texl1649 wrote:

Thanks. When I look at Delta investor presentations I see nothing really focused on revenue growth, it's all about cost/profit/balance sheet performance. There's very little long term focus on the international network at all, relative to the market overall, which seems problematic.

I'm not seeing the argument here. Delta seems to be the most aggressive and forward-thinking in terms of capturing the international market.

JV with Aeromexico and ATL service to secondary Mexican cities otherwise inaccessible from the Eastern US.
Creation of SEA hub just to compete TPAC.
Brazil service nonstop switching to MCO instead of ATL (leveraging focus city to serve a higher O/D market).
VS JV to increase LHR service.

I'm not sure another airline can touch this in terms of bold steps. It's probably just that this stuff isn't that much of interest to investors.

Any rumors on new AMS flights?

papatango wrote:

Any rumors on new AMS flights?

I would like to add my CONSIDERABLE 2CENTS, and say AMS will be adding in near future:
AUS BNA DEN SAN STL seem like very plausible adds in near future
Remember what value I placed on this.

I'm not sure why Delta hasn't invested in the PDX market. Passenger/capacity growth has increased significantly over the years. I know that it's too close to SEA, but if DL has a daily nonstop flight from PDX to AMS, then I would assume that there would still be a demand for more long-haul routes from PDX, such as CDG. Although, DL recently added a PDX-LHR route, but I'm not sure why it's only 4x weekly summer seasonal? Even with the continued DL growth in SEA, I think that DL should add a PDX-CDG route and operate the PDX-LHR route year-round.

Capn wrote:

papatango wrote:

Any rumors on new AMS flights?

I would like to add my CONSIDERABLE 2CENTS, and say AMS will be adding in near future:
AUS BNA DEN SAN STL seem like very plausible adds in near future
Remember what value I placed on this.

DL recently announced AMS routes from AUS and MCO.

Capn wrote:

papatango wrote:

Any rumors on new AMS flights?

I would like to add my CONSIDERABLE 2CENTS, and say AMS will be adding in near future:
AUS BNA DEN SAN STL seem like very plausible adds in near future
Remember what value I placed on this.

Add in TPA as well. They have said that AMS is a target for them.

jubguy3 wrote:

787fan8 wrote:

Capn wrote:

I would like to add my CONSIDERABLE 2CENTS, and say AMS will be adding in near future:
AUS BNA DEN SAN STL seem like very plausible adds in near future
Remember what value I placed on this.

Add in TPA as well. They have said that AMS is a target for them.

Who said that? Do you have a source?

Here ya go
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/a ... am/2301240

787fan8 wrote:

Capn wrote:

papatango wrote:

Any rumors on new AMS flights?

I would like to add my CONSIDERABLE 2CENTS, and say AMS will be adding in near future:
AUS BNA DEN SAN STL seem like very plausible adds in near future
Remember what value I placed on this.

Add in TPA as well. They have said that AMS is a target for them.

Who said that? Do you have a source?

787fan8 wrote:

Add in TPA as well. They have said that AMS is a target for them.

I can only hope!

AUS AMS is for big event in AUS next spring, but I do believe it will be added permanently soon .Agree on TPA.

jubguy3 wrote:

787fan8 wrote:

Capn wrote:

I would like to add my CONSIDERABLE 2CENTS, and say AMS will be adding in near future:
AUS BNA DEN SAN STL seem like very plausible adds in near future
Remember what value I placed on this.

Add in TPA as well. They have said that AMS is a target for them.

Who said that? Do you have a source?

http://cdn1.pps-publications.com/anna-a ... ue%201.pdf

-Marcel Lekkerkerk,
Director Aviation
Marketing at Amsterdam
Airport Schiphol

“In the Americas,
we see good potential
for the following
unserved routes to be
filled: Las Vegas, Dallas/
Fort Worth, Orlando,
Denver, Tampa and San
Diego. And we think
that Miami, Sao Paulo,
Rio de Janeiro and Lima
can handle additional
capacity too"

TPA’s Director of Air Service Development told me that if TPA gets AMS service, he expects it would be flown by KLM.

Thank you!

Capn wrote:

papatango wrote:

Any rumors on new AMS flights?

I would like to add my CONSIDERABLE 2CENTS, and say AMS will be adding in near future:
AUS BNA DEN SAN STL seem like very plausible adds in near future
Remember what value I placed on this.

I will say, if DL were to launch BNA-AMS, it would be a huge slap in the face to MEM. I doubt DL launches any TATL route (AMS or CDG) out of BNA for at least 2-3 years though.

