solomanflyer
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Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:34 am

As far as in the aviation industry, there are only 2 large passenger planes - A380 & B747 - 8 ,,, but the largest plane is the Russian Made Antonov An-225 (Cargo),,

If russian can make the largest A/c why can't they make the passenger plane?
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited grammar in title
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Why don't russia make larger planes any more

Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:39 am

Well technically, Antonov isn't Russian, but Ukraine. The plane was made in the USSR though.

The Russians don't have the need for such a plane at the moment. They could if they wanted to. Passenger a/c is another matter. They are creeping up there with the MC-21. At the moment there isn't much need for a Russian wide body, not too much support and efficiency is not quite there yet with their western counterparts, so what would their unique selling points be. The Russian domestic market is too small.

As for the A380 and B748i, they aren't flying off the shelves as it is, so why would you think there is a need for a 3rd one?

As for the AN225, there were rumours that the plane would be built in China, don't think it ever came off the ground though, would be great to see another one or ten built.
Last edited by Dutchy on Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Why don't russia make larger planes any more

Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:40 am

It's all 'bout demand, mate.
The Russian airlines are all buying from Boeing and Airbus. Look at Aeroflot and the 777. It's not that there's that much demand in the market, or that the Antonovs were cheap to fly.
And beside, Antonov's from Ukraine.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
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BreninTW
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Re: Why don't russia make larger planes any more

Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:51 am

The AN-225 was developed for a quasi-military purpose at a time when money was no hindrance and efficiency and dispatch reliability hardly featured in the requirement. It is capable of moving very large items, but it is not at all efficient at doing it (especially with six engines). From what I understand, it requires extensive maintenance after each mission, and it has a crew of ... 10?

The name of the game in commercial aviation is efficiency. The CIS aerospace companies have not had the funds to invest in developing engines that are anywhere near as efficient as the western engines -- meaning that they can't compete on an equal footing with the two big players in the market.

CIS manufacturers could build aircraft to compete with the A380 and 747-8i in terms of size, but they would have to rely on Western engines to get the efficiency level up to a point where airlines would even consider buying them. Then they would have to set up a robust and stable parts and service infrastructure to be able to support a global fleet of VLAs. All of this would be prohibitively expensive.

Then consider how small the market for a comparable VLA would be -- the VLA market has essentially been killed off by the likes of the A350-1000 and the 777-8/-9. No ways are GE and RR going to cannibalize their VLA partnerships with Boeing and Airbus to gamble on a completely unknown competitor very large twin. Pratt doesn't even feature in discussions at this end of the market, and won't for years to come.

Could Antonov or Illyusin build a VLA passenger aircraft -- sure. Would they do it? It would be business suicide, pure and simple. Airbus and Boeing have the capacity to price a newcomer out of the market if needed, but they have the service and support infrastructures to make it all but impossible for a newcomer to attract buyers anyway.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:01 am

Not a VLA but they're getting there. Not enough demand for another VLA right now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C929

https://aviationvoice.com/russian-chine ... 61006/amp/

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=563103
 
WIederling
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Re: Why don't russia make larger planes any more

Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:51 am

BreninTW wrote:
The AN-225 was developed for a quasi-military purpose at a time when money was no hindrance and efficiency and dispatch reliability hardly featured in the requirement.


AN225 was a single purpose ( Transporting the Buran Shuttle ) design based on the AN124.
.. and compare to: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Carrier_Aircraft

3 frames planned. One finished. One "Kitplane" sitting around.

The rest is a 757 like scenario : You have it, You use it :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
B777LRF
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:53 am

In general terms, Russian commercial aviation has not been able to produce a product that appeals to users outside of the realm. They are too heavy, too thirsty, support is severely lacking and people just don't like the idea of flying a Russian aircraft.

So whilst there's techincally nothing stopping them from producing an A380-like aircraft, they'll find themselves without any customers for it.
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VSMUT
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:20 am

They make the Il-96, and as mentioned above, the C929 is being developed in cooperation with China.

B777LRF wrote:
In general terms, Russian commercial aviation has not been able to produce a product that appeals to users outside of the realm. They are too heavy, too thirsty, support is severely lacking...


