Trying to figure out why this flight even operated!

https://twitter.com/thatbillokeefe/stat ... 9324001280

Well they just landed. We will see if they make it back out before it hits. Hope they don't go mechanical.

The return flight, DL 302 is now boarding. scheduled to leave SJU 20 minutes early.

Left the gate so now we see if the winds cooperate to get them back out. Very quick turn!

pksundevil wrote:

Left the gate so now we see if the winds cooperate to get them back out. Very quick turn!

winds are pretty gusty. NNW at 30 MPH with higher gusts and getting worse.

The inbound landed at 1201 and got to the gate around 12:07 and now pushed back at 12:41. Not to bad, pretty quick turn indeed. You figure 10 to 15 minutes to deplane, I wonder if the return flight even got a full cleaning and catering service; probably just some Jet A and up up and away.

Fairly sure inbound would be empty or close to. So just load em up, get them out.

Up in the air, will be a bumpy first few minutes.

Hat's off to Delta for getting folks out of there.

jumbojet wrote:

pksundevil wrote:

Left the gate so now we see if the winds cooperate to get them back out. Very quick turn!

winds are pretty gusty. NNW at 30 MPH with higher gusts and getting worse.

The inbound landed at 1201 and got to the gate around 12:07 and now pushed back at 12:41. Not to bad, pretty quick turn indeed. You figure 10 to 15 minutes to deplane, I wonder if the return flight even got a full cleaning and catering service; probably just some Jet A and up up and away.

I doubt many people would be deplaning. Few people fly into a hurricane. I would assume that the plane would be full getting people out of SJU.

I hope all the employees are ok and can get safely home before the weather gets too bad. It requires over a dozen people working to get a plane out.

Apparently Delta was able to get all of the non revs out on this flight which was over 100 people.

No hats off.

It's stupid.


If av fans are cringing, imagine what the pilots are thinking.

What if plane needed maintenance? What if someone got sick delaying departure?

What if what if what if?

Moronic. Stupid. Avoidable.

jfklganyc wrote:

No hats off.

It's stupid.


If av fans are cringing, imagine what the pilots are thinking.

What if plane needed maintenance? What if someone got sick delaying departure?

What if what if what if?

Moronic. Stupid. Avoidable.

So you would be OK if DL left 100+ non-revs in Puerto Rico even though they could have gotten in and out in time? DL isn't going to do the flight unless they are confident it is safe; sure, it may be bumpy, but it was safe. DL doesn't want a crash on its record - for you to suggest that DL is playing fast and loose with its employees and customers' lives is a bit dramatic.

jfklganyc wrote:

No hats off.

It's stupid.


If av fans are cringing, imagine what the pilots are thinking.

What if plane needed maintenance? What if someone got sick delaying departure?

What if what if what if?

Moronic. Stupid. Avoidable.

The operating conditions were within the safe zone for operations. They didn't take off into the eye wall of the hurricane. Aircraft are designed and built to withstand severe weather and the conditions at SJU were not severe.

Besides the fact if DL wasn't confident in the flight and something would have happened to the aircraft during take off, it would be a larger PR blunder than UA's dragged off the flight mess. No it wasn't stupid. I'm sure the 100+ passengers were very thankful they did this.

Also, who says a 739 is a pain to take off in?

I would have had absolute confidence, as I have seen Delta operate many flights throughout the years and making a hard bank to the left or right when severe thunderstorms would be approaching ATL. I'm sure the turns from San Juan to avoid the storms were quite dramatic to say the least.

jbs2886 wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

No hats off.

It's stupid.


If av fans are cringing, imagine what the pilots are thinking.

What if plane needed maintenance? What if someone got sick delaying departure?

What if what if what if?

Moronic. Stupid. Avoidable.

So you would be OK if DL left 100+ non-revs in Puerto Rico even though they could have gotten in and out in time? DL isn't going to do the flight unless they are confident it is safe; sure, it may be bumpy, but it was safe. DL doesn't want a crash on its record - for you to suggest that DL is playing fast and loose with its employees and customers' lives is a bit dramatic.