MSY-CDG is most definitely a possibility, they could run 4rt for Mardi Gras similar to AUS for SXSW to get it started....

Midwestindy wrote:

MSY-CDG is most definitely a possibility, they could run 4rt for Mardi Gras similar to AUS for SXSW to get it started....

I see Norwegian taking a shot at MSY-CDG

FLYKTPA wrote:

TPA’s Director of Air Service Development told me that if TPA gets AMS service, he expects it would be flown by KLM.

Is his name Captain Obvious? Who else would fly it?

IPFreely wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

TPA’s Director of Air Service Development told me that if TPA gets AMS service, he expects it would be flown by KLM.

Is his name Captain Obvious? Who else would fly it?

Delta

IPFreely wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

TPA’s Director of Air Service Development told me that if TPA gets AMS service, he expects it would be flown by KLM.

Is his name Captain Obvious? Who else would fly it?

Delta

Midwestindy wrote:

MSY-CDG is most definitely a possibility, they could run 4rt for Mardi Gras similar to AUS for SXSW to get it started....

AF could fly this but they'd have to move a plane, maybe a 777 around to do it as they take A350s and a few 789s. Do they have capacity to do this? Is it too much plane for MSY?

https://travelcodex.com/hub-routes-flee ... l+Codex%29

FLYKTPA wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

TPA’s Director of Air Service Development told me that if TPA gets AMS service, he expects it would be flown by KLM.

Is his name Captain Obvious? Who else would fly it?

Delta

KLM flying TPA-AMS with tickets sold as Delta flight numbers could very well happen. Delta flying TPA-AMS? That does not fit their virtual airline model and therefore will never happen.

IPFreely wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

TPA’s Director of Air Service Development told me that if TPA gets AMS service, he expects it would be flown by KLM.

Is his name Captain Obvious? Who else would fly it?

KLM does not have a lot of service to the US in smaller markets (the exceptions being Salt Lake City and Minneapolis). This is a market, like others, that I would expect to be served by Delta rather than the foreign carrier... KLM only operates to major markets that aren't skyteam hubs or in tandem with Delta. Not that this can't change, but that's how it seems to be right now.

The same can be found with AF. AF operates to: Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Orlando, San Francisco, and Washington DC. DL operates from all of those markets to CDG, and in addition to those markets we see: Vancouver, Seattle (AF just added seattle though), Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Raleigh Durham, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Montreal, and Toronto. The only exception is Orlando, which is operated by AF only.

There is a clear pattern here... DL operates with its joint venture partners to larger markets, alone to smaller markets in the US, and the european partner to larger markets that aren't skyteam hubs.

If anyone, I would expect delta to operate Tampa - AMS... its not as large compared to the destinations that KLM operates. The only exceptions would be Salt Lake City and Minneapolis being operated by both DL and KL, which are smaller markets, and like I said, SkyTeam hubs.

I don't know why anyone and everyone thinks they're entitled to a KLM flight,,, its simply not like KLM to add services like Tampa (nothing against Tampa, but KLM has cancelled Seattle, Detroit, Newark, Memphis, Dallas, and Baltimore in the US). It seemed like the airport directors words weren't directed specifically at KLM, and seeing the strong joint venture that exists, I would only expect Delta to operate the flight, if they ever do. Not that this can't change in the future, but once the JV was enabled we saw both KL and AF shift a lot of flights to smaller markets over to Delta...

jubguy3 wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

TPA’s Director of Air Service Development told me that if TPA gets AMS service, he expects it would be flown by KLM.

Is his name Captain Obvious? Who else would fly it?

KLM does not have a lot of service to the US in smaller markets (the exceptions being Salt Lake City and Minneapolis). This is a market, like others, that I would expect to be served by Delta rather than the foreign carrier... KLM only operates to major markets that aren't skyteam hubs or in tandem with Delta. Not that this can't change, but that's how it seems to be right now.

The same can be found with AF. AF operates to: Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Orlando, San Francisco, and Washington DC. DL operates from all of those markets to CDG, and in addition to those markets we see: Vancouver, Seattle (AF just added seattle though), Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Raleigh Durham, Minneapolis,

Pittsburgh, Montreal, and Toronto. The only exception is Orlando, which is operated by AF only.

There is a clear pattern here... DL operates with its joint venture partners to larger markets, alone to smaller markets in the US, and the european partner to larger markets that aren't skyteam hubs.