Mostly because they were simply caught in the collapse of the Soviet Union. Funding went away, and they were unable to develop competitive alternatives, instead having to continue squeezing life out of 1960s designs. The Superjet has broken this trend, and it will be interesting to see if the MC-21 can do so as well.

B777LRF wrote:
...and people just don't like the idea of flying a Russian aircraft.


Disagree. Outside of the US, I have never heard of people unwilling to fly because of a particular aircraft. Nobody is holding back from flying with the Superjet, and Aeroflot didn't have any problems filling their Tu-154s and Il-96s vs A320s and A330s. IMHO, passengers abstain more from flying with CRJs than they did with Russian/Soviet planes.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:22 am

solomanflyer wrote:
As far as in the aviation industry, there are only 2 large passenger planes - A380 & B747 - 8 ,,, but the largest plane is the Russian Made Antonov An-225 (Cargo),,

If russian can make the largest A/c why can't they make the passenger plane?


An-225 is Ukrainian, not Russian.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:39 am

When Russia had money, they also had domestic customs (travel restrictions). How can you generate high demand when customers are prohibited from traveling unless you were an elite?

The AN-124/225 were military planes.

Funding did go away, but Russian planes were never competitive with the west. They didn't care about quick turn times as internal customs ensured 5+ hour turn times. The designed aircraft utilization was horrid. Will the MC-21 do better? Yes.

As to the 929... That is tough. You cannot have a 2nd string widebody. The plane will have to compete in a world with the 787 PIP'd, A350 PIP'd, and 777X. With the current global surplus of widebody production, it will have to be very good or the airlines forced to buy it will be at a disadvantage.

Look at the SU-100. While good now, the first few delivered examples were in reality the final prototypes.
Also look at the ARJ-21, only two delivered in how long?
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:12 am

lightsaber wrote:
Funding did go away, but Russian planes were never competitive with the west.


But you didn't see Western airliners in most of the east either until the time when the USSR was well on its way to collapse, and couldn't offer Malev, Interflug and LOT anything newer than Il-62s.

lightsaber wrote:
They didn't care about quick turn times as internal customs ensured 5+ hour turn times. The designed aircraft utilization was horrid.


False reasoning. Neither did western manufacturers and airlines until the LCCs came along.

lightsaber wrote:
As to the 929... That is tough. You cannot have a 2nd string widebody. The plane will have to compete in a world with the 787 PIP'd, A350 PIP'd, and 777X. With the current global surplus of widebody production, it will have to be very good or the airlines forced to buy it will be at a disadvantage.


Disagree, especially on the "cannot" part. There isn't any law that says that they can't, and the global aviation market has grown by magnitudes since there was last a 2nd string widebody available. If we just assume that they will only sell to Chinese and Russian airlines, that's a market for 1000 planes just there, plenty to get it on to a C929 PIP that will make it just as competitive. Remember, the state can control what the airlines buy in those countries, regardless of how unfair A or B fans find it. Then you have massively expanding markets in places like Africa and Asia who wouldn't mind ordering a Sino-Russian aircraft.
The 787s composite technology (and the MC-21s cold cured composite technology) was also developed in Russia, so they have an advantage there. Engine-wise, nothing will prevent them from using the latest engine from GE or RR, no different from the 787 or A350.
 
c933103
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:06 pm

I think it was said that there were plan to build a double decker version of IL96 called IL196... but since the IL96 is at its current stage, it's not happening....
As for C929, that's smaller than IL96-400 I think.
 
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pylon101
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:14 pm

I have doubts that the project with COMAC will go well.
We Russians need a 10,000 km range. It covers all domestic and international route needs.
Chinese want an aircraft with a much longer range.
However, these are going to be two different airplanes.
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Slash787
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:19 pm

Well I am waiting for the C929
 
gzm
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Re: Why don't russia make larger planes any more

Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:21 pm

BreninTW wrote:
The AN-225 was developed for a quasi-military purpose at a time when money was no hindrance and efficiency and dispatch reliability hardly featured in the requirement. It is capable of moving very large items, but it is not at all efficient at doing it (especially with six engines). From what I understand, it requires extensive maintenance after each mission.
The name of the game in commercial aviation is efficiency. The CIS aerospace companies have not had the funds to invest in developing engines that are anywhere near as efficient as the western engines.
CIS manufacturers could build aircraft to compete with the A380 and 747-8i in terms of size, but they would have to rely on Western engines to get the efficiency level anyway.

