klm617 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

No but VS does so technically they do.

can someone post the data for how many PDEW DTW-MAN has please?

I think we need the data for all the airports that might use DTW as a connection for a MAN flight so we need the PDEW from the entire great lakes region as far west as the great plains as Detroit could possibly field all these connection passengers then you would have a more accurate picture of what the loaf factor might be on a DTW-MAN flight

That's not how any of that works. I could fly from my airport to LAX and connect through amsterdam... there isn't much of an objective way to determine what is and isn't a valid connection, and there is no way to quantify how many people choose certain connections other than to look at previous data, which is useless because there is no date sofar for a DTW-MAN flight.

All I'm going to say is that I don't think that DTW-MAN is viable. I don't know why you are so fixated on MAN, I see you talking about it. All of the destinations that Virgin Atlantic serves are either Eastern Seaboard or vacation cities, or the SkyTeam megahub ATL. AA and UA would never run DTW-MAN, and BA doesn't fly to the US from MAN. AA can't even support a seasonal Chicago - Manchester flight... and they soak up all of the British oneworld traffic.

Why not focus on more viable flights, like MAD, BCN, CPH, DUB, MUC, and MXP, and moving FCO to yearly? I highly doubt that DTW-MAN would perform well. Even if there are maybe enough PDEW from the sections of the country west of Detroit where connecting in DTW would be the easiest option, that doesn't mean that any amount of people are guaranteed to choose DTW over connecting in Europe or using a different US airport with higher frequencies. Orlando sees 500k pax/year (this is very much europe-sided demand and already well served, no market for DTW, and I don't imagine that many people are connecting in Orlando). New York JFK has 320k pax/year. I imagine that JFK represents a significant amount of the traffic to and from the US and MAN that isn't in Florida. If a transatlantic flight has that few people flying from JFK, its probably not feasible.

klm617 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

No but VS does so technically they do.

can someone post the data for how many PDEW DTW-MAN has please?

I think we need the data for all the airports that might use DTW as a connection for a MAN flight so we need the PDEW from the entire great lakes region as far west as the great plains as Detroit could possibly field all these connection passengers then you would have a more accurate picture of what the loaf factor might be on a DTW-MAN flight

Most passengers in the great lakes area can connect in JFK to get to MAN and to a lesser extent ATL. You'll see mostly ICN adds to places like SLC, LAX and a second daily SEA flight before any DTW adds anywhere.

777Mech wrote:

klm617 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

can someone post the data for how many PDEW DTW-MAN has please?

I think we need the data for all the airports that might use DTW as a connection for a MAN flight so we need the PDEW from the entire great lakes region as far west as the great plains as Detroit could possibly field all these connection passengers then you would have a more accurate picture of what the loaf factor might be on a DTW-MAN flight

Most passengers in the great lakes area can connect in JFK to get to MAN and to a lesser extent ATL. You'll see mostly ICN adds to places like SLC, LAX and a second daily SEA flight before any DTW adds anywhere.

You do not have nonstop service from JFK to about 75% of the destination airports in the Midwest and Great Plains. There are more airport connected to DTW than there are to JFK so much more feed for a DTW-MAN than there is for a JFK-MAN

jubguy3 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

can someone post the data for how many PDEW DTW-MAN has please?

I think we need the data for all the airports that might use DTW as a connection for a MAN flight so we need the PDEW from the entire great lakes region as far west as the great plains as Detroit could possibly field all these connection passengers then you would have a more accurate picture of what the loaf factor might be on a DTW-MAN flight

That's not how any of that works. I could fly from my airport to LAX and connect through amsterdam... there isn't much of an objective way to determine what is and isn't a valid connection, and there is no way to quantify how many people choose certain connections other than to look at previous data, which is useless because there is no date sofar for a DTW-MAN flight.

All I'm going to say is that I don't think that DTW-MAN is viable. I don't know why you are so fixated on MAN, I see you talking about it. All of the destinations that Virgin Atlantic serves are either Eastern Seaboard or vacation cities, or the SkyTeam megahub ATL. AA and UA would never run DTW-MAN, and BA doesn't fly to the US from MAN. AA can't even support a seasonal Chicago - Manchester flight... and they soak up all of the British oneworld traffic.