If anyone, I would expect delta to operate Tampa - AMS... its not as large compared to the destinations that KLM operates. The only exceptions would be Salt Lake City and Minneapolis being operated by both DL and KL, which are smaller markets, and like I said, SkyTeam hubs.

I don't know why anyone and everyone thinks they're entitled to a KLM flight,,, its simply not like KLM to add services like Tampa (nothing against Tampa, but KLM has cancelled Seattle, Detroit, Newark, Memphis, Dallas, and Baltimore in the US). It seemed like the airport directors words weren't directed specifically at KLM, and seeing the strong joint venture that exists, I would only expect Delta to operate the flight, if they ever do. Not that this can't change in the future, but once the JV was enabled we saw both KL and AF shift a lot of flights to smaller markets over to Delta...

Essentially what I'm saying is that unless your small city is a SkyTeam hub, expect service on Delta and not the European partner. KLM simply does not operate to small markets (and yes you can fight me but Tampa is small compared to LA, NYC, DC, ATL, etc) alone. Its always either to a skyteam hub along with Delta or to a larger market.

Edit: Sorry, I quoted myself instead of editing.

IPFreely wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

Is his name Captain Obvious? Who else would fly it?

Delta

KLM flying TPA-AMS with tickets sold as Delta flight numbers could very well happen. Delta flying TPA-AMS? That does not fit their virtual airline model and therefore will never happen.

Exactly. That's why KL flies PDX-AMS and AF will fly IND-CDG ... oh, wait.

Sightseer wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

Delta

KLM flying TPA-AMS with tickets sold as Delta flight numbers could very well happen. Delta flying TPA-AMS? That does not fit their virtual airline model and therefore will never happen.

Exactly. That's why KL flies PDX-AMS and AF will fly IND-CDG ... oh, wait.

Exactly. It’s the same thing with MCO-AMS on DL. I expect TPA-AMS to be added by DL if they announce their rumored new AMS- US routes later in the Fall.

ADrum23 wrote:

Capn wrote:

papatango wrote:

Any rumors on new AMS flights?

I would like to add my CONSIDERABLE 2CENTS, and say AMS will be adding in near future:
AUS BNA DEN SAN STL seem like very plausible adds in near future
Remember what value I placed on this.

I will say, if DL were to launch BNA-AMS, it would be a huge slap in the face to MEM. I doubt DL launches any TATL route (AMS or CDG) out of BNA for at least 2-3 years though.

I doubt BNA gets AMS for a long time. They are a very strong domestic market but I think they will have a lot to prove when it comes to international service. I think a more likely 2nd flight would be WOW just because they are going up against BA pricing. I think that will be typical of most markets of this size. They will start with a major carrier followed by a carrier like WOW stimulating demand a bit more. Of course all bets are off if Nashville lands HQ2.

Nola wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

MSY-CDG is most definitely a possibility, they could run 4rt for Mardi Gras similar to AUS for SXSW to get it started....

AF could fly this but they'd have to move a plane, maybe a 777 around to do it as they take A350s and a few 789s. Do they have capacity to do this? Is it too much plane for MSY?

https://travelcodex.com/hub-routes-flee ... l+Codex%29

This seems like a job for DL, AF has only announced a very select few new US routes in the past years, and DL has the a/c to better open up new markets....

Midwestindy wrote:

Nola wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

MSY-CDG is most definitely a possibility, they could run 4rt for Mardi Gras similar to AUS for SXSW to get it started....

AF could fly this but they'd have to move a plane, maybe a 777 around to do it as they take A350s and a few 789s. Do they have capacity to do this? Is it too much plane for MSY?

https://travelcodex.com/hub-routes-flee ... l+Codex%29

This seems like a job for DL, AF has only announced a very select few new US routes in the past years, and DL has the a/c to better open up new markets....

Seems like an AF 789 3-4 weekly would be a good balance of capacity and frequency to start if they were to do MSY-CDG.

Indy wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Capn wrote:

I would like to add my CONSIDERABLE 2CENTS, and say AMS will be adding in near future:
AUS BNA DEN SAN STL seem like very plausible adds in near future
Remember what value I placed on this.

I will say, if DL were to launch BNA-AMS, it would be a huge slap in the face to MEM. I doubt DL launches any TATL route (AMS or CDG) out of BNA for at least 2-3 years though.

I doubt BNA gets AMS for a long time. They are a very strong domestic market but I think they will have a lot to prove when it comes to international service. I think a more likely 2nd flight would be WOW just because they are going up against BA pricing. I think that will be typical of most markets of this size. They will start with a major carrier followed by a carrier like WOW stimulating demand a bit more. Of course all bets are off if Nashville lands HQ2.