Exactly. I read somewhere thirty years ago that the reason why the Russians have never built their own version of a jumbo jet is because they lack the technology to build big engines and vice-versa, the reason why jumbo jets could be built, is because such technology existed in the West....for example the Ilyushin 86,the equivalent to the A300,needed four engines, can you imagine a 747 with eight?
 
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OA940
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:09 pm

Because nobody will buy it. The A330/neo/A350/777/777X/787 perfectly cover airlines' widebody demands. And Russia is just starting to appear as a major player in the industry with the SSJ and MC-21.
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neutrino
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Re: Why don't russia make larger planes any more

Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:22 pm

gzm wrote:
can you imagine a 747 with eight?

Didn't Boeing already (successfully) built a smaller-than-747 jetplane with eight engines? :duck:
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bob75013
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:27 pm

VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

lightsaber wrote:
They didn't care about quick turn times as internal customs ensured 5+ hour turn times. The designed aircraft utilization was horrid.


False reasoning. Neither did western manufacturers and airlines until the LCCs came along.



Well WN started forcing US airlines to start worrying about quick turns about 44 years ago - arrive at gate, unload, load and push the gate in 20 minutes.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:43 pm

rbavfan wrote:

An-225 is Ukrainian, not Russian.


It's really neither, it's a product of the USSR.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Look at the SU-100. While good now, the first few delivered examples were in reality the final prototypes.


You could say the same about the first 787's and the Pratt geared turbofan.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why don't russia make larger planes any more

Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:21 pm

BreninTW wrote:
Then they would have to set up a robust and stable parts and service infrastructure to be able to support a global fleet...


Similarly, that lack of confidence in ability to service and support $ Billions of assets for their ~ three decade service life is why Bombardier has to give away the C-Series in spite of the aircraft's technical prowess. Aircraft manufacture is the exemplar for the deep investment/very long cycle business.
 
aviatorcraig
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Re: Why don't russia make larger planes any more

Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:50 pm

neutrino wrote:
gzm wrote:
can you imagine a 747 with eight?

Didn't Boeing already (successfully) built a smaller-than-747 jetplane with eight engines? :duck:


Yes they did. What's its CASM like? :duck:
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Freshside3
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:13 pm

If Russia was smart enough, they would come up with a replacement for the 757, instead of pursuing the wide-body market. The 737-900 is horrible, for its weight and balance issue. And the A321, though better than the 739, isn't nearly as good.
 
luckyone
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:58 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Engine-wise, nothing will prevent them from using the latest engine from GE or RR, no different from the 787 or A350.

It may not be that simple. Both the UK and US governments have a history of prohibiting transfers of technology to Soviet and Russian manufacturers, including post-Soviet collapse. Now, both the Chinese and Russian airlines have been ordering aircraft with these engines in spades, so it is not inconceivable that reverse engineering may take place.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:05 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Well WN started forcing US airlines to start worrying about quick turns about 44 years ago - arrive at gate, unload, load and push the gate in 20 minutes.


And in the rest of the world, it didn't start happening until 20 years ago. The Tu-134, Tu-154 and Il-62 also both predate WN. When the natural replacement circle came around in the mid-80s the USSR couldn't afford it, and so they had to rely on outdated designs until the 2000s.


Freshside3 wrote:
If Russia was smart enough, they would come up with a replacement for the 757, instead of pursuing the wide-body market.


That's more or less what the biggest MC-21 and potentially the C929 are planned to be.

gzm wrote:
Exactly. I read somewhere thirty years ago that the reason why the Russians have never built their own version of a jumbo jet is because they lack the technology to build big engines and vice-versa, the reason why jumbo jets could be built, is because such technology existed in the West....for example the Ilyushin 86,the equivalent to the A300,needed four engines, can you imagine a 747 with eight?