Why not focus on more viable flights, like MAD, BCN, CPH, DUB, MUC, and MXP, and moving FCO to yearly? I highly doubt that DTW-MAN would perform well. Even if there are maybe enough PDEW from the sections of the country west of Detroit where connecting in DTW would be the easiest option, that doesn't mean that any amount of people are guaranteed to choose DTW over connecting in Europe or using a different US airport with higher frequencies. Orlando sees 500k pax/year (this is very much europe-sided demand and already well served, no market for DTW, and I don't imagine that many people are connecting in Orlando). New York JFK has 320k pax/year. I imagine that JFK represents a significant amount of the traffic to and from the US and MAN that isn't in Florida. If a transatlantic flight has that few people flying from JFK, its probably not feasible.

Yes and there is enough O/D passengers in every market that WOW Air and Icelandair add to sustain those flights to KEF I think not those flights are added because of the connections those cities can generate beyond KEF same would hold true for a MAN-DTW link. The picture is much bigger than just the DTW-MAN market DTW is the second most important hub in the Delta network Ed Bastian said so when he was here in Detroit last week and I have to believe him so DTW-MAN should be very much on the table.

Delta has been very quiet of late as to announcing dom. expansion. I am guessing it has to do with the C series uncertainty. Does anyone have any info as to plans and contingencies.
Or if not, how bout some good old fashioned rumors, just for conversations sake.

FLYKTPA wrote:

From what I’ve read on this forum, LH has had horrible loads out of SJC and BA hasn’t done all that well either. Why would DL to AMS work any better then BA and LH at SJC?

BA has operated SJC-LHR for a year and a half. The route is served every day of the week. Revenue trumps load. The fact that BA is offering weekend service is a better indicator of the flight's health than loads are. If the flight was under-performing BA would have cut the days it was losing money. This doesn't mean every flight is profitable but there needs to be enough revenue to warrant the continuation of service for the days it does fly. An airline might try to initially fly an unprofitable route that has growth potential but they aren't going to keep sinking money in it for a year and a half. At this point the flight is meeting it's revenue goals. If it was a poor route the cuts or discontinuation would have happened long ago.

klm617 wrote:

777Mech wrote:

klm617 wrote:

I think we need the data for all the airports that might use DTW as a connection for a MAN flight so we need the PDEW from the entire great lakes region as far west as the great plains as Detroit could possibly field all these connection passengers then you would have a more accurate picture of what the loaf factor might be on a DTW-MAN flight

Most passengers in the great lakes area can connect in JFK to get to MAN and to a lesser extent ATL. You'll see mostly ICN adds to places like SLC, LAX and a second daily SEA flight before any DTW adds anywhere.

You do not have nonstop service from JFK to about 75% of the destination airports in the Midwest and Great Plains. There are more airport connected to DTW than there are to JFK so much more feed for a DTW-MAN than there is for a JFK-MAN

And MSP has more Midwest and Great Plains destinations than DTW. So it is time to cut that excuse for whining about DTW lacking service... MSP should be due for ICN when the Delta/Korean Air JV comes to fruition.

And I suspect the "loaf factor" on a DTW-MAN flight would be too low to justify it over a coastal departure.

jordanh wrote:

klm617 wrote:

777Mech wrote:

Most passengers in the great lakes area can connect in JFK to get to MAN and to a lesser extent ATL. You'll see mostly ICN adds to places like SLC, LAX and a second daily SEA flight before any DTW adds anywhere.

You do not have nonstop service from JFK to about 75% of the destination airports in the Midwest and Great Plains. There are more airport connected to DTW than there are to JFK so much more feed for a DTW-MAN than there is for a JFK-MAN

And MSP has more Midwest and Great Plains destinations than DTW. So it is time to cut that excuse for whining about DTW lacking service... MSP should be due for ICN when the Delta/Korean Air JV comes to fruition.

And I suspect the "loaf factor" on a DTW-MAN flight would be too low to justify it over a coastal departure.

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Assuming apparent success of the JFK-GLA seasonal (and loss of UA EWR) could we see year round DL JFK-GLA (noting EDI now has a cut in year round DL)

Capn wrote:

Delta has been very quiet of late as to announcing dom. expansion. I am guessing it has to do with the C series uncertainty. Does anyone have any info as to plans and contingencies.
Or if not, how bout some good old fashioned rumors, just for conversations sake.