Interesting that of the 4 inbounds (AA, 2 B6s, and DL), 3 of the 4 did air returns. Only DL was foolish enough to go in.

For what, nonrevs? C'mon...

jumbojet wrote:

pksundevil wrote:

Left the gate so now we see if the winds cooperate to get them back out. Very quick turn!

winds are pretty gusty. NNW at 30 MPH with higher gusts and getting worse.

The inbound landed at 1201 and got to the gate around 12:07 and now pushed back at 12:41. Not to bad, pretty quick turn indeed. You figure 10 to 15 minutes to deplane, I wonder if the return flight even got a full cleaning and catering service; probably just some Jet A and up up and away.

Think they would have told passengers to forgo all of that to ensure that they didn't get trapped in SJU. TS winds are now impacting that island even though they seem to be escaping the eyewall.

catiii wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

No hats off.

It's stupid.


If av fans are cringing, imagine what the pilots are thinking.

What if plane needed maintenance? What if someone got sick delaying departure?

What if what if what if?

Moronic. Stupid. Avoidable.

So you would be OK if DL left 100+ non-revs in Puerto Rico even though they could have gotten in and out in time? DL isn't going to do the flight unless they are confident it is safe; sure, it may be bumpy, but it was safe. DL doesn't want a crash on its record - for you to suggest that DL is playing fast and loose with its employees and customers' lives is a bit dramatic.

Interesting that of the 4 inbounds (AA, 2 B6s, and DL), 3 of the 4 did air returns. Only DL was foolish enough to go in.

For what, nonrevs? C'mon...

Yes, DL loves to be foolish and risk lives and millions in aircraft, much less PR. As someone clearly stated above, it was well within the safe zone for flying. Lots of airlines cancel flights during storms, but some still land during storms, happens all the time.

jfklganyc wrote:

No hats off.

It's stupid.


If av fans are cringing, imagine what the pilots are thinking.

What if plane needed maintenance? What if someone got sick delaying departure?

What if what if what if?

Moronic. Stupid. Avoidable.

I'm a pilot and I'm not cringing.

Sure, a 1-in-10000 maintenance scenario where you have a sudden non-deferrable issue arise a few minutes before departure time on a jet that just flew in with everything working is possible.

But that's about it, and that's probably about the probability of that happening: 1 in thousands.

Someone gets sick? Well then they're not going. Does that answer this question?

What if, what else?

Multiple runways at the airport, and they face different directions. Wind well within limits.

It's 2017 -- TAF wind forecasts are very accurate and this storm can be seen coming on the radar/satellite at a predictable speed.

jbs2886 wrote:

Lots of airlines cancel flights during storms, but some still land during storms, happens all the time.

The most recent example being the KL 744 that landed in HKG during Typhoon Hato!

jfklganyc wrote:

No hats off.

It's stupid.


If av fans are cringing, imagine what the pilots are thinking.

What if plane needed maintenance? What if someone got sick delaying departure?

What if what if what if?

Moronic. Stupid. Avoidable.

I'm going to guess they were thinking the same thing most pilots think when flying an airplane.

Also going to guess you don't quite understand how crew assignments work.

Contrary to popular belief flight crew do not want to die.

This was the "Non-Rev Express" to say the least. As I last heard, aircraft came in empty, and only Pax on board were employees they were evacuating, so all PAX NRSA.

As far as everyone flipping out, nobody forced the crew to do this- it was an extra section that was added. So, everyone needs to calm down for a second.

catiii wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

No hats off.

It's stupid.


If av fans are cringing, imagine what the pilots are thinking.

What if plane needed maintenance? What if someone got sick delaying departure?

What if what if what if?

Moronic. Stupid. Avoidable.

So you would be OK if DL left 100+ non-revs in Puerto Rico even though they could have gotten in and out in time? DL isn't going to do the flight unless they are confident it is safe; sure, it may be bumpy, but it was safe. DL doesn't want a crash on its record - for you to suggest that DL is playing fast and loose with its employees and customers' lives is a bit dramatic.