The An-124 is 747 sized and only powered by 4x engines. It did come 15 years later though. I would imagine that if they had the technology, the Il-86 might have looked a bit different.

There were, IMHO, more reasons why they didn't do a 747 sized plane. They just didn't have the need for a 747 sized airliner. The aviation market in the USSR was much smaller, and they had more need for aircraft that could handle rough, unprepared airstrips. Direct comparisons can't really be made for that reason. Even when they did have the technology (see the An-124) they never went for it, and no 747s were imported either.
 
KrustyTheKlown
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:19 pm

Soviet manufacturers never had success selling civil aircraft outside the soviet sphere of influence.

Airlines are also very risk adverse, few airlines will be willing to buy Russian planes even if they are significantly cheaper if training and maintenance are likely to be a headache, part availability is going to depend on the usual Russian geo-political games and there are less risky alternatives with better performance.

Even modern planes suffer from this perception as the SSJ-100 crash surely cost them many orders.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:47 pm

bob75013 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:



False reasoning. Neither did western manufacturers and airlines until the LCCs came along.



Well WN started forcing US airlines to start worrying about quick turns about 44 years ago - arrive at gate, unload, load and push the gate in 20 minutes.

How quick WN turns planes around has no effect on the other airlines. They're just utilizing their assets better.
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F27500
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:28 pm

.. Because really outside Russia, who would buy them ?

Traditionally Russian planes are thought of the world over as inferior and poorly put together. That's why they really haven't sold well outside Russia (countries "influenced" by Russia).

Airlines (and countries) that are able to make a choice will go with Boeing, Airbus or Embraer if they can. Russian planes would be a last resort to most.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:00 am

I've wondered for years if a redo of the AN-225 that used 4 GE-90 engines instead of the 6 that it currently uses would be a compelling product for any purpose.
 
solomanflyer
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:42 am

LightningZ71 wrote:
I've wondered for years if a redo of the AN-225 that used 4 GE-90 engines instead of the 6 that it currently uses would be a compelling product for any purpose.



If i am not wrong,, For your concern - that is why they have AN-124 with 4 engines..
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:52 am

solomanflyer wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
I've wondered for years if a redo of the AN-225 that used 4 GE-90 engines instead of the 6 that it currently uses would be a compelling product for any purpose.



If i am not wrong,, For your concern - that is why they have AN-124 with 4 engines..

The An-124 is smaller, although quads as a whole are uneconomical. The only reason people use An-225s, An-124s, and even B748Fs is if they need something that won't fit through the door of a 777F. That's a pretty small market, y'know?
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
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csturdiv
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:56 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
solomanflyer wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
I've wondered for years if a redo of the AN-225 that used 4 GE-90 engines instead of the 6 that it currently uses would be a compelling product for any purpose.



If i am not wrong,, For your concern - that is why they have AN-124 with 4 engines..

The An-124 is smaller, although quads as a whole are uneconomical. The only reason people use An-225s, An-124s, and even B748Fs is if they need something that won't fit through the door of a 777F. That's a pretty small market, y'know?


Outside of using them to transport military hardware and satellites, In my opinion, the only reason is that there is a need to get cargo from point A to point B as soon as possible and cannot wait for it to be shipped on a cargo ship.
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YIMBY
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Re: Why don't russia make larger planes any more

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:06 am

BreninTW wrote:
Airbus and Boeing have the capacity to price a newcomer out of the market if needed, but they have the service and support infrastructures to make it all but impossible for a newcomer to attract buyers anyway.


Outpricing a newcomer from the market is prohibited by EU laws, at least in principle, though it may not apply to this case. US may be opposite, and in the rest of the world they may be more free to compete how they want.
 