No inside knowledge one way or another, but I think CMH is now the largest market without a SEA nonstop with AS adding PIT...

DTW-MAN & MSP-MAN aren't happening either way so its a moot point.

MAN has minimal business ties to most US major markets outside of NYC, thus traffic is heavily skewed toward UK point-of-sale.
There has been a huge influx of TATL LCC service to MAN that is has trashed yields, led to overcapacity, and a pullback of service on the legacy-side.
UK point-of-sale traffic is heavily skewed to US leisure markets of which Florida is a very popular destination.

klm617 wrote:

jordanh wrote:

klm617 wrote:

You do not have nonstop service from JFK to about 75% of the destination airports in the Midwest and Great Plains. There are more airport connected to DTW than there are to JFK so much more feed for a DTW-MAN than there is for a JFK-MAN

And MSP has more Midwest and Great Plains destinations than DTW. So it is time to cut that excuse for whining about DTW lacking service... MSP should be due for ICN when the Delta/Korean Air JV comes to fruition.
And I suspect the "loaf factor" on a DTW-MAN flight would be too low to justify it over a coastal departure.

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Can you prove that - with real numbers? Give us PDEW for DTW, MSP, and BOS, for instance, to MAN. Until then, there is no reason to believe any of your claims.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

DTW-MAN & MSP-MAN aren't happening either way so its a moot point.
MAN has minimal business ties to most US major markets outside of NYC, thus traffic is heavily skewed toward UK point-of-sale.
There has been a huge influx of TATL LCC service to MAN that is has trashed yields, led to overcapacity, and a pullback of service on the legacy-side.
UK point-of-sale traffic is heavily skewed to US leisure markets of which Florida is a very popular destination.

Thank you for sensible reasoning and sensible conclusions. It seems to be lacking on this forum.

klm617 wrote:

jordanh wrote:

And MSP has more Midwest and Great Plains destinations than DTW. So it is time to cut that excuse for whining about DTW lacking service... MSP should be due for ICN when the Delta/Korean Air JV comes to fruition.
And I suspect the "loaf factor" on a DTW-MAN flight would be too low to justify it over a coastal departure.

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Given how low LHR LF's from DTW are for most of the year, I don't understand how MAN would even be a possibilty.

Another day, another DTW fanboy getting triggered. Classic A.net.

Seriously, why does DTW need a flight to MAN or ICN?

This whole debate is silly as its being driven by one poster.

DTW-MAN is not happening based on reasoning provided above.

DTW-ICN has been flown since 2009 and is a critical link down in the newly formed JV.
However, its unlikely to think that DTW would get a second daily ICN flight before MSP gets a first daily flight.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

This whole debate is silly as its being driven by one poster.

DTW-MAN is not happening based on reasoning provided above.

DTW-ICN has been flown since 2009 and is a critical link down in the newly formed JV.
However, its unlikely to think that DTW would get a second daily ICN flight before MSP gets a first daily flight.

So what is in the works then for DTW internationally speaking. If it's as crucial as you say then Detroit would surely get a second flight to ICN being ATL and SEA both are almost double daily already.

ADrum23 wrote:

Another day, another DTW fanboy getting triggered. Classic A.net.

Seriously, why does DTW need a flight to MAN or ICN?

Why does AUS, BOS, TPA and the like need any more flights as they are already over served.

cvgComair wrote:

klm617 wrote:

jordanh wrote:

And MSP has more Midwest and Great Plains destinations than DTW. So it is time to cut that excuse for whining about DTW lacking service... MSP should be due for ICN when the Delta/Korean Air JV comes to fruition.
And I suspect the "loaf factor" on a DTW-MAN flight would be too low to justify it over a coastal departure.

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Given how low LHR LF's from DTW are for most of the year, I don't understand how MAN would even be a possibilty.

What are the load factors on DTW-LHR

klm617 wrote:

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Let’s be honest. The only way DTW-MAN ever happens is if Virgin Atlantic flies it. This entire “Delta expansion” thread is crazy. Any expansion by “Delta” is really going to be expansion by Virgin Atlantic, Korean, or any of the Delta Connection carriers.