Very doubtful Nashville gets HQ2, it will go to a larger city with a big metro area.

I agree a DL TATL flight out of BNA may be a while yet, but I do think people are underestimating BNA's international service. I think the BA flight will do at least as well as MSY, and while I don't ever see the BA flight being as successful as AUS, I could see it being upgauged to daily and maybe a 789.

I agree about WOW, I think they enter BNA sometime next year after BA starts.

I believe BNA has a smaller international market than IND. Their big draw is country music and that is mainly a domestic thing. But as we've seen on so many different new routes, the nonstop service stimulates demand. As for HQ2, I think it goes to a midsize city because they are the ones that are more than likely to pay the biggest ransom. A city like Chicago, for example, isn't going to offer up the kind of money a city like BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT would. Look at the ransom Wisconsin paid to Foxconn. You don't see Illinois wasting money like that.

msycajun wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

Nola wrote:

AF could fly this but they'd have to move a plane, maybe a 777 around to do it as they take A350s and a few 789s. Do they have capacity to do this? Is it too much plane for MSY?

https://travelcodex.com/hub-routes-flee ... l+Codex%29

This seems like a job for DL, AF has only announced a very select few new US routes in the past years, and DL has the a/c to better open up new markets....

Seems like an AF 789 3-4 weekly would be a good balance of capacity and frequency to start if they were to do MSY-CDG.

Did you read any of the 5 posts above you?

I feel like people say stuff like this because they want to believe that european metal (most specifically AF/KL, British Airways strategy seems to be a little different) is going to end up at their airport within the near future... the truth is that these joint ventures exist specifically so that european metal can be used elsewhere where the brand appeal has value: specifically connecting europeans through american hubs on their own metal, or premium large US markets. Aka not New Orleans. AF doesn't even serve Dallas, Denver yet. Not to mention that MSY-CDG is far fetched within a 5 year timeframe, especially on AF. A great use of the two dreamliners that Air France has.

Indy wrote:

I believe BNA has a smaller international market than IND. Their big draw is country music and that is mainly a domestic thing. But as we've seen on so many different new routes, the nonstop service stimulates demand. As for HQ2, I think it goes to a midsize city because they are the ones that are more than likely to pay the biggest ransom. A city like Chicago, for example, isn't going to offer up the kind of money a city like BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT would. Look at the ransom Wisconsin paid to Foxconn. You don't see Illinois wasting money like that.

I think the amount of times that "BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT" has appeared as a phrase constitutes over half of the data on the internet. These cities do not meet the requirements for the RPF. Am I going crazy or do half of all a.netters live in midwestern cities in some sort of lackluster mafia designed to try to get Amazon and every international carrier into their Formerly Booming Industrial City?

About the incentives... the fact that larger cities will not give into corporate handouts is mostly the result of local politics, not the fact that midsized cities are more competitive. If you're telling me that amazon will end up in Nashville... teehee...

jubguy3 wrote:

I think the amount of times that "BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT" has appeared as a phrase constitutes over half of the data on the internet. These cities do not meet the requirements for the RPF. Am I going crazy or do half of all a.netters live in midwestern cities in some sort of lackluster mafia designed to try to get Amazon and every international carrier into their Formerly Booming Industrial City?

About the incentives... the fact that larger cities will not give into corporate handouts is mostly the result of local politics, not the fact that midsized cities are more competitive. If you're telling me that amazon will end up in Nashville... teehee...

I am not saying midsize cities are more competitive. That was your own conclusion. I am saying the fact that they aren't very competitive is the reason they will give the handouts. If they were competitive the handouts wouldn't be necessary. Will HQ2 go to Nashville? Who knows. But I do believe it will go to a similar sized city because of the handouts. Amazon is going to do what Foxconn did. They are going to go where the biggest handout is. Granted, they have to balance the handout with the ability of the local market to fill the required jobs so that rules out small towns obviously. But the reality is that Amazon isn't going to get the sizable handouts from larger markets. They are going to go where the local government will line their pockets and where they can use their size to bully local politicians. That just isn't the larger markets in the U.S. If you think a large market will end up with Amazon then as you say... teehee.

jubguy3 wrote:

Indy wrote:

I believe BNA has a smaller international market than IND. Their big draw is country music and that is mainly a domestic thing. But as we've seen on so many different new routes, the nonstop service stimulates demand. As for HQ2, I think it goes to a midsize city because they are the ones that are more than likely to pay the biggest ransom. A city like Chicago, for example, isn't going to offer up the kind of money a city like BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT would. Look at the ransom Wisconsin paid to Foxconn. You don't see Illinois wasting money like that.