Interesting that of the 4 inbounds (AA, 2 B6s, and DL), 3 of the 4 did air returns. Only DL was foolish enough to go in.

For what, nonrevs? C'mon...

Well you two just demonstrated your complete lack of knowledge. If it wasn't safe, the flight would not have operated.

I'm surprised DL enployees where at the airport working, my family tells me in Ponce everythjng as of 1000 am was shut, barely people on tbe streets. SJU was much more exposed, they should have told ground staff to go home early and CX that flight.

chepos wrote:

I'm surprised DL enployees where at the airport working, my family tells me in Ponce everythjng as of 1000 am was shut, barely people on tbe streets. SJU was much more exposed, they should have told ground sMobilizing crewstaff to go home early and CX that flight.

Better to get passengers and crews out of the island before the hurricane. One doesn't know when travel will return to normal given that FL will be impacted in the weekend as well. There will be backup due to flight cancelations. So repositioning crews into the right places makes sense.

Mobilizing crews is easier than mobilizing the general public so they could have operated once winds weren't dangerous.

Delta had better take care of those ground staff for making them stay as long as they did. They're the real stars here. For the pilots it's just another gusty day of flying.

The DL decision appears to be a good meteorological guess. From Weather.com

The center of Irma is located around 55 miles north-northwest of San Juan, Puerto Rico and is moving west-northwestward at about 16 mph.

Rain is spreading across Puerto Rico, but Irma is expected to pull away from Puerto Rico late this evening. A sustained wind of 55 mph with a gust to 70 mph was recently reported at an observing site in San Juan Bay, Puerto Rico.

https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/ne ... -islands-0

FIrst-time poster, years-long lurker

One thing I feel missing from this discussion virtually anywhere I find it is the call on resources at SJU as a result of this decision by DL.

Not only was DL 302 the last out of SJU, it was 2.5 hours after the penultimate departure. Best I can think of this: that means all the minimum ancillary services required to accommodate this flight, from ground/tower/departure ATC to ramp personnel to gate support - all were delayed in the opportunity to begin making their personal preparations by something like 2.5 hours. Just something I feel is missing from the analysis. Thanks.

5KOVERLIBOR wrote:

FIrst-time poster, years-long lurker

One thing I feel missing from this discussion virtually anywhere I find it is the call on resources at SJU as a result of this decision by DL.

Not only was DL 302 the last out of SJU, it was 2.5 hours after the penultimate departure. Best I can think of this: that means all the minimum ancillary services required to accommodate this flight, from ground/tower/departure ATC to ramp personnel to gate support - all were delayed in the opportunity to begin making their personal preparations by something like 2.5 hours. Just something I feel is missing from the analysis. Thanks.

The airport was open for business until 2 PM from what I understand. That wasn't their decision to make, its not like they called the airport and asked them to extend operating hours. They made it in and out within that time frame. Nothing wrong with what they did. They played by the rules. Oh, and welcome to Anet.

You know what would have been an even better job? Flying in an hour earlier and getting their folks out before the storm was close.

You don't know much about airline ops, do you, DLX?

DL certainly would have preferred to do so, but putting together the plan (probably approved by a pilot in the OC, getting the crew and plane readied, getting it all over to the dispatchers, getting them and the crew to accept it. It all takes time. I've done HUREVACS in the AF, most involve a lot of last minute work and pros who won't had pressured by time. They work out and check the details and proceed inbound with a plan to either land or divert. I frankly think it was a very professional job. As to AA and JB, they made their professional decisions not to continue for reasons we don't know.

GF

D L X wrote:

You know what would have been an even better job? Flying in an hour earlier and getting their folks out before the storm was close.

Interesting, you can of course prove Delta had all the assets to do so.....?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

You don't know much about airline ops, do you, DLX?

I wrote my masters thesis on airline ops. So yes, I know a little.

One thing I know is that even Delta's operation has slack designed into it because of the regularly occurring adventures of the day.

This wasn't a last minute decision. How many days ago did you learn of Irma? Why would anyone think that Delta just learned of a need to lift people from SJU four hours before they flew a plane down from New York?