IPFreely wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Let’s be honest. The only way DTW-MAN ever happens is if Virgin Atlantic flies it. This entire “Delta expansion” thread is crazy. Any expansion by “Delta” is really going to be expansion by Virgin Atlantic, Korean, or any of the Delta Connection carriers.

And it's going to be at Atlanta because it's in a race with PVG and PEK to remain the worlds busiest airport and Delta will do whatever it can within it's power to protect that status.

klm617 wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Let’s be honest. The only way DTW-MAN ever happens is if Virgin Atlantic flies it. This entire “Delta expansion” thread is crazy. Any expansion by “Delta” is really going to be expansion by Virgin Atlantic, Korean, or any of the Delta Connection carriers.

And it's going to be at Atlanta because it's in a race with PVG and PEK to remain the worlds busiest airport and Delta will do whatever it can within it's power to protect that status.

Yes, since worlds busiest airport status is very important.

ADrum23 wrote:

Another day, another DTW fanboy getting triggered. Classic A.net.

Seriously, why does DTW need a flight to MAN or ICN?

The short answer is that DTW doesnt need a flight to MAN. The local market is tiny and even ORD has trouble supporting it. DTW-MAN is a nonstarter.

That said, DTW-ICN does quite well for itself given the ties between DL and KE not to mention, DTW-Asia is a very sizable local market with higher fares thanks to the auto industry.

klm617 wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Let’s be honest. The only way DTW-MAN ever happens is if Virgin Atlantic flies it. This entire “Delta expansion” thread is crazy. Any expansion by “Delta” is really going to be expansion by Virgin Atlantic, Korean, or any of the Delta Connection carriers.

And it's going to be at Atlanta because it's in a race with PVG and PEK to remain the worlds busiest airport and Delta will do whatever it can within it's power to protect that status.

Look man, I try my best to be fair to your replies because DTW is a great airport and I love Detroit as a city very much. Replies like this though are just down right dumb. DL cares far more about protecting market share at ATL than ATL remaining the worlds busiest airport. The moves they make are meant to protect that. They dont make business decisions to slight DTW. They would be bankrupt if they were making decisions based off of that.

They feel the same way about MSP but its a much easier market to protect because its so much smaller than Atlanta from an O&D perspective. Internationally they do it from DTW too. The only foreign carriers at DTW that are not aligned with DL are ones that can fill planes off local traffic. RJ caters to the overwhelmingly massive Arab community in Detroit and LH caters to auto traffic from the Germany end.

As for holes in the network, one that leaps to mind is ICT-DTW. I know it isnt as sexy as some of the more international ones, but it would be good to fill it.

As we are now during the page to December, the reality is that the Summer 2018 International flying is basically already announced and loaded for sale. Any new international routes have already been announced. Flight times, frequency, and aircraft types could change slightly, but essentially all new routes have already been announced by this point in the year.

Any new domestic Summer 2018 flying is likely to be announced and loaded for sale over the next few weeks. Based on historical scheduling practices and announcement timing these are typically done in Nov-Dec-Jan, and anything thereafter is basically timing, frequency, and aircraft type changes.

So, anything here about additional international routes is just going to be rampant speculation and hyperbole for the next 9-12 months until anything for 2019 is announced.

klm617 wrote:

And it's going to be at Atlanta because it's in a race with PVG and PEK to remain the worlds busiest airport and Delta will do whatever it can within it's power to protect that status.

That’s possible but it’s inevitable that PVG/PEK will become the world’s busiest. The only question is when. ATL will be relegated to trying to maintain its status as North Anerica’s busiest.

klm617 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

This whole debate is silly as its being driven by one poster.
DTW-MAN is not happening based on reasoning provided above.
DTW-ICN has been flown since 2009 and is a critical link down in the newly formed JV.
However, its unlikely to think that DTW would get a second daily ICN flight before MSP gets a first daily flight.

So what is in the works then for DTW internationally speaking. If it's as crucial as you say then Detroit would surely get a second flight to ICN being ATL and SEA both are almost double daily already.