I think the amount of times that "BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT" has appeared as a phrase constitutes over half of the data on the internet. These cities do not meet the requirements for the RPF. Am I going crazy or do half of all a.netters live in midwestern cities in some sort of lackluster mafia designed to try to get Amazon and every international carrier into their Formerly Booming Industrial City?

About the incentives... the fact that larger cities will not give into corporate handouts is mostly the result of local politics, not the fact that midsized cities are more competitive. If you're telling me that amazon will end up in Nashville... teehee...

Wrong
The requirements are an international airport with many west coast flights and a population of more that 1 mil. Most if not all of those cities meet that description. I'm not saying they will be picked but they do meet the requirements.

jubguy3 wrote:

msycajun wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

This seems like a job for DL, AF has only announced a very select few new US routes in the past years, and DL has the a/c to better open up new markets....

Seems like an AF 789 3-4 weekly would be a good balance of capacity and frequency to start if they were to do MSY-CDG.

Did you read any of the 5 posts above you?

I feel like people say stuff like this because they want to believe that european metal (most specifically AF/KL, British Airways strategy seems to be a little different) is going to end up at their airport within the near future... the truth is that these joint ventures exist specifically so that european metal can be used elsewhere where the brand appeal has value: specifically connecting europeans through american hubs on their own metal, or premium large US markets. Aka not New Orleans. AF doesn't even serve Dallas, Denver yet. Not to mention that MSY-CDG is far fetched within a 5 year timeframe, especially on AF. A great use of the two dreamliners that Air France has.

Well, as you've said, they only have a few 789s currently, but will be receiving more over the next few years, so time will tell. Keep in mind that there were plenty of people saying that BA wouldn't send a Dreamliner to MSY in the years before it was announced. MSY has a higher proportion of Euro traffic headed to France than most places and AF has made a public visit to MSY not all that long ago, so I'm sure it's on their radar. Skyteam is the strongest alliance here (although losing ground to OW) and Norwegian has made public statements about wanting to serve MSY soon, likely including CDG. I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen, but AF does have a good plane for the route and JVs are just as much about have the right equipment for the route as they are about branding. If the JV does decide to use AF metal on a mid-sized market, I think MSY would be a logical choice - after all, MSY is the only mid-sized city with a French consulate, not to mention the cultural and business ties.

msycajun wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

msycajun wrote:

Seems like an AF 789 3-4 weekly would be a good balance of capacity and frequency to start if they were to do MSY-CDG.

Did you read any of the 5 posts above you?

I feel like people say stuff like this because they want to believe that european metal (most specifically AF/KL, British Airways strategy seems to be a little different) is going to end up at their airport within the near future... the truth is that these joint ventures exist specifically so that european metal can be used elsewhere where the brand appeal has value: specifically connecting europeans through american hubs on their own metal, or premium large US markets. Aka not New Orleans. AF doesn't even serve Dallas, Denver yet. Not to mention that MSY-CDG is far fetched within a 5 year timeframe, especially on AF. A great use of the two dreamliners that Air France has.

Well, as you've said, they only have a few 789s currently, but will be receiving more over the next few years, so time will tell. Keep in mind that there were plenty of people saying that BA wouldn't send a Dreamliner to MSY in the years before it was announced. MSY has a higher proportion of Euro traffic headed to France than most places and AF has made a public visit to MSY not all that long ago, so I'm sure it's on their radar. Skyteam is the strongest alliance here (although losing ground to OW) and Norwegian has made public statements about wanting to serve MSY soon, likely including CDG. I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen, but AF does have a good plane for the route and JVs are just as much about have the right equipment for the route as they are about branding. If the JV does decide to use AF metal on a mid-sized market, I think MSY would be a logical choice - after all, MSY is the only mid-sized city with a French consulate, not to mention the cultural and business ties.

Please read the post I posted about 5 posts up from where you posted (wow sorry that's wordy). Its not like AF or KL to launch service on their own metal to smaller non-skyteam hubs. Skyteam is the strongest market at MSY but that doesn't mean there is any connecting capacity. And safe to say... I would imagine that skyteam is the strongest because of ATL.