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SR380
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:44 am

Sukhoi actually worked on a double decker called the KR-860. A scale model was shown at the 2000 Paris air show:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_KR-860
 
solomanflyer
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:17 am

SR380 wrote:
Sukhoi actually worked on a double decker called the KR-860. A scale model was shown at the 2000 Paris air show:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_KR-860



wow, that's pretty cool..,, in future airlines might move to those for cost cutting
 
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SR380
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:43 am

solomanflyer wrote:
SR380 wrote:
Sukhoi actually worked on a double decker called the KR-860. A scale model was shown at the 2000 Paris air show:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_KR-860



wow, that's pretty cool..,, in future airlines might move to those for cost cutting


That's what we said about the A380. And it still seems very expensive to run. Maybe in 10-15 years.
 
JCTJennings
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:43 am

In the days of the USSR, the Soviets, for political reasons, had to be seen to have comparable airliners to the west in all categories. When the 747 came along they were hamstrung by lack of suitable engine technology, so the best that they could come up with was the Il-86. No airline with access to Western types would touch a Soviet era design. One of the few examples of an airline with experience of Western types flying a Soviet type was when Egypt was having trouble with the US and Egyptair "bought" some Tu-154s. The airline was not impressed that it had to carry permanent ballast for cg reasons and after a fatal training accident they were quickly sent back to the USSR. Today, the Russians have neither the money, the resources or the need to develop aircraft in all categories. What money and resources they have is, from their point of view, better spent on military types.
 
jakubz
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:08 pm

VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Funding did go away, but Russian planes were never competitive with the west.


But you didn't see Western airliners in most of the east either until the time when the USSR was well on its way to collapse, and couldn't offer Malev, Interflug and LOT anything newer than Il-62s.




It's not like Eastern European airlines had a chance to buy western aircraft...
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LightningZ71
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm

While I realize that there are other large transports, my thoughts behind the reworked 225 with GE-90s were two fold. One was that the four GE-90s would represent a total possible thrust of north of 360K lbs, which is greater than the ~310K lbs provided by the existing 6 Progress engines. While I am well aware that that is quite excessive, it allows a significant de-rating that can enhance the on-wing life of those engines and potentially reduce fuel burn. It also reduces the total engine maintenance load from 6 to 4. That's got to offer an improvement in operational costs. It also won't hurt that the GE-90 is in regular use all over the world and has a significant support infrastructure available to it. With the high wing design, there should be ample ground clearance. The AN-225 is not intended for usage in rough and unprepared airfields, so FOD from debris ingestion should be a minimal concern. The one major problem that I can think of is that the two GE90s will weigh about 8000 lbs more than the three progress turbofans on each wing. That's a non-trivial amount of extra weight.

I realize that this entire exercise is impractical, it is just something that I was thinking about.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:17 pm

jakubz wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Funding did go away, but Russian planes were never competitive with the west.


But you didn't see Western airliners in most of the east either until the time when the USSR was well on its way to collapse, and couldn't offer Malev, Interflug and LOT anything newer than Il-62s.




It's not like Eastern European airlines had a chance to buy western aircraft...


They did actually. Interflug ordered A310s, Lot ordered 767s and Malev ordered 737-200s and 767s, not to mention Tarom who operated BAC 1-11s and 707s.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:36 pm

VSMUT wrote:
jakubz wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

But you didn't see Western airliners in most of the east either until the time when the USSR was well on its way to collapse, and couldn't offer Malev, Interflug and LOT anything newer than Il-62s.




It's not like Eastern European airlines had a chance to buy western aircraft...


They did actually. Interflug ordered A310s, Lot ordered 767s and Malev ordered 737-200s and 767s, not to mention Tarom who operated BAC 1-11s and 707s.


But apart from Tarom, those aircraft were introduced in the late 1980s when the communist bloc had started to fall apart.
 
jakubz
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:40 pm

VSMUT wrote:
jakubz wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

But you didn't see Western airliners in most of the east either until the time when the USSR was well on its way to collapse, and couldn't offer Malev, Interflug and LOT anything newer than Il-62s.




It's not like Eastern European airlines had a chance to buy western aircraft...


They did actually. Interflug ordered A310s, Lot ordered 767s and Malev ordered 737-200s and 767s, not to mention Tarom who operated BAC 1-11s and 707s.


Sorry, I should have been a bit more specific.
It's not like Eastern European airlines had much of a chance to buy western aircraft while the Soviet Union was exerting influence.