What is "in the works" is that DTW gets to keep all the great international routes it has. Is there something in your U.S. Constitution that says DTW has to get more international flights every year? Is it in your bible? Or is it just in your daydreams?

klm617 wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Another day, another DTW fanboy getting triggered. Classic A.net.
Seriously, why does DTW need a flight to MAN or ICN?

Why does AUS, BOS, TPA and the like need any more flights as they are already over served.

AUS, TPA, and BOS add flights because they are growing - some of them rapidly-growing - markets. DTW is a mature, stable market; realistically (and I know being realistic is tough for you), it has been considered a shrinking market, but it kept its flights through some bad years, and now the airlines seem to be justified in believing in Detroit. Still, those other markets are growing much faster - and to claim they are "over served" just shows a level of naivete (or of ignorance) that destroys any credibility.

jordanh wrote:

klm617 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

This whole debate is silly as its being driven by one poster.
DTW-MAN is not happening based on reasoning provided above.
DTW-ICN has been flown since 2009 and is a critical link down in the newly formed JV.
However, its unlikely to think that DTW would get a second daily ICN flight before MSP gets a first daily flight.

So what is in the works then for DTW internationally speaking. If it's as crucial as you say then Detroit would surely get a second flight to ICN being ATL and SEA both are almost double daily already.

What is "in the works" is that DTW gets to keep all the great international routes it has. Is there something in your U.S. Constitution that says DTW has to get more international flights every year? Is it in your bible? Or is it just in your daydreams?

klm617 wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Another day, another DTW fanboy getting triggered. Classic A.net.
Seriously, why does DTW need a flight to MAN or ICN?

Why does AUS, BOS, TPA and the like need any more flights as they are already over served.

AUS, TPA, and BOS add flights because they are growing - some of them rapidly-growing - markets. DTW is a mature, stable market; realistically (and I know being realistic is tough for you), it has been considered a shrinking market, but it kept its flights through some bad years, and now the airlines seem to be justified in believing in Detroit. Still, those other markets are growing much faster - and to claim they are "over served" just shows a level of naivete (or of ignorance) that destroys any credibility.

So then let me ask you this match the O/D for some of the cities that are connected to Tampa, Boston, Austin, Charlotte and even Atlanta and you will see how Detroit is undeserved Just for the sake of argument what is the O/D between PVG and DTW and ATL or DUB or MAN and tell me that Detroit doesn't equally deserve to be linked to some of these cities. Every one talks about ICN-MSP what is the O/D there compared to Detroit. Please don't accuse me of being ignorant just because we don't agree because if anything that is a sign of ignorance right there. I have asked several times that if you want to respond to my comments to be respectful I have never responded in a disrespectful way to any one on here when we don't agree. There are a lot of people who could sure use a course in manners on this forum because they are more than immature in they way they interact and respond to others when they are not in agreement.

klm617 wrote:

So then let me ask you this match the O/D for some of the cities that are connected to Tampa, Boston, Austin, Charlotte and even Atlanta and you will see how Detroit is undeserved Just for the sake of argument what is the O/D between PVG and DTW and ATL or DUB or MAN and tell me that Detroit doesn't equally deserve to be linked to some of these cities. Every one talks about ICN-MSP what is the O/D there compared to Detroit.

Do you see any TPA-MAN flights? AUS? CLT? Flights from all those cities smaller than DTW go to major European hubs - just as flights from DTW do. DTW also has additional - many additional - flights that those cities don't have. You obsess about people having to travel through ATL, yet you seem jealous that people from those cities don't have to make a connection. And if you want to know about PDEW, look it up; you are the one making the continual, unending whines.

By the way, DTE already has an ICN flight... so MSP should be next in line...

klm617 wrote:

There are a lot of people who could sure use a course in manners on this forum because they are more than immature in they way they interact and respond to others when they are not in agreement.

And there is at least one who could use a course in fact-finding, rather than railing about what other people say...

jubguy3 wrote:

I don't know why you are so fixated on MAN, I see you talking about it. All of the destinations that Virgin Atlantic serves are either Eastern Seaboard or vacation cities, or the SkyTeam megahub ATL. AA and UA would never run DTW-MAN, and BA doesn't fly to the US from MAN. AA can't even support a seasonal Chicago - Manchester flight... and they soak up all of the British oneworld traffic.