Also, this wasn't an extra section. DL302 flies daily. I really don't understand a lot of the comments on here suggesting otherwise.

Please keep the thread on topic and personal attacks and flamebait out if the discussion

TransWorldOne wrote:

Apparently Delta was able to get all of the non revs out on this flight which was over 100 people.

And you can bet that those non-revs were mostly employees and their families based at SJU, not some last-minute sun worshipers who hadn't heard about the impending hurricane.

Whenever a severe weather event is predicted, most airlines make an effort to evacuate their staff and the families, as well as any stranded passengers who remain; it is a commendable policy that shows concern for the passengers, their employees, and the families. If the other airlines were unable to get in and out, I am sure their staff - waiting on the ground, and hoping for an exit - were disappointed. The pilots and crew are fully aware of the situation, and were given alternative options should they decide the weather is too severe to continue. In this case, the Captain decided it was appropriate to complete the mission, and - obviously - he did it safely and did it well.

Rather than petty backstabbing from the peanut gallery, he - and the airline - deserve commendation for their decision. I am sure all the passengers who boarded would agree.

spokemd wrote:

Hat's off to Delta for getting folks out of there.

http://nypost.com/2017/09/06/delta-flig ... -and-wins/

when you make the New York Post, a tabloid rag, for being voluntarily "gutzy" and it involves your pilot certificate and an airliner with people on it...you're doing something risky and questionable.

Again I will ask what if there was a maintenance thing on the ground ? if it was the standard sign off that took an hour? Then what?

what if one of the pilots felt ill? what if one of the flight attendants was injured by a bag falling on her hand during deplaning? what if you go to start the engine and you have low oil pressure or high oil temperature? what if you have a bleed leak or duct overheat?

somebody else said these are things that don't happen often ... but when you take a look at the overall picture something does happen frequently.

anyone of those things could've happened and delayed their departure.

I understand that many of the readers on here are not pilots. I also understand that many people that are pilots are not airline pilots. I mean no offense to these people.

as an airline pilot in 2017, in the United States of America,for one of the world's safest airlines, you do not take unnecessary risks without a way out or a backup plan.

this was an incredibly gutsy move but had to work the first time. that makes it an incredibly stupid move.

this isnt a military operation, where you go back to evacuate guys that are surrounded by the enemy. you simply cannot run an airline with that mentality .

if Delta felt the need to evacuate passengers and/or crew from San Juan: you do it earlier, you do it off of a shorter flight with more predictability (from Florida or Atlanta) and you close up shop well before you're anywhere near this thing .

Social media has now picked up on this. Delta's meteorology team is the best in the business.



This Delta Flight Raced Irma and Won

Delta flight from New York’s JFK airport managed to fly into San Juan, Puerto Rico, pull into the gate, and less than an hour later take off full of passengers — all while Hurricane Irma was bearing down on the island Wednesday.

Radar data of the plane’s flight path offered a spectacular show for aviation enthusiasts who followed in real time as Delta Flight 431 headed south right into the dangerous storm before noon “Where others have turned back, Delta #DL431 presses on,” tweeted the Flightrada22. Jason Rabinowitz, a self-described aviation geek tweeted the flight’s trajectory in real time, uploading images of the plane climbing out of San Juan between the outer band of Irma and the core of the storm. “Amazing stuff,” Rabinowitz said.

Our meteorology team is the best in the business,” said Erik Snell, vice president for Delta operations and customer center. “They took a hard look at the weather data and the track of the storm and worked with the flight crew and dispatcher to agree it was safe to operate the flight. And our flight and ground crews were incredible in their effort to turn the aircraft quickly and safely so the flight could depart well before the hurricane threat.”
.

More here:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/this-d ... spartanntp

jumbojet wrote:

The airport was open for business until 2 PM from what I understand. That wasn't their decision to make, its not like they called the airport and asked them to extend operating hours. They made it in and out within that time frame. Nothing wrong with what they did. They played by the rules. Oh, and welcome to Anet.