I would say that out of any city in its league MSY has the best chance of a CDG flight simply because of the french heritage in New Orleans but its not necessarily something that will drive -enough- demand. But more importantly what I'm trying to assess is the fact that when DL or AF adds a CDG flight its usually on DL for smaller markets or supplementing a DL flight to a larger market. This joint venture exists because its better for DL to add flights rather than AF... when the origin is in the US, US customers are willing to put up with US airlines, so its better for Delta to use their metal and for AF to use theirs in markets around the world (AF has a lot of holes outside of the US). The only thing that would compel AF to add instead of DL would be the ongoing 767/A330 shortage for DL, their resources are stretched thin and there is often only one spare 767 in the US at any time. But seeing as that BA already has london i'm not sure if the economics are there for AF to compete with british airways in capacity to europe.

stl07 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

Indy wrote:

I believe BNA has a smaller international market than IND. Their big draw is country music and that is mainly a domestic thing. But as we've seen on so many different new routes, the nonstop service stimulates demand. As for HQ2, I think it goes to a midsize city because they are the ones that are more than likely to pay the biggest ransom. A city like Chicago, for example, isn't going to offer up the kind of money a city like BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT would. Look at the ransom Wisconsin paid to Foxconn. You don't see Illinois wasting money like that.

I think the amount of times that "BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT" has appeared as a phrase constitutes over half of the data on the internet. These cities do not meet the requirements for the RPF. Am I going crazy or do half of all a.netters live in midwestern cities in some sort of lackluster mafia designed to try to get Amazon and every international carrier into their Formerly Booming Industrial City?

About the incentives... the fact that larger cities will not give into corporate handouts is mostly the result of local politics, not the fact that midsized cities are more competitive. If you're telling me that amazon will end up in Nashville... teehee...

Wrong
The requirements are an international airport with many west coast flights and a population of more that 1 mil. Most if not all of those cities meet that description. I'm not saying they will be picked but they do meet the requirements.

Requirements

Metropolitan areas with a population of over 1 million
A stable and business-friendly environment
Within 30 miles (48 km) of a population center
Within 45 minutes to an international airport
Proximity to major highways and arterial roads
Access to mass transit routes
Up to 8 million square feet (740,000 m2) of office space for future expansion
Optional preferences include airports with direct flights to Seattle, New York, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C., urban locations, and proximity to major universities.[5]

So no, many cities can't build 8m sqft within one central area (i mean like within a region of a city, not one contiguous property). Many cities lose points for mass transit and their business environment

jubguy3 wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

TPA’s Director of Air Service Development told me that if TPA gets AMS service, he expects it would be flown by KLM.

Is his name Captain Obvious? Who else would fly it?

KLM does not have a lot of service to the US in smaller markets (the exceptions being Salt Lake City and Minneapolis). This is a market, like others, that I would expect to be served by Delta rather than the foreign carrier... KLM only operates to major markets that aren't skyteam hubs or in tandem with Delta. Not that this can't change, but that's how it seems to be right now.

The same can be found with AF. AF operates to: Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Orlando, San Francisco, and Washington DC. DL operates from all of those markets to CDG, and in addition to those markets we see: Vancouver, Seattle (AF just added seattle though), Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Raleigh Durham, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Montreal, and Toronto. The only exception is Orlando, which is operated by AF only.

There is a clear pattern here... DL operates with its joint venture partners to larger markets, alone to smaller markets in the US, and the european partner to larger markets that aren't skyteam hubs.
If anyone, I would expect delta to operate Tampa - AMS... its not as large compared to the destinations that KLM operates. The only exceptions would be Salt Lake City and Minneapolis being operated by both DL and KL, which are smaller markets, and like I said, SkyTeam hubs.

I don't know why anyone and everyone thinks they're entitled to a KLM flight,,, its simply not like KLM to add services like Tampa (nothing against Tampa, but KLM has cancelled Seattle, Detroit, Newark, Memphis, Dallas, and Baltimore in the US). It seemed like the airport directors words weren't directed specifically at KLM, and seeing the strong joint venture that exists, I would only expect Delta to operate the flight, if they ever do. Not that this can't change in the future, but once the JV was enabled we saw both KL and AF shift a lot of flights to smaller markets over to Delta...

AF doesn't fly to MCO anymore.
JOON should restart the route.

Starting June 2018, AF will be back on CDG-SEA (B789) in addition to the existing Delta flight.
AF started SEA a few years ago before transfering the flight to DL, as part of the JV.

jubguy3 wrote:

stl07 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

I think the amount of times that "BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT" has appeared as a phrase constitutes over half of the data on the internet. These cities do not meet the requirements for the RPF. Am I going crazy or do half of all a.netters live in midwestern cities in some sort of lackluster mafia designed to try to get Amazon and every international carrier into their Formerly Booming Industrial City?