Fixated... obsessed... it is a dream utterly unconnected with reality...

klm617 wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Another day, another DTW fanboy getting triggered. Classic A.net.

Seriously, why does DTW need a flight to MAN or ICN?

Why does AUS, BOS, TPA and the like need any more flights as they are already over served.

AUS British Airways daily 788 has been packed to the gills in the off season, even in between Austin global festivals (F1, Austin City Limits). A good friend and his wife just flew the plane r/t to LHR and were shocked it was max capacity out and back, although it was the late October/early November season. As it follows, BA is up-gauging to a 744 in March that likely will stick at least until Fall 2018. In addition, many of the Delta pax loads that reliably take a dip this time of year have held steady 80%+, and in some cases have been oversold through the week for no concrete reason, all the way through the Thanksgiving season. That anecdotal evidence along with Delta's continuing effort to accrue as many of the 9 new gates as possible (to likely bolster whatever future TATL plans they have) definitely discounts the AUS market being over served theory.

jordanh wrote:

klm617 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

This whole debate is silly as its being driven by one poster.
DTW-MAN is not happening based on reasoning provided above.
DTW-ICN has been flown since 2009 and is a critical link down in the newly formed JV.
However, its unlikely to think that DTW would get a second daily ICN flight before MSP gets a first daily flight.

So what is in the works then for DTW internationally speaking. If it's as crucial as you say then Detroit would surely get a second flight to ICN being ATL and SEA both are almost double daily already.

What is "in the works" is that DTW gets to keep all the great international routes it has. Is there something in your U.S. Constitution that says DTW has to get more international flights every year? Is it in your bible? Or is it just in your daydreams?

klm617 wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Another day, another DTW fanboy getting triggered. Classic A.net.
Seriously, why does DTW need a flight to MAN or ICN?

Why does AUS, BOS, TPA and the like need any more flights as they are already over served.

AUS, TPA, and BOS add flights because they are growing - some of them rapidly-growing - markets. DTW is a mature, stable market; realistically (and I know being realistic is tough for you), it has been considered a shrinking market, but it kept its flights through some bad years, and now the airlines seem to be justified in believing in Detroit. Still, those other markets are growing much faster - and to claim they are "over served" just shows a level of naivete (or of ignorance) that destroys any credibility.

klm617, DTW-MAN is 9 PDEW. Its actually smaller than CLT-MAN. ATL/IAH/ORD-MAN are all much larger markets.

jordanh wrote:

DTW is a mature, stable market...and now the airlines seem to be justified in believing in Detroit.

Yes, exactly.

klm617 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Given how low LHR LF's from DTW are for most of the year, I don't understand how MAN would even be a possibilty.

What are the load factors on DTW-LHR

Here are the load factors for the past year:
6-’16: 91%
7-’16: 79%
8-’16: 75%
9-’16: 71%
10-’16: 59%
11-’16: 56%
12-’16: 72%
1-’17: 67%
2-’17: 48%
3-’17: 71%
4-’17: 79%
5-’17: 90%

Besides May/June, the rest of the year is pretty weak. It is not terrible, but if this is this is how LHR does from DTW, a route to MAN with much less PDEW demand would be disastrous. There simply is not enough local and connecting demand for such a route to work.

IMO, DTW-HKG seems like a much more realistic and likely add for DTW, only having the 1 flight to SEA is a big weakness in the DL network compared to AA/UA. That is a route that shoud have reasonable local and connecting demand.

jbs2886 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

Let’s be honest. The only way DTW-MAN ever happens is if Virgin Atlantic flies it. This entire “Delta expansion” thread is crazy. Any expansion by “Delta” is really going to be expansion by Virgin Atlantic, Korean, or any of the Delta Connection carriers.

And it's going to be at Atlanta because it's in a race with PVG and PEK to remain the worlds busiest airport and Delta will do whatever it can within it's power to protect that status.

Yes, since worlds busiest airport status is very important.

It is to Delta because they never fail to mention it in any press release that pertains to ATL.

klm617 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

And it's going to be at Atlanta because it's in a race with PVG and PEK to remain the worlds busiest airport and Delta will do whatever it can within it's power to protect that status.