But regardless, those orders (well, at least the deliveries) came in the late 80's/early 90's when the Soviet Union was collapsing as VSMUT pointed out.

Per Planspotters, LOT got their 1st 767 in 1989.
Interflug got their A310's in 1989 also.
Malev got their 1st 767 in 1992.

I'll concede the Tarom example.
KORD > RJAA > KORD day trip? Why not! The beauty of non-reving.
Yes, I use ICAO codes
Flown: PA-28, PA-38
Passenger on: A319/A320 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, 787-8
Finally got on a 747!

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lightsaber
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:38 pm

VSMUT wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Funding did go away, but Russian planes were never competitive with the west.


But you didn't see Western airliners in most of the east either until the time when the USSR was well on its way to collapse, and couldn't offer Malev, Interflug and LOT anything newer than Il-62s.

lightsaber wrote:
They didn't care about quick turn times as internal customs ensured 5+ hour turn times. The designed aircraft utilization was horrid.


False reasoning. Neither did western manufacturers and airlines until the LCCs came along.

lightsaber wrote:
As to the 929... That is tough. You cannot have a 2nd string widebody. The plane will have to compete in a world with the 787 PIP'd, A350 PIP'd, and 777X. With the current global surplus of widebody production, it will have to be very good or the airlines forced to buy it will be at a disadvantage.


Disagree, especially on the "cannot" part. There isn't any law that says that they can't, and the global aviation market has grown by magnitudes since there was last a 2nd string widebody available. If we just assume that they will only sell to Chinese and Russian airlines, that's a market for 1000 planes just there, plenty to get it on to a C929 PIP that will make it just as competitive. Remember, the state can control what the airlines buy in those countries, regardless of how unfair A or B fans find it. Then you have massively expanding markets in places like Africa and Asia who wouldn't mind ordering a Sino-Russian aircraft.
The 787s composite technology (and the MC-21s cold cured composite technology) was also developed in Russia, so they have an advantage there. Engine-wise, nothing will prevent them from using the latest engine from GE or RR, no different from the 787 or A350.

Western planes sold to the rest of the world.

As to false reasoning on turn times, US airlines expected far quicker turns than multi-hour turns. I have friends, now retired, who helped turn Russian airlines during the cold war. They took hours more to prepare. Look up what it took to adjust the water ballast... Look at what it took to change a gearbox or fuel injector. The Soviet planes didn't have the Western requirements.

And what do you mean by East? Hong Kong, Japan, Korea and Thailand certainly flew Western jets.

It is OK to be a fan, but first identify what can be improved.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ia1976
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:45 pm

jakubz wrote:
It's not like Eastern European airlines had much of a chance to buy western aircraft while the Soviet Union was exerting influence.


1) Soviet Union offered very attractive payment option: barter operations. Instead of spending US dollars or european currencies, national governments (airlines) of Eastern Europe (and countries in other parts of the world) was able "to pay" for the planes in natural form - with consumer goods or agricultural produce.

2) Another example to compliment the case of TAROM: Jat Airways (Yugoslav Airlines) of Yugoslavia - almost entire fleet of the airline was from "western" manufacturers.

Eastern European airlines (in fact governments) HAD chances, if they really wanted.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:20 am

ia1976 wrote:
jakubz wrote:
It's not like Eastern European airlines had much of a chance to buy western aircraft while the Soviet Union was exerting influence.


1) Soviet Union offered very attractive payment option: barter operations. Instead of spending US dollars or european currencies, national governments (airlines) of Eastern Europe (and countries in other parts of the world) was able "to pay" for the planes in natural form - with consumer goods or agricultural produce.

2) Another example to compliment the case of TAROM: Jat Airways (Yugoslav Airlines) of Yugoslavia - almost entire fleet of the airline was from "western" manufacturers.

Eastern European airlines (in fact governments) HAD chances, if they really wanted.

You're not a student of history, are you?