About the incentives... the fact that larger cities will not give into corporate handouts is mostly the result of local politics, not the fact that midsized cities are more competitive. If you're telling me that amazon will end up in Nashville... teehee...

Wrong
The requirements are an international airport with many west coast flights and a population of more that 1 mil. Most if not all of those cities meet that description. I'm not saying they will be picked but they do meet the requirements.

Requirements

Metropolitan areas with a population of over 1 million
A stable and business-friendly environment
Within 30 miles (48 km) of a population center
Within 45 minutes to an international airport
Proximity to major highways and arterial roads
Access to mass transit routes
Up to 8 million square feet (740,000 m2) of office space for future expansion
Optional preferences include airports with direct flights to Seattle, New York, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C., urban locations, and proximity to major universities.[5]

So no, many cities can't build 8m sqft within one central area (i mean like within a region of a city, not one contiguous property). Many cities lose points for mass transit and their business environment

Lol, all "those cities" meet those requirements, except PIT and CMH....

However, that is wildly off-topic from DL Future Expansion....

Getting back to the original rumor that DL is possibly going to add up to 6 new AMS-US routes, these are the cities that I see getting DL AMS routes:
RDU- because DL loves RDU, and their CDG flight seems to be doing well.
AUS- rumor is that it will become a permanent flight.
LAS- the Brookings numbers show that AMS-LAS is actually a large market by itself even without KLM feed that would use the flight.
MSY- has good European demand and to provide a Skyteam link to MSY.
SAN- route wanted by both AMS & SAN, they also have very strong European demand.
TPA- route wanted by both AMS and TPA, needs additional connectivity to a large EU hub.
What 6 cities do you think will get AMS service via DL later this Fall?

Would love to see Delta back on the DTW-ANC route in the summer months

TPA-AMS and MSY-CDG on skyteam are not happening there aren't enought O/D passengers going to europe that can't be routed over ATL so there is no need for a connection in Europe. Delta is perfectly happy routing TPA and MSY Europe bound passengers over ATL.

klm617 wrote:

TPA-AMS and MSY-CDG on skyteam are not happening there aren't enought O/D passengers going to europe that can't be routed over ATL so there is no need for a connection in Europe. Delta is perfectly happy routing TPA and MSY Europe bound passengers over ATL.

That can be said about most US cites, yet according to a DL pilot, DL is going to add new US to AMS routes. TPA and MSY have plenty of European demand to fill a DL flight to Europe.

FLYKTPA wrote:

klm617 wrote:

TPA-AMS and MSY-CDG on skyteam are not happening there aren't enought O/D passengers going to europe that can't be routed over ATL so there is no need for a connection in Europe. Delta is perfectly happy routing TPA and MSY Europe bound passengers over ATL.

That can be said about most US cites, yet according to a DL pilot, DL is going to add new US to AMS routes. TPA and MSY have plenty of European demand to fill a DL flight to Europe.

That can't be said for a lot of cities only those in close proximity to JFK and ATL where it is redundant to over fly those hubs when those frames can be used on flights that don't really have direct or convenient access to ATL or JFK for their European customers as those two hubs replicate what AMS and CDG do on the European side. So those passengers in TPA and MSY will be flowed over ATL where all major cities are accessible with one stop.

FLYKTPA wrote:

Getting back to the original rumor that DL is possibly going to add up to 6 new AMS-US routes, these are the cities that I see getting DL AMS routes:
RDU- because DL loves RDU, and their CDG flight seems to be doing well.
AUS- rumor is that it will become a permanent flight.
LAS- the Brookings numbers show that AMS-LAS is actually a large market by itself even without KLM feed that would use the flight.
MSY- has good European demand and to provide a Skyteam link to MSY.
SAN- route wanted by both AMS & SAN, they also have very strong European demand.
TPA- route wanted by both AMS and TPA, needs additional connectivity to a large EU hub.
What 6 cities do you think will get AMS service via DL later this Fall?

MKE
LAS
PHX
DEN
CVG
DFW

klm617 wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

klm617 wrote:

TPA-AMS and MSY-CDG on skyteam are not happening there aren't enought O/D passengers going to europe that can't be routed over ATL so there is no need for a connection in Europe. Delta is perfectly happy routing TPA and MSY Europe bound passengers over ATL.

That can be said about most US cites, yet according to a DL pilot, DL is going to add new US to AMS routes. TPA and MSY have plenty of European demand to fill a DL flight to Europe.