Yes, since worlds busiest airport status is very important.

It is to Delta because they never fail to mention it in any press release that pertains to ATL.

Just because they mention it (its an impressive stat) doesn't mean DL plans their decisions around it...shareholders wouldn't be happy.

IPFreely wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Yes but DTW gives you more. It gives you everything MSP has to offer plus all of the Midwest without back tracking so Detroit is a far better option for new flights to Europe. Also DTW-MAN has more PDEW than MSP-MAN.

Let’s be honest. The only way DTW-MAN ever happens is if Virgin Atlantic flies it. This entire “Delta expansion” thread is crazy. Any expansion by “Delta” is really going to be expansion by Virgin Atlantic, Korean, or any of the Delta Connection carriers.

Yeah you are totally right, that is why Delta just added MCO-AMS and CDG-IND

cvgComair wrote:

klm617 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

Given how low LHR LF's from DTW are for most of the year, I don't understand how MAN would even be a possibilty.

What are the load factors on DTW-LHR

Here are the load factors for the past year:
6-’16: 91%
7-’16: 79%
8-’16: 75%
9-’16: 71%
10-’16: 59%
11-’16: 56%
12-’16: 72%
1-’17: 67%
2-’17: 48%
3-’17: 71%
4-’17: 79%
5-’17: 90%

Besides May/June, the rest of the year is pretty weak. It is not terrible, but if this is this is how LHR does from DTW, a route to MAN with much less PDEW demand would be disastrous. There simply is not enough local and connecting demand for such a route to work.

IMO, DTW-HKG seems like a much more realistic and likely add for DTW, only having the 1 flight to SEA is a big weakness in the DL network compared to AA/UA. That is a route that shoud have reasonable local and connecting demand.

Interesting numbers indeed one would wonder why at one of Delta's largest hubs that the numbers are this low. Could it be that the Delta brand is weak in the UK verses BA or that in the Delta system connections over Detroit are not as attractive as the other hubs. Has the SLC-LHR flight taken away potential connections at DTW from the west.

Would love to see DTW-ANC added again

jbs2886 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

Yes, since worlds busiest airport status is very important.

It is to Delta because they never fail to mention it in any press release that pertains to ATL.

Just because they mention it (its an impressive stat) doesn't mean DL plans their decisions around it...shareholders wouldn't be happy.

Oh but they do you should not be so naive Delta is run on ego.

A couple years ago Delta did one-off flights to SLC for the ski season at the end of November and March. The most recent one was November 30, 2014. They operated nonstops from SLC to Charleston,SC ; Norfolk ; Washington Dulles ; Pittsburgh ; Columbus,OH ; Hartford ; Fort Lauderdale; Tampa ; and Syracuse.

What are the chances that they will ever do this again?

With the CS100 arriving in 2018 shouldn't we expect to see frequency consolidation in markets with heavy RJ use? For instance DTW is one of the heavier RJ hubs for Delta, could we expect to see more less frequencies on some routes, and larger aircraft- including mainline?

In the past, Delta offered a direct flight between CLE and SLC. Any chance they'd bring that back? Right now, there is very little from DL connecting CLE pax to Delta's western network.

flyboy80 wrote:

With the CS100 arriving in 2018 shouldn't we expect to see frequency consolidation in markets with heavy RJ use? For instance DTW is one of the heavier RJ hubs for Delta, could we expect to see more less frequencies on some routes, and larger aircraft- including mainline?

I'm not sure that the CS100 will arrive in 2018, unless I've missed something.

klm617 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

It is to Delta because they never fail to mention it in any press release that pertains to ATL.

Just because they mention it (its an impressive stat) doesn't mean DL plans their decisions around it...shareholders wouldn't be happy.

Oh but they do you should not be so naive Delta is run on ego.

Considering DL's financial and operational performance the past seven years, I find this claim patently absurd.

tlecam wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

With the CS100 arriving in 2018 shouldn't we expect to see frequency consolidation in markets with heavy RJ use? For instance DTW is one of the heavier RJ hubs for Delta, could we expect to see more less frequencies on some routes, and larger aircraft- including mainline?

I'm not sure that the CS100 will arrive in 2018, unless I've missed something.