Thanks, I've spent collective weeks reading through the great stuff here and felt compelled to offer my amateur 2c on this. Fair point on SJU being open - if its open - its open.

Did anyone consider that B6 and AA turned back because their arrivals coincided with an outer band of Irma that was battering the area. The outer band passed and Delta made it in.
It wasn't stupid, or unsafe. I am by no means a DLfan boy, much the opposite rather, but those guys are professional and would not have operated outside of limitations.
It truly amazes me when people on this site feel like they make better decisions than airlines that have been around for 80+years and second guess every decision they make.

Another article about the flight. It also goes into the meteorology team's role in the flight and how much they planned to make sure it went successfully. It also includes a video of the first portion of takeoff from SJU and points out that the conditions were always safe for takeoff and landing.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/09/0 ... -irma.html

5KOVERLIBOR wrote:

FIrst-time poster, years-long lurker

One thing I feel missing from this discussion virtually anywhere I find it is the call on resources at SJU as a result of this decision by DL.

Not only was DL 302 the last out of SJU, it was 2.5 hours after the penultimate departure. Best I can think of this: that means all the minimum ancillary services required to accommodate this flight, from ground/tower/departure ATC to ramp personnel to gate support - all were delayed in the opportunity to begin making their personal preparations by something like 2.5 hours. Just something I feel is missing from the analysis. Thanks.

I feel for the employees and have the same thoughts. 6 TSA agents, a couple gate agents, a couple rampers, a mechanic, a fueler, ARFF, and possibly (but not necessary) catering, cleaning, lavatory servicing, and ATC all working and then having to drive home while the hurricane bands are coming through. Social media praises the pilots, but I praise the ground crew that were all there to get the plane out. The guys working outside would be battling the elements to get the plane quickly turned around all while having to be cognizant of how lightening could shut down the ramp at any time and keep the airplane stuck. Meanwhile they likely have families worrying about where they are and if they will get home or end up stock on the road.

My post might sound sensationalistic, but I've been that guy working on the ramp when 90% of flights are canceled wondering why operations based thousands of miles away decided to keep the flight moving and constantly asking for updates on what was going on in a blinding storm. I've seen rampers quit and go home and seen a captain have to close an empty cargo bin door himself and leave otherwise he'd be stuck in the storm. I congratulate the ground crew in SJU working for Delta and all their contractors to make it happen. I'm sure they all wished the flight was earlier, but sometimes that isn't an option.

jfklganyc wrote:

No hats off.

It's stupid.


If av fans are cringing, imagine what the pilots are thinking.

What if plane needed maintenance? What if someone got sick delaying departure?

What if what if what if?

Moronic. Stupid. Avoidable.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Delta probably has a better understanding of what is "safe" for their airline ops than you (or me for that matter) do.

mjzair wrote:

Did anyone consider that B6 and AA turned back because their arrivals coincided with an outer band of Irma that was battering the area. The outer band passed and Delta made it in.
.

Then maybe better coordination with their own meteorology teams would have better gotten them in and out? Maybe DL has better meteorological equipment and teams? I am not saying they do but if they made it in and the others didn't than the question needs to be asked, why?
Check out some interesting articles on DL's weather folks and some of the meteorological equipment installed on its planes:

Deltas 25 Meteorologists Keep Eyes on Skies

Behind the scenes, Delta’s team of 25 meteorologists - larger than any other airline - is working hard to keep customers safe and advise flight crews on the best way to reach final destinations.
Thunderstorms, hurricanes, snow, icing, wind shear, turbulence and even zone can affect Delta’s operations. But thanks to breakthrough meteorological advancements over the past few decades, the airline’s meteorologists are equipped with the tools they need to provide comprehensive, detailed forecasts.

More here:

http://news.delta.com/deltas-25-meteoro ... eyes-skies

and...

Groundbreaking app helps Delta pilots avoid turbulence

Launched in April, Delta’s Flight Weather Viewer app provides pilots with real-time graphics of turbulence observations and forecasts on the flight deck.