That can't be said for a lot of cities only those in close proximity to JFK and ATL where it is redundant to over fly those hubs when those frames can be used on flights that don't really have direct or convenient access to ATL or JFK for their European customers as those two hubs replicate what AMS and CDG do on the European side. So those passengers in TPA and MSY will be flowed over ATL where all major cities are accessible with one stop.

Then why is DL going to fly MCO-AMS and IND-CDG? According to you, those passengers can just connect in ATL, JFK ect.
Going by your logic-
MKE- convention access to MSP & DTW for EU
DFW- fly to ATL for EU
LAS, DEN, SAN & PHX can all go to LAX and SLC for EU.
So why fly to any of those cites?

ADrum23 wrote:

I will say, if DL were to launch BNA-AMS, it would be a huge slap in the face to MEM.

Why? I doubt MEM is expecting TATL service any time soon.

So much has changed in both Memphis and Nashville and in the industry environment since KLM flew MEM-AMS that it is relatively ancient history.

Indy wrote:

I believe BNA has a smaller international market than IND. Their big draw is country music and that is mainly a domestic thing. But as we've seen on so many different new routes, the nonstop service stimulates demand. As for HQ2, I think it goes to a midsize city because they are the ones that are more than likely to pay the biggest ransom. A city like Chicago, for example, isn't going to offer up the kind of money a city like BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT would. Look at the ransom Wisconsin paid to Foxconn. You don't see Illinois wasting money like that.

I realize the state of Illinois has had all kinds of fiscal problems recently, but when it comes to incentives, never say never.

As for the whole "Nashville is just country music blah blah blah" thing, I think that was argued to death in the TATL service threads that appeared prior to BA's announcement of BNA-LHR. I don't know which has a smaller international market, but with both cities now having TATL service (and now IND vs BNA TPAC service is being argued on the BNA thread), it's time to move on.

FLYKTPA wrote:

klm617 wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

That can be said about most US cites, yet according to a DL pilot, DL is going to add new US to AMS routes. TPA and MSY have plenty of European demand to fill a DL flight to Europe.

That can't be said for a lot of cities only those in close proximity to JFK and ATL where it is redundant to over fly those hubs when those frames can be used on flights that don't really have direct or convenient access to ATL or JFK for their European customers as those two hubs replicate what AMS and CDG do on the European side. So those passengers in TPA and MSY will be flowed over ATL where all major cities are accessible with one stop.

Then why is DL going to fly MCO-AMS and IND-CDG? According to you, those passengers can just connect in ATL, JFK ect.
Going by your logic-
MKE- convention access to MSP & DTW for EU
DFW- fly to ATL for EU
LAS, DEN, SAN & PHX can all go to LAX and SLC for EU.
So why fly to any of those cites?

MCO because have you ever heard of Disney it's a huge draw for Europeans. I said One Stop IND does not have convenient one stop access to most of Europe without a flight to CDG same for all the Western cities I named were as Florida and the surounding states have those one stop flights available over ATL so there is no need for direct access to Europe. I agree that DFW could use ATL but was hard preesed to come up with a 6th city so since it was linked to AMS before by KLM I added it to my list but not really believing it will get AMS access. Over DTW and MSP you only have 4 year round cities you could get to year round with FCO, MUC and KEF added to the list in the summer months. It's funny how people throw out all this great logic but when you toss that same logic back at them about the markets they are defending they can't embrace it. If there ever comes a TPA-AMS link it will not be on DL/KL

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:

Indy wrote:

I believe BNA has a smaller international market than IND. Their big draw is country music and that is mainly a domestic thing. But as we've seen on so many different new routes, the nonstop service stimulates demand. As for HQ2, I think it goes to a midsize city because they are the ones that are more than likely to pay the biggest ransom. A city like Chicago, for example, isn't going to offer up the kind of money a city like BNA, IND, CMH, STL, and PIT would. Look at the ransom Wisconsin paid to Foxconn. You don't see Illinois wasting money like that.

I realize the state of Illinois has had all kinds of fiscal problems recently, but when it comes to incentives, never say never.

As for the whole "Nashville is just country music blah blah blah" thing, I think that was argued to death in the TATL service threads that appeared prior to BA's announcement of BNA-LHR. I don't know which has a smaller international market, but with both cities now having TATL service (and now IND vs BNA TPAC service is being argued on the BNA thread), it's time to move on.

Let's face it when network carriers add international flights they are adding them because of the money trail nit because they are really viable on a stand alone basis.