In the Eastern Bloc, the Soviet Ambassadors exerted as much, if not more, power than the nations' presidents, who themselves had strong ties to Moscow. If they had tried to buy Western planes for their state-run airlines, they would need to give a very good reason to Mr. Stalin/Khrushchev/Brezhnev (less so in the Gorbachev years), ere they find Red Army tanks in their streets.
Yugoslavia, which broke with the USSR in 1948, had far better ties to the West.

Note that when Gorbachev came to power, this changed, and so we see Eastern Bloc airlines order from A and B in the late 80's onwards.
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solomanflyer
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:46 am

It seems like, the entire Aviation Industry has strongly effected by politics.. And one part of the world not allowing the other part of the world to improve in Aviation sector ( i mean producing new flying machines).
 
2175301
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:59 am

solomanflyer wrote:
It seems like, the entire Aviation Industry has strongly effected by politics.. And one part of the world not allowing the other part of the world to improve in Aviation sector ( i mean producing new flying machines).


I disagree. No one has stopped Eastern Europe/Russia/China from improving their own aviation sector. Those countries limited it by themselves by not investing into R&D like the "western" countries nor even allowing appropriate innovation.

My wife can tell you exactly why... She has stopped being stunned by various technology developments in the "west" and she says that the very nature of planned economies and communism based economies is what kills them (and she was born in raised in one). In Europe, The USA, and other "Western" countries people and companies are allowed to profit from their innovations and successes. People and companies take chances in the West... Not everyone or everything succeeds... but the successes drive more improvements. The major successes fund a multitude of charities, foundations, museums, etc.

In the "Planned" economies no one or company is allowed to profit from an improvement. Everything belongs to the government. The government decides what ideas are put into production. Massive factories exist instead of several - 100's of smaller companies competing against each other (you should have seen the look on her face and heard the discussion after I took her on a tour of several heat exchanger companies in the US... and how the individual welders controlled the quality of the welds by themselves with no obvious oversight - she had never-ever seen such good quality welds in her home country factories on the production lines). Quality control is controlled by bribing the inspectors. No one is personally responsible for anything. If you have a great idea and it is used... and you ask for extra compensation for your idea... you and often your entire family may vanish in the night (and no one will ever ask where you went or why... or they and their family vanish as well). Thus, there is no reason for anyone to innovate or suggest an improvement in anything. Nor are there any charities funded from inside the country, foundations, private museums, etc.

Yet, the Mathematicians, Engineers, and Scientists are first rate in abilities and principals (my wife has a Manufacturing Engineering Degree from what is recognized by the University of Wisconsin as a 1st rate college and all her courses and credits would transfer in full).

My wife has still not fully adjusted to a capitalistic based society... but, you would literally have to put her in chains and carry/force her back to what she grew up with - or the current "liberalized" forms of these countries today (where bribery still is a normal part of life).

So tell me again how it is that countries limited Russia's (and related) countries aerospace industry...

Have a great day,
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:56 pm

SR380 wrote:
solomanflyer wrote:
SR380 wrote:
Sukhoi actually worked on a double decker called the KR-860. A scale model was shown at the 2000 Paris air show:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_KR-860



wow, that's pretty cool..,, in future airlines might move to those for cost cutting


That's what we said about the A380. And it still seems very expensive to run. Maybe in 10-15 years.


Methinks you missed the low-flying irony passing over your head...
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AleksW
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:57 pm

There are some rumors in Russian forums regarding IL-96-400M - an updated and stretched IL-96-300. But it's too early to say anything at this moment. Who knows? MS-21 (mid range) is performing now it's test flights and IL-114 is also being considered for mass productions.

As for the reasons why they don't build anything big since IL-96-300, I would say one of the primary reasons is dissolution of USSR and subsequent shrink in aviation industrial sector. It's been 25 years since then, but they had total chaos in aviation industry in the 90-s.
 
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SR380
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Re: Why doesn't Russia make larger planes?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:41 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
SR380 wrote:
solomanflyer wrote:


wow, that's pretty cool..,, in future airlines might move to those for cost cutting


That's what we said about the A380. And it still seems very expensive to run. Maybe in 10-15 years.


Methinks you missed the low-flying irony passing over your head...


Me think you might be right ;-)

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