“Delta was able to take advantage of a convergence of affordable technology (e.g. the tablet, much improved weather data and aircraft connectivity) to develop an innovative way for delivering weather to the flight deck,” said Captain Steve Dickson, Senior Vice President – Flight Operations. “This approach allows our crews to make informed decisions for a safer flight, more efficient operation and better passenger  experience.”

The app, developed in partnership with Basic Commerce and Industries (BCI), allows pilots to plug in their flight plan and view where turbulence is and how it’s being encountered on a 3-D color-coded map and 0-100 scale.

More here:

http://news.delta.com/groundbreaking-ap ... turbulence

jfklganyc wrote:

http://nypost.com/2017/09/06/delta-flig ... -and-wins/

when you make the New York Post, a tabloid rag, for being voluntarily "gutzy" and it involves your pilot certificate and an airliner with people on it...you're doing something risky and questionable.

We're not relying on the New York Post to determine what is a proper aviation practice, are we? Because that would be really silly.

jfklganyc wrote:

Again I will ask what if there was a maintenance thing on the ground ? if it was the standard sign off that took an hour? Then what?

what if one of the pilots felt ill? what if one of the flight attendants was injured by a bag falling on her hand during deplaning? what if you go to start the engine and you have low oil pressure or high oil temperature? what if you have a bleed leak or duct overheat?

Then you're in roughly the same boat as you would have been if you'd made the flight a couple of hours earlier (or, depending on how serious the problem or illness was, the day before).

jfklganyc wrote:

as an airline pilot in 2017, in the United States of America,for one of the world's safest airlines, you do not take unnecessary risks without a way out or a backup plan.

It's not a good idea to assume what went on behind the scenes with the flight. We have no idea about that. We have no idea what backup plans Delta had. All we know is that an airplane was sent to land in conditions that it was capable of landing in, it did, and it departed again in conditions that it was capable of departing in.

jumbojet wrote:

mjzair wrote:

Did anyone consider that B6 and AA turned back because their arrivals coincided with an outer band of Irma that was battering the area. The outer band passed and Delta made it in.
.

Then maybe better coordination with their own meteorology teams would have better gotten them in and out? Maybe DL has better meteorological equipment and teams? I am not saying they do but if they made it in and the others didn't than the question needs to be asked, why?
Check out some interesting articles on DL's weather folks and some of the meteorological equipment installed on its planes:

.

Or, as was the case, the weather moved in 2 hours ahead of forecast.

The flight was safe and scheduled. The pilots flew around the weather as allowed and also had a divert plan. If one or more of the bands from Irma would have caused an issue like with the AA flight, a turn around would have occurred.

Let us not forget that AA1420 was flown by a professional crew with professional meteorologists and dispatchers working in the background as well.

Get-there-itis is no good. DL could have gotten a plane from ATL there earlier. DL could have flown in a spare widebody from ATL even, and gotten everyone out earlier.

Count me amongst the dissenters that don't grant points just because the bad thing didn't happen.

D L X wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

You don't know much about airline ops, do you, DLX?

I wrote my masters thesis on airline ops. So yes, I know a little.

One thing I know is that even Delta's operation has slack designed into it because of the regularly occurring adventures of the day.

This wasn't a last minute decision. How many days ago did you learn of Irma? Why would anyone think that Delta just learned of a need to lift people from SJU four hours before they flew a plane down from New York?

Also, this wasn't an extra section. DL302 flies daily. I really don't understand a lot of the comments on here suggesting otherwise.

Fair enough, you wrote a master's thesis, care to quote your experience flying and/or actually managing/ commanding flight operations? Me? 14,000 hours, AF commander, 5 years at EAL flying in SJU often and chief pilot for OEM.

GF

8598033649 wrote:

The flight was safe and scheduled. The pilots flew around the weather as allowed and also had a divert plan. If one or more of the bands from Irma would have caused an issue like with the AA flight, a turn around would have occurred.

Yup. It was all well orchestrated and monitored closely. If there was no way to get in between the bands of the storm, the flight would have diverted to back to the mainland US.