The CS100 was originally scheduled for delivery in 2018, but that timetable is being discussed due to the tariffs. See: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... deliveries

klm617 wrote:

Interesting numbers indeed one would wonder why at one of Delta's largest hubs that the numbers are this low. Could it be that the Delta brand is weak in the UK verses BA or that in the Delta system connections over Detroit are not as attractive as the other hubs. Has the SLC-LHR flight taken away potential connections at DTW from the west.

Load Factor is only a fraction of the story on a route like DTW-LHR, which is bankrolled by exceptionally high yielding premium traffic from Ford and GM not to mention notable revenues from the big four accounting firms.

As DL pulls down the NRT connecting complex, that traffic will be shifted to N/S flights originating from it's domestic N. America Hubs.

NWA was planning on doing this with the 787, as the 744 was too large, which generally resulted in less than optimal RASM on flights like DTW HKG.

DL will use the A350 to accomplish the NRT pull-down. As new A/C are delivered, one should expect new TPAC flights- particularly from DTW, flying non-stop to historically served points south of NRT.

As I have previously written, DL has inherited, and maintained NW's extensive traffic generating contacts on both sides of the Pacific for traffic to/from MNL, SIA, TPE, and HKG in particular.

DL will use these contacts to generate profitable RASM between DTW and some of these cities as the A350's arrive in the fleet.

klm617 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

klm617 wrote:

What are the load factors on DTW-LHR

Here are the load factors for the past year:
6-’16: 91%
7-’16: 79%
8-’16: 75%
9-’16: 71%
10-’16: 59%
11-’16: 56%
12-’16: 72%
1-’17: 67%
2-’17: 48%
3-’17: 71%
4-’17: 79%
5-’17: 90%

Besides May/June, the rest of the year is pretty weak. It is not terrible, but if this is this is how LHR does from DTW, a route to MAN with much less PDEW demand would be disastrous. There simply is not enough local and connecting demand for such a route to work.

IMO, DTW-HKG seems like a much more realistic and likely add for DTW, only having the 1 flight to SEA is a big weakness in the DL network compared to AA/UA. That is a route that shoud have reasonable local and connecting demand.

Interesting numbers indeed one would wonder why at one of Delta's largest hubs that the numbers are this low. Could it be that the Delta brand is weak in the UK verses BA or that in the Delta system connections over Detroit are not as attractive as the other hubs. Has the SLC-LHR flight taken away potential connections at DTW from the west.

SLC-LHR has not been doing well, last I checked the load factors for the previous year were around 50%. In contrast to the 80's and 90's on DL's CDG and AMS services and KLM's AMS service. They cut it to seasonally a while back.

beerbus wrote:

As DL pulls down the NRT connecting complex, that traffic will be shifted to N/S flights originating from it's domestic N. America Hubs.

NWA was planning on doing this with the 787, as the 744 was too large, which generally resulted in less than optimal RASM on flights like DTW HKG.

DL will use the A350 to accomplish the NRT pull-down. As new A/C are delivered, one should expect new TPAC flights- particularly from DTW, flying non-stop to historically served points south of NRT.

As I have previously written, DL has inherited, and maintained NW's extensive traffic generating contacts on both sides of the Pacific for traffic to/from MNL, SIA, TPE, and HKG in particular.

DL will use these contacts to generate profitable RASM between DTW and some of these cities as the A350's arrive in the fleet.

The only feasible market that you listed from DTW is HKG. There is not going to be service from DTW to MNL, SIN or TPE (DL no longer serves TPE with its own metal) for the foreseeable future. DL doesn't even serve TPE from SEA, which is easily the most likely route if DL ever decides to restart service to TPE. DL's transition away from NRT is largely complete, save for a few beach market flights and SIN and MNL. These may stay but once the JV with KE achieved, I can see these going away on DL metal as well.

Jeremy

Sightseer wrote:

klm617 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

Just because they mention it (its an impressive stat) doesn't mean DL plans their decisions around it...shareholders wouldn't be happy.

Oh but they do you should not be so naive Delta is run on ego.

Considering DL's financial and operational performance the past seven years, I find this claim patently absurd.

You don’t get that he was being sarcastic?