see Eastern Bloc airlines order from A and B in the late 80's onwards.


It wasn't entirely unheard of, after all LOT operated the DC-3, CV-240 and Vickers Viscount up through the end of the 1960s. (Not to mention the pre-war fleet, which was entirely Western and partly domestic). It was really only the 70s and 80s where the fleet was entirely soviet-built